INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 30 Jul 2013 00:06

Its classic RAW (who are providing intel cover) disinfo.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 30 Jul 2013 00:12

Bheeshma wrote:Why would anyone announce with big fan fare when a nuke sub is going to go into ocean. It means it long gone on patrol.

It's supposed to go on sea trials not on patrol.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Jul 2013 02:10

ravi_g wrote:
sum wrote:^^ Wasn't this a really old S.Unnithan article from the time when Smt.Kaur was breaking a coconut on a black covered thingie in SBC?
Haan lekin khushi ka izhaar pehli baar hai.

When a nuke sub goes out is there any way to disrupt its signature using some decoy sound signatures?

Yes its explained in a big detail in Dileep ji's Spy Story 2 or 3.....

Read it, its 24 carat gold:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... rn#p905392

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 30 Jul 2013 12:28

also posted in Indian Missiles and Munitions thread

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 30 Jul 2013 20:43

what is the difference between

Cutting Edge

State of the Art

Leading technology

top of the shelf (Chest of drawers)

when describing military equipment, I am often confused which is better

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 30 Jul 2013 20:54

Also looking at the picture and sectional diagram

1) its a steam turbine direct driven propeller shaft through gear box.

what happens if there is interruption in steam production due to emergency situation

1) reactor problem

2) water problem ( pumps valves, pressure vessels, heat exchangers?)

3) turbine problems

why not go the way of deisel electric, like turbine running a generator and electrical driven propulsion with battery back up to surface and do maintenance?

Are there any stand by electric propulsion with a clutch and gear box to disengage the steam turbine aand run for couple of hours on Electric energy?
just some loud thinking

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jul 2013 21:34

I think they would have to do a emergency surface action using compressed air to force water from ballast tanks.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Aug 2013 21:38

Amy,Akulas and other Russian N-subs have an auxiliary propulsion system designed for quiet running.There are two aux. diesels rated at 750 hp for emergency power,but there are also two "creeper" screws ,on either side of the lower hull,which are deployed for stealth.I would venture to suggest that our desi underwater species may have something similar,given the firang input.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2013 06:59

I wonder if the Irbis being talked of as 2nd Akula could accomodate some inclined missile tubes Oscar style in between the inner and outer hull...maybe around 4 on each side to not upset the COG too much. the hull was nearly complete per a photo I saw of Putinji inspecting the shipyard so cutting it up again to insert a "proper" VL section may not be feasible without huge cost and redesign...

the pic is here http://osimint.com/2013/04/25/indias-nu ... ubmarines/

oscar has huge 12 x granit sized tubes on each side....Akula is a smaller sub and we could use 4 x brahmos size tubes on each side
http://www.helmo.gr/gallery2/d/77772-1/ ... OISSES_PMT

with 8 brahmos or nirbhay in these tubes, the entire 40 weapon loadout of the torpedo room could be freed up for more nirbhays if needed or a large complement of heavy torpedoes, mines and ASMs.

the Yasen has used a arihant style of single row huge silos behind the sail, is claimed to have room for 40 klubs though I doubt it looking at this pic. perhaps around 20 using 4 per silo is it...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--39lCT25bY4/T ... .ashx.jpeg

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Aug 2013 19:44

If B'Mos is fitted,using larger tubes for launch would be easier than extensive redesign.Most Akulas have two sets.The space between inner and outer hulls should also be large enough to accommodate the missile,if this option is to be pursued..A weaponload of 40 is considerable.It would be easier for the ATV series to accommodate more silos for a larger weaponload of land attack missiles.See how the Ohio SSBNs were converted into very effective SSGNs.However,this means that we must churn out our nuclear subs at the rate of at least one every year!

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 05 Aug 2013 19:09

Akulas are good for hunting CBGs and blowing them to bits. So when IN hunter killers like Akulas will go to Western Pacific it will have to contend with two forces. One will be PLAN and the other will be the USN led block. It is conceivable for US to give our IN submarines locations to PRC/PLAN/PLAAF under the guise of keeping peace or balance. US has done a similar service for Pakistan on numerous occasions, in the most recent case when Operation Parakram was under way.

The way Akulas procurement is being undertaken it lays bare the following aspects
1) Right now IN has targeted building up its SSBN inventory and not hunter-killer SSN. Assuming that two SSBN are built every two years then we will have to wait for 10 years till the entire construction run of 5 SSBNs fleet is completed. This dovetails nicely with the 10 year lease under which Chakra-II was taken on lease and the current rumours of Chakra-III.
2) IN is looking for two Akulas to have at least one of them on patrol at any given moment of time.
3) These submarines will not see action in Western pacific. For any effective action against PLAN assets, submarines and CBGs, we will need at least 5 hunter killer on the loose in Western Pacific. These Hunter Killers will probably be on patrol in the ocean that bears our name. There is however one intriguing possibility, using Chakra-II and if Chakra-III comes along that too, for surveillance especially for PLAN's SSBN fleet. Due to the nature of Earths topology, we will face threat from PLAN SSBN which will be based in South China Sea. As they are nearer to Peninsular India. And Peninsular India is where India's true strength, i.e. its economic might, is concentrated.
4) India wants to first acquire experience in running hunter killer SSNs. After that it wants to go and induct indigenous submarines. Just like it did for its first indigenous SSBN.

It would have been better if India were to go for a parallel program to build SSBN and Hunter killer SSNs. This way these submarines can complement each other beautifully. Ideally we need SLBMs with a range in excess of 6000 kms. This will allow our SSBN to stay within the cozy confines of Indian ocean and still target the north-eastern part of PRC. In Indian Ocean IN and IAF can provide cover to these SSBNs while our hunter killer SSNs actually go and create havoc on the ports of PRC and on the surface fleet of PLAN.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 09 Aug 2013 23:25

^^^^^ Your explanation needs some explanation
a) It is very difficult to pint point an AKULA in West Pacific. 2 Akulas were operating off the US coast 6 months back and US navy had no clue.
b) If we have Akulas then it is best to operate them near our enemy borders to test their effectiveness and device strategies. Otherwise no point is having them.
c) USN is not crazy to tell PLAN about Indian SSN location. USN doesn't see IN as a threat, infact they are mighty worried about PLAN. They might actually do the opposite, ie. give PLAN sub location to IN.

"US has done a similar service for Pakistan on numerous occasions, in the most recent case when Operation Parakram was under way." Where did you get this info from? please quote the source. I have never seen an article that says US spied on IN and leaked the information to Pakistan during OP Parakraman.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Aug 2013 02:25

Philip wrote:If B'Mos is fitted,using larger tubes for launch would be easier than extensive redesign.Most Akulas have two sets.The space between inner and outer hulls should also be large enough to accommodate the missile,if this option is to be pursued..A weaponload of 40 is considerable.It would be easier for the ATV series to accommodate more silos for a larger weaponload of land attack missiles.See how the Ohio SSBNs were converted into very effective SSGNs.However,this means that we must churn out our nuclear subs at the rate of at least one every year!

Philip. but what about arming the Beriev VVA-14s with Brahmos?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVA-14

Bet you we could pick up a few airframes cheap and repurpose them.

Just kidding Admiral.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 10 Aug 2013 02:56

NEWS FLASH India's first N-sub launched: Nuclear reactor of INS Arihant goes critical.

...ticker on NDTV.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 10 Aug 2013 02:58

Damn, Pranay beat me to it. Yayy !!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Aug 2013 03:10

cool! watch out for high altitude observing devices, space based observations, deep sea devices that would be ever eager to read the signatures of arihant.

titash · Post by **titash** » 10 Aug 2013 03:24

Cosmo_R wrote:
Philip. but what about arming the Beriev VVA-14s with Brahmos?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVA-14

Bet you we could pick up a few airframes cheap and repurpose them.

Just kidding Admiral.

Raste ka maal saste mein

Jokes aside - it was a very innovative design. A purpose built flying boat can be a great ASW platform - no need for air-to-air refuelling; can be topped up and armed by any tanker.

Can anyone elaborate on the specific advantages of ground effect vehicles versus flying boats?

nitinr · Post by **nitinr** » 10 Aug 2013 04:02

oohh.. news is here.. just saw it on ndtv..

congrats to all the ppl involved in this historic feat..

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 10 Aug 2013 04:44

This is a historic moment. Congratulations to you me everybody specially all the people involved in this project.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 10 Aug 2013 05:02

Jai Bhole Nath !

With the blessings of Bhagwan Shambhu nath, Arihant be ready to obliterate the shatroos of Bharatvarsh:

[youtube]5HH0WmUjHMI[/youtub]

Badhaees to BRFites and deshvasis, DRDO, BARC the russian scientists helping. A new chapter in the itihaas of this greatest nation.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Aug 2013 05:38

a BO-5 test from the platform would be like shiva's third opened for a second to inform the evil forces and the dark side bad nations. we have still many long ways to go to get it all operational.. a 6 month mission along the coastal lines and map other signatures should be undertaken as showing the strength sometimes in the near future. we might know, who all are loitering out in the deep. i am sure the khans and chips to an extent should get some tail chases.

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Aug 2013 06:57

Pranay wrote:NEWS FLASH India's first N-sub launched: Nuclear reactor of INS Arihant goes critical.

...ticker on NDTV.

Times of India article on the Arihant’s reactor going critical:

Reactor of India's first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant goes 'critical'

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Aug 2013 08:11

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Aug 2013 08:44

^^That's an old Foxtrot class, maybe the INS Vagli.

Edit: And I see that the dumbasses in TOI are showing the picture of the INS Kursura in Vizag.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Aug 2013 08:56

Krish,nice nostalgic post of a Foxtrot! I remember the first time I went into one,pure claustrophobia! it was nothing like the old Hollywood movies.Nevertherless,served us well.

A great moment for the IN and Indian defence.Congrats to our boffins,the IN and Russian help in the ATV project (some would like to deny this fact!),thankfully acknowledged by the GOI/MOD.The feeling must've been similar for our submariners on the Arihant of that historic day when the USN Nautilus,the world's first nuclear powered sub was underway for the first time and sent out this historic message:

"Underway on nuclear power.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Aug 2013 09:10

I've been advocating flying boats/amphibs for aeons and after years,finally the IN,CG,etc., woke up and are acquiring the same. It looks like the Japanese amphib. is the current favourite.There was a clip on UT on a Soviet flying boat bomber,incredible design,by an Italian emigre Bartini,nicknamed the "Red Baron".

The Bartini A-57 was an experimental Soviet bomber of the mid-1950s that was designed by Robert Ludvigovich Bartini to take-off and land on water. The aircraft was never put into production.

The A-57 was equipped with a lift jet (similar to VTOL aircraft today) facing downward to assist its take-off from the surface of the ocean. It was intended to refuel from submarines out at sea. The bomber had a long, slender delta wing called the Bartini Wing. It was tested in wind tunnels, but the project was scrapped in 1957 before actual production could begin. Possibly because the Soviet Government after the launch of Sputnik 1 believed that the new R-7 ICBM made bombers less required and decided the Tu-95 would do and that the A-57 project was too expensive and that such an aircraft was not needed

Later on the Ekranoplan was developed,which supposedly "rattled Area 51".Here are some amazing pics of this sea monster and its over-fuselage missile launchers.I suppose that this fossil was the Soviet equivalent of Howard Hughes' Spruce Goose! Built,but never saw service.

http://englishrussia.com/2010/03/12/ekranoplan/3/

Today,Beriev,Bombardier,Shin Meiwa all have designs ,in service.These are supposedly beinge valuated by the forces.A few air shows ago,we had the Beriev displaying its fire-fighting capabilities at Bangalore.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 10 Aug 2013 09:17

krishnan wrote:

That's a retired foxy not AHT

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Aug 2013 09:35

yeah, and they put this picture in that article

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2013 09:43

hope defence journos are invited and permitted to release some genuine pics. the prop will surely be hidden under water now.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Aug 2013 10:22

Finally, 4 years after Gagan's great drawings and the single shot of the conning tower, maybe we can see more of this boat.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Aug 2013 10:28

Suraj,the only freely available pics have been the sat one of the Vizag dockyard and the shelter/structure that is hiding the sub.If you examine it closely,it resembles the same type of telescopic modules that is used by the Russians in their yards.The sub will in all probability ingress and egress from the dockyard during the night and that too perhaps underwater if the draught in the channel is deep enough.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Aug 2013 10:51

There are far more decent pics of the Borei class SSBN or even the Yasen class, than that of the Arihant class - all we have of the latter is that single pic from Sandeep Unnithan's article, and that pic of Ms.Kaur breaking a coconut at the bottom of the conning tower in July 2009.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2013 10:54

yes after arihant, the yasen is probably the least pictured sub in the world. no clear pics yet if all her VL cells are behind the sail or some in front also. but pics are there, with the prop masked in cloth wrapping.

its high time we opened the kimono a little and let the world get a peek....deterrence also about letting the world know what is our strength.

or maybe some pics of the aridhaman under construction with a 3rd sub hull nearing completion in the background

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Aug 2013 10:58

There are lots of pics of the Yasen, like this: pic. Nothing like it for the Arihant. We have one crap drawing by Shiv Aroor, one pic by Sandeep Unnithan and a bunch of Gagan's drawings that the whole of the internetz uses now...

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 10 Aug 2013 12:20

Nuclear reactor on INS Arihant goes critical; huge step forward for India's N-triad here

Moving towards completing its nuclear triad, India on Friday night activated the atomic reactor on-board the indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant paving way for its operational deployment by the Navy soon.

Top government sources told NDTV that all systems of the indigenously made nuclear reactor are "go" and the submarine will soon be launched to sea on the Eastern coast.

"We are gearing up for the sea trials of Arihant," the then Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief V K Saraswat had told reporters in May.

Nuclear triad is the ability to fire nuclear-tipped missiles from land, air and sea. After the nuclear reactor is activated, the agencies concerned can work towards readying the warship for operational deployments soon.

According to earlier reports, the DRDO has also readied a medium-range nuclear missile BO-5 for deployment on the Arihant and its last developmental trial was held on January 27 off the coast of Vishakhapatnam.

So far, the US, Russia, France, China, and the UK have the capability to launch a submarine-based ballistic missile.

Though this comes as good news for India's defence capabilities, there is some concern over the overall strength of India's submarine fleet. India has 14 conventional submarines that run on either battery or diesel and are aging and outdated. Each of them will have completed the standard life-span of 25 years by 2017.

The nuclear submarine will help India achieve the capability of going into high seas without the need to surface the vessel for long durations.

Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to come up on surface at regular intervals for charging the cells of the vessel.

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 10 Aug 2013 12:28

Analysis: Now to build two more Nuclear-submarines quicklyHere

With its nuclear reactor going "critical" on Friday night, INS Arihant (Sanskrit for Destroyer of enemies), India's first indigenously developed nuclear-propelled and in the future nuclear-armed submarine has reached a significant landmark. It has certainly taken much longer than desirable.

The project, earlier known as ATV (Advanced Technology Vessel), began way back in 1998 but picked up pace only in mid-2000. In 2009, it was launched by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's wife, Gursharan Kaur, at a ceremony in Vizag, headquarter of India's Eastern Naval Command.

Those associated with the project from its inception will be satisfied professionals today. Indian Navy designers, engineers, scientists of the Department of Atomic Energy, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and most importantly private sector companies led by the redoubtable Larsen & Toubro (L&T) deserve heartfelt thanks from the nation from having achieved the milestone.

In a rare public comment, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has congratulated those associated with the project. He said: "I am delighted to learn that the nuclear propulsion reactor on board INS Arihant, India's first indigenous nuclear powered submarine, has now achieved criticality. I extend my congratulations to all those associated with this important milestone, particularly the Department of Atomic Energy, the Indian Navy and the Defence Research and Development Organization."

Today's development represents a giant stride in the progress of our indigenous technological capabilities. It is testimony to the ability of our scientists, technologists and defence personnel to work together for mastering complex technologies in the service of our nation's security.

"I look forward to the early commissioning of the INS Arihant," Dr Singh said.

That's the next important step. Now that the reactor is a "go" the submarine will make shallow dives, complete the deep diving trials and prepare for the weapon trials of the torpedoes and missiles with dummy warheads to be ready for commissioning. Once at sea, the vessel will be gradually loaded with weapons and missiles. Each test will be conducted underwater for two months or more. This will include the Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM). In the past the Navy has carried out 10 underwater launches of SLBMs code named 'B05' using a submerged pontoon to mimic a submarine. So far the range has been 700 km, while the bigger variant, known as the 'K-4', is designed to hit targets 3,500 km away.

The boat will then be commissioned in to the Indian Navy.

Top government sources indicate it is likely to happen over the next few months.

Like all professionals, the team that brought Arihant to this stage is now focused on the next two submarines in the series being built in the same shipyard. Their aim is to take the indigenous content of the next two nuclear submarines from the 40 to 60 and then to 70 per cent by the time the third submarine is ready for commissioning possibly by 2017. The combined team that has built Arihant is however proud of the fact that its digital control systems are designed completely locally which means no dependence on foreign vendors in this critical aspect.

According to Commodore Ranjit Rai, a former Director, Naval Operations and Naval Intelligence, this project has seen a huge collaborative effort.

Writing in a defence magazine some years ago, he had observed: "A large planning and design office called Akanksha (Hope) in New Delhi, has directed the ATV programme under the current Director General, retired Vice Admiral D S P Verma. Facilities at Vishakapatnam have been built by the DRDO, industry and the Indian Navy with BARC's collaboration with funds and monitoring from the PMO.

"Two Admirals with technical expertise have headed the two large supporting complexes. One is the sprawling Defence Material Department (DMD) at Hyderabad, which collaborates with DRDO labs and BHEL for the heat exchanger turbine propulsion system, and MIDHANI for special steel requirements and other contractors. The large Submarine Building Centre (SBC), tucked behind high walls and barbed wires in the heart of Vishakapatnam, is where the hull was put together in sections provided from engineering and refinery reactor maker L&T. This company is investing heavily in ship building, and already has facilities at Hazira in Gujarat and Mazagon Docks in Mumbai (Bombay).

"Walchandnagar Industries provided the gear box and shafting as it does to Indian Navy's Leanders. Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL), another state-run company, is fitting out the USHUS sonar, radars and the Combat Management System along with Tata Power Ltd which has a tieup with BAE Systems for the control pedestal. KSB pumps and Jindal pipes have also played a significant role. The submarine is coated with rubber anechoic tiles supplied by a rubber vulcanising firm in Mysore to provide stealth qualities."

BARC, which steered the critical nuclear reactor installation programme in 1975, also manufactures and stores India's fission and fusion atomic bombs. It has provided training to Navy's technical officers in submarine nuclear technology.

"The ATV project has also set up a small submarine reactor training complex at Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR), Kalpakkam, near Chennai with facilities to test the 80 MW-plus pressure water reactors before insertion into submarine hulls. The reactor is normally sealed into a 600-ton titanium shell of about 10 metres in diameter.

According to a former Indian Navy nuclear boat Captain with command of INS Chakra, "the nuclear submarine operates like any other under water boat, except that it can stay under water for months and it is imperative that the key members learn to operate the computer controlled nuclear power plant... Each crew member has to be aware of all the possible emergencies including emergency shut down that can take place in the ensconced nuclear reactor."

With two more nuclear-powered, nuclear-armed submarines on their way, this public-private partnership can only get stronger. For the moment though, it's time to savour a major milestone in Indian Navy's journey to becoming a powerful force in India's immediate and extended neighbourhood.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 10 Aug 2013 12:34

Another pic via Sandeep Unnithan

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2013 13:00

The vera of the seven veils striptease continues. Surely if its out there in open sunlight, enemy sats can pick it up.....but the guys whose taxes made it possible ie us are not allowed to see it

For once we are beating the chinese posters who hide behind shrubs to take j20 photos.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 10 Aug 2013 13:29

Lungi Dance lungi dance lungi dance lungi dance. This news couldn't have come at a better time. We even have a song for our LUNGI DANCE

Cheers and congrats to the entire team Arihant. Now looking forward to the new born's photo's..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Aug 2013 13:36

Amitabh wrote:Another pic via Sandeep Unnithan

The quality of build is seen to be believed , The Tiles and Smoothness look quite good