Indian Railways Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2013 20:12

given that only metal ore or metal sheet/rod trains need such giant locos , and that is in our SE quadrant between seaports, mines and metal plants why is it considered key for the delhi-kolkata corridor?

couldnt 3 smaller japani locos be efficiently ganged up to haul the more usual container rakes and goods wagons..this is being done today also...3 of the big WDP locos we have could put out 3x6000hp.

I guess japan will vendor-finance this deal so it has to be japani.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Jun 2013 21:32

If Japan is willing to sponsor for infra in railways and we cannot shore up money from anywhere else or from within the country for all the needed development, we should not ask questions about the 'gifts' as soft loans for using their vendors. If they are going to give us HSR with soft loans, take and run with it. Same with other projects for railways. I am hoping for a 2020 Kochi-TVM HSR realization in the least. Maybe by 2025 if need be.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 05 Jun 2013 21:45

Hmm! I'm pretty sure the western DFC was supposed to be diesel traction to allow proper double stacking of freight. IIRC this was a major difference of opinion that almost derailed the japanese finance. The eastern will be single stack electric.

The largest diesel is the AC6000 from GE, but it has had numerous problems due to the problems of cramming so much diesel power into such a small engine. Not recommended. Simple chaining of 4000 hp units is more than adequate.

The HSR beasts are completely different. Several of the TGV ones have max power draws of 20mwhr+ which means a theoretical max power of 24,000 HP+ !!

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Jun 2013 23:00

Japanese HSR heavy electricals is anyway completely different - the Shinkansen trains were EMUs from the very beginning. and don't have locomotive traction, unlike the French TGV, which does use a locomotive at each end. Freight electric locos would require different motors from EMU based ones, though the Japanese do have experience with such locos thanks to having companies like Hitachi for the technology. May not be off the shelf, but that has not stopped IR before. Even the WAP-5 was, as I recall, a hybrid that used ABB electricals from the Re-46x series Swiss locomotives on a Deutsche Bahn chassis. Worked out fine in retrospect.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2013 07:22

a few posts above, some wiki links to heavy electric freight locos of japani make have been posted. japan imports lot of metal ores for its factories and something is needed to haul them from the ports.

so no problems on that front. japan is thinking long term and making a huge bet here that 25 and 50 yrs from now where is their next big economic partnership going to come from.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 06 Jun 2013 13:21

Singha wrote:a few posts above, some wiki links to heavy electric freight locos of japani make have been posted. japan imports lot of metal ores for its factories and something is needed to haul them from the ports.

so no problems on that front. japan is thinking long term and making a huge bet here that 25 and 50 yrs from now where is their next big economic partnership going to come from.

25 to 50 years from now we will be dealing with aged Japanese people who would have benefited well from their plan of engagement with India. The next layer below them would be middle aged Indians who would have emigrated to Japan. the Japanese sure have planned well for their future where there wont be many of their young.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2013 13:35

>> middle aged Indians who would have emigrated to Japan

there does not seem like any sign they want to relax their tight immigration policy. for sure a lot of indians at various skill levels might want to work and live there if they let us in.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 06 Jun 2013 18:29

Yogi_G wrote: 25 to 50 years from now we will be dealing with aged Japanese people who would have benefited well from their plan of engagement with India. The next layer below them would be middle aged Indians who would have emigrated to Japan. the Japanese sure have planned well for their future where there wont be many of their young.

My reply here:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1466402

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Jun 2013 23:14

is this electrical train good for IR transport role ?

EP-20
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/sing ... amily.html

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jun 2013 11:07

Now, rail link till Katra for Vaishno Devi pilgrims

NEW DELHI: Travel for devotees to the famous Vaishno Devi shrine will become more comfortable with trains expected to go right up to Katra, the shrine's base camp, from August.

Railways is going to open the 25-km Udhampur-Katra rail link in August as work on the difficult route is almost complete.

The national transporter is also working with the state government to integrate permit slips for Vaishno Devi Darshan with the train ticket.

"We are in talks with the Jammu & Kashmir government. The passenger can get permit slips while booking the train ticket," said V K Gupta, General Manager, Northern Railways.

The next step is an evaluation by the Commissioner of Railway Safety (CRS) for approval to run trains up to Katra as safety clearance from the watchdog is mandatory before new route becomes operational, an official said.

Most of the work, except the laying of ballast-less track on a 3.1-km-long tunnel, the most difficult on the route, is almost complete now, Gupta said.

After the commissioning of the new route, pilgrims will be able to reach the base camp of Vaishno Devi shrine at Katra without having to break their journey at Jammu.

An estimated 10 million devotees pay obeisance at the Vaishno Devi shrine annually.

The Udhampur-Katra rail route — to be completed at an estimated cost of Rs 960 crore — passes through hostile terrain, making it an extremely challenging railways project.

The route consists of seven tunnels and 30 small and big bridges, including a 185-feet high tunnel. A total of seven tunnels span over 10 km of the 25-km stretch.

While no decision has been taken yet on the number of trains which will go to Katra, but once the line is operational, any train coming to Uddhampur can be extended to Katra depending on popular demand

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 18 Jun 2013 17:10

Induction cooking systems to help Railways curb pantry car fires

In an attempt to curb incidents of fire that originate in pantry cars, Northern Railway has decided to do away with the conventional resistive coil burners and gas cylinders. Revamping the pantry cars, the Delhi division of Northern Railway has introduced induction-based cooking stoves.

As a pilot project, induction stoves have been installed on the Dibrugarh Rajdhani and will be installed in 26 more trains. This is the first instance of large-scale adoption of induction-based cooking systems in pantry cars. Officials said the induction cooking range is retardant (not readily susceptible to fire) and energy efficient.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Jun 2013 18:53

A part of the tunnel between Udhampur and Katra had collapsed and become water logged.
They have had to redrill / realign the tunnel, hence the delay in starting the Udhampur-Katra leg.

The most difficult part is next, between Katra to Reasi to Sangaldan. This is an engineer's nightmare.
They are tunneling through very loose soil which is prone to collapse. Landslides are very very frequent. They are building the world's tallest bridge here, the Reasi station is half on the bridge!

THIS, is an engineering marvel if any, the Chinese Tibet railway will pale away in engineering difficulty and innovation.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Jun 2013 08:23

A train is seen at the Banihal railway station, 110 km from Srinagar, on Wednesday. The critical Banihal-Qazigund rail section through the Pir Panjal range, scheduled to be inaugurated by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, will make the Kashmir Valley accessible throughout the year.— Photo: Nissar Ahmad - Courtesy: The Hindu

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Jun 2013 11:17

SSridhar wrote:A train is seen at the Banihal railway station, 110 km from Srinagar, on Wednesday.

Beautiful pic. The whole scenery has a distinct "European" look to it. The train also resembles some of the trains I have seen in Germany etc. I dont know why IR cant make more DEMUs and slowly replace the current set of "passenger trains".

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jun 2013 15:46

cost probably and maintainence people will need to check every engine, generator, motor set rather than just the wheel bogies. way too much complexity for indian env imo.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Jun 2013 17:18

Singha wrote:cost probably and maintainence people will need to check every engine, generator, motor set rather than just the wheel bogies.

I have seen DEMUs which only have a driver-cum-motor coach on both ends. The remaining coaches seem to be just the normal coaches. They dont have motor-coaches in the middle.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 20 Jun 2013 18:10

Sachin wrote:
Singha wrote:cost probably and maintainence people will need to check every engine, generator, motor set rather than just the wheel bogies.
I have seen DEMUs which only have a driver-cum-motor coach on both ends. The remaining coaches seem to be just the normal coaches. They dont have motor-coaches in the middle.

MEMUs have multiple units in a single rake with motors. DEMU is the Diesel version of MEMU?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Jun 2013 20:50

BTW that picture is Qazigund not Banihal as noted. Banihal is in a steep valley, up the mountain slope and AFAIK has no railway station. The closest one is Chareel IIRC at the bottom of the valley. Someone more knowledgeable can correct me.

Also the DEMU have no toilets and are Chair car only. Our present style of train travel will not work with this. But yes eventually IR will have to shift to dedicated train sets, chairs car w/ toilet, full A/C for all.

I'm more focused on the Katra extension, more critical IMHO, as finally parts and components can come by rail up to the Chenab valley end.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 21 Jun 2013 09:56

prahaar wrote:MEMUs have multiple units in a single rake with motors. DEMU is the Diesel version of MEMU?

Yes. But I now feel that more than DEMU the word DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is used. MEMU stands for Main Line Electrical Multiple Unit. MEMUs run on normal railway tracks, just like any other passenger train. EMU rakes I guess have some slight modifications, or platforms have to be modified.

The MEMU train which I see often is the SBC-DPJ commuter train. This is a MEMU. It has driver cabin+engine+half a coach for people, then a set of around 4 normal passenger coaches followed by half a coach for people+engine+driver cabin. I have not seen this rake MUed with any other rake, nor its coaches reduced.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 21 Jun 2013 10:08

Sachin wrote:
prahaar wrote:MEMUs have multiple units in a single rake with motors. DEMU is the Diesel version of MEMU?
Yes. But I now feel that more than DEMU the word DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is used. MEMU stands for Main Line Electrical Multiple Unit. MEMUs run on normal railway tracks, just like any other passenger train. EMU rakes I guess have some slight modifications, or platforms have to be modified.

The MEMU train which I see often is the SBC-DPJ commuter train. This is a MEMU. It has driver cabin+engine+half a coach for people, then a set of around 4 normal passenger coaches followed by half a coach for people+engine+driver cabin. I have not seen this rake MUed with any other rake, nor its coaches reduced.

At least the EMU trains in Mumbai have electric motors attached to the undercarriage, usually one EMU coach to form a unit of 3 (W-EMU-W). In this linked video you can see 4 coaches with a pantograph to haul a rake of 12 coaches.

http://youtu.be/dimQXyR-GX0

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 21 Jun 2013 11:44

prahaar wrote:At least the EMU trains in Mumbai have electric motors attached to the undercarriage, usually one EMU coach to form a unit of 3 (W-EMU-W). In this linked video you can see 4 coaches with a pantograph to haul a rake of 12 coaches.

The suburban trains of Mumbai, Chennai and Kolkotha use the traditional concept of EMUs. I.e multiple motor-coaches, in between them are the trailing coaches and and at both ends you have driving-coaches. From what I could make out such trains requires some modifications to be made on the platforms. Or else I guess they would hit the platforms when entering the stations. I remember reading about this when there was some discussions for EMU trains in 100% literate state. Then the picture was more clear - it is going to be a MEMU. These trains had pretty much all coaches to be similar to the passenger rake, but have a mini-electric locomotive (and driver's cabin) at both ends. I guess the entire train has a provision to lay control cables from one end to other.
FAQ on the topic at IRFCA (Bible for IR)

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 21 Jun 2013 13:35

The advantage of having driven coaches, as MEMU trains have, is the gradient that can be successfully tackled increases. Currently IR says that gradient should be 1:100, but with MEMU style coaches this can theoretically be 1:60 or 1:70. With these types of coaches we would not have required to built the white elephant across Chenab that we have currently built. Where if the wind speed crosses 90 kmph the trains will not be allowed to cross the bridge. And funny part is that happens frequently. It is said that the chains strength is determined by the weakest link. Well the Chenab bridge will determine whether the rail link to Kashmir remains truly open 24X7.

The issue is cost, not only acquisition but also maintenance. This is where the German model of having a powerful locomotive at both the ends of the trains wins out. Further it is simpler. The coaches are dumb and are easier to maintain and manufacture.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2013 15:23

why cannot they build a smooth curved composite shape along the sides of that bridge to divert the wind ? even in some skyscrapers this is done to reduce movement toward the top due to wind action. some even have huge "holes" near the top.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 21 Jun 2013 19:08

That is an interesting observation.

The Chenab Bridge is indeed an interesting link. So far wind speeds have not been a major problem during construction. 90 kmph type winds would almost certainly topple the tower cranes on site. But it is possible things will be different once the bridge is built, esp. near the center spans. You cannot add wind baffles later as this will change the loads on the bridge. Suspension bridges are typically delicately balanced structures and the profile of the deck should not be modified without extensive testing. Sometimes you just have to wait and see what the problems are and hope to overcome them. The all tunnel approach would have been interesting but would have also been a massive technical challenge. So either way is hard. There is a reason this was not attempted earlier. Only now does India have the technical ability in house to attempt this project!

WRT access the key period is mid-late winter. This is when 24x7 access to the valley becomes problematic due the high elevation of Banihal Tunnel cause snow/avalanche issues. Winds typically lower at this time, even if they are cold. My bigger question is how they are going to transition from the hot dry plains to cold freezing mountain with the same train set! The 1:100 gradient is set so the train can operate at 100kmph. Otherwise a standard trainset with WDP-4 type beast locomotive can easily tackle gradients to 1:40 or so, at lower 45-60kmph type speeds. Anything above 1:40 will require bankers slowing the entire process down. IIRC there are parts of the western ghats where 1:25 type grades are successfully challenged with bankers, sometimes with WDP-2’s!

In the long run the locomotives at either end must be eliminated as this is wasted passenger space. The trainset could easily handle an additional 200-300 seated chair passengers if the locomotives at either end are eliminated. There is no reason the motive power cannot be in the lower bogie structure across the trainset. The Shinkansens motors are all under slung without a problem for 50+ years.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Jun 2013 05:19

CRS has approved the Banihal tunnel work. Link is now ready to open!

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 24 Jun 2013 19:54

^^^
That is indeed good news. Now I hope that work starts on the Chandigarh-Manali-Leh Line. And please avoid building a Chenab Bridge equivalent on it.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Jun 2013 22:55

Banihal link now open.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/b ... 852785.ece

Normally I avoid comments on a happy day like this but...
Take a look at the the concrete road on bottom right. What the eff were they thinking! Smooth tunnel, perfect rails and then shamu shows up to do concrete work! That thing will fall apart in a couple of years. Classic shoddiness and low skill levels. We got to do better.

saip · Post by **saip** » 26 Jun 2013 23:15

Also the wires on the left hanging like someone threw them on the wall in a hurry.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Jun 2013 14:34

The tunnels across the Pir Panjal Range:

Yellow: Jawahar Tunnel: 2.5 Kms (1.6 mi)
Pink: Banihal Tunnel (Rail): 11.215 km (7 mi)
White: New Road Tunnel: 8.45 km (5.25 mi) Under construction now.

Disregard the black like that google has made of the railway tunnel - that is incorrect.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jun 2013 22:50

theo.. you should where we stand on corruption in infra & RE sector

zlin · Post by **zlin** » 28 Jun 2013 07:44

All indian media claim this 11km long Pir Panjal railway tunnel is asia's 2nd or 3rd longest transportation tunnel. That's so funny. as matter of fact it is not even in the top 30 longest transportation tunnel in Asia. Let alone it's just a single tube. Most of asia's long tunnels (in China and Japan) are dual tubes now for HSR.

http://www.lotsberg.net/data/rail.html

Indian media are so out of touch with reality

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 28 Jun 2013 15:25

Gagan wrote:The tunnels across the Pir Panjal Range:
[img]image-al-tunnels-by-gagan-ullah[/img]
Yellow: Jawahar Tunnel: 2.5 Kms (1.6 mi)
Pink: Banihal Tunnel (Rail): 11.215 km (7 mi)
White: New Road Tunnel: 8.45 km (5.25 mi) Under construction now.

Disregard the black like that google has made of the railway tunnel - that is incorrect.

Gagan , excellent work. Gives a good idea of alignment of the various rail and road links. A suggestion: it would be nice if altitude data can be added to the pic you have posted. Gives an idea of number of piercing the Pir panjal is getting.

Jawahar tunnel : 2194 m ASL
Banihal tunnel : 1,666 m ASL
Chenani-Nashri tunnel : 1200 m ASL

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 28 Jun 2013 19:50

Is that road tunnel really under construction?

Chenani - nashri is under patnitop, no...
Not in this image.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 29 Jun 2013 15:20

Yes Chenani - nashri is not in the pic. Its along 1A. Sorry.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Jun 2013 19:12

The tunnel is indeed under construction. I don't know the official name of this tunnel yet (too lazy to google)

The Chenani Nasri is near Patnitop, near the Baglihar Dam. This will bypass patnitop, Kud, Batote.
Google has updated the images in the northern part near nasri. and the tunnel construction is visible. The images near Chenani are not updated yet.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Jun 2013 20:32

BTW the reason the railway tunnel is so long is to maintain the 1:100 grade which will allow 100kmph runs without banker. For once Railways has planned and set about something with determination.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 29 Jun 2013 22:58

Is there another tunnel in the works for a 2nd line when the traffic esclates? I see no provision for doubling in the current tunnel.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 10 Jul 2013 11:47

rajya sabha TV broadcasting a good programme on kashmir railway.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jul 2013 06:54

how safe are double deckers? i am sure it can't be as fast as regular trains.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 11 Jul 2013 07:31

sai did you see this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJXb1ap7omk
105 kph