West Asia News and Discussions

[Singha]

We must remember colin powell and many others lied blandly infront of the UN and many other forums on iraq wmd. There was no wmd and nothing was ever found . Later it was floated that hey it was a lie, but removing saddam needed such a crutch to go in.
If anyone noticed, 71 people died in baghdad alone through car bombs this week.

Usa used agent orange and other nasty stuff in vietnam. Zero repurcussions. There was a pgm on tv, they have now restored relations and are working out some means to bring incontaminated soil into a hot pit, where after few weeks the chemical is supposed to become inert. They showed school of kids who had been born with defects. The effects flow through generations.

[svinayak]

So you think the US government is lying to the US people and the world?



Brihaspati ji how dare you mistrust the US administration? Don't you know they are the epitome of truth and honesty!

Have you forgotten:

Weapons of Mass Destruction - Eyeraq - Saddam Hussein .....
Weapons of Mass Destruction - Eyeraq - Saddam Hussein .....
Weapons of Mass Destruction - Eyeraq - Saddam Hussein .....
Weapons of Mass Destruction - Eyeraq - Saddam Hussein .....



Still you want to check from other sources?

Brihaspati ji, How can you criticize US and its policies. Didnt we discuss this before.
You should not even think about this at all. Even a little bit.


Did you not go the school for thought control
Repeat after me

We don't need no educationÂ
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

"Wrong, Do it again!"
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
"You! Yes, you behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"

[brihaspati]

If you are not saying anything against them - are you not then by your logic an excuser of war crimes?

No sir, the people making excuses for war criminals are those ignoring the huge body of evidence that shows with a high degree of confidence that the crime of murdering 1,400 people with chemical weapons was committed by the Assad regime's forces.

Again, repeating the question - who among the opponents of the Assad regime is free of accusations of war crimes? The problem lies in the so-called "huge body of evidence". We are no longer sure, given the amount of disinformation - both purely in terms of media campaigns as well as planting of supposed evidence, on possibly both sides.

Again, very matter of fact-ly - we need to see the concrete evidence from their supposed sources, and verify them. Since there is also a similar "huge body of evidence" of similar claims about chemical weapons being in the possession of Saudis and of their being supplied to the islamist fronts, whether directly by interested Aarba state parties or channelized through third parties or intel for future deniability.

The US government report says:

We have a body of information, including past Syrian practice, that leads us to conclude that regime officials were witting of and directed the attack on August 21

If your conscience rests easy with reading the above and concluding that the world should not take action against Assad, then so be it.

If you think the government of the country you live in are comprehensive liars and are fabricating an excuse to thump a blameless regime, then so be it too.

I will respectfully but strongly disagree.

No regime is blameless. If mere allegation of blame was admissible for punitive strikes - US gov institutions also publish reports on India from time to time with rounds of "blaming" various state institutions for all sorts of atrocities and abuses, and by your faithful defence of your logic - should lead to justifiable punitive military strikes on India. Same should go for various accusations leveled against the US, UK, and the French gov's and their functionaries - about committing or abetting war-crimes or human rights abuses. Some of these accusations have been taken up for pursuit by organizations very much within the "western" zone.

If there are very "western" "experts" who do not believe the official claim, whom do you really want to please by your statement of overwhelming loyalty?

Here is a line from Haaretz
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.542849

Western experts on chemical warfare who have examined at least part of the footage are skeptical that weapons-grade chemical substances were used, although they all emphasize that serious conclusions cannot be reached without thorough on-site examination.

Dan Kaszeta, a former officer of the U.S. Army’s Chemical Corps and a leading private consultant, pointed out a number of details absent from the footage so far: “None of the people treating the casualties or photographing them are wearing any sort of chemical-warfare protective gear,” he says, “and despite that, none of them seem to be harmed.” This would seem to rule out most types of military-grade chemical weapons, including the vast majority of nerve gases, since these substances would not evaporate immediately, especially if they were used in sufficient quantities to kill hundreds of people, but rather leave a level of contamination on clothes and bodies which would harm anyone coming in unprotected contact with them in the hours after an attack. In addition, he says that “there are none of the other signs you would expect to see in the aftermath of a chemical attack, such as intermediate levels of casualties, severe visual problems, vomiting and loss of bowel control.”

Steve Johnson, a leading researcher on the effects of hazardous material exposure at England’s Cranfield University who has worked with Britain’s Ministry of Defense on chemical warfare issues, agrees that “from the details we have seen so far, a large number of casualties over a wide area would mean quite a pervasive dispersal. With that level of chemical agent, you would expect to see a lot of contamination on the casualties coming in, and it would affect those treating them who are not properly protected. We are not seeing that here.”

Additional questions also remain unanswered, especially regarding the timing of the attack, being that it occurred on the exact same day that a team of UN inspectors was in Damascus to investigate earlier claims of chemical weapons use. It is also unclear what tactical goal the Syrian army would have been trying to achieve, when over the last few weeks it has managed to push back the rebels who were encroaching on central areas of the capital. But if this was not a chemical weapons attack, what then caused the deaths of so many people without any external signs of trauma?

http://www.euronews.com/2013/08/21/expe ... rom-syria/

As videos of an alleged chemical attack in Syria were shown to the world, some experts cast doubt on their authenticity.

Stephen Johnson is an expert in weapons and chemical explosives at Cranfield Forensic Institute. He said there were inconsistency among the patients’ symptoms.

“There are, within some of the videos, examples which seem a little hyper-real, and almost as if they’ve been set up. Which is not to say that they are fake but it does cause some concern. Some of the people with foaming, the foam seems to be too white, too pure, and not consistent with the sort of internal injury you might expect to see, which you’d expect to be bloodier or yellower,” Johnson said.

Johnson said that although much of the video showed injuries consistent with trauma to the nervous system, it was too early to conclude that it was from chemical weapons.

“At this stage everyone wants a ‘yes-no’ answer to chemical attack. But it is too early to draw a conclusion just from these videos,” he added.

[Johann]

Johann, the British government, by virtue of being an irrelevant third (heading for fourth) rate power, have the luxury of watching from the sidelines. Secretly, I bet Cameron is pleased as punch that Miliband got him out of a tricky situation. Cameron can tell Obama and Sam Cam, "look, I tried my best, but that bloke Miliband has no principles and went back on his word."

...So why was Cameron arguing for the motion? Because he misread the poll numbers? Because he doesn't want to be popular? Because the government can obviously afford another costly war?

Statesmanship calls for doing whats right, even if it is unpopular.

As Miliband is prepared to abide by this crime of 1,400 people being murdered by the Assad regime without doing anything, he has nil moral and diplomatic capital to his name. Basically he blew his chance to do what was right.

As a matter of fact, Cameron is not a particularly good political operator - he didn't expect *30* Tories and 9 Lib Dems to defect and vote with Labour on the issue. This would never have happened under Maggie Thatcher, or even John Major. Its made him look terribly weak within the Conservative party as its leader, and within the coalition government, the country, the EU and the world as Prime Minister. It would have cost him far less to either have used his whip effectively, or if he couldn't maintain party discipline, have a quiet word with the Obama and Miliband earlier, and switch to a purely non-combatant support role to avoid the vote. This was the worst of all worlds for him

Nor is Cameron someone who has come to be respected as a particularly ideologically clear or consistent politician when it comes to anything. He's flipped and flopped all over the place - the foreign secretary William Hague on the other hand has been clear and consistent in his stance on Assad. He's been the driving force on the issue amongst the Tories. People like Paddy Ashdown have been powerful voices on the Lib Dem side. Cameron himself is an empty shell.

Your idea of the 'right thing to do' for Miliband, Labour and the UK -launching a bunch of missiles- is hardly the only possible route principle could take. Milliband has argued since 2010 that the key measure for intervention should be the physician's motto of 'first do no harm,' respecting democratic consensus, and being clear about British national interests. That gives him plenty of capital both at home and abroad. He's said no to one poorly thought out military operation - the question of intervention may yet be revisited, and if the plans and circumstances are sensibly aligned, who knows.

In the meanwhile chucking a few cruise missiles at Assad is simply not going to stop the atrocities in Syria, nor is it even the most valuable and effective act of symbolic solidarity with the victims. I hope you can understand that - most others do.

[Manish_Sharma]

If you think the government of the country you live in are comprehensive liars and are fabricating an excuse to thump a blameless regime, then so be it too.

No no the US admin can't be liars and fabricators of lies, as we all know........

Weapons of Mass Destruction - Eyeraq - Saddam Hussein .....
Weapons of Mass Destruction - Eyeraq - Saddam Hussein .....
Weapons of Mass Destruction - Eyeraq - Saddam Hussein .....
Weapons of Mass Destruction - Eyeraq - Saddam Hussein .....

[brihaspati]

I approach ME purely from what I think are Bharatya interests. I am one of the open supporters of preservation and extension of Israeli influence in ME because of a cold calculation, that it draws Muslim jihad to a greater and parallel second front and thus divides Arab expansionist designs against Bharat.

Since Saudis have consistently sponsored Pakis and indirectly the theologian networks that have accelerated their growth in Bharat, while establishing alliances and key supply lines with China that also benefit Pak - I am opposed to the Saudis and associated Gulf Sunni emirates.

The fact that these two might have joined hands against Syria - in its turn does not put me in a dilemma. In this case, Syria is a target of the Sunnis and Saudis - and even if this goes against a section of Israeli interests, since Saudis represent the larger threat given the wider potential islamist power base that the Saudi and Saudi leaning Indian muslim clergy can call upon, I support the failure and frustration or delay of Saudi moves against Syria.

Assad in thsi case - atrocious or not - has no value for me. I would be glad to see Saudis frustrated and bleed resources and credibility. I had celebrated Gaddafi's elimination against the prevailing sentiment on the forum - because he had both the means, as well as the inclination to use the Kashmir issue against India as shown increasingly in his last years.

People get confused because they do not have their loyalty priorities straight. If the preference ordering is Bharat >> India >> to all else, decisions and stands would become crystal clear.

PS. I support and appreciate many aspects of US, [apart from the space given to fight on free speech] and one primary reason being it supports Israel, which in turn I support to exist and flourish - as long as such flourishing does not jeopardize Bharat itself. Therefore, in a choice between USA and a third country over support for Israel - I will go for USA. In this case, continuance of Assad in power does not show immediate connections to existential threats for Israel, while it does irritate and bleed the Saudis. Hence I would wish the conflict to draw out.

[Johann]

We must remember colin powell and many others lied blandly infront of the UN and many other forums on iraq wmd. There was no wmd and nothing was ever found . Later it was floated that hey it was a lie, but removing saddam needed such a crutch to go in.

Powell desperately hoped he wasn't lying. One of the reasons Powell left the administration was his anger once it became clear to what extent his international credibility had been damaged when no WMDs turned up. and the extent to which Cheney and the Neocon hawks in the DoD were responsible for putting him in such an untenable situation.

Powell was also the only person at a cabinet/principals level who actually gave Bush 43 good advice on Iraq - 'you break it you buy it', as opposed to George Tenet and his 'slam dunk' claims.

The reality was that Saddam wanted the Iranians to think he still had CBWs to maintain deterrence against them, and the NeoCons were happy to believe him. Just like Samuel Huntington and Osama Bin Laden are on opposite sides but both are equally to believe the clash of civilisations thesis. The hard men on both sides need each other to justify their importance.

[Johann]

In this case, continuance of Assad in power does not show immediate connections to existential threats for Israel, while it does irritate and bleed the Saudis. Hence I would wish the conflict to draw out.

This conflict does not bleed the Saudis, it feeds the jihadis.

Full scale NATO intervention in Bosnia ended the huge Saudi funded jihadi training camp that the war afforded. Early NATO intervention in Kosovo prevented the international elements from showing up and setting up shop.

Early intervention in Syria would have been the best course of action, before the radicals got in. Now its a bloody swamp that no one really wants to wade into.

I'll be the first to say this publicly, but at the rate things are going the Syria-Iraq theatre is going to become the next, and perhaps largest theatre for US counter-terrorism drone operations.

[habal]

US response in Syria has nothing whatsoever to do with Chemical weapons, but as means to support and boster 'rebels' especially the Al-Qaeda affiliated Al-Nusra faction, who are being attacked by FSA rebels as well. These Al-Nusra rebels are Saudi assets, and the US is under tremendous pressure from Bandar & associates to give air support to this specific group of rebels.

When you have a specific video in which Patraeus or some US General himself confirms plans to attack 7 countries in next 5 years. What is there to debate ? There is no debate.

US Stand: It's actual meaning

Assad used chemical weapons on his citizens: We are desperate to support our guys in Syria, without which there can be no further support from these guys on future campaigns. They can now hold-out only for a few months more. Bandar will be so pissed at us for ditching him. We so need his support to take out more countries.

[Vayutuvan]

^^^
So you think the US government is lying to the US people and the world?

Yes, no, and a definite may be .

"Ap kA kyA sOch hain kI" UK government is lying to the UK people and the world? We are all ears, Sir. "bOliyen, bOliyen".

[anmol]

It makes PERFECT sense for Assad to use chemical weapons after Obama drew that red line. /s


----
Some old articles:
1)From ANI/Yahoo News

US 'backed plan to launch chemical weapon attack on Syria, blame it on Assad govt': Report
By ANI | ANI – Wed 30 Jan, 2013

London, Jan 30 (ANI): The Obama administration gave green signal to a chemical weapons attack plan in Syria that could be blamed on President Bashar al Assad's regime and in turn, spur international military action in the devastated country, leaked documents have shown.

A new report, that contains an email exchange between two senior officials at British-based contractor Britam Defence, showed a scheme 'approved by Washington'.

As per the scheme 'Qatar would fund rebel forces in Syria to use chemical weapons,' the Daily Mail reports.

Barack Obama made it clear to Syrian president Bashar al-Assad last month that the U.S. would not tolerate Syria using chemical weapons against its own people.

According to Infowars.com, the December 25 email was sent from Britam's Business Development Director David Goulding to company founder Philip Doughty.

The emails were released by a Malaysian hacker who also obtained senior executives resumes and copies of passports via an unprotected company server, according to Cyber War News.

According to the paper, the U.S. State Department has declined to comment on the matter. (ANI)

2) Archive of article from Daily Mail that was taken down

U.S. 'backed plan to launch chemical weapon attack on Syria and blame it on Assad's regime'

Leaked emails from defense contractor refers to chemical weapons saying 'the idea is approved by Washington'
Obama issued warning to Syrian president Bashar al-Assad last month that use of chemical warfare was 'totally unacceptable'

By Louise Boyle

PUBLISHED: 14:16 EST, 29 January 2013 | UPDATED: 18:17 EST, 29 January 2013

Leaked emails have allegedly proved that the White House gave the green light to a chemical weapons attack in Syria that could be blamed on Assad's regime and in turn, spur international military action in the devastated country.

A report released on Monday contains an email exchange between two senior officials at British-based contractor Britam Defence where a scheme 'approved by Washington' is outlined explaining that Qatar would fund rebel forces in Syria to use chemical weapons.

Barack Obama made it clear to Syrian president Bashar al-Assad last month that the U.S. would not tolerate Syria using chemical weapons against its own people.
According to Infowars.com, the December 25 email was sent from Britam's Business Development Director David Goulding to company founder Philip Doughty.

It reads: 'Phil... We’ve got a new offer. It’s about Syria again. Qataris propose an attractive deal and swear that the idea is approved by Washington.

'We’ll have to deliver a CW to Homs, a Soviet origin g-shell from Libya similar to those that Assad should have.

'They want us to deploy our Ukrainian personnel that should speak Russian and make a video record.

'Frankly, I don’t think it’s a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous. Your opinion?

'Kind regards, David.'

Britam Defence had not yet returned a request for comment to MailOnline.

The emails were released by a Malaysian hacker who also obtained senior executives resumés and copies of passports via an unprotected company server, according to Cyber War News.

Dave Goulding's Linkedin profile lists him as Business Development Director at Britam Defence Ltd in Security and Investigations. A business networking profile for Phil Doughty lists him as Chief Operationg Officer for Britam, United Arab Emirates, Security and Investigations.

The U.S. State Department had not returned a request for comment on the alleged emails to MailOnline today at time of publication.

However the use of chemical warfare was raised at a press briefing in D.C. on January 28.

A leaked U.S. government cable revealed that the Syrian army more than likely had used chemical weapons during an attack in the city of Homs in December.

The document, revealed in The Cable, revealed the findings of an investigation by Scott Frederic Kilner, the U.S. consul general in Istanbul, into accusations that the Syrian army used chemical weapons in the December 23 attack.

An Obama administration official who had access to the document was reported as saying: 'We can't definitely say 100 per cent, but Syrian contacts made a compelling case that Agent 15 was used in Homs on Dec. 23.'

Mr Kilner's investigation included interviews with civilians, doctors, and rebels present during the attack, as well as the former general and head of the Syrian WMD program, Mustafa al-Sheikh.

Dr. Nashwan Abu Abdo, a neurologist in Homs, is certain chemical weapons were used. He told The Cable: 'It was a chemical weapon, we are sure of that, because tear gas can't cause the death of people.'
Eye witness accounts from the investigation revealed that a tank launched chemical weapons and caused people exposed to them to suffer nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, delirium, seizures, and respiratory distress.

The symptoms suggest that the weaponized compound Agent-15 was responsible. Syria denied using chemical weapons and said it would never use them against citizens.

Speaking to Pentagon reporters at the time, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said his biggest concern was how the U.S. and allies would secure the chemical and biological weapons sites scattered across Syria and ensure the components don't end up in the wrong hands if the regime falls, particularly under violent conditions.

Government forces and rebels in Syria have both been accused by human rights groups of carrying out brutal warfare in the 22-month-old conflict, which has claimed more than 60,000 lives.

A spokesman said that the U.S. joined the international community in 'setting common redlines about the consequences of using chemical weapons'.

pic of that email

[brihaspati]

Johann,
early NATO intervention simply turned the previously dubbed "terrorists" like the KLA into "freedom fighters" with the freedom now to expand the mosque and dawa networks. Note that islamist institutions have been increasing their tentacles and hold on the entire Serbia-Kosovo zone, and the Saudi finance+theologian line has not dried up. Instead its doing pretty well under the radar.

By finishing off the Serbian opposition to Islamics - NATO provided a space of independent sovereignty for ME islamists now to spread and their own "nation" as a foothold in Europe.

[SSridhar]

This US claim that 'Assad gassed' is notoriously closer to the claim of 'Saddam's possession of WMDs'.

[habal]

Indian politicians should shudder at such images



‏@codepink
.@JohnKerry calls Assad a "dictator" and "thug", yet he's had no problem dining with Assad! http://bit.ly/175kual pic.twitter.com/8mckdxDeKC

[anmol]

More:

[habal]

Is that gentle war-monger lady Nancy Pelosi ?

It seems she just can't wait and is getting ornery by the minute.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/n ... 96065.html

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi pressed top administration officials Thursday night to take military action to punish Syrian President Bashar Assad in response to reports that he used chemical weapons in his nation’s ongoing civil war.
“It is clear that the American people are weary of war. However, Assad gassing his own people is an issue of our national security, regional stability and global security,” Pelosi said in a statement after the 90-minute conference call with members of the National Security Council and 26 high-ranking lawmakers.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/n ... z2dWTXfNXy

all cliches covered .. good

Sometimes BRFites wake up and wonder, from where did the Pakis learn their jargons like 'nuclear flashpoint', 'poverty ridden', 'south asia', 'help both sides to emerge from poverty', 'India's caste system', 'Hindu nationalist', 'help liberal voices in Pakistan' ... heh har har .. just copy their masters. They brand the enemy first to neutralize their impact of their trauma on global stage.

[ramana]

Yes its Pelosi with Assad.

[member_27444]

So did Nancy change position or Assad is found in new position?

Johann >> Wasn't Syria a paradise before badar and west meddling, compared to N Korea and back stabbing TSP but that didn't matter I guess

[habal]

Nancy is now on top & screaming for more.

[Yayavar]

Obama had opposed WMD based Iraq bombing and got the Nobel prize. Now, the laureate believes he should attack on a similar 'WMD' pretense(reality?) -what does the Nobel committee think now, I wonder.

[member_27444]

Obama had opposed WMD based Iraq bombing and got the Nobel prize. Now, the laureate believes he should attack on a similar 'WMD' pretense(reality?) -what does the Nobel committee think now, I wonder.

It's new rule

Wage war to win peace (prize)

[habal]

this is a pic taken by a New Orleans resident 27-8-2013 on mass amounts of M-1Abrams & Bradelys on the Huey P. Long train bridge most likely headed to New Orleans port to be put on transport ships to the middle-east ?

[niran]

Key US intelligence findings
- Attack on 21 August killed 1,429 people, including 426 children
- Syrian military chemical-weapons personnel were operating in the area in the three days before the attack
- Satellite evidence shows rockets launched from government-held areas 90 minutes before first report of chemical attack
- 100 videos attributed to the attack show symptoms consistent with exposure to nerve agent

the bolded sentences, to prove that Nerve Gas exposure sign and symptoms is different from the video
this is from the holiest of holy book of medicine "Harison&Harison"

Clinical effects of nerve agent exposure are identical for vapor and liquid exposure routes if
the dose is sufficiently large. The speed and order of symptom onset will differ Exposure of a patient to nerve agent vapor, overwhelmingly the more likely route of exposure
in both battlefield and terrorist scenarios, will cause cholinergic symptoms in the order in
which the toxin encounters cholinergic synapses. The most exposed synapses on the
integument of the human are in the pupillary muscles. Nerve agent vapor easily crosses the
cornea, interacts with these synapses, and produces miosis, described by Tokyo subway
victims as "the world going black." Rarely, this also can cause eye pain and nausea. Exocrine
glands in the nose, mouth, and pharynx next become exposed to the vapor, and cholinergic
overload here causes increased secretions, rhinorrhea, excess salivation, and drooling. Next,
toxin interacts with exocrine glands in the upper airway, causing bronchorrhea, and with
bronchial smooth muscle, causing bronchospasm. This combination of events can cause
hypoxia.

in proper Angalaise Nerve Gas attack == lotsa body fluid flowing out of the body through eye,nose
and collecting in the lungs where by renendering the lungs unable to breath and the patients dies,
not as the people without any secretions as shown in the videos.
the facts are mine, pliss to be making your interpretations.

[member_20317]

this is a pic taken by a New Orleans resident 27-8-2013 on mass amounts of M-1Abrams & Bradelys on the Huey P. Long train bridge most likely headed to New Orleans port to be put on transport ships to the middle-east ?

This many tanks! looks like the nerve agent was an afterthought.

[Baikul]

I wonder if the US will try a 'decapitation strike' on Assad himself, a one -and -done deal after which they can then retreat with their echendee intact. Assuming it's successful, that is.

[Johann]

So did Nancy change position or Assad is found in new position?

Johann >> Wasn't Syria a paradise before badar and west meddling, compared to N Korea and back stabbing TSP but that didn't matter I guess

Amy,

The first and foremost responsibility for militarising this conflict goes to Bashar al-Assad, who in 2011 chose to wage total war on his own people rather than accept political change.

I was in Syria in the summer of 2010. The regime was allowing more free speech and free movement, and that was a cause for optimism among Syria's young people.

But that is a delicate moment for any dictatorship - how do you keep reform partial? Because if you give people a little bit, they want a lot more.

This is the same thing that happened in China in the lead up to Tiananmen Square, or Eastern Europe in 1989, or Czechoslovakia in 1968 and Hungary in 1956.

In the end the only solution for the regime is either let go completely, or use massive force to terrorise the public back into submission. The Assads chose the latter route. The difference between him and the others is that Syria wasn't behind an iron curtain - and on top of that the vast majority of the Sunni world sympathises with Syria's Sunnis. The millions of Chinese who rose up against the government in 1989 sadly had no real friends overseas.

Even back in 2010, a Christian Syrian friend of mine in Damascus stunned me saying he was working on getting his Canadian immigrant visa so he could get the family out in an emergency. It was surprising because Assad looked secure, and the Christians, including this one supported the Baathists. I teased him a little about that and he replied very soberly "We love Bashar, and he is strong. Saddam used to look strong, and then he was gone. And so are the Christians of Iraq."

Hafez al-Assad, Bashar's father was a *much* cleverer man - he knew how to work the politics right. He kept Syria's Sunnis divided by looking after the interests of the Sunni rural working and lower middle classes, and he always kept both the Saudis and the Iranians on his side. So when a section of the Sunnis rose up 1976-82, backed by Saddam and the Jordanians, he was able to crush them with a free hand, with the support of Syrian as well as foreign Sunnis. Bashar and those around him are crude and complacent men in comparison unfortunately for all. They can kill like Hafez, but they cant rule with the same intelligence.

[Austin]

###### Deleted ##########

[Lilo]

The first and foremost responsibility for militarising this conflict goes to Bashar al-Assad, who chose to wage total war on his own people rather than accept political change.

I was in Syria in the summer of 2010. The regime was allowing more free speech and free movement, and that was a cause for optimism among Syria's young people.

But that is a delicate moment for any dictatorship - how do you keep reform partial? Because if you give people a little bit, they want a lot more.
"

Johann ji,
You speak as if you never heard of Arab "Spring" -

Suddenly a cart pusher on an Arab street of Tunisia is dispatched off and the whole Arab world rises up in protest against "Dictatorship" . Will any person believe this load of tripe West is peddling ?

Facts are ..the old esthyle paid mobs (refer how CIA and MI6 used this tactic to depose off an independent elected Iranian govt back in 1953) are now combined with new esthyle Social media blitz (Teetar , Facekitab, jootube) -the whole online communication is cleverly rigged to generate bouts of online outrage matching with the ebb and flow of the tide in the ground level "protests" by paid mobs.

West thought its WizKids can export revolution where ever and whenever it wants ...
It worked in Tunisia then Egypt then Libya then Yemen - till it collapsed spectacularly in Damascus against a resolute opponent finally this time with a spine (backed by major powers like Iran and Russia).

Since then it has been a morass for the West and a massacre after massacre didn't yield progress .Its going to be the same in Egypt's case too in the near future. Tunisia Libya and Yemen too are slowly cooking and will explode.

Ultimately artificial stuff like Arab Springs and Color Revolutions are in the end - just that - Artificial and the apparent order of things will collapse and lead to a more natural order of chaos and strife without a strongman to keep it within limits.

Frankly Johann ji, i suspect you too know the reality behind this kumbaya singing with coolaid about Individual rights democratic freedoms etc as not applicable (NA) to Arab world with its feudal and tribal outlook to life. At max they can be governed under some democratic mullahcracy as in Iran's case . Of course the West knows this (it has penned tomes of history of its rule in this region and dealt with these groups since crusades).

So please don't say that Assad was responsible for destroying his own country which he governed till recently with relative efficiency and earnestness as any Dictator could.

PS:If you don't believe that West is using social media to target turd world governments and Institutions ... Please refer the below opinion of Naresh Chandra given on RN Kao memorial lecture.

Jayalalitha - check
Mamata - check
Who's next? Nitish?

Welcome,
below is a replug of a recent video on the troubles in US-India relations and on "how to move them forward" ....


Diane Farrell of U.S.-India Business Council (USIBC) - takes a view that US has to deal with individual states within India for opening up the next set of "business opportunites".
Hillary is doing just that.

For some reason US foreign policymakers are nolonger necessiated to keep the dealings in a single window.
Maybe the new found networking capabilities of West through the social media revolution as demonstrated in Arab "Spring" and trial runned in Indian context in last year's Anna campaign - is the reason for this change.

Hillary even hints at this in the first question from audience in the burkha video, when she talks about america "reaching out" to Indian youth in the grassroots through social media - she even solicits other innovative ways to do so !!

In context a quote from R.N.Kao memorial lecture by Naresh Chandra

.....A revolution in communication and the tremendous expansion of the internet has created a new situation. The utility of monitoring telephonic conversation or intercepting messages on wireless is hardly sufficient any more. Besides the print media and TV, the social media has now a reach which runs into millions with extremely fast communication capable of creating a surge of public opinion and movement faster than any government agency can monitor, let alone control. We have seen highly centralized governments taken by surprise on movements springing on to the streets in unexpectedly large numbers united with a common intent. This is a new destabilizing phenomenon, but the impact of such events is fortunately less in democracies where the media is free and open. (this last line is probably in deference to media personalities present there .. BUT we all know the actual situation)

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1279304

In one hotel ballroom after another, Kaspersky insists that malware like Stuxnet and Flame should be banned by international treaty, like sarin gas or weaponized anthrax. He argues that the Internet should be partitioned and certain regions of it made accessible only to users who present an “Internet passport.” That way, anonymous hackers wouldn’t be able to get at sensitive sites—like, say, nuclear plants. Sure, it might seem like we’d be sacrificing some privacy online. But with all the advertisers, search engines, and governments tracking us today, Kaspersky argues, we don’t really have any privacy left anyway. “You can have privacy if you live somewhere in the jungle or the middle of Siberia,” he recently told a confab in the Bahamas.

Kaspersky and the Moscow government have espoused strikingly similar views on cybersecurity. This goes beyond the security industry’s basic mission of keeping data safe. When Kaspersky or Kremlin officials talk about responses to online threats, they’re not just talking about restricting malicious data—they also want to restrict what they consider malicious information, including words and ideas that can spur unrest.

Kaspersky can’t stand social networks like Facebook or its Russian competitor, VK (formerly known as VKontakte). “People can manipulate others with the fake information,” he says, “and it’s not possible to find who they are. It’s a place for very dangerous action.” Especially dangerous, he says, is the role of social networks in fueling protest movements from Tripoli to Moscow, where blogger Alexei Navalny has emerged as perhaps the most important dissident leader and sites like VK and LiveJournal have helped bring tens of thousands of people into the streets. Kaspersky sees these developments as part of a disinformation campaign by antigovernment forces to “manipulate crowds and change public opinion.”

Nikolai Patrushev—the former FSB chief who now serves as Putin’s top security adviser—makes a nearly identical case. In June he told a reporter that outside forces on the Internet are constantly creating tensions within Russian society. “Foreign sites are spreading political speculation, calls to unauthorized protests,” he says.

Yes, Kaspersky publicly touts a Kremlin-friendly line. But in Putin’s Russia, executives who neglect to do so have a disturbing habit of winding up in jail or being forced into exile. Besides, you don’t need to be a Moscow crony to push against free speech and privacy online. Plenty of Western officials are doing that too. Until 2011, Italians had to present their ID cards before using Wi-Fi at an Internet café. The European Commission is now mulling a continent-wide system of “electronic authentication.” British prime minister David Cameron contemplated cracking down on social media after the 2011 London riots. And retired US vice admiral Mike McConnell wrote in The Washington Post about the “need to reengineer the Internet to make attribution … more manageable.” He previously served as US director of national intelligence—America’s top spy.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07 ... ersky/all/

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1315089

[Austin]

Claims of chemical weapons use by Syria regime 'utter nonsense' - Putin

According to the Russian President Vladimir Putin, allegations of Assad's government use of chemical weapons in Syria are largely ungrounded. "While the Syrian army is on the offensive, saying that it is the Syrian government that used chemical weapons is utter nonsense," Putin told journalists in Vladivostok.

At the same time Putin notes that next week's G20 Summit in Russia's St Petersburg could be a good platform to discuss Syria crisis.

"The G20 is a good forum for discussing the Syria problem, so why not take advantage of this?" Putin told journalists in Vladivostok on Saturday. Presidential aide Yury Ushakov said earlier that, while Syria is not on the official agenda of the G20 summit in St. Petersburg, the issue could be brought up during bilateral contacts.

Putin also added that UK Parliament's decision regarding operation in Syria shows that there are people guided by common sense there, although Russian President admitted that the British Parliament's stance of Syria was an absolute surprise for him.

Addressing Obama as Nobel Peace Laureate, Putin urged him to think about victims in Syria in case of US intervention.

"Russia is urging you to think twice before making a decision on an operation in Syria," Putin said.

"Regarding the position of our American colleagues, who affirm that government troops used chemical weapons, and say that they have proof, well, let them show it to the United Nations inspectors and the Security Council," Putin told journalists. "If they don't show it, that means there is none."

[Pranav]

http://www.infowars.com/rebels-admit-re ... ns-attack/

Rebels Admit Responsibility for Chemical Weapons Attack
Militants tell AP reporter they mishandled Saudi-supplied chemical weapons, causing accident
Paul Joseph Watson
Infowars.com
August 30, 2013

The original story is from an independent news organization called MintPress.

EXCLUSIVE: Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses- ... ns/168135/

This first author Dale Gavlak is a well known journalist with good credentials. See http://www.mintpressnews.com/about-us/

For more about MintPress, see also http://www.minnpost.com/david-brauer-bl ... all-hiring

[member_20317]

What is 'limited, narrow action'?

Something like half-pregnancy kya?

[Philip]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/a ... tors-leave
Syria: Putin rubbishes chemical attack claims

• Russian president goes on offensive against Obama
• US weighs up next move as UN team go to Lebanon
• Two-thirds of French people oppose intervention, says poll

Vladimir Putin has rejected US intelligence claims that Bashar al-Assad's regime used chemical weapons in Syria, saying it would be "utter nonsense" for government troops to use such tactics in a war it was already winning.

"That is why I am convinced that [the chemical attack] is nothing more than a provocation by those who want to drag other countries into the Syrian conflict, and who want to win the support of powerful members of the international arena, especially the United States," Putin told journalists in Vladivostok.

The Russian president also challenged the US to present its case for military intervention to the UN security council, after suggesting that if Barack Obama was worthy of his Nobel peace prize, he should think about the possible victims of any intervention by foreign forces.

PS:There is an interesting stat. in the Hindu editorial (?) on Syria,tracing the drought of the last few years (due to underground water resources disappearing) ,that the Tigris and Euphrates water basin are also rapidly shrinking,and that Syria and India have the highest loss of GW resources worldwide! In Syria,this resulted in the rural folk migrating as refugees to the cities as agriculture collapsed,forcing the country to import food ,rising prices and an indifference to the poor/refugees by the regime.A people in dire poverty and eco stress are easy to arouse,esp. in the Middle East,and an over reaction by the regime in putting down protests can lead to civil strife.However,in Syria,the speed and manner in which the protesters equipped themselves (helped by outside forces) with weaponry indicates that the true story is anything but entirely homegrown,just like the Koodankuulam agitations allegedly financed to the tune of over $100M by outside interests.

[Sanku]

Claims of chemical weapons use by Syria regime 'utter nonsense' - Putin

although Russian President admitted that the British Parliament's stance of Syria was an absolute surprise for him.

Surya-ji, isnt it interesting the above sentence ? Isnt the surprise by Russia significant indication of the fact that there was, indeed, no surprise.

I think Russia must have made its stance clear to the key British functionaries, and parliamentary "procedure" gave them the needed "excuse" to back out.

Did the UK parliament really think that Libyan "freedom fighters" were any less terrorists than in Syria? Why then the reticence in this case?

The fact that UK went ahead with Libya, but is quailing now, is clear indicator that some other factor is at work, viz, Russia.

[Surya]

Sanku

nah - Brit politics has its own local issues and thats the outcome. The Brits are sheltered by the US so its not like they will be dhoti shivering - plus like it or not the$@$@$ have a lot of say in financial matters

and its not like the Russians would have lobbed missiles at the Britain???

there would be a couple of token brit warships to show the anglo american special relationship, couple of old expiry nearing weapons fired and then they would spash a ton of pictures.

99 % of the load lifting will be done by the americans. the brits and others are only to provide the fig leaf

[member_27444]

Libya is different Syria is different

Do you see any borders between Libya and Israel?

Syria is compensation for not attacking Iran

Obama is known to keep his word

Russia is a spent cartridge

Tussle is also about Snowden

Shadow boxing

As usual chin panda gets away selling arms to the region

[Sanku]

Russia is a spent cartridge

Tussle is also about Snowden

Direct contradiction.

[Sanku]

there would be a couple of token brit warships to show the anglo american special relationship, couple of old expiry nearing weapons fired and then they would spash a ton of pictures.

That is given. Yet the fact is, that they have chickened out. If it was "domestic" issues, then the same should have worked for Libya to a great degree.

And they did not even need parliamentary sanction for a limited action, or do they?

[member_27444]

Russia is a spent cartridge

Tussle is also about Snowden

Direct contradiction.

Not at all read the lament of communist party member of Russia posted in this thread Russia will be next

[member_20317]

Re. Russia next

So you believe Umrikhans are expecting Putin to act like Gorbi?

[member_27444]

No Putin has to draw his own Red line after all he is ex Red no?

If Putin does not dig in all his macho Fabio pictures mean nothing except riding a mare

It would be nightmare for Russia's allies if it comes to that.

From Kosovo to Libya Russia fall is well documented