Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Sep 2013 02:43

From Arun_S on the Brahmos:

BrahMos will cement India’s place as missile powerhouse: The Asian Age

Quote

Sep 20, 2013 - Anil Bhat | Age Correspondent

India’s successful test-launch of the nuclear-capable, intercontinental, surface-to-surface ballistic missile, Agni-V on September 15, 2013, following the April 2012 launch of the 5,000 kms range version of the same Agni-5 by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is again a significant achievement. DRDO’s inventory of missiles coupled with the versions of BrahMos missiles places India in the top league with China, France, Russia, the US, Britain and Israel. While a feature on DRDO’s missile programme was published by this newspaper earlier, it is relevant to take stock of the BrahMos programme on its completion of 15 years.

On February 19, 2013, BrahMos Aerospace celebrated “Aardhik Diwas” — Partnership Day — to commemorate 15 years of missile making. “BrahMos is a formidable weapon system. It has offered more punch and strike capability for the three services. We owe it all to Dr A.S. Pillai, CEO & MD, BrahMos Aeropsace and Dr A.G. Leonov, director general, NPOM. It is because of the zeal and enthusiasm of Dr Pillai that we have reached this stage,” remarked Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, Air Chief and Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee. He added that the modified Su-30 Mk-I aircraft will soon be equipped with the BrahMos missile.

For 70 per cent of arms and equipment of India’s Armed Forces supplied by erstwhile USSR from the late 1960s onwards, its break-up in December 1991 resulted in major problems of spares for the various systems. Rediscovering their strategic value to each other and renewing the relationship with a major change from buyer-seller to partners in a joint venture, the first significant step was India and Russia signing an agreement in February 1998, to design, develop, manufacture and market BrahMos missiles. Coined as a combination of Brahmaputra and Moscva rivers, this is a versatile supersonic cruise missile system launchable from submarines, ships, aircraft or land, which was successfully accomplished by 2006. At speeds of Mach 2.5 to 2.8, it is the world’s fastest cruise missile, about three and a half times faster than the American subsonic Harpoon cruise missile.

BrahMos, with a maximum range of 290 km, can attack surface targets by flying as low as 10 metres over surface-level and can gain a speed of Mach 2.8. The ship-launched and land-based missiles can carry a 200 kg warhead, whereas the aircraft-launched variant, BrahMos A, can carry a 300 kg warhead. It has a two-stage propulsion system, with a solid-propellant rocket for initial acceleration and a liquid-fuelled ramjet responsible for sustained supersonic cruise. Air-breathing ramjet propulsion is much more fuel-efficient than rocket propulsion, giving the BrahMos a longer range than a pure rocket-powered missile would achieve. The high speed of the BrahMos likely gives it better target-penetration characteristics than lighter subsonic cruise-missiles such as the Tomahawk. Being twice as heavy and almost four times faster than the Tomahawk, the BrahMos has more than 32 times the on-cruise kinetic energy of a Tomahawk missile, although it carries only 3/5th the payload and a fraction of the range despite weighing twice as much, which suggests that the missile was designed with a different tactical role. Its Mach 2.8 speed means that it cannot be intercepted by some existing missile defence systems and its precision makes it lethal to water targets or those in a cluster.

BrahMos was first test-fired on June 12, 2001 from the Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur, in a vertical launch configuration. On June 14, 2004, it was fired from a mobile launcher. On March 5, 2008, the land attack version of the missile was fired from the destroyer INS Rajput and the missile hit and destroyed the selected target amidst a cluster of targets. The missile was vertically launched on December 18, 2008, from INS Ranvir. BrahMos I Block-I for the Army was successfully tested with new capabilities in the deserts of Rajasthan, at a test range near Pokharan in December 2004 and March 2007.

On March 4, 2009, BrahMos was tested again with a new navigation system, found successful and then test-fired yet again on March 29, 2009. For this test, the missile had to identify a building among a cluster of buildings in an urban environment. It successfully hit the intended target within two-and-a-half minutes of launch. What made a quantum difference was the new “seeker,” considered unique and capable of seeking targets, which may be insignificant in terms of size, in a cluster of large buildings. India is now the only nation in the world with this advanced technology. After the third test, the Indian Army confirmed that the test was extremely successful and approved the missile. This marked the completion of development phase of BrahMos Block-II.

On March 21, 2010, BrahMos was test-fired and struck a free-floating ship piercing it above the waterline and destroying it completely. The test proved the missile’s manoeuvrability at supersonic speed before hitting a target, making India the first and only country to have a manoeuvrable supersonic cruise missile.

On September 5, 2010, BrahMos created a world record for being the first cruise missile to be tested at supersonic speeds in a steep-dive mode, achieving the Army’s requirement for land attacks with Block-II “advanced seeker software” along with “target discriminating capabilities.” BrahMos became the only supersonic cruise missile possessing advanced capability of selection of a particular land target amongst a group of targets, providing the user with an important edge of precision without collateral damage.

The Block III version of the missile was successfully test-fired on December 2, 2010, from ITR, Chandipur, with advanced guidance and upgraded software, incorporating high manoeuvres at multiple points and steep dive from high altitude. The steep dive capability of the Block III enables it to hit targets hidden behind a mountain range. It will be deployed in Arunachal Pradesh. It is capable of being launched from multiple platforms like submarines, ships, aircraft and land based Mobile Autonomous Launchers (MAL). On August 12, 2011, it was test-fired by ground forces and met all mission parameters. On March 4, 2012, it was test-fired by an Indian Army unit at the Pokharan range in Rajasthan to operationalise the second regiment of the weapon system in the Army. With this test, attended by top brass including vice chief Lt. Gen. Shri Krishna Singh and Director General Military Operations (DGMO) Lt. Gen. A.K. Chaudhary, the second BrahMos unit of the Indian Army became operational.

On October 7, 2012, the Indian Navy successfully test-fired BrahMos from the guided missile frigate INS Teg. This new highly manoeuvrable version was fitted with advanced satellite navigation systems turning it into a “super-rocket” capable of hitting targets over 300–500 km from sea, land and air launchers, and capable of carrying a nuclear warhead. The submarine-launched variant of Brahmos was test fired successfully for the first time from a submerged pontoon near Visakhapatnam at the coast of Bay of Bengal on 20 March 2013. This was the first vertical launch of a supersonic missile from a submerged platform. The missile can be launched from a depth of 40 to 50 meters.

The purchase of over 200 air-launched BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles for the IAF was cleared by Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) on October 19, 2012, at the cost of `6,000 crore ($1 billion). This includes funds for the integration and testing of the BrahMos on IAF’s Su-30MKI. Two Su-30MKI modified by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at its Nashik facility where they will also be integrated with the missile’s aerial launcher. The trial is expected to be conducted in early 2014. Also under development is a smaller variant of the air-launched BrahMos, to arm the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, future induction like the 126 Dassault Rafale, and the Indian Navy’s MiG-29K. A model of the new variant was showcased on 20 February 2013, at the 15th anniversary celebrations of BrahMos Aerospace. This smaller version is three metres shorter than the present missile will also have a range of 290 km. The Sukhoi SU-30MKI will carry three missiles while other combat aircraft will carry one each.

BrahMos is reportedly attempting a hypersonic Mach 8 version of the missile, BrahMos II, the first ever hypersonic cruise missile, expected to be ready soon. Former President of India, A.P.J. Abdul Kalam has reportedly recommended to BrahMos Aerospace to develop an advanced hypersonic version of the BrahMos cruise missile to maintain India’s lead in the field. He said that such a version, which will be able to deliver its payload and return to base and be re-useable, is needed. This would turn BrahMos into an Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle.

What needs to be emphasised yet again is that no matter how many or how sophisticated missile systems India has, with the threats it faces, its depleted arsenal of conventional weapons like battle tanks, artillery guns and some other weapons and equipment must urgently be modernized and refurbished enough to take on not one, but two intransigent adversaries very friendly with each other, over its vast disputed and undisputed borders.

Someone was asking about an IAF ASMP type vehicle?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 24 Sep 2013 04:32

ToI: Anti-tank Nag missile 'Helina's' trial conducted
Vimal Bhatia, TNN | Sep 24, 2013, 03.00 AM IST

JAISALMER: The second land-to-land preliminarily trial of 'fire and forget' third generation anti-tank Nag missile's upgraded land version — 'Helina' — was carried out on Sunday at the Pokhran field firing range. The target was fired in the presence of Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and army officials. The missile hit the target successfully.

Defence sources said, "For hitting the target, a launching pad was made in Pokhran field firing range. Helina's target was set 7km from the launching pad. The target was fired from launching pad and was hit successfully."

Before this, air-to-ground preliminarily trials of anti-tank Nag missile's air version of 'Helina' were conducted on October 21, 2011, which were unsuccessful.

"The range of the land version will be extended by development of a mast-mounted missile launcher that is hydraulically raised to a height of 5 metres to enable the missile to acquire its targets up to a distance of 7-8km. An air-launched, 10-km range variant will be launched from tactical interdiction aircraft like the upgraded Jaguar IS. It has a nose-mounted mill metric-wave active radar seeker," sources said.

Defence sources said, "The Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) will also start working on the 'man portable' Nag soon. It would weigh less than 14kg. It is being developed as per user requirements and will see upgraded propulsion to enable 'Helina' to strike enemy armour at a distance of 7-8km."

Nag is a third generation 'fire-and-forget' anti-tank missile developed in India. It is one of the five missile systems developed by DRDO under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP). Nag has been developed at a cost of Rs 300 crore. Its land version is presently undergoing trials in Chandan field firing range in Pokhran.

Nag is also configured to be used on the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and the HAL Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). This version is known as Helina (HELIcopter launched Ngg). Eight missiles are carried in two quadruple launchers. Launchers mounted on either side are linked to a nose-mounted stabilized thermal sight and a laser range-finder package.

'Helina' with a range of 7-8km, will be launched from twin-tube stub wing-mounted launchers on board the armed HAL Dhruv and HAL Light Combat Helicopter produced by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). The first ground launches of the missiles were conducted in October 2011 during which the missile was launched onto the target. While the missile was in flight, a second target was chosen for the missile to hit, which was successfully destroyed. This demonstrated the capability of the missile to lock onto and hit another target while in flight. A two-way RF command-video data link has been released which is intended to be fired from HAL ALH.

"Nag missile has a top attack capability. The 'Helina' version will use a 'lock-on after launch' system extending its range to 7km. In this scenario, the missile is launched in the general direction of the target. As it approaches the target, images of the area ahead are sent back to the operator who will be able to identify enemy tanks. The command to lock onto a tank is then passed onto the seeker through an uplink mid-flight. After that, the missile homes in onto the target and destroys it," sources said.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Sep 2013 05:59

PratikDas wrote:ToI: Anti-tank Nag missile 'Helina's' trial conducted

This has to be the best news to come out of the Nag stable for a long time. Shows that IA+DRDO are far ahead in the game than even fathomed by mango BRF abduls

JAISALMER: The second land-to-land preliminarily trial of 'fire and forget' third generation anti-tank Nag missile's upgraded land version — 'Helina' — was carried out on Sunday at the Pokhran field firing range.

IMO, this is the first reference ever about such a missile - and that too after it has been successfully launched and achieved the required parameters. I think DRDO has learned that failures (if one can call them that) get unnecessary attention and bad press in local media

The target was fired in the presence of Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and army officials. The missile hit the target successfully.

Defence sources said, "For hitting the target, a launching pad was made in Pokhran field firing range. Helina's target was set 7km from the launching pad. The target was fired from launching pad and was hit successfully."

Before this, air-to-ground preliminarily trials of anti-tank Nag missile's air version of 'Helina' were conducted on October 21, 2011, which were unsuccessful. So, if this is the first test of the missile, I am assuming that the development started 2-3 years from today. That would be pretty fast development cycle - shows that once we achieve maturity in certain areas, we can develop spin-off products pretty quickly

"The range of the land version will be extended by development of a mast-mounted missile launcher that is hydraulically raised to a height of 5 metres to enable the missile to acquire its targets up to a distance of 7-8km.

OK, there is some confusion here. This Missiles being raised in a mast makes no sense to me for two prime reasons. First, raising couple of missiles weighing ~50 kg each to a height of 5 meters/15 feet itself will require pretty large amount of power.Secondly, this the missile has lock-on-after-launch capability, why would they need to raise the missile to acquire the target? Is it possible that Sensors will be raised using mast to scan the battlefield and acquire the target - which can be then fed to the missile or missile launched in general direction of the targets for LOAL?

An air-launched, 10-km range variant will be launched from tactical interdiction aircraft like the upgraded Jaguar IS. It has a nose-mounted mill metric-wave active radar seeker," sources said.

Our very own desi-Brimstone in works?

Defence sources said, "The Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) will also start working on the 'man portable' Nag soon. It would weigh less than 14kg. It is being developed as per user requirements and will see upgraded propulsion to enable 'Helina' to strike enemy armour at a distance of 7-8km."

Now will those who have been bad-mouthing IA on ATGM import and stuff please stand-up and apologize for the stupid name calling and inane rants? Very easy to shoot your mouth without knowing development on the ground, no?

It seems my initial premise that Javelin will be procured in limited numbers seems to be true. From the date of signing of contract to final delivery, Javelin induction will take couple of years. Man-portable Nag should have a development cycle of ~4-6 years for user trials and subsequent induction. By that time IA will have absorbed Javelin and be ready for man-portable Nag. As it is, given the cost of the missile, I don't think we can afford to do a one-to-one replacement in IA service. So, it seems that we will have a combination of Javelin and Nag.

<SNIP>

The first ground launches of the missiles were conducted in October 2011 during which the missile was launched onto the target. While the missile was in flight, a second target was chosen for the missile to hit, which was successfully destroyed. This demonstrated the capability of the missile to lock onto and hit another target while in flight. A two-way RF command-video data link has been released which is intended to be fired from HAL ALH.

I think this system has been ruggedized and adapted for ground use. Pretty advanced and sophisticated targeting system we're talking about here.

"Nag missile has a top attack capability. The 'Helina' version will use a 'lock-on after launch' system extending its range to 7km. In this scenario, the missile is launched in the general direction of the target. As it approaches the target, images of the area ahead are sent back to the operator who will be able to identify enemy tanks. The command to lock onto a tank is then passed onto the seeker through an uplink mid-flight. After that, the missile homes in onto the target and destroys it," sources said.

Something like this is very important to beat the line-of-sight limitations in Indian context discussed earlier.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Sep 2013 06:14

HELINA is upgraded land version ???

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Sep 2013 06:45

Can the helina be intigerated to the Apache , being purchased for the IAF. Or will they use only, the Hellfire.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 24 Sep 2013 07:09

rohitvats wrote:
"The range of the land version will be extended by development of a mast-mounted missile launcher that is hydraulically raised to a height of 5 metres to enable the missile to acquire its targets up to a distance of 7-8km.

OK, there is some confusion here. This Missiles being raised in a mast makes no sense to me for two prime reasons. First, raising couple of missiles weighing ~50 kg each to a height of 5 meters/15 feet itself will require pretty large amount of power.Secondly, this the missile has lock-on-after-launch capability, why would they need to raise the missile to acquire the target? Is it possible that Sensors will be raised using mast to scan the battlefield and acquire the target - which can be then fed to the missile or missile launched in general direction of the targets for LOAL?

They are talking about NAMICA - the way it usually operates.

rohitvats wrote:Defence sources said, "The Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) will also start working on the 'man portable' Nag soon. It would weigh less than 14kg. It is being developed as per user requirements and will see upgraded propulsion to enable 'Helina' to strike enemy armour at a distance of 7-8km."

Now will those who have been bad-mouthing IA on ATGM import and stuff please stand-up and apologize for the stupid name calling and inane rants? Very easy to shoot your mouth without knowing development on the ground, no?

Not so fast sirji.

That is man-portable HELINA

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 24 Sep 2013 07:11

Hope this man-portable Nag revelation doesn't interfere with the Javelin purchase in the short term and even the co-development if that is still in the cards. DRDO should continue testing/developing while an Indian partner (ideally from private sector) ties up with Raytheon/LM. To put things on hold while we wait for the DRDO product would most likely follow a predictable path (the garden variety) and leave the army hostage. Reducing the size of the missile by more than half would be quite a commendable feat but it will not likely be as easy or quick as we would like.

partha · Post by **partha** » 24 Sep 2013 08:33

PratikDas wrote: As it approaches the target, images of the area ahead are sent back to the operator who will be able to identify enemy tanks. The command to lock onto a tank is then passed onto the seeker through an uplink mid-flight. After that, the missile homes in onto the target and destroys it," sources said.[/b]

With 230 m/s (per wiki) the missile will be able to cover 7KM in about 30s. If the operator gets the area image mid flight, he will have just 5 to 10s to respond and identify the target

Are there missiles which use pattern recognition software to automatically recognize tanks and hit them thus reducing the need for a human operator after the missile is launched?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 24 Sep 2013 08:40

While it is good to hear of the progress in the NAG and its derivatives .. This news has some contradictions .. better to wait for more information. Quite possibly the reporter messed up the report because of his lack of understanding of the subject.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Sep 2013 08:53

Kanson wrote:They are talking about NAMICA - the way it usually operates.

Not correct.

NAMICA does not raise missiles to 5 meter / 15 feet to scan the battlefield - the missile is launched in a lofted profile. This is first time that mast-mounted missile has been talked about.

Not so fast sirji.

That is man-portable HELINA

The report categorically states that we'd be working on man-portable Nag - HELINA has been modified for land use as per this article.

Now, this brings me a an interesting question:

- Who asked for a land-launched version of HELINA with such stand-off range?
- And what happens to NAMICA+Nag combo with this missile coming on line? This is a much superior product and I guess in another 24 months a full system of vehicle mounted missiles+Sensors and support vehicles will be ready.

Where will Nag+NAMICA fit in the whole equation?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Sep 2013 09:07

As it approaches the target, images of the area ahead are sent back to the operator who will be able to identify enemy tanks.

an ops feedback behavior where automation can take in for later advanced versions from IFF to real-time signature analysis.. still the work flow can be overridden by the operator to home in on the target he/she wishes to attack.

interesting.. but needs jam proof comms.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 Sep 2013 09:23

not sure is there a contradiction here?

Before this, air-to-ground preliminarily trials of anti-tank Nag missile's air version of 'Helina' were conducted on October 21, 2011, which were unsuccessful.

The first ground launches of the missiles were conducted in October 2011 during which the missile was launched onto the target. While the missile was in flight, a second target was chosen for the missile to hit, which was successfully destroyed. This demonstrated the capability of the missile to lock onto and hit another target while in flight. A two-way RF command-video data link has been released which is intended to be fired from HAL ALH.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 24 Sep 2013 09:29

Victor wrote:Hope this man-portable Nag revelation doesn't interfere with the Javelin purchase in the short term and even the co-development if that is still in the cards. DRDO should continue testing/developing while an Indian partner (ideally from private sector) ties up with Raytheon/LM. To put things on hold while we wait for the DRDO product would most likely follow a predictable path (the garden variety) and leave the army hostage. Reducing the size of the missile by more than half would be quite a commendable feat but it will not likely be as easy or quick as we would like.

+1

pankajs wrote:While it is good to hear of the progress in the NAG and its derivatives .. This news has some contradictions .. better to wait for more information. Quite possibly the reporter messed up the report because of his lack of understanding of the subject.

I am intrigued by the report that the air-to-ground trial failed and they went back to a ground-based rig...are these issues with the missile or the lack of proper stabilization/fire-control with the helicopter. Weapon integration is time consuming, tricky, and dangerous.

All this talk of future derivatives when the baseline has not been inducted gets me nervous...seem to remember similar stuff around the Trishul when the SHORAD/QRSAM morphed into an anti sea-skimmer.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 24 Sep 2013 09:33

rohitvats wrote:
Kanson wrote:They are talking about NAMICA - the way it usually operates.
Not correct.

NAMICA does not raise missiles to 5 meter / 15 feet to scan the battlefield - the missile is launched in a lofted profile. This is first time that mast-mounted missile has been talked about.

Unless bitten by Prasun bug, it is NAMICA; reporter twisted words to mean as if missiles are hydraulically lifted to 5 mts.

rohitvats wrote:The report categorically states that we'd be working on man-portable Nag - HELINA has been modified for land use as per this article.

Now, this brings me a an interesting question:

- Who asked for a land-launched version of HELINA with such stand-off range?
- And what happens to NAMICA+Nag combo with this missile coming on line? This is a much superior product and I guess in another 24 months a full system of vehicle mounted missiles+Sensors and support vehicles will be ready.

Where will Nag+NAMICA fit in the whole equation?

Heard of Spike missile family? So NAG-HELINA is fast emerging as such. There are info to suggest IA wants LOAL capabilities for ground launch. So HELINA.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 24 Sep 2013 09:37

RajitO wrote:All this talk of future derivatives when the baseline has not been inducted gets me nervous...seem to remember similar stuff around the Trishul when the SHORAD/QRSAM morphed into an anti sea-skimmer.

Exactly! That is the reason failures are not advertised.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 24 Sep 2013 09:39

suryag wrote:not sure is there a contradiction here?

Lets start at the very beginning of the report.

JAISALMER: The second land-to-land preliminarily trial of 'fire and forget' third generation anti-tank Nag missile's upgraded land version — 'Helina' — was carried out on Sunday at the Pokhran field firing range. The target was fired in the presence of Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and army officials. The missile hit the target successfully.

I always thought Helina stood for HELIcopter NAg. There are others such nuggets. So take the data offered but ignore the analysis.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 24 Sep 2013 09:45

Kanson wrote:
RajitO wrote:All this talk of future derivatives when the baseline has not been inducted gets me nervous...seem to remember similar stuff around the Trishul when the SHORAD/QRSAM morphed into an anti sea-skimmer.
Exactly! That is the reason failures are not advertised.

Sorry, but I did not get that...one, the failure in this case was advertised, two, what good can come from not reporting failures?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Sep 2013 12:19

Reading the discussion the mast mounted version of Helina, perhaps the DRDO has this in mind.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73614187@N ... hotostream

Or

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73614187@N ... hotostream

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 24 Sep 2013 17:44

RajitO wrote:Sorry, but I did not get that...one, the failure in this case was advertised, two, what good can come from not reporting failures?

In my humble view, we (aam aadmi) though may have skills, at most times may not have all the necessary details to see the 'failures' in correct perspective. Without such details we tend to take extreme POV. These views usually are associated with high emotions and these emotions are contagious. Without our knowledge, any mistake on our part in reading the message gets amplified. So I say, any failures if to be released is after due consideration at appropriate time with correct information. Neither I believe in complete whitewashing of all the failures.

I may have a different view of Trishul than yours.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 24 Sep 2013 22:06

i was trying to understand the NAG and its various avatars and it 'positively' seems to me - DRDO is building a 'family' around NAG and variants.

1. Nag NAMICA mounted - for 'niche' role (IIR Seeker).

2. CLGM (modelled on LAHAT), i guess, would replace Konkur - M/Kornet in the medium to long term - as vehicle mounted (with semi active laser guidance).

3. SAMHO which is nothing but CLGM but man portable version for tripod/vehicle mounted etc - again Konkur/Kornet replacement (with semi active laser guidance).

4. shoulder fired NAG in the class of Javelin/Spike - waiting, i guess, for sanction. possibly completely a new version or a variant of CLGM (possibly with an IIR seeker).

5. Helina as air launched version (with mmW seeker).

6. CLGM/SAMHO also serves as an additional air launched option (with semi active laser guidance).

..................

don't know if this was posted. the animation video of DRDO CLGM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W53pMpfgaZE

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Sep 2013 23:43

pragnya wrote:5. Helina as air launched version (with mmW seeker).

Yes, this is basically a missile along with HELINA, which will be our desi brimstone. I had mentioned it around two -three weeks back.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... ?p=1507490

HELINA, which apparently is being evaluated for extension to a Brimstone style capability, which the IAF is very interested in.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Sep 2013 00:09

I think the reporter got thoroughly confused with the nomenclature of Nag and Helina. Please wait till somebody else reports it correctly. All this analysis will otherwise have a very weak base.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Sep 2013 01:53

What he is saying is pretty logical and the report is pretty well detailed.
Both Pragnya and Rohitvats got it as well.

Basically, the HELINA will now be used as the basis of a long range ATGM - akin to the Spike LR (the two way RF means it is not just F&F but can be retargeted as demonstrated in an earlier test) with the launcher/designation optics on a tall mast. This is a good move as it avoids LOS issues in difficult terrain and gives LOBL capability as required (for shorter range engagements). It also shows how far DRDO has come in terms of systems engineering. Time was that it had to develop everything from the design to the motors inhouse. Now with private partners like L&T who have worked on it for radars & other mast related work, this is quite achievable.

The existing Nag will be inducted first, quickly i think, since the IA would be glad to bulk up with a ready F&F ATGM and strengthen its AT capabilities. The NAG with a few lightly armed infantry/special forces units can be a force multiplier, even apart from its original designated role. The reengineered seeker has proven itself in trials recently, per reports. The improved Namica is being put through its paces as per recent news.

Also, a variant of the Nag is being developed for fast movers, with a MMW seeker. This will use the seeker successfully tested previously.

This apart, a manportable ATGM is in the works, I believe (given the amount of design effort involved), that this is just named Nag to keep things straightforward. For all practical purposes they will have to develop entirely new subsystems, even if the overall architecture is similar.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Sep 2013 07:21

Pratyush wrote:Reading the discussion the mast mounted version of Helina, perhaps the DRDO has this in mind.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73614187@N ... hotostream

Or

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73614187@N ... hotostream

I'm adding this to my collection. Thanks. You see, these type of mast is useful for LOS/SACLOS missiles. Not necessary but useful.

NORINCO GT-6 system, admired by Prasun, is again for SACLOS type missile(AKD-10 laser-guided ATGMs).

NAG and in turn HELINA is a F&F type missile. In my opinion, unless there is some very specific requirement from IA to operate NAMICA in specific mode to raise missile to that height, I don't think we will be having such prototype. As Rohitvats mentioned it is a waste of energy for F&F type missile.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Sep 2013 07:28

indranilroy wrote:I think the reporter got thoroughly confused with the nomenclature of Nag and Helina. Please wait till somebody else reports it correctly. All this analysis will otherwise have a very weak base.

Maybe. But if other developments can be linked with this report we can.....Why is that there is so paucity of reporting on NAG I don't know. I can understand why DRDO is not forthcoming but the reporters?

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Sep 2013 08:11

Kanson wrote:
rohitvats wrote:quote="Kanson" They are talking about NAMICA - the way it usually operates. /quote]

Not correct.

NAMICA does not raise missiles to 5 meter / 15 feet to scan the battlefield - the missile is launched in a lofted profile. This is first time that mast-mounted missile has been talked about.
Unless bitten by Prasun bug, it is NAMICA; reporter twisted words to mean as if missiles are hydraulically lifted to 5 mts.

...

Rohitvats is correct. That article has a bunch of inconsistencies. A couple of years ago, the IA had user trialed the NAMICA/NAG and had requested additional changes before commiting to an order of 13 NAMICA w/443 NAG missiles. One was reducing the number of missiles carried on top from 8 to 6 as it was top heavy. The other thing that was requested was a taller optical mast for an ability to acquire target from behind defensive/natural cover.

Then again the reporter could have been confused with HELINA being demonstrated from a raised test platform ...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Sep 2013 09:02

Kanson wrote:<SNIP>

NORINCO GT-6 system, admired by Prasun, is again for SACLOS type missile(AKD-10 laser-guided ATGMs).

NAG and in turn HELINA is a F&F type missile. In my opinion, unless there is some very specific requirement from IA to operate NAMICA in specific mode to raise missile to that height, I don't think we will be having such prototype. As Rohitvats mentioned it is a waste of energy for F&F type missile.

Just look at the size of those vehicles in the pictures linked!

One uses a 6 x 6 vehicle like TATRA as tank killer and other uses what looks like a MBT hull. These were Cold War solution to problems faced by west - strong ATGM component against massed Soviet armor. And technology was a limitation.

We have a F&F missile and new one talks about 2-way RF for LOAL and mid-course change in targets - what we may require is mast-mounted surveillance equipment. This can serve two-roles - help to scan battlefield for targets as well as reconnaissance and surveillance from covered areas. The weight of any such system will be fraction of missiles loaded on a mast. And a ICV can easily manage such power requirement.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 25 Sep 2013 09:38

indranilroy wrote:I think the reporter got thoroughly confused with the nomenclature of Nag and Helina. Please wait till somebody else reports it correctly. All this analysis will otherwise have a very weak base.

i did not go by the TOI report (look below). i went thro' Kornet/Konkur pages on wiki and available brochure material on CLGM/SAMHO and previous reports on NAG/HELINA by 'The Hindu' newspaper wrt the seeker and my understanding is - as i put in my post.

Karan M,

there definitely seems to be 'some' confusion wrt the reporter of TOI. what srai says -

srai wrote:Then again the reporter could have been confused with HELINA being demonstrated from a raised test platform ...

seems correct IMO.

possibly it was HELINA tested on the ground from a raised structure similar to this -

also note the reporter says - right at the beginning - it was the 'second' HELINA test after oct 11. if it was a totally new missile it should have been the 'first' test, isn't it??

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Sep 2013 12:01

Fully indigenous BrahMos missile to be rolled out in three years

KOCHI: A fully indigenous BrahMos missile will be rolled out in three years, according to A Sivthanu Pillai, CMD of the Indo-Russian joint venture company.

"We currently use fully indigenous steel for the missile. Now we are trying to undertake the integration part also at BrahMos," Pillai told reporters here.

"Efforts to make the missile engine at BrahMos will also be realized in three years. However, the explosive components of the missiles will be sourced from outside as we cannot handle explosives in our unit," he said.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 25 Sep 2013 12:23

considering there has been no movement on the 'stop gap' procurement of either PARS 3LR or Spike for which trials were held in 2011, i hereby, 'speculate' HELINA has advanced beyond our understanding!!!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Sep 2013 12:56

^^^

Saar don't jinx it.

Cause you never know when the MOD wakes up and makes an urgent order for those weapons for the ALH Rudra.

So I will say, that, the HELINA failed onlee, and will never be successful onlee

mody · Post by **mody** » 25 Sep 2013 14:05

For the fully indigenous Brahmos, I wonder if we only be doing screw driver assembly of the engine or will be getting the full ToT for the ramjet engine from the russians?

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 25 Sep 2013 17:16

Karan M wrote:
pragnya wrote:5. Helina as air launched version (with mmW seeker).
Yes, this is basically a missile along with HELINA, which will be our desi brimstone. I had mentioned it around two -three weeks back.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... ?p=1507490

HELINA, which apparently is being evaluated for extension to a Brimstone style capability, which the IAF is very interested in.

You are right.

however it is interesting to note while Brimstone has dual seeker in the form of mmW + SAL, HELINA is IIR/mmW seeker based (may be optional but one of them) but as i said IMO services will have an option of SAL in the form of air launhced CLGM (in the LAHAT class).

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 25 Sep 2013 19:29

If i remember correctly DRDO chief had recently had said that Local content in BrahMos is 35 % , 3 years

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Sep 2013 20:26

rohitvats wrote:
Kanson wrote:<SNIP>

NORINCO GT-6 system, admired by Prasun, is again for SACLOS type missile(AKD-10 laser-guided ATGMs).

NAG and in turn HELINA is a F&F type missile. In my opinion, unless there is some very specific requirement from IA to operate NAMICA in specific mode to raise missile to that height, I don't think we will be having such prototype. As Rohitvats mentioned it is a waste of energy for F&F type missile.
Just look at the size of those vehicles in the pictures linked!

One uses a 6 x 6 vehicle like TATRA as tank killer and other uses what looks like a MBT hull. These were Cold War solution to problems faced by west - strong ATGM component against massed Soviet armor. And technology was a limitation.

We have a F&F missile and new one talks about 2-way RF for LOAL and mid-course change in targets - what we may require is mast-mounted surveillance equipment. This can serve two-roles - help to scan battlefield for targets as well as reconnaissance and surveillance from covered areas. The weight of any such system will be fraction of missiles loaded on a mast. And a ICV can easily manage such power requirement.

True.

There was also other reason to post the link. The comment section where NAMICA/NAG Vs G6/AKD-10 between Prasun and others to the relevance of our discussion on HELINA for NAMICA. Though there are many contradictions in his assertion, it seems their arguments become moot if NAMICA has HELINA instead of NAG. At one point of time in his argument, Prasun stopped short of saying IA is looking for 7km standoff range. You can see the 7km reference in that TOI article. BTW the blog post was more than a year old.

In the words of Will Smith(I Robot), this will be one of the several bread crumbs littered around only waiting to be pieced together. Such bread crumbs can be seen in several news items to official docs.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Sep 2013 20:44

srai wrote:[That article has a bunch of inconsistencies.

Could be.

srai wrote:A couple of years ago, the IA had user trialed the NAMICA/NAG and had requested additional changes before commiting to an order of 13 NAMICA w/443 NAG missiles. One was reducing the number of missiles carried on top from 8 to 6 as it was top heavy. The other thing that was requested was a taller optical mast for an ability to acquire target from behind defensive/natural cover.

I didn't disagree anywhere on this. I too voicing the same.

srai wrote:Then again the reporter could have been confused with HELINA being demonstrated from a raised test platform ...

I couldn't share your reasoning. You mean to say all other information mentioned in the TOI article as farce.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Sep 2013 14:53

BrahMos mini-rocket may be adopted in 2017

KOCHI (India), September 26 (Itar-Tass) - Work on a scaled-down version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile co-produced by Russia and India is in the initial stage and the rocket may be phased into service in 2017, Dr. Sivathanu Pillai, CEO and MD of the BrahMos Aerospace Company, told Itar-Tass on Thursday.

"In order to install a BrahMos rocket on board a fighter plane, it is essential to reduce the rocket's weight. A reduced version got the name of BrahMos-M (mini). After work on a detail design and an initial configuration of the rocket is completed, the development of the rocket proper will ensue," he pointed out.

According to Dr. Pillai, since the project "is in its initial stage, it is difficult to tell when the rocket may be phased into service". "Nevertheless, we expect that it will be adopted in the range of 2017," Dr. Pillai added.

The weight of a prospective rocket will be 1.5 tons and its length will be about six meters. It will be designed for Su-30MKI and MiG-29 fighter planes. However, it will be also fit for other operational combat aircraft or those set to be adopted by the Air Force of India, including Rafale and Mirage-2000 aircraft.

The first launch of an aviation version of BrahMos rocket (BrahMos-A) is slated for June 2014. A Su-30MKI fighter plane armed with it must be ready in September 2015. Only one BrahMos rocket can be mounted on it. In case of the manufacture of reduced versions of the rocket, the Su-30MKI will be able to carry three rockets and it will be possible to put two BrahMos-M rockets on a MiG-29.

The Russo-Indian joint-venture enterprise BrahMos was established in 1998 and got its name in honour of the rivers Brahmaputra and Moskva. The Company is the technological partner of India's first naval and shipbuilding exhibition NAMEXPO-2013 held in the city of Kochi in the southern state of Kerala these days.

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 26 Sep 2013 16:00

Another moronic article!! Full of twisted logic.
From the link http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... rsuit.html

Abandon the needless pursuit
Thursday, 26 September 2013 | Pravin Sawhney | in Oped

An Agni-6 or a new Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile will spur China to more openly support Pakistan with added strategic capabilities against India. The country should put Agni-5 to greater use, which will serve the purpose of yet another missile

After the successful second test-firing of 5,000km range Agni-5 on September 15, Defence Research and Development Organisation chief Avinash Chander told the media that his organisation is capable of making a 10,000km range Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile in two years. Earlier, he spoke about the 6,000km Agni-6 design being ready even without Government clearance. According to him, Agni-6 would have a three-tonne payload (present Agni series missiles have one-tonne payload) with multiple warhead vehicles called Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicles meant to hit different targets.

While it is not clear whether Mr Chander had Government clearance to make such claims, these have not gone down well with China and the US, two nations affected by these developments. The Chinese media has lashed out saying that their ballistic missiles are superior, and US Deputy Secretary of Defence Ashton Carter has said that India should not start an arms race in the Asia-Pacific region. The basic issue, however, is whether DRDO claims are justified.

All ballistic missiles have two critical technologies of propulsion and navigation; propulsion means the engine or rocket and navigation refers to accuracy. In ballistic missiles, the power of a rocket is determined by the potency of propellant it carries within. Besides propellant potency, rockets have multiple stages filled with propellant to provide enhanced thrust to long-range ballistic missiles. Since the rocket (single or multiple-stage) burns for only one-sixth of the duration of the ballistic missile’s flight, after which the payload (containing warhead) without power is left in space to find its way back into the atmosphere and on to the target, it is necessary that the rocket be extremely powerful to provide needed terminal velocity before getting discarded.

Fortunately, details of the recent three-stage Agni-5 test-firing are available as in a moment of euphoria, DRDO scientists shared them with a friendly media they had taken along to Wheeler Island. The first stage got discarded after 90 seconds, the second stage after another 75 seconds, and the final rocket stage fell off after another 75 seconds. The payload, according to this media, had the terminal speed of six kilometres per second for a 20 minutes flight. Thus, the Agni-5 rocket worked for four minutes out of a total of 20 minutes it took to deliver the payload at 5,000km range.

Compare this with an ICBM which travels 10,000km in 20 minutes and has its rocket burning for five minutes; the remaining 15 minutes flight of the ICBM payload is without power. The ICBM payload terminal speed, is greater (much more than double) than six kilometres per second.

The comparison explains that, if Agni-5 is to increase its range from 5,000km to become an ICBM with 10,000km, the way out is to have an extremely potent propellant than what the DRDO now has. This major limitation is also the reason why the DRDO is unable to make the needed exo (outside atmosphere) interceptor for the indigenous Anti-Ballistic Missile system. The present exo-interceptor has demonstrated an altitude of 80km only. The previous DRDO chief, Mr VK Saraswat, had claimed in 2009 to do an exo-interception of incoming hostile ballistic missile at 120km altitude, something that has not been possible. The problem with the DRDO propellant is its low burn rate of five to 10 millimetres per second. What is needed is a propellant with burn rate of minimum 70 millimetres per second for both 10,000km range missile and the exo-interceptor. Shouldn't the DRDO be concentrating on acquiring this rather than make claims about Agni-6, ICBM or ABM system? Also related with a weak propellant is DRDO’s inability to do an anti-satellite test, something China demonstrated in January, 2007, by hitting a satellite at the height 250km in low earth orbit.

The other issue refers to Agni-5 navigation system. All DRDO ballistic missiles (the Agni series, Prithvi variants, Shaurya, Prahar, ABM interceptors, K-15 and K-4) as well as the BrahMos joint-venture cruise missile (interestingly, the BrahMos’ propulsion or rocket is Russia’s contribution to the system) use a strap-down Inertial Navigation System. As the name implies, the navigation system is strapped to the body of the missile itself. Given the technology improvements, the world over, strap-down is the popular INS used in aeroplanes and short range ballistic missiles alike as it is both cheap and easy to fabricate.

The exception are long-range ballistic missiles starting with 3,000km onwards which prefer to use a gimballed INS, which is both expensive and extremely difficult to engineer with only a handful of countries including China having them. Especially in ICBMs, no country uses a strap-down INS. In an acclaimed book titled ‘Strap-down Inertial Navigation Technology’, US scientists David Titterton and John Weston explain in detail why strap-down INS will not deliver the needed accuracy to long-range ballistic missiles even when using a nuclear warhead. There are simply too many systemic and atmospheric inaccuracies which multiply over the flight path of a long-range ballistic missile. Shouldn’t the DRDO be developing a gimballed INS before desiring to develop an Agni-6 or an ICBM?

More to the point, why does India need an Agni-6 or an ICBM when it has no global power aspirations and its defined adversaries are Pakistan and China, both of which are within the Agni series ballistic missile range? Given India’s defensive outlook, an Agni-6 has no strategic or operational logic. It is simply be an ego-booster without basis, needed propellant and navigation system.

It could be argued (as DRDO has done through a select media) that India needs Agni-6 with a larger three-ton payload to accommodate MIRVs. This is a fallacy. If indeed the DRDO desires to develop MIRVs, it could and should be done using the Agni-5 missile. It could because a 1.2 tonne warhead of Agni-5 can accommodate three MIRVs each with 20kt yield and 400kg weight. It should because unless the DRDO develops gimballed INS, it must not increase the range of ballistic missile meant to deliver MIRVs. The accumulated inaccuracies of long range ballistic missile will get transmitted to the MIRVs as well. In the larger sense, an Agni-6 or an ICBM will spur China to more openly support Pakistan with more strategic capabilities against India.

(The writer is a former Indian Army officer and now Editor, FORCE, a newsmagazine on national security)

Does military really recruit such jokers?
Regards.
Rajendra

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Sep 2013 20:13

pankajs wrote:Fully indigenous BrahMos missile to be rolled out in three years
KOCHI: A fully indigenous BrahMos missile will be rolled out in three years, according to A Sivthanu Pillai, CMD of the Indo-Russian joint venture company.

"We currently use fully indigenous steel for the missile. Now we are trying to undertake the integration part also at BrahMos," Pillai told reporters here.

"Efforts to make the missile engine at BrahMos will also be realized in three years. However, the explosive components of the missiles will be sourced from outside as we cannot handle explosives in our unit," he said.

When did Russia transfer us the tech for the liquid ramjet engine ??? Or is it the Indian engine that was in making ??? Also has the seeker been indigenized as well ??? IIRC two Indian companies Alpha Design and Data Patterns had proposed separate designs for the seeker any news about that ??? The article seems poorly written.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Sep 2013 20:24

Pravin Sawheny wrote: Compare this with an ICBM which travels 10,000km in 20 minutes and has its rocket burning for five minutes; the remaining 15 minutes flight of the ICBM payload is without power. The ICBM payload terminal speed, is greater (much more than double) than six kilometres per second.

Orbital velocity to Low Earth Orbit is ~7km/sec. At double the AV-2 speed of 6km/sec, the purported ICBM will send the payload into far earth orbit.

With such a bad grasp of physics the above article is a farticle.
So can be dismissed and confined to the trash archive.