Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Austin
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

^^ Will leave that to the MODS.

Air International Issue on Rafale

http://www.crocko.com/B2EF1D1E355F4FBF8 ... 306(1).rar
Viv S
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Austin wrote:Thats because there is no Plan B as IAF puts it.
Well the debate on this forum doesn't have to mirror or take precedence from IAF statements. The discussion/evaluation of the Eurofighter and Rafale for example started well before their inclusion in the competition. And if there's anything one can take away from the Arjun-saga, its that the armed forces are not infallible and debate here need not be restricted by their public statements.

Contract will get signed as and when both parties think its done and its not the first time we are seeing delays and MMRCA is by far the biggest deal till date so it will be delayed even trails were long and exhaustive.
Sure. But the PAKFA, F-35, Tejas development carries on unabated, as does the J-20 and J-31 development. We cannot overlook the changes in the environment under which the Rafale acquisition is being negotiated.

So if F-35 is plan B why not bring in J-20 , J-21 , PAK-FA and cancel the MMRCA and fund the AMCA in this debate.
Cancellation of the MMRCA is precisely what I'm suggesting and I'm not the first to do so. The F-35 is only one of the alternatives, the Su-30MKI, SH & Tejas Mk2 being others that have merited debate. Also, this being the MMRCA thread, or at least the successor to that, a possibly cancellation of the MMRCA is hardly irrelevant. It would have been different if this were the 'Rafale News Only (No discussion)' thread.

When we bought M2K we were were the first country after france to buy it and so was Mig-29 so if we are buying the Rafale its not the first time we are doing so.
Not the first time we've bought equipment from France, yes. Probably not the last time either.

That said, just upgrading the Mirage 2000 avionics cost us a pricey $50 million per aircraft. I'm surprised some members think that the Rafale can be had for under $100 million, all inclusive.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

My limited point is there is no Offical word on Cancellation of MMRCA deal and from all recent statements indeed IAF would like to see the Rafale deal get signed ASAP.

So as long as there is no intent to cancel MMRCA there is no need to bring in Plan B or F-35 to the debate.

IF there is merit in discussing a hypothetical Cancel MMRCA versus Plan B/F-35 then we need a separate thread MODS approving the same.

This thread should be limited to Rafale News and Discussion and Technical Merits or Demerits within existing IAF setup would make sense.

Bringing in F-15,Su-35 , F-35 etc simply derails it based on some Hypothetical assumption.
RKumar

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by RKumar »

Cross posting from http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1532301


India’s Share in Joint Fighter Project With Russia Likely to Growl

Positive talk but lets see if Russia walk based on the talk.
Please note : end price of each plane will be US 200 million as of today's estimates. (144 planes will cost US 25-30 billion)
MOSCOW, October 25 (RIA Novosti) – India’s share in research-and-development work for the joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project with Russia is currently limited by India's domestic industrial capabilities but will gradually increase with the project’s implementation, a Russian military expert said Friday.

India’s The Economic Times newspaper reported on October 17 that Indian military officials were concerned over the country’s work share in the FGFA project, which is currently only 15 percent even though New Delhi is bearing 50 percent of the cost.

According to the paper, India’s defense minister is expected to raise that issue during his visit to Russia beginning November 15.

“The figure cited by the Indian side reflects current capabilities of India’s industry, in particular the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] corporation,” said Igor Korotchenko, head of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Global Arms Trade.

“With the progress in the implementation of this project, we expect the Indian engineers and designers to approach the share determined in the [Russian-Indian] agreement: 50 percent,” Korotchenko said in an exclusive interview with RIA Novosti.

Russia will certainly provide all necessary knowledge and logistics support to Indian specialists, but developing skills and acquiring experience in design and development of advanced fighter aircraft takes a long time and substantial effort, the expert added.


The FGFA project began following a Russian-Indian agreement on cooperation in the development and production of the perspective multirole fighter, signed on October 18, 2007.

The Indian fighter jet will be based on the Russian single-seat Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter, which now has four prototypes flying, but it will be designed to meet about 50 specific requirements by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

In December 2010, Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Russian aircraft maker Sukhoi Company signed a preliminary design development contract worth $295 million for the new aircraft.

Currently the $11 billion final design and research-and-development contract is under negotiation between the two countries. The total program is expected to cost India about $25 billion to 30 billion.

The IAF had initially planned to order 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters, but India’s chief of air staff said in October last year that New Delhi would now go for only 144 single-seat jets, with domestic production slated to begin in 2020.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

The F-35 based on most sources of information has a far lower flyaway cost, albeit with higher operating costs.
That's untrue and that's precisely why Canada is planning to start an open competition and why Dassault think it has its chance. The rafale is by far cheaper to buy and operate.
Dassault Aviation SA (AM), maker of the Rafale combat jet, said Canada has commenced talks about an order for the plane as it reviews options amid mounting costs for the Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Discussions began in January, and Dassault considers the chances of Canada making a purchase sufficiently good that it’s willing to spend the money to undertake a sales campaign, the French company’s Chief Executive Officer Eric Trappier said.

Canada’s minister of public works and government services, Rona Ambrose, said Dec. 12 that the country had “hit the reset button” on a deal for 65 JSFs after consultant KPMG said the estimated $25 billion bill could jump to $46 billion.

“Canada was the first to raise difficult questions about the F-35 and we’ve been talking to them since the beginning of the year,” said Trappier, who was appointed Dassault’s CEO in January after Charles Edelstenne stepped down upon turning 75.

Other countries may be less inclined to consider breaking ranks with the U.S., the executive said at an earnings presentation near Paris, where Dassault in based.

While the JSF has 10 customers for the plane, Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Australia and Norway are full partners with a share of work on the project. Denmark, like Canada, holds the same status, and it, too, has re-opened the order process, while not including the Rafale.

Battle Proven

The Rafale’s performance in engagements in Libya and more recently in Mali, where France used the jet to help retake territory held by Islamic militants, will provide military officials with examples of its combat ability, Trappier said.

The F-35, the Pentagon’s costliest weapons system, hasn’t yet begun combat testing and isn’t scheduled to complete it until 2019, seven years later than planned, according to a recent report by Pentagon chief weapons tester Michael Gilmore.

Dassault was selected last year by India for the purchase of 126 Rafales, though is still negotiating the final deal. The jet has yet to conclude a single export contract, even though its predecessor, the Mirage, drew two-thirds of orders abroad.

The United Arab Emirates shortlisted the Rafale for a 60- plane deal, though other models are under consideration. The Dassault plane is also competing with the Boeing Co. (BA) F/A-18 Super Hornet and Saab AB (SAABB) Gripen for a contract in Brazil.

Dassault is currently producing 11 Rafales a year for the French government and couldn’t drop below that level without sacrificing quality, Trappier said after reporting a 25 percent jump in full-year net income to 524 million euros ($677 million), aided by the delivery of 66 Falcon corporate jets.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-1 ... -soar.html

See : Even Canada consider the rafale to challenge the F35...Must prove something.
- Given the delay in the contract, the technology isn't going to assimilated before 2020, therefore there being little that can be fed into the Tejas program. ToT isn't there for the heck of it. As far as the AMCA goes, its all but certain that a foreign consultant will brought onto the project, with Lockheed Martin the most likely candidate and Dassault the least likely.

- Rafale has an expected build order of only 225, compared to over 3000 for the F-35. To start with, its upgrades are bound to be pricier, on top of which Dassault will have an absolute monopoly, which its bound to exercise to the fullest extent possible.

- Bombing Libya is all well and good, but there is little to prove that a Rafale loaded with even minimal external stores can ingress highly defended airspace with first-rate ground and airborne surveillance systems networked into a very modern C4I system, reinforced by 4.5G as well as 5G fighters.
The first point is very weak : getting the capability to build a modern fighter is a long term effort. To believe once the LCA mk2 is done (which I don't believe) india would not need ToT is plain absurd. Just like saying LM will be AMCA consultant. This is all fanboy dreaming : LCA Mk2, AMCA....

Then India will have full access to the source codes which will allow to independently upgrade the rafale at lower costs if needed. This will not be possible with the F35.

To finish in a first tier defended airspace as you describe even the F35 will struggle and as describe in the above article, LM claims are far from being proven. with SCALP and AASM and a highly advanced EW system the rafale while not invincible like any aircraft has good assets as far as survivability is concerned.
Last edited by arthuro on 26 Oct 2013 17:42, edited 2 times in total.
arthuro
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

MMRCA Deal Will Be Inked Within This Financial Year: Air Marshal S Sukumar, Deputy Chief of Air Staff

Air Marshal S Sukumar, Deputy Chief of Air Staff said that MMRCA Deal Will Be Inked Within This Financial Year while speaking at Brochure Release of 8th International Conference on Energising Indian Aerospace Conference jointly organized by Confederation of Indian Industry, Indian Air Force & Centre for Air Power Studies at India Habitat Centre in New Delhi.[...]
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/10/ ... um=twitter
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by pragnya »

NRao wrote:The introduction of F-35 came in as a cost effective alternative. IF Dassault in its infinite wisdom had sold the Rafale for $10 billion there would be no talk of a F-35 as an alternative.
F 35 being cost effective alternative for whom?? are we privy to Lifecycle cost of Rafale or even the flyaway cost for that matter - as bid by Dassault??

what about CPFH?? isn't that part of total acquisition cost??

here check -

Image

part of Janes study for the Gripen as below -

go from here - first result - https://www.google.co.in/search?newwind ... 2A1asrcu3s

the figures can be corraborated from links which quote PEO C Bogdan of F 35 programme. ranges between $24000 as per the PEO and $31900 for F 35A version.

compare that to Rafale which ranges from $14000 (quoted in one link i gave you before which purportedly is for intense combat situation - Libya) to $16500.

are those good enough to see where the total acquisition cost for F 35 going to reach??

besides what TOT can we expect from USA forgetting for a moment EUMA/BECA/CISMOA etc..
The cost that Dassualt seems to be asking for is ridiculous. Not worth it. But, who knows what will happen. My bet is that GoI pay for it and Indian kids in 2040 will work to feed french kids.
as against American kids, yeah.
Last edited by pragnya on 26 Oct 2013 18:31, edited 2 times in total.
Viv S
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

arthuro wrote:That's untrue and that's precisely why Canada is planning to start an open competition and why Dassault think it has its chance. The rafale is by far cheaper to buy and operate.
The F-35 purchase was put under review because of public pressure generated by a great deal of negative publicity for the F-35 program as well as critical auditor reports (similar to those in the US). Both the govt and the RCAF wanted to continue the program.

Since, then costs have fallen, the program has gotten back on track, three new non-partner customers are on board, with half a dozen others likely to join them. Point is, you'll find Canada is sticking to the F-35 regardless.

But coming to costs, Dassault hasn't quoted any cost to Canada yet, so this is hardly evidence of the Rafale being an economical option.

The first point is very weak : getting the capability to build a modern fighter is a long term effort. To believe once the LCA mk2 is done (which I don't believe) india would not need ToT is plain absurd. Just like saying LM will be AMCA consultant. This is all fanboy dreaming : LCA Mk2, AMCA....
ToT isn't irreplaceable. The utility of foreign technology is bound to fall with time, especially when there is a domestic effort on going. The value of a certain bit of tech in 2020 isn't the same as it would have been in 2010.

As for the Tejas Mk2, your general beliefs aside, what aspect of the development (I'm assuming you're keeping with the specifics and not talking out of your hat) do you think is evidence of it being a product of 'fanboyism' rather than of deliberate effort over decades? Timelines? Technology? And please don't generalize.

Then India will have full access to the source codes which will allow to independently upgrade the rafale at lower costs if needed. This will not be possible with the F35.
On one hand, you want to claim that India doesn't have the technical competence to build a Tejas Mk2, and on the other you're suggesting it should independently upgrading the Rafale.

France is the type's primary user and vendor, so its incumbent upon the French to provide cost-effective upgrades to the aircraft, rather than expect its customers to adopt a do-it-yourself approach. With a fleet strength at just 225 aircraft (assuming there are no further cuts), its fairly obvious how well that will turn out. Case in point: $50 million to upgrade the Mirage 2000H.

To finish in a first tier defended airspace as you describe even the F35 will struggle and as describe in the above article, LM claims are far from being proven.
Struggle as much as the Rafale? Even you can't honestly believe that. There are still questions about its performance in air combat vis-a-vis enemy stealth fighters, but there is little doubt that its unparalleled as a strike aircraft, in a completely different league from the Rafale.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

The two huge issues with the JSF are US politics and lack of TOT ( which mean dependence on US for spares). Otherwise there is little doubt that when the JSF comes, being stealth, it will be far harder to deal with than a Rafale in BVR and can also be a possibly better striker against advanced IADS.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

pragnya wrote:
part of Janes study for the Gripen as below.
Assuming accurate figures above, the operating cost of the F-35 is $8000/hour more than the Rafale. Over a period of 6000 hours, that amounts of $48 million per aircraft.

That would barely cover the difference in acquisition cost. Add in the cost of upgrades/MLU, dropping operating and support costs, and the F-35 will comfortably work out to be cheaper.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by pragnya »

Viv S wrote:
pragnya wrote:
part of Janes study for the Gripen as below.
Assuming accurate figures above, the operating cost of the F-35 is $8000/hour more than the Rafale. Over a period of 6000 hours, that amounts of $48 million per aircraft.

That would barely cover the difference in acquisition cost. Add in the cost of upgrades/MLU, dropping operating and support costs, and the F-35 will comfortably work out to be cheaper.
surprising you say that. $48mil X 126 = $6048mil. if that is ok for you, i have nothing to say to you.

even LCA 1/2 will cost less than $48mil, i guess.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

pragnya wrote:surprising you say that. $48mil X 126 = $6048mil. if that is ok for you, i have nothing to say to you.

even LCA 1/2 will cost less than $48mil, i guess.
I suggest you read that post again, I don't think you got the point. $48 mil is the differential on purely operating cost, not total cost.


Also, believe me, I want stronger commitment to the Tejas from the IAF/MoD, as much as anybody else.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by pragnya »

Viv S wrote:I suggest you read that post again, I don't think you got the point. $48 mil is the differential on purely operating cost, not total cost.
i noted that. even if you separate operating cost from acquisition cost - it is still a cost which has to be borne by IAF. isn't it??

besides as i noted, we have no idea of flyaway, operating or acquisition cost of Rafale. we have some metrics abt CPFH which give an indiaction on operating cost though.
Also, believe me, I want stronger commitment to the Tejas from the IAF/MoD, as much as anybody else.
that i don't doubt at all. i note even in this debate, lot of +ve points you have made particularly wrt SU30MKI and LCA combo which i appreciate.

Viv, i have no issue with the debate which has been a good one in terms of aircraft comparison but F35 as a MMRCA is 'wishful thinking' when nothing is known about the deal which selected Rafale is going to be cancelled.

besides issues like TOT/BECA/CISMOA/EUMA all remain. even Americans have not spoken with any clarity on F35 offer which makes it even more irrelevant. besides IAF can't be expected to pack it's squadrons with too many 5th gen aircrafts like FGFA, F 35 forgetting AMCA for a moment (due to budgetetary reasons) - which is more important from an Indian POV.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Rahul M »

I think it's a valid point that F-35 is not a part of MRCA, shows no sign of being one and hence should not be discussed here.
especially since it has its dedicated thread.

in other words, no more F-35 discussion in this thread.
- Rahul.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Rahul M wrote:I think it's a valid point that F-35 is not a part of MRCA, shows no sign of being one and hence should not be discussed here.
especially since it has its dedicated thread.

in other words, no more F-35 discussion in this thread.
- Rahul.
What about the Super Hornet/Gripen or Tejas Mk2/Su-30MKI? Trouble is, any discussion of the MMRCA itself is incomplete without an analysis of all of India/IAF's alternatives. I think we need an MMRCA thread in addition to one for the Rafale.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

PAKFA has its own thread.
if you want , go ahead and start a Plan-B thread for MMRCA which can discuss all alternatives down to JF17.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Please continue the debate here -


Alternatives to MMRCA - News & Discussion
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Image
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Now only if they could find a good radar for it.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by negi »

Viv S wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I think it's a valid point that F-35 is not a part of MRCA, shows no sign of being one and hence should not be discussed here.
especially since it has its dedicated thread.

in other words, no more F-35 discussion in this thread.
- Rahul.
What about the Super Hornet/Gripen or Tejas Mk2/Su-30MKI? Trouble is, any discussion of the MMRCA itself is incomplete without an analysis of all of India/IAF's alternatives. I think we need an MMRCA thread in addition to one for the Rafale.
You know what why don't you even include F-22 in fact we should ditch the entire manned fighter program and go for a UCAV or wait it will be CHEAPER to mass produce Prithvi in numbers as production volumes bring down unit fly away COST . So Prithvi it is for the MMRCA , oh btw it has a bigger nose cone than Rafale and other fighter jets so it wins in that department too. COST and Nose cone that is all to MMRCA.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

that is a nice pic of rafale.. should be <100 ft above sea.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

French Rafale Production To End If No Exports
Dassault Aviation will end production of its Rafale combat fighter jet if France does not land any export orders, the country’s defense minister said on Wednesday [Dec. 6].

Construction would not stop until Dassault has completed an order from the French army for 180 planes, Gerard Longuet said. The last delivery is expected in 2021.

Dassault has struggled to find a foreign buyer for the multi-role Rafale, which is billed as one of the most effective fighters in the world but also one of the most expensive.

It faces tough competition from the Eurofighter—built by Britain’s BAE Systems, Italy’s Finmeccanica and European aerospace group EADS on behalf of Germany and Spain—Boeing’s F-18 and Sweden’s Saab Gripen.

A deal in the works since 2008 to sell at least 60 Rafales worth an estimated $10 billion to the United Arab Emirates was dealt a fresh blow last month when the UAE said proposed terms were “uncompetitive and unworkable”.

The Rafale lost out to the Gripen last month on a 22-plane order from Switzerland [more here, with tech details].

Earlier this year, France was close to a deal with Brazil before the government delayed a decision on replacing its fleet of Mirage 2000 jet fighters until at least 2012 [tons more here from Defense Industry Daily]…
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by chackojoseph »

Even if they win Indian order, they will have to close production lines as only 18 will be manufactured in France. Even if they bag 1 export order, they might be afloat for max 2-3 years.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

well french production will then eventually end after few more years if they get IAF order.. in the sense, the first 18 will be assembled, and the rest has to be done in desh.. However, it remains to be seen (wonder why no media is interested in digging the details about ToT - what component, technology, production, import component %, etc). still, i'd only see french sub-component manufacturers surviving with Indian order than Rafale assembly at france, if no other orders come by.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

I think it would have been better if India had ruled to talk with both Dassualt and EADS at the same time.

I bet if these talks fail that talks with EADS will be no better.

I feel that if teh talks with Dassualt do nto materialize then India should scrap the MMRCA effort and look elsewhere.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

it seems the RBE2AA has found a new application - in upg Altantinque planes!
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/17956-017956/
France Upgrading its Atlantique Maritime Patrol Planes

Oct 06, 2013 18:05 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff

As the so-called government shutdown continues, maybe the Americans should take a leaf from the French. Instead of allowing a refusal to negotiate with the House of Representatives to shut down government web sites, they could just copy France’s defense minister and Dassault Aviation – who announced their upgrade deal for France’s Atlantique 2 maritime patrol aircraft via Twitter.

France is the latest country to discover the usefulness of maritime patrol aircraft over land, as Atlantique aircraft over Mali went beyond mere surveillance to deliver “buddy-designated” Paveway-II laser guided bombs. DGA head Laurent Collet-Billon likened the plane to a Swiss Army Knife, and the experience helped push Atlantique modernization to the front of the budget queue…


Even so, the fleet’s modernization was cut back from 18 planes to just 2/3 (15) of France 22-plane fleet. Work on the EUR 400 million contract will be conducted by co-contractors Dassault Aviation and Thales, in partnership with DCNS and SIAé.

Work is expected to include deep structural refurbishment, in order to extend service life to around 2032. The planes will also receive a completely new suite of sensors, controlled by a new combat system.

That combat system has been expected to be Thales’ AMASACOS, developed under Turkey’s Meltem maritime patrol aircraft contracts. Instead, however, Dassault Aviation will use the DCNS’ LOTI (Logiciel Opérationnel de Traitement de l’Information) mission software as the base, and will be responsible for subsystems integration and the conversion of a flight-test demonstrator aircraft.

DCNS will develop their LOTI combat system software, which provides the overall tactical picture and manages weapons deployment.

Thales will still have a significant role. The Atlantique’s new radar system will be based on technologies developed for the Rafale fighter’s new RBE2-AA AESA radar, and Thales will add its own IFF systems. Below the waves, the new Atlantiques will rely on the STAN digital acoustic processing subsystem, which aims to detect targets over wider frequency ranges to counter new types of threats.

France’s SIAé support service will be responsible for developing the upgraded tactical display consoles, and managing full-rate aircraft upgrade operations.

Once the modifications are done, the refurbished turboprops will join France’s small fleet of converted Falcon 50 business jets.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Austin »

SaiK wrote:However, it remains to be seen (wonder why no media is interested in digging the details about ToT - what component, technology, production, import component %, etc). still, i'd only see french sub-component manufacturers surviving with Indian order than Rafale assembly at france, if no other orders come by.
MMRCA TOT wise has less to offer but 50 % is the offset value.

But the red lines from India are complete access to source code , integrating of weapons of choice and Freedom of Use ...TOT like MKI deal will grow with Time and its also a factor of how soon Govt Agency and Private manuf will be able to absorb and assimilate them. There will be some base line figure to start with then it will grow as we get local manuf that can develp these from TOT provided and assuming that some of the component will also economical to produce those within the country.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by rohitvats »

Karan M wrote:The two huge issues with the JSF are US politics and lack of TOT ( which mean dependence on US for spares). Otherwise there is little doubt that when the JSF comes, being stealth, it will be far harder to deal with than a Rafale in BVR and can also be a possibly better striker against advanced IADS.
A nation which refuses to sell the required number of Javelin ATGM because it might affect the 'strategic balance' in sub-continent does not have my vote for something as critical as MMRCA. Period.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

rohitvats wrote:
Karan M wrote:The two huge issues with the JSF are US politics and lack of TOT ( which mean dependence on US for spares). Otherwise there is little doubt that when the JSF comes, being stealth, it will be far harder to deal with than a Rafale in BVR and can also be a possibly better striker against advanced IADS.
A nation which refuses to sell the required number of Javelin ATGM because it might affect the 'strategic balance' in sub-continent does not have my vote for something as critical as MMRCA. Period.
It was reported that the Russians declined consulting on the LCA - the person stated that the Russians then said: ask us a question and we may respond. they were then rightly concerned about India becoming self sufficient in an area that they had been making money.

Every nation acts in their own self interest, India may be the only one that could be an exception. It is a game that has to be played. When emotins get in the middle the entity getting emotional looses out.

I am dead sure if India were to act in her own self interest she will do just great.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

NRao wrote:Every nation acts in their own self interest, India may be the only one that could be an exception. It is a game that has to be played. When emotins get in the middle the entity getting emotional looses out.

I am dead sure if India were to act in her own self interest she will do just great.
True. However, the reason why the Americans would do something this stupid evades me. And indeed 'stupid' is the only way to describe it; after all the ATGMs are specifically for use on the western front, and that 'balance of power' is already so lopsided as to make this one sale meaningless, to add to which we'd have easily gotten a near-comparable system from Israel, no (stupid) questions asked.

Its possible that some political appointee in the administration got carried away without understanding the implications (as happened with the LM2500 turbine sale), while the industry grit its teeth. Fortunately though the system does self-correct and the mechanisms put in place by the outgoing Ashton Carter should ensure no irritants of this sort arise in the future.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

True. However, the reason why the Americans would do something this stupid evades me.
Simple.

No nation is a monolith. So, as an example let us take the US. "US" includes the White House (with a President, the NSA, multiple advisers - including the Sec of State, def, etc), the Sate department, the Defense Department, other Departments and then the Congress, finally vendorS (they all compete and push for their own gizmos). They ALL influence a decision - one way or another.

So, in the case of this ATGM, IIRC, it was the State that made that statement and put a stop (it has that power). BUT, it does not mean that the Defense Department was against it, nor does it mean that the vendor was against it. I do not know about the White House - where they stood.

As an aside, the India-US dance problem - as I see it - is India. I was told some time back that the Bill Clinton Foundation actually held a "course" in ND telling Indians how to lobby in the US - something India never does to her full potential.

The next time "Americans" do something that India considers stupid, find the source of that stupidity and attack it via a fully documented system already in place and see what happens.

But do not attribute a decision coming out of DC to mean that all of America is against it. That is stupid in itself.

WRT the ATGM incidence I bet that PACOM would have sent a team free of cost to train the Indian Army on using this ATGM. Point being PACOM is so very pro India. (While I am dead sure Kerry the SD man, is equally anti India.) Deal with it. Like I said it is JUST a game. play it.

KEEP those emotions (stupid) aside and you will just be fine. Indians get too emotional in such matters and goof things up. "period" - that kills every other option India has right there.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by negi »

NRao you refuse to see things the way they are. KaranM made a simple point; MKI and other programs are examples where Ru is different from US seriously how hard is it to understand and more importantly concede in a discussion or debate ? I am not saying people need to reconsider their stand for despite data there is an element of bias that governs a person's stand but when it comes to plain and simple facts there is no room for turning a blind eye to them.

Your rest of points are FAR from reality there are no EMOTIONs here as such , on BRF it is not our headache to worry about US interests it has enough well wishers and people to take care of it's interests. That strawman argument that oh but US is only taking care of it's interests is a point which has been brought on this forum by many when there is no where else to go in a debate. Likewise Pakistan is only taking care of it's interests by investing in terrorist infa against India because that helps it's image of a suicidal crazy rogue state that gets a ransom from USA for keeping the leash only as long as the sub-continent .
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

NRao wrote:No nation is a monolith. So, as an example let us take the US. "US" includes the White House (with a President, the NSA, multiple advisers - including the Sec of State, def, etc), the Sate department, the Defense Department, other Departments and then the Congress, finally vendorS (they all compete and push for their own gizmos). They ALL influence a decision - one way or another.
No dispute here. Hopefully the DTI once signed, will reduce the chances of the US administration shooting itself in the foot again.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

NRao you refuse to see things the way they are.
No problems.

Just that I - in real life - face these problems. Not just "India". So, take that for what it is worth.
KaranM made a simple point; MKI and other programs are examples where Ru is different from US seriously how hard is it to understand and more importantly concede in a discussion or debate ?
OK, I concede. (I do not know what KaranM stated, but the MKI was way different - it was more political at that time, not technical. But regardless.) Let us move on. Agree to disagree.
Your rest of points are FAR from reality there are no EMOTIONs here as such
I can only respond to what I read. Apologies.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Viv S wrote:
NRao wrote:No nation is a monolith. So, as an example let us take the US. "US" includes the White House (with a President, the NSA, multiple advisers - including the Sec of State, def, etc), the Sate department, the Defense Department, other Departments and then the Congress, finally vendorS (they all compete and push for their own gizmos). They ALL influence a decision - one way or another.
No dispute here. Hopefully the DTI once signed, will reduce the chances of the US administration shooting itself in the foot again.
Or an AKA shooting India in the foot.

Both sides have enough yahoos to bring any agreement down being the point. IF India wants to wade through this huge mess it will take gigantic effort for sure and certainly, IMHO, pointing fingers will never produce any results. It will only slow the process down perhaps to a grinding halt.

But no matter what the two nations will get closer, but that is different than achieving an agreement on any form of partnership.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

NRao wrote: Every nation acts in their own self interest, India may be the only one that could be an exception. It is a game that has to be played. When emotins get in the middle the entity getting emotional looses out.
Amreeka is a nation which not only acts on its own self interest, but also of pakistan's self interest..........
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Dhananjay wrote:
NRao wrote: Every nation acts in their own self interest, India may be the only one that could be an exception. It is a game that has to be played. When emotins get in the middle the entity getting emotional looses out.
Amreeka is a nation which not only acts on its own self interest, but also of pakistan's self interest..........
Totally agree. But they are acting in their interests and it has hurt, hurts India tremendously. Russia selling aircraft engines to Pakistan hurts India. China acting to support Pakistan hurts India. Franc selling subs to Pakistan hurts India. Sweden ........... Yes, it does.

There is a Venn diagram there. And, as I have been saying there is a Venn diagram between the US and India too that India needs to take advantage of. The overlap in the case of US-Pakiland has been shrinking and that in the case of US-India has been growing. It will change over time. Which way it goes has to be dictated by Indians too.

Finally, that is something I have been hearing since 1995 (around the time I joined BR). So, do something to change that totally in favor of India. Only Indians can do that. Stop watching cricket, stop watching Bollywood movies, partying, join the Amm Admi Party, I do not what, but do something and stop repeating the obvious. Else in 10 years we will be posting the same.

I hope you understand that - I do NOT expect anyone here to agree with me, I am not looking convince anyone here.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by vishvak »

Pakis also get more hardware during war from ummah brotherhood. Plus total radio silence favour from fourfathers for example Hindu genocide in east Pakistan.

One can't understand how no one knows what's going on with pukis which is simplistic scenario; reality being all fourfathers are hand in glove with pakigs along with ummah brotherhood. We have two nuclear powers on borders with paki peaceful arsenal being India specific. No one talks of nuke black market by pakis or how pakis got nukes and missiles in the first place. 'International' opinion seem to ignore all this.

Please lets not say it is like that only and sab chaltaa he only when reality is that it is ongoing process in international arena to play favourites with pakigs for decades now while ignoring outright terrorism from across the border. The fourfathers of pakigs and others like ummah brotherhood is doing this for decades while preaching others and even ignoring terrorism of pakigs.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

NRao wrote:Totally agree. But they are acting in their interests and it has hurt, hurts India tremendously. Russia selling aircraft engines to Pakistan hurts India. China acting to support Pakistan hurts India. Franc selling subs to Pakistan hurts India. Sweden ........... Yes, it does.
Other countries sell. US donates. Big difference.
US also plays a role in intervening in Indo-Pak conflict, others dont.
Finally, that is something I have been hearing since 1995 (around the time I joined BR). So, do something to change that totally in favor of India. Only Indians can do that. Stop watching cricket, stop watching Bollywood movies, partying, join the Amm Admi Party, I do not what, but do something and stop repeating the obvious. Else in 10 years we will be posting the same.
Agreed. India too needs to change (though not joining the AAP, that would be a disaster)..
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