PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

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NRao
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

For the record, so that we all are on the same page when we (tend to) discuss the FGFA:

* Phases:

There have been two phases: Preliminary Design (Contract) (PDC) phase and the R&D phase.

**** The PD(C) phase is complete. I do not know exactly when it started (lazy to dig that info out), but it was completed earlier this year (2013).

April, 2013 :: Fifth generation fighter crosses milestone
“The preliminary design contract (PDC) for the Russian-Indian fifth generation aircraft has been executed,” Russia’s Sukhoi aircraft company announced on Wednesday.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed the $295-million PDC contract in December 2010 with the Sukhoi company, which is responsible in Russia for developing the PAK-FA (perspective aviation complex-frontline aircraft), as the FGFA is called in Russia.
PD is completed, not starting.

IF one is interested the same article provide more info on what the PD phase provided.

**** The next phase is the R&D phase

From the very same article:
“The aircraft design has been fully developed,” Sukhoi said in a press release. “Both parties have agreed upon on the amount and division of work during the research and development (R&D) stage. A contract for the R&D is being prepared. It is to be signed this year.”
This phase was supposed to be signed in 2012, although the above quote flet it would be signed this year (2013). we are already a year late. However, in July, 2013:

Jul, 2013 :: 5th-generation fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost

The general consensus:
Defence ministry sources said the inking of the final design and R&D contract for the stealth fighter has been hit by a huge delay, with Russia also jacking up costs for the futuristic project. "It's very unlikely the FGFA final design contract will be concluded in the 2013-2014 fiscal," said a source.
So, this phase could be 2 years late.

* Associated Costs

From the above cited article, the PD costs India:
The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed the $295-million PDC contract in December 2010 with the Sukhoi company, which is responsible in Russia for developing the PAK-FA (perspective aviation complex-frontline aircraft), as the FGFA is called in Russia.
For the R&D Phase, there is a better cite,m but for the time being:

2010 :: India and Russia Signs Deal to Develop PAK-FA
A direct quote from HAL chief wrote:HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak had indicated to Business Standard on a recent visit to HAL, Bangalore, that the deal was done. “It is in the system for approval,” said Nayak. “The respective work shares have been agreed to by both sides and once we sign the preliminary design contract, we will finish the design in about 18 months. Developing and building the fighter could take 8-10 years, and each side will pay $6 billion as its share.”
This figure has NOT been pulled out of thin air, just to be sure.

Since then the estimates have been reduced to $5.5 billion.

one or two mor eitems of interest:

* Originally the first prototype was supposed to be delivered to India in 2014 (per present CAS) - that to a developed (fully? I do not know) facility in India. with the delay in signing the R&D phase (first was expected in 2012), the delivery of the prototype will be postponed to at least 2016 if not beyond
* Similarly the production, planned to start in 2022, should start - at the earliest - in 2024, if not later
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by kit »

one hopes india would own the IPR for the items it funds for development.Now for the Su MKI india did spend some billions on development/modification costs., how will it recover if many of these are passed on to china via Su 35 ? The UAE has a good arrangement with the french where france pays royalties if any system involving UAE funding are sold to third parties.Also would the russians allow india to mki se the pak fa/fgfa.. would love to see a israeli variant of the HMDS for the FGFA.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Philip »

I think that India has been very wary in sharing details even with Russia for improvements that it has made with the SU-30s.The Russians may have copied the same in principle,but would require the Israelis,French and Indian entities to allow the same in aircraft being built for China.Unlikely.

With the seemingly unstoppable slide of the Rupee,now a 25% devaluation in effect,it is going to be catastrophic for the armed forces who depend upon an approx. 70% in value of defence acquisitions,direct and indirect (components for indigenous systems).Pvt. Indian industry has to be roped in asap as a national objective to rectify the situ.However,in the short term we will have to follow through with essential imports so that the services are in fighting condition.FGFA extra costs will certainly impact upon the number and timeframe of the programme.The sooner issues are sorted out and signed the better.The longer the FGFA and Rafale contract decisions are delayed,the worse the situ.Migs,etc.on their last legs cannot be kept flying with the technical equivalent of "string,glue and goodwill".
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

I think that India has been very wary in sharing details even with Russia for improvements that it has made with the SU-30s.The Russians may have copied the same in principle,but would require the Israelis,French and Indian entities to allow the same in aircraft being built for China.Unlikely.
More than likely. Sukhoi was the system integrator in the very early stages of the MKI.

One of the reasons why IAF and Sukhoi, even today, should be a very good fit for designing any plane. IF there is a foreign vendor that knows the IAF it better be Sukhoi.

Whatever they do for the Chinese they would have done no matter what - Russia after all needs the funds and individuals need them even more than the nation itself. So, from a Chinese PoV it is a perfect storm.
With the seemingly unstoppable slide of the Rupee,now a 25% devaluation in effect,it is going to be catastrophic for the armed forces who depend upon an approx. 70% in value of defence acquisitions,direct and indirect (components for indigenous systems).Pvt. Indian industry has to be roped in asap as a national objective to rectify the situ.However,in the short term we will have to follow through with essential imports so that the services are in fighting condition.FGFA extra costs will certainly impact upon the number and timeframe of the programme.The sooner issues are sorted out and signed the better.The longer the FGFA and Rafale contract decisions are delayed,the worse the situ.Migs,etc.on their last legs cannot be kept flying with the technical equivalent of "string,glue and goodwill".
On devaluation of the Rupee ...................... best thing to have happened to India. India will act only when a Kargil happens. From an action PoV, good it has happened.

On national objective to rectify the "situ" (situation?). Horrible statement. A national objective should have prevented such a situ.

On FGFA extra cost. Gathering info as I post. It does not look good. Russia (not so much Sukhoi I would say) has India by her tail. I do not see a compromise position in this case. Either India pays something to the tune of $ 45-60 billion or nothing for the FGFA - the latter is walk-away situ.

Also noticed that the Russians are proposing to buy some 400 PAK-FAs and expecting to export some 600 more (including 200 to India). That is not much of a deal. Heck there will be a lot more crows out there than that.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Sujata »

I don't understand why India has to pay 30-60 billion for the pakfa jet fighter.It cost the u.s.a 63 billion for F-22 and they own the whole thing. Why can't India just wait until russia puts in it's own money to produces the whole pakfa for international market ,and buy it for 100,000 million dollars.This just doesn't make any kind of business since at all.If russia increases the price does India have to pay? I guess so,and why? It looks like to me they own India ,and lie and steal your money,and India can't fight back because to many government people are being paid off it would seem.

The technology transfer or ownership is a big fat lie, and a joke to reel in Indian money,and it props up people in India of the hype ,and you could brag about it internationally that you make a such a big ,big contribution to the parkfa. Wow look little India the russian business men tells the Indian government of all of the advanced things they will be making for the parkfa.Like the seats, lights on the landing gear,and the programming for the hanger door opening device.Wow,really all that ,Yes little India all that and you only paid 30billion plus to do so.You have come so far ,and I'm very proud of my little India.

India should not invest in the pakfa ,and should wait ,and see how much it will really cost russia to make it alone.The plane might cost 2 times as much as they say it will.If India invest this amount of money they should get some guarantees of paying less than 20% for life time of parts and upgrades,and no selling of this aircraft to china.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Karan M »

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 0b5b37e15c

PAK FA missiles at MAKS

This is all interesting to say the least, because since Day One of stealth in the US a guiding principle has been that stealth gets you close enough to use precise, short-range, low-cost weapons. And here come the Russians, equipping their first stealth fighter -- already fast and high-flying -- with a 1,400-pound ARM that can run out to 245 km at up to Mach 4, and an 1,125-pound, 200-kilometer range AAM.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Philip »

With our effective 25% devaluation of the mighty "Re",approaching 100% from 2008 figs,any firang long term major expenditure is a huge price to pay.On the fiscal issue alone,the MOD.GOI has to review the nation's security issues,taking the entire House into confidence (through parliament's standing committee on defence) .They say war is too serious a matter to be left to the generals,same case with "one (UPA) regime".

More to the point,the IAF must now review their short,med, and long term requirements,in order to sustain force levels and maintain an upward momentum in preserving the tech advantage over the enemy (Pak & China).Therefore,discussing indigenous alternatives would be fruitless given the long gestation time (a leading Russian expert said that it took the world 3 decades to transit from 4th gen to 5th-gen,a min. of 15 yrs, for a 6th-gen aircraft) ,which cannot be factored in with replacing the IAF's inventory.The LCA has its own niche ,replacing MIG-21s. Regardless of skyrocketing prices,we need a 5th-gen aircraft for the same.Having entered into the JV with Russia,how far we are down the line only the two nations know,
any extra costs will have to be studied and aircraft numbers revised or stretched/spread out during the production phase,making it easier on the purse.

The same yardstick then applies for the Rafale.It was earlier estimated to be $10.4+B for 126 aircraft ($20B for 189) when the Re. was approx. $45.That figure is now at least 50% more in Rupee terms and climbing.So the cost of a Rafale,is now 25% more than the earlier est. in crores,if we compare the $ at the old and new rate,approx.$100M per unit.Now that is near to an est. FGFA.Can we afford TOT/production for both types (Rafale and FGFA) at this moment? Secondly,in the offset regime,who in the country are going to be the offset partners in such a volatile fiscal situ? Perhaps we too should take a not out of the USN's CNO,Adm.Greenert,when he said that one doesn't need "luxury" where "bomb truck" will suffice.It does not mean that he or the USN is "dumping" the JSF,only that they may cut their coat according to their cloth and acquire fewer 5th-gen JSFs and more 4++ gen F-8 advanced SHs.Western air forces are looking at this compromise,to have 5th-gen aircraft creating large holes in enemy ADs to allow "bomb trucks" to deliver the business.

Option1.
I've given elsewhere current prices for MIG-29Ks which the IN is acquiring.$45M is a reasonable price for the same.If we need to acquire "bomb trucks" it is one option.Russia too is acquiring more MIG-29s until MIG-35 series production is assured.The aircraft is a cheaper alternative to more Flanker variants.This the keeping numbers happy option.Alternatives like acquiring the Gripen,F-18SH,etc. would be costlier since the MIG-29 type is already in service,69 being upgraded very economically, and the 29K in service too with the IN.

Option 2.
As some have chewed upon , not going in for total TOT for the Rafale,but buying the aircraft and perhaps TOT for key components like the radar,engine,etc.,reducing capital costs.Already doubt has been expressed by Dassault whether Indian industry and HAL can absorb the 50% offsets while we do not possess the tech and production infrastructure for the same.There may be some room for manouevre here.Of course reducing the TOT % will leave us wide open to French spares and support price hikes,but we have lived with the M-2000 all this time haven't we? Reliability and support of French aircraft has not been a serious problem unlike Soviet/Russian aircraft.Can we do so too with the Rafale? I've also given elsewhere the annual cost (reply to parliament) of operating the M-2000 fleet which if I recollect was $80M per year,working out to approx $2M per aircraft. We do not have figs for Indian Rafales so can't throw numbers on the table right now.One article says that for Dasaault,the MMRCA deal is a "do or die" issue for the aircraft's future.Here is an option to make it more affordable from DID .
(http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/fra ... ime-05991/).
That leaves 2 options for the platform.(increasing exports one)

As the British have demonstrated, one way to improve a jet’s affordability is to improve maintenance contracts. In 2008, the French defense ministry’s SIMMAD signed a 10-year “Rafale Care” contract with Dassault that paid for availability and flight-hours, rather than spares and man-hours. The British approach has been to build toward a contract that makes 1 firm responsible for all sub-contractors as well, but in 2012, a decade-long contract between SIMMAD and Thales made it clear that France prefers a set of modular performance-based contracts instead.

..the French approach has several years of data behind it, that kind of future cost certainty could be helpful on the export front.
That would be timely, because after over a decade of failure, exports may offer the program a second ray of hope. Rafale versions were picked as the preferred choice in India’s MMRCA competition, may be about to win in Brazil, and have reportedly been offered to Kuwait, Malaysia, Oman, and Qatar. They were also re-offered to the UAE, to replace their Mirage 2000-9s.
Option 3.
A similar case for the FGFA.Go back to the screwdriver (get screwed.. just joking guys!) deal,reduce % of one's stake.This is exactly what "allies" of the US have been doing with the JSF."!st,2nd and turd class" variants for partner nations depending upon their stake in the partnership. Since HAL wants to drop "30% of their 50% " share of dev. work on the FGFA,for a variety of reasons,there could be some cost cutting here.However,we have to judiciously see "how much bang we get for our rapidly depreciating buck",vis-a-vis acquiring 4++ gen TOT (Rafale) and 5th-gen TOT (FGFA).A similar maintennce/flying hr. contract can be worked out with Sukhoi as shown above for the Rafale.

Option4.
Advancing the indigenous UCAV programmes.This is a long term option,it does not satisfy the need for "sustaining the IAF;s inventory and air dominance capability",but when viewed in the perspective of 2025-2030,a vital one.Our DRDO chief and foreign analysts have mentioned the growing need worldwide for UCAVs,weapons of choice these days,and the USN hopes to field its X-47B before the decade is out.Well known US analysts,Norman Friedman has written a piece "Man vs Machine" in a professional journal.Summing up the issue,he says that the carrier UCAV could resemble a "re-usable Tomahawk missile".In an era where "nearly all targets are designated by ground operators surrounded by intelligence data,how much do the pilots who attack the designated systems add?"
Now this echoes APJAK's statement of a few years old,about us needing a "re-usable missile".The DRDO chief has mentioned hypersonic qualities,the X-47B due to its stealth profile is not,but it can carry roughly the same payload internally as manned equivalents.Friedman says that the F-35 JSF was conceived as a low-cost attack bomber,but during dev. a lot added to make it more survivable and pilot aids,like cameras which can make him look "through the aircraft downwards",etc.However,adding all these extras for the pilot has made it "the most expensive aircraft programme in history".But viewed in the momentum of the RMA which is upon us,no alternative but to develop our own UCAVs.Those advocating the AMCA could take a look at this option which could enable us to leapfrog manned 5th-gen types earlier.Regardless of the current shortfall,this is a vital long term requirement that should be supported to the hilt.

Option 5.
Acquiring in the interim extra SU-34s,dedicated LR tactical/limited strategic bombers,apart from MKI upgrades.With or without some of the options above. This would satisfy the strike requirement,plug a definite gap in our dedicated bomber capabilities,and being a variant of a type already in service and in series production (approx. 150 for Russia planned/ordered,eventually to replace all SU-24s),would also be a cost-effective alternative to the Rafale,meant for strike.Certainly a cheaper option.Also able to carry B'Mos and poss.Nirbhay (?),which the Rafale cannot do.
Full details at DID (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/rus ... ers-02595/)
RIA Novosti put the plane’s mission simply: “The Su-34 is meant to deliver a sufficiently large ordnance load to a predetermined area, hit the target accurately and take evasive action against pursuing enemy planes.” Other reports have gone further, stating that the plane is also meant to be able to handle enemy fighters in aerial combat. Given its base platform characteristics, it would likely match up well in the air against many of America’s “teen series” aircraft.
Wik gives a low unit cost at just $34M,seems inaccurate.it should be at least the cost of an upgraded SU-30MKI planned for the IAF.AKA told the House in 2012 that upgrade costs (AESA radar,BMos and Nirbhay integration ,Novator K-100 "AWACS killer" local manufactue,An upgrade of earliest 80 Su-30MKIs involves equipping them with stand-off missiles with a range of 300 km.) would be approx. "$2B". $50M an aircraft for the first 40.The Q remains whether the Indian "Super Sukhois" approximate SU-34 capabilities or not (they don't have the loo meant for LR ops!).If they are somewhat similar,acquiring more SS's would be an interim option rather than acquiring/manufacturing the Rafale in the earlier planned concept.

Anyway,these are some of the options I felt that could be debated as we keep our fingers crossed on the Whoopie's health.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Philip »

In addition to Karan's quote from Sweetman's MAKS report,here are some comments on his report.
andrei_sh

US stealth fighters do use short-range weapons simply because their weapon bays are too small to take larger weapons due to their cumbersome S-ducts inner layout. The PAK-FA takes large weapons because it CAN take them. Thats it.
Report Abuse

Well, simple logic tells that if the PAK-FA can take a large weapon internally, then surely it also can take a greater number of smaller shorter range weapons.

The Russians have long been obsessed with shooting down blue-team AWACS. By definition, an AWACS is the one target where stealth gives you least advantage as it has the best radar. If the AWACS can pick up small-RCS targets at 100nm range, then ideally you want your anti-AWACS missile to have a longer range than that.

As an aside, has there been any sign of progress on the Novator K-100 and Kh-31/YJ-93 programmes that were taken up by the Indians and Chinese as anti-AWACS missiles?

X-Planes

True, the T-50 performance was not as impressive as the Su-30's performance, as seen on the first half of this video below. But then again, the Flanker has been in development for decades, while the T-50 is still essentially an advanced prototype. Given that, I wouldn't say it was "tame".

Amazing performance by the Su-30, from video start to 1:18.
T-50 formation at 1:18
T-50 inverted corkscrew? 1:28
T-50 cobra at 2:14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5wgyMwOGo
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Sujata »

philip nice long response. How many post are you going to try and bury so people don't see the truth?No reason in debating anything with you because you don't care for India in the first place.Even if proven wrong you will just post more high volume responses that don't mean anything.You bury post by posting long responses so that people can't see them as the pages get bigger and bigger.Out of sight out of mind.

I don't understand why India has to pay 30-60 billion for the pakfa jet fighter.It cost the u.s.a 63 billion for F-22 and they own the whole thing. Why can't India just wait until russia puts in it's own money to produces the whole pakfa for international market ,and buy it for 100,000 million dollars.This just doesn't make any kind of business since at all.If russia increases the price does India have to pay? I guess so,and why? It looks like to me they own India ,and lie and steal your money,and India can't fight back because to many government people are being paid off it would seem.

The technology transfer or ownership is a big fat lie, and a joke to reel in Indian money,and it props up people in India of the hype ,and you could brag about it internationally that you make a such a big ,big contribution to the parkfa. Wow look little India the russian business men tells the Indian government of all of the advanced things they will be making for the parkfa.Like the seats, lights on the landing gear,and the programming for the hanger door opening device.Wow,really all that ,Yes little India all that and you only paid 30billion plus to do so.You have come so far ,and I'm very proud of my little India.

India should not invest in the pakfa ,and should wait ,and see how much it will really cost russia to make it alone.The plane might cost 2 times as much as they say it will.If India invest this amount of money they should get some guarantees of paying less than 20% for life time of parts and upgrades,and no selling of this aircraft to china.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by kuldipchager »

Sujata

Post subject: Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

PostPosted: 29 Aug 2013 20:58



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philip nice long response. How many post are you going to try and bury so people don't see the truth?No reason in debating anything with you because you don't care for India in the first place.Even if proven wrong you will just post more high volume responses that don't mean anything.You bury post by posting long responses so that people can't see them as the pages get bigger and bigger.Out of sight out of mind.

I don't understand why India has to pay 30-60 billion for the pakfa jet fighter.It cost the u.s.a 63 billion for F-22 and they own the whole thing. Why can't India just wait until russia puts in it's own money to produces the whole pakfa for international market ,and buy it for 100,000 million dollars.This just doesn't make any kind of business since at all.If russia increases the price does India have to pay? I guess so,and why? It looks like to me they own India ,and lie and steal your money,and India can't fight back because to many government people are being paid off it would seem.

The technology transfer or ownership is a big fat lie, and a joke to reel in Indian money,and it props up people in India of the hype ,and you could brag about it internationally that you make a such a big ,big contribution to the parkfa. Wow look little India the russian business men tells the Indian government of all of the advanced things they will be making for the parkfa.Like the seats, lights on the landing gear,and the programming for the hanger door opening device.Wow,really all that ,Yes little India all that and you only paid 30billion plus to do so.You have come so far ,and I'm very proud of my little India.

India should not invest in the pakfa ,and should wait ,and see how much it will really cost russia to make it alone.The plane might cost 2 times as much as they say it will.If India invest this amount of money they should get some guarantees of paying less than 20% for life time of parts and upgrades,and no selling of this aircraft to china.



Are you dreaming that USA spend $60/-B dollars on F 22.USA spend more then 4 times the amount of Pak fa spend. Thats why pak fa cost 1/3 the price of F22.
F 22 only USA will have, not even British can have. WE are lucky that we are the part of Pak fa fighter.We might not get everything we wants but we will get something that we can upgraded with time in future.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Philip »

Sujata,I truly am amused that you see my post as an attempt to "bury" the "truth".I assume you mean that the FGFA JV is a turkey,whatever.Nothing could be farther from it.In fact,I've spelt out the truth of the situ right from the beginning by saying that with the crash of the Re. We are truly in sh*t street with a regime that has lost the plot,lost its way and lost its grey matter too .If it can't think straight on the economy,how will it be able to think straight in military matters? So we attempt to do some thinking for it,outside the box and look for answers,options and solutions in a fast changing scenario.My long post,is an attempt to look at the overall picture from different angles,not just a single aircraft acquisition..Can we afford our beauties earlier planned for ? Air forces worldwide are cutting down on their defence forces,including the US,and re-examining the mix of for their requirements legacy aircraft and future fighters.This is the essence of my post.

Our priorities have to be listed.Force inventory vs force capability.Rolls Royces or humbler wings that can't do all the tricks,but do the business too at cheaper cost.Where do we rate acquiring a 5th-gen fighter,5th-gen tech in the scheme of things? It appears to me that given the pace at which China is developing its own stealth bird,plus the fact that the US,which already has the F-22 in service and is hoping to acquire a large amt. of F-35s,even for its allies,means that to stay "with the pack" technology wise we have no alternative but to rate it as top priority.As an evolution from the Sukhoi family of Flankers,it offers the IAF an easier transition from 4++ Flanker variants,upgraded MKis which will incorporate many 5th-gen features incrementally.Therefore commonsense determines that the decision to enter into a JV for the same was correct.If one just lists out the specs/tech that the FGFA/Pak-FA is expected to possess,it is clear that it will give us a quantum leap over 4++ gen fighters.In fact,it will possess exceptional BVR and close combat capabilities;LR missiles to deal with AWACS,LR threats,plus a variety of close combat missiles for dogfighting.

The Q has now arisen at what cost? We want certain India specific changes to be made (40) ,which naturally will have a bearing on the cost.HAL appears to be unable or unwilling to carry out its 50% share of dev. work for whatever reasons it has,like developing the HTT-40 basic trainer (which the IAF does not want) that exists now only on paper.perhaps it really is better suited to that job,as it lacks enough designers,from the good Air Cmde's article. So either we bite the bullet and arrange for funds for the programme,or as I've listed out look for alternatives and options.Reduce the % of our stake,lesser numbers and/or stretched production.The prudent decision would be to first acquire the basic FGFA/T-50 that will be produced for Russia (with minimum India specific changes) that will simplify production and keep the cost per unit almost the same as Russian orders,while incorporating the fully loaded version at a
later date.No diff. in how we are going about the LCA's induction.

The Rafale acquisition is also vital,given the PRC threat.120+ Rafales gives us a lot more than 120+ M-2000s.But do we need to also acquire both 4++gen tech and 5th-gen tech? Yet again how many Rafales can we afford in the current eco crisis? That's why the Sukhoi options have been mentioned,and if its capable and cost-effective med. sized bomb trucks are needed,then the MIG-29K equiv. is available.

UCAVs like the 5th-gen tech are essential for the future,dev. can't be slowed down,though the mix of manned and unmanned aircraft cannot be determined until UCAVs are flying or in service.

The LCA has its own niche,it should remain undisturbed ,pushed as much as poss. so that when the MIG-21s start retiring,they've done yeoman service serving us for 50+ years,we will have their replacements ready at hand.

Therefore the IAF has to review its situ and think innovatively.The threat scenario is changing by the day,worsening in fact,putting even more pressure upon the services.If we look at just the PRC threat,we need to be able to strike deep into the heart of Tibet and China using a 5th-gen bird and other options.One report says that right now a team is in Russia for another upgrade of Kilos to extend their life even more.Desperate times call for desperate measures.Though the IAF is not in desperation unlike the IN with its sub fleet.It is in a crisis and we have to explore all the options even if some appear radical and take quick decisions.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by pragnya »

consider this -

1. India's entry into the PAKFA project (2010) is 15 years late (started in early 90s).

2. PAKFA is flying since 2010.

4. 'FGFA has been dropped' meaning whatever HAL could have done in terms of designing a 2 seater version is gone!!

3. hence IAF's observation - "India (HAL) is not/can't contributing anything" - is spot on.

5. it is going to be a system integration exercise with some indian systems. may be some others. sounds like SU 30MKI?? indeed. :)

conclusion - India (HAL) learns nothing from this.

what can be done given India's economy and Rupee over the roof?? IMO -

cancel the JV. buy the PAKFA as 'deep TOT' (similar to SU 30MKI) program and bring down the number of units to 5 squadrons - about 100. we can buy more if things improve on the economic side.

same wrt Rafale, bring down the numbers to 5 squadrons (100) with 'deep TOT'. again we buy more if things ease.

both of the above to be based out of N/NE.

order 4 squadrons of LCA 1 at augmented production rate (avg - 12-14/yr) from this year end - post IOC. this would coincide with LCA 2 being ready for prod. 7/8 sq of LCA 2 should be decent.

boost investment in the AMCA. involve ADA/HAL/IAF right from the design stage so that there is no confusion, name calling, passing the buck by either wrt requirements, capabilities, timelines, import components etc...

MOD needs to ensure adequate funds at each required stage.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by niran »

Sujata wrote: I don't understand why India has to pay 30-60 billion for the pakfa jet fighter.It cost the u.s.a 63 billion for F-22 and they own the whole thing. Why can't India just wait until russia puts in it's own money to produces the whole pakfa for international market ,and buy it for 100,000 million dollars.
because the 63 billion for F22 was in 20th century Dollar, the 30-60 billion dollar for PAKFA is 21st century Dollar. your Angalaise
proves you can look up/calculate the appreciation of Dollar since 1990 when the first prototype of F22 began flying and 2010 when
PAKFA began flying. that means your saying that it would be better to wait and buy it for 100,000 millions is just hogwash.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by vishvak »

21st century also means lack of Iraqi oil for 2 decades, petroleum-specific sanctions on Iran, wars, invasions etc- that kept prices of various commodities and petrochemical products high along with reduction in oil resources.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

India to customise Russia's FGFA planes

The Indian version of an Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter plane is going to be lighter weight, more powerful and less visible to enemy radars that the original Russian version, according to a senior executive at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

Under a joint project with Russia to build a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) India will modify and customise the prototype Russia has developed independently.

“While the Russian version of the FGFA is all-metal, ours will have wings and empennage (vertical and horizontal stabilisers) made of composite materials,” said S. Subrahmanyan, Managing Director of MiG Complex at HAL.

“The use of composites will reduce the plane’s weight and give it lower signature. Our version will also have more advanced Indian-made avionics,” Mr. Subrahmanyan told The Hindu at the Moscow Air Show-2013. He is leading a HAL delegation to the biannual air show being held this year from August 27 to September 1.

“Thanks to these improvements we will get a better and more powerful platform,” Mr. Subrahmanyan said.

The FGFA is going to be India’s biggest and most ambitious defence project and the largest joint venture with Russia. Earlier this year the two sides completed the preliminary design of the FGFA and are now negotiating a detailed design contract. Mr. Subrahmanyan said he hopes the contract could be signed before the end of the current year.

Four Russian prototypes of the fifth-generation fighter, codenamed T-50 or PAK-FA, have performed more than 200 test flights since January 2010. The Russian Air Force plans to begin inducting the plane in 2015.

HAL is to get three Russian prototypes for re-design and testing in 2015, 2016 and 2017, and will hand over the first series produced aircraft to the IAF in 2019, Mr. Subrahmanyan said.

The FGFA project will take the Indian expertise in aviation technologies to a much higher level.

“We’ve moved from license production and technology transfer to co-design and co-development,” Mr. Subrahmanyan said. He pointed out that India supplies avionics for Su-30 Russia is building for Malaysia and Indonesia.

“Co-design offers far greater scope for knowledge sharing compared with license production. In co-design projects all Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) are jointly held by parties involved,” Mr. Subrahmanyan added.

India is currently working on two co-design defence projects with Russia – the FGFA and the Multi-role Transport Aircraft, which is already in detailed design stage.

With the West, India has so far had only one co-design project – the Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv, developed with assistance from Germany’s MBB.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by vishvak »

Great! Also one could say that failure is worse - relatively speaking and also for image - than not trying out options. So GoI/HAL must always keep in mind aims. Also failures at key/necessary points seem to look the worst - relatively speaking. This is why perhaps that info of version 5 and 6 is good along with idea of 7 and probably 8 too as mark of continuity.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Sujata »

kuldipchager ,niran: here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor
I was off a couple of billion at 66.7 billion so sue me.

Also they delayed the program 7years before they started production,and mismanaged it.The YF-22 was a weak design ,and they spent 7 years redesigning it to come close to the YF-23.With the limited numbers of 187 instead of 700+ the per cost increased for each plane.

"F-22 production was split up over many subcontractors across 46 states, in a strategy to increase Congressional support for the program.[28][29] However the production split, along with the implementation of several new technologies were likely responsible for increased costs and delays.[30] Many capabilities were deferred to post-service upgrades, reducing the initial cost but increasing total project cost.[31] Each aircraft required "1,000 subcontractors and suppliers and 95,000 workers" to build.[32] The F-22 was in production for 15 years, at a rate of roughly two per month."[33]


http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 546489.xml

“Let’s be clear: the HAL-Sukhoi program isn’t a joint effort,” says an IAF officer with Bengaluru-based Training Command. “The airframe will be identical to the ones the Russians currently have in flight test. Our decision to go with a single-seat configuration is principally to avoid potential time overruns that will almost certainly be part of designing such a configuration. The maximum that HAL will do is insert a few systems of our choice and play lead integrator for the ‘MKI,’ if you will. Therefore, it is imperative that India look ahead and begin developing technologies and platforms like the AMCA. We cannot forever be a buyer of aircraft that are conceptualized, designed by others, and simply assembled or license-built here.”

"Sensitive stealth technologies will not be shared by foreign technology companies.”


For 30 billion dollars of 20 century or 21 century it's still 30 billion dollars ,and you don't even get 50% partnership which India should get at that price.You will not get a discount for the spare parts that will jack up the price even more!!! India should get a Huge discount on spare parts and upgrades,but it's not going to happen.

I would wait ,and see the final Price of the pak-fa. If India is going to be the biggest buyer of the plane then as a Big customer you can configure how you want to order the pak-fa any which way you want.It's like you have it back wards in the way you are buying this jet fighters.The russians say we need India as a partner ,and you will be able to add subsystems,and learn a couple things in building it and that's all.Wow for 30 billion that's all you get vs wait and see the finished product and then you can order it they way you want it at retail price.Why spend at that money and you are not a Full partner ,and won't get a major discount on spare parts and upgrades.What are the guarantees that the price wont go up,and because India has invested so much that you wont be able to get out of the deal,and spend even more just like the INS Vikramaditya situation.

Austin= All the things they report about the extra stuff that makes the fgfa better then the pak-fa is just hype.Do you think the russians will make a better plane for India instead of russia.Does India get 50% TOT or 25% of TOT? No,and it looks to me that India is a major funder,but you don't get all of the benefits of putting 30+ Billion of "21 century dollars" into it.

I know that as a partner you get some kind of discount ,but for that kind of money that India is putting into the pak-fa program their should be bigger discounts and guarantees ,and penalties if the russian don't live up to their part of the deal.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Philip »

We’ve moved from license production and technology transfer to co-design and co-development,” Mr. Subrahmanyan said. He pointed out that India supplies avionics for Su-30 Russia is building for Malaysia and Indonesia.

“Co-design offers far greater scope for knowledge sharing compared with license production. In co-design projects all Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) are jointly held by parties involved,” Mr. Subrahmanyan added.
From the latest HAL quotes from MAKS,it is clear that our side clearly knows what it wants in the FGFA JV and what it wants to develop.It is debatable about how much we will get out of the deal,but the key part is the IPR rights,where exports of the fighter and its profits will be shared by both sides.The example where Indian avionics,etc. is in Sukhois for ASEAN orders is significant.We've also provided support and training for Malaysia.India could become the Asian hub for FGFA exports and support in the future.It is definitely a quantum leap forward .

However,what is now required is a strict adherence to deadlines and costs,unlike with the LCA.Here,one has far more confidence because Russia is leading the programme and will not be allowed to fail or experience large delays in induction given the thrust and focus of the Russian govt. under Putin,which is determined to revamp its once famed aviation industry,that has had large success with Sukhoi-27/30 performance and sales.The share of development work by India/HAL needs the same strict project management so that our version will arrive as planned and within budget.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

Except for moving the first prototype from 2014 to 2015, nothing new in that article.

Disappointing that they have not addressed the Russian price hike issue - which this person tangentially refers to ("hope" to get it signed by this year end). How far they land from the earlier estimates of $5.5 billion per partner is crucial.

One thing is clear from this article FGFA > PAK-FA (from what India wants).

Also, I just hope Russia does nto take away from what India develops and makes money out of that. India needs to tie down details of IP.
Here,one has far more confidence because Russia is leading programme
I hope not, that would certainly dilute the purpose of a "JV". There needs to be a happy compromise between the delivery of the plane and Indians gaining from the project. The prior would be great, the latter a necessity. Not an easy task.

____________________________

Just BTW, for what it is worth, we need to remember that the engine will come in 2020, the radar is still Russian and so is the design of the airframe. Outside of the composites, most of it still seems like a system integration effort. Good Make that Great for the IAF and should keep HAL "busy".
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Still Pictures of PAK-FA from MAKS

http://aviator-ru.livejournal.com/364094.html
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by niran »

Sujata wrote:kuldipchager ,niran: here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor
I was off a couple of billion at 66.7 billion so sue me.

Also they delayed the program 7years before they started production,and mismanaged it.The YF-22 was a weak design ,and they spent 7 years redesigning it to come close to the YF-23.With the limited numbers of 187 instead of 700+ the per cost increased for each plane.
interested in debate about history? AdMs please to forgiving for this OT history.

The F-22 Raptor was developed in response to a USAF studies conducted through the 1970s on new fighter concepts. By the early 1980s, following several generations of paper studies conducted by aerospace contractors, the USAF had decided to focus on development of an "Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF)" and issued a request for proposals for such an aircraft in May 1983.

The ATF was intended to be a next-generation air superiority fighter, designed to stay ahead of advanced Soviet aircraft and missile designs then presumed to be in development. The USAF requirements asked for the tidy integration of a wide range of new technologies in an aircraft that was to be relatively inexpensive to operate and easy to maintain.

New technologies considered included advanced cockpit automation and sensors; built-in test and support equipment; high reliability and low maintenance to ensure combat availability; stealth features; and "vectored thrust", One particularly important requirement was for a "supercruise" engine, making the ATF "faster on the draw" and improving the range of the munitions.

From seven contenders, the choice for the company to build the ATF was finally narrowed down to two: Lockheed, partnering with Boeing and General Dynamics; and Northrop, partnering with McDonnell Douglas. Each team was awarded a 1980 era $691 million USD contract on 31 October 1986, initiating a 50-month "demonstration and validation (dem/val)" phase.

During dem/val, the two companies were to build two prototypes each. Lockheed designated their aircraft the "YF-22A", while Northrop designated theirs the "YF-23A". The two examples for each prototype were to have different engine fits, one powered by a pair of Pratt & Whitney (P&W) F119 engines, and the other by a pair of General Electric (GE) F120 engines. Both the P&W and GE engine types were specifically designed for the competition in a parallel "Joint Advanced Fighter Engine (JAFE)" effort.

The USAF wanted to buy a total of 750 ATFs. The US Navy also considered the type as the "Naval ATF (NATF)", with "swing wings", and at one time estimated they would need 550 such aircraft, but soon changed their minds on the NATF. The Navy was committed to the development of the advanced F/A-18E/F Hornet fighter, and feared that involvement with the F-22 would be a diversion of effort that could lead to political confusion, putting the F/A-18E/F program at risk.


The Northrop contender for the ATF contract, the "YF-23A", was officially rolled out first, on 22 June 1990, and made its initial flight on 27 August 1990. The aircraft was informally named the "Black Widow II", in memory of Northrop's P-61 Black Widow night fighter of World War II.

The Lockheed design, the "YF-22A", was rolled out on 29 August 1990, and first flew on 29 September. The aircraft was given the informal name of "Lightning II", after the famous Lockheed P-38 Lightning of World War II, but the name didn't stick.

The YF-23A met USAF requirements for survivability, supersonic cruise, stealth, and ease of maintenance. However, the YF-22A was more maneuverable than the YF-23A, and won the competition in April 1991. Another factor was that the YF-22A was also seen as more adaptable to the Navy's NATF, though as it turned out the Navy abandoned NATF a few months later.

While the YF-22A won the competition, giving the green light for the "engineering and manufacturing development (EMD)" phase of the program, the program did have obstacles to overcome. The main underlying cause of the uncertainty was the end of the Cold War, which greatly reduced the perceived military threat faced by the United States and called into question the need for highly sophisticated and expensive new weapons.

In 1990, US Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney lowered the planned production rate of the F-22 from 72 per year to 48 per year. The program continued to be whittled down, with the total production reduced from 750 to 648 in 1991, followed by a cut to a total of 442 in 1994. At this point, Lockheed began to feel the pinch between development costs and expected revenues. One Lockheed official, the late Ben Rich of the Lockheed Skunk Works, commented: "The sad truth is that our stockholders would have done better financially if they had invested ... in CDs."

Although the ATF had been originally intended as an air superiority weapon, in 1994 a modest secondary attack role was added to help protect the program. Despite such protective measures, the two-seat F-22B was canceled in 1997, and the total buy of F-22s was further reduced to 339.

The program still continued more or less on track. The first true F-22 prototype, more imaginatively designated the "Raptor", was rolled out at the Lockheed Martin plant at Marietta, Georgia, on 9 April 1997. There were numerous problems with the prototype, including software bugs and fuel leaks, and first flight was delayed to 7 September 1997. The second prototype first flew on 29 June 1998.

However, the pressures on the Raptor didn't go away. In the summer of 1999, faced with rising costs for maintaining military readiness and the burden of extensive military operations in the Balkans, Iraq, and elsewhere, the US House of Representatives moved to defer funding for the F-22. That led to a nasty political squabble, with one House appropriations committee staffer commenting: "The Air Force sent 25 guys up here to brief us on the need for the F-22 program, and they didn't impress us one damn bit." The Air Force managed to prevail in the debate, providing convincing arguments for their need for an "Air Dominance Fighter", as the F-22 was described.

By the summer of 2008, 122 F-22s had been delivered. By that time, the perception was increasingly that the Raptor wasn't exactly the right tool for the "dirty little wars" of the 21st century(uh!oh!). It had been designed to counter fourth-generation Soviet air superiority fighters that never materialized,(it materialized in 2010 but by then it was too late for yef22) and though the Air Force wanted some insurance against the day when such a threat did appear, given the demands of existing struggles against insurgents and terrorists who had no air power at all, there was only so much insurance that made sense. In early 2009, the decision was made to end production after delivery of 187 machines, with the last Raptor rolled out in late 2011. you see all is dollar related onree,
currently USA no have dollar so 187 F22 onree, India have Dollar so 60 billion or 120 billion in the year 2015 is chump change onree for India :mrgreen:
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Too much of speculation of FGFA cost when no deal has been signed till date.

So far we have not spent a single penny on the program except to send HAL folks to Russia for Training and right now the PD phase is still ongoing and once it gets finalised and final configuration of FGFA is agreed then we will have some figures on FGFA prototype cost , post flight testing program and building FGFA according to Indian spec and certification of the same , we move into Production phase and depending on the number IAF/MOD wants to procure we will get unit cost of FGFA.

Till date PAK-FA is funded by Russian MOD , Sukhoi own money and loans procured by Sukhoi from bank which are then paid by MOD at later day , R&D Phase , 1st Stage Engine Program and building prototypes cost around $10 - 11 billion. Parallel 2nd stage engine program has started and is funded by Russian MOD.

We are yet to see any figures from MOD on MMRCA program ,for a fighter that already in service of the host country , still the entire program number , TOT , Lic Production cost etc is yet to crystal out ...........speculation has been from $10 billion to $20 ..but its all speculation pulled from thin air.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Karan M wrote:http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 0b5b37e15c

PAK FA missiles at MAKS

This is all interesting to say the least, because since Day One of stealth in the US a guiding principle has been that stealth gets you close enough to use precise, short-range, low-cost weapons. And here come the Russians, equipping their first stealth fighter -- already fast and high-flying -- with a 1,400-pound ARM that can run out to 245 km at up to Mach 4, and an 1,125-pound, 200-kilometer range AAM.
I just saw those pictures closely it should give an idea on Weapons Bay size
http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0 ... 4.Full.jpg

Assuming each bay can carry Kh-58UShE type of weapon each of 1,400 pound , then it can 4 of this type in its weapon bay with 2 SRAAM on the internal bay near the wings.

Similar weapons would be the LRAAM RVV-BD , 4 of that plus 2 SRAAM R-74 type.

I suspect with FGFA being lighter with more generous use of composite , it will have impact on the range i.e more range or similar range but higher payload. The test pilot of PAK-FA once mentioned that the internal fuel of PAK-FA was more than 11 T compare that with internal fuel of Su-35 at 10T , one can easily bet FGFA will outrange the Su-30MKI easily.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by pragnya »

i would have been happy if HAL was part of the JV as an equal partner in all aspects of design, manufacturing, engine (?), radar (only these could have helped future India) and marketing but that is not the case because of india's late entry into the project. it was pretty well known even before that HAL hardly any contribution in the whole project but for some IAF specific customisation/integration of mutiple systems including Indian. now these things have been done by HAL wrt Jaguars, Mig 27s, SU 30MKIs etc.. there is nothing they gain by doing the same in this case.

similar is the case - with more 'composites' being used in the wings/empennage of the PMF. the geometry is still the same!! honestly what is the gain here?? agreed some weight reduction. but how much?? is it 'so significant' that the russians could not even fathom?? in any case IAF 'will not' allow any changes too considering the testing/certification/timelines/inductions etc.. so what is the new learning here particularly when HAL has done it on the LCA already?? add to that IAF has dropped the 2 seater version taking away whatever HAL was supposed to do in the first place!!

begs a question. what is the purpose of this JV?

it is highly doubtful that HAL will gain even in terms of patents when there is hardly any contribution by them!! it would be ridiculous to even think of such a possibilty. russians will 'laugh' at such a suggestion!! for all tom tomming and sundry, IAF may - in future, even opt for some direct import to save on delays/citing threats (they did it with SU 30MKIs)!! what then??

so in a nutshell, this deal is a farce to say the least.

i don't blame the russians at all. considering the mammoth costs involved, naturally 'risk mitigation' is an obvious choice for them.

While it is true as Austin said - no money has been spent by India so far in the PAKFA project - it is also true by all accounts - agreement signed in 2007 to cooperate in a jv, PD agreement signed in 2010 - that the follow on agreements may be signed in the coming days. GOI/IAF/HAL need to analyse the whole thing and stop this. in the case of GOI atleast the present state of economy/Rupee's bullrun should give a heads up. they can put Rupees instead of dollars into the AMCA program which is what will give India what it desires.

however we still need the PMF which is why i said in the last post - strike a 'deep TOT' deal for a 5 sq PMF (more added later if things improve) similar to SU30MKI deal, which is what the JV is in reality. Russians would not mind because money will flow their way anyway.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

The Indian version of an Indo-Russian fifth-generation fighter plane is going to be lighter weight, more powerful and less visible to enemy radars that the original Russian version, according to a senior executive at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
Less visible is nice, but I wonder if they plan on making it all aspect stealth. For that to happen the new engine will have to contribute in a meaningful way. News items on the engine would be neat to read.
The FGFA is going to be India’s biggest and most ambitious defence project and the largest joint venture with Russia. Earlier this year the two sides completed the preliminary design of the FGFA and are now negotiating a detailed design contract. Mr. Subrahmanyan said he hopes the contract could be signed before the end of the current year.
MoD has assembled a team to look into the recent price hikes that the Russians seem to have proposed for the second phase. That is TBD, but the reports coming out from that area feel that the team would take a good part of 2014 to decide if the escalations are justified.
Four Russian prototypes of the fifth-generation fighter, codenamed T-50 or PAK-FA, have performed more than 200 test flights since January 2010. The Russian Air Force plans to begin inducting the plane in 2015.
Wish India was part of this phase - it was/is critical in the learning process.
HAL is to get three Russian prototypes for re-design and testing in 2015, 2016 and 2017, and will hand over the first series produced aircraft to the IAF in 2019, Mr. Subrahmanyan said.
Redesign of very limited parts - mostly software. The base aircraft will remain as is, with a lower weight.
The FGFA project will take the Indian expertise in aviation technologies to a much higher level.

“We’ve moved from license production and technology transfer to co-design and co-development,” Mr. Subrahmanyan said. He pointed out that India supplies avionics for Su-30 Russia is building for Malaysia and Indonesia.

“Co-design offers far greater scope for knowledge sharing compared with license production. In co-design projects all Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) are jointly held by parties involved,” Mr. Subrahmanyan added.
Again, all this is true, btu for some parts only. The base aircraft, radar, engine are still screw-driver driven. (Just saying - not a knock.)
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by VishalJ »

BR Tower has just been buzzed by three SEX Machines from MAKS 2013 Image


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Philip »

Those pics are splendid.I like the camouflage paint job.

Some Qs though:

From latest reports the foll. schedule has been given to us.First prototype in 2015,next 2016,next 2017.First series production aircraft in 2019.OK,read around 2020,when we get the first series prod. aircraft.Now is this to be the India specific one or the std. Russia air force model? There is some ambiguity here.Since the aircraft is already flying in Russia,design work on the India specific model can actually start from next year.So is the India specific (IS) model also going to be the 3 prototypes mentioned,incrementally equipped with IS components?

What rate of production from 2019/2020 for IS models? What date for formation of first sqd.? The 144 aircraft planned,will they all be IS models or will we first operate Russian std. FGFAs and then later on IS ones?

Now these aircraft do not appear to be replacements for any type in service,or do they? If so which?
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

T-50-2 MAKS 2013 performance at MAKS 2013

http://youtu.be/b7kP7_vViSk
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Indranil »

That's amazing. Post stall maneuvers already!
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by pragnya »

Austin wrote:T-50-2 MAKS 2013 performance at MAKS 2013

http://youtu.be/b7kP7_vViSk
classy stuff, beautiful machine. none to beat the russians when it comes to acrobatics!!
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

T-50 and Components ( High Res )

http://bastion-karpenko.ru/t-50_maks-2013/
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by member_23694 »

any opinion on the engine exhaust fumes from T-50 compared to F 22.
It seems from the images and videos that the T-50 engine smokes a lot more compared to F 22 and thus probably needs further improvement for 5th gen level.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Garooda »

Not sure if these were posted.

Aviationist_Image_1
Aviationist_Image_2
Last edited by Garooda on 04 Sep 2013 19:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

Garooda,

Yes they have been.

Also, please provide URLs for such large pictures - you can edit your post to do so. They cause major problems for people with slow internets.

Thanks.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by SaiK »

wonder what they have progressed on the skins for the rear?
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Garooda »

NRao wrote:Garooda,
Yes they have been.
Also, please provide URLs for such large pictures - you can edit your post to do so. They cause major problems for people with slow internets.
Thanks.
Ok. I posted the links. On which page are the images posted? I searched already.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

Garooda wrote:
NRao wrote:Garooda,
Yes they have been.
Also, please provide URLs for such large pictures - you can edit your post to do so. They cause major problems for people with slow internets.
Thanks.
Ok. I posted the links. On which page are the images posted? I searched already.
Do not know exact page (I do not follow the PAK-FA as closely as a few others do), but would suggest looking at what Austin has posted. IIRC it is from one of his MAKS 2013 posts.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Philip »

MAKS revealed that the FGFA will have a large internal weapons bay able to house LR AAMs 125km+.Other revelations were stealth coatings for the engine and its components.More improved engine on its way.Ainti-stealth LR radars were also displayed.

Here is one little piece of info about US R&D,though 6 months old,worth posting.

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... ruary52013

Laser tail gunners: DARPA seeks to use laser weapons to defend aircraft from rearward attack
January 22, 2013
By John Keller
Editor
GTON, Va., 22 Jan. 2013. Laser experts at Lockheed Martin Corp. will move forward with flight tests of a futuristic laser weapon system designed to protect combat aircraft against attacks from the rear under terms of $9.5 million contract modification awarded this month from the U.S. Defense Advanced Research projects Agency (DARPA) in Arlington, Va.

The contract is for the third phase of the DARPA Aero-Adaptive/Aero-Optic Beam Control (ABC) program to improve the performance of high-energy lasers on tactical aircraft against enemy aircraft or missiles in the aft field of regard.

Laser weapons experts at the Lockheed Martin Space Systems segment in Sunnyvale, Calif., will flight test an active flow control turret mounted on a business jet to validate turret requirements, design, and predicted performance of ABC technology the company developed in the second phase of the program.
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The ABC program will optimize flow control for pointing angles behind tactical aircraft, as well as exploring how to synchronize ABC flow-control technology with adaptive optics.

On the current contract modification, Lockheed Martin engineers will design representative optical paths, a scaled turret, and flow control actuator system, conduct wind-tunnel testing, and mount a prototype aircraft laser-defense weapon to the test aircraft.

Adaptive optics involves manipulating the shapes of lenses and mirrors to enable high-energy laser weapons to compensate for the effects of atmospheric turbulence.

Lockheed Martin will do the work in Sunnyvale, Calif.; Fort Worth, Texas; and Orlando, Fla., and should be finished by fall 2015
vic
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by vic »

pragnya wrote:
begs a question. what is the purpose of this JV?
JV is beautiful vehicle for (i) Single Vendor, (ii) non-tender, (iii) non competitive, (iv) open ended priced (v) import (vi) with practically no Indian input (vii) hardly any technology absorption (viii) limited manufacturing value addition (ix) inflated commissions, bribes, swiss accounts etc
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