Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

[Prasad]

Asking questions of Modi and wondering what he is doing isn't being anti-national. I thought our members were that understanding. Nobody is saying Modi is beyond question or that he is the same level as congress and hence doesn't deserve to be PM either. Since explanation from bjp's side is not forthcoming, these questions arise. This could've been a perfect case to showcase Modi's effectiveness at working government machinery to help a young woman being hounded by a lecherous babu. That is what nags me, personally. That if things did indeed happen for the good, it isn't being used as well as it should be for his cause.

[Yagnasri]

No one in press is willing to privately meet the girl father and find out true picture. Why? The truth is she was under a serious threat from powerful burocrat whose brother is IPS. In this conditions father requested and govt did what needs to be done. Girl is now married and living happily.

Now all kinds of things by people like Srikumar Cia agent and mafia ladies are making so many things out of it.

BY THE WAY THURD LIFT THE NATION AND NOT TRACEABLE. IN CANADA?

[darshhan]

India News TV left no stone unturned in showing AAP for what they really are in their show.

PS: Arnab is online and looks menacing

India News is owned by Vinod Sharma (Congress leader from Haryana). He is also the father of Manu Sharma. His another son Kartik sharma looks after media operations( India News and NewsX)

[Arjun]

Narendrabhai is no Sri Rama or SriKrishna.He hardly has any Bhima,Arjuna,Yudhishtra,Satyaki by his side.In our euphoria for Narendrabhai and our disgust/hatred for Congress,we cannot dismiss troubling questions being asked.

As a Hindu nationalist,I care too hoots for the campaign against modi on Gujarat riots.It was a surcharged situation.Cong is guilty a million times over on similar issues.But on ordinary governance,there has to be rule of law.India is a diverse society and extraordinarily difficult to govern but thats not excuse for arbitrariness.

1. If there is a crime that has happened, surely there must be a victim. Where is that victim ? The supposed 'victim' has clearly stated that she is not one and she /her family had requested the surveillance.

2. The writer is bringing up a false equivalence between cases of corruption in the UPA and this particular case of 'violation of privacy'. This is absolutely wrong. Corruption is a clear-cut violation of rules that has no excuses whatsoever. However, the matter of individual privacy and certain human rights are always to be weighed against the need for ensuring security. POTA, intrusive security checks at airports etc are all examples of certain human privileges being revoked at certain times due to the need for ensuring security to the populace. So to claim that right to privacy is a basic right that can never be tampered with is again not something I personally subscribe to. The executive must weigh at all times the conflicting goals of privacy / human rights and that of security for the populace. When threat perception is low the pendulum can swing towards higher privacy - and when threat perception is high the pendulum can and must swing towards lower privacy as required to ensure higher security.

[Pratyush]

Prasad, modi is no saint. But, compared to the congis he is a paragom of virtue. Furthermore, why should he speak and be drawn in the sikular trap.

Just to satisfy our ego's. I dont think so. This is just another trap. Just as the whole apology for 2002 is.

[Karan M]

Dear Prasadji

Do you seriously think that even 10% of BJPs explanations get through to the MSM? Whatever Modi does now, will be twisted to keep the news alive.

By now you should know that pretty much everything from the media is vetted by multiple levels of censorship and then allowed through. Its only that they can't do the same to online comments thanks to costs and time issues, that allow even free comments to get through. # Paidmedia is a fact of life and its high time folks realized this.

Seriously, queries like svenkats - which querulously expect "gurus" to give #cleanchit to Modi, when he should be aware by now of what is going on .. do none of us any favors. It just shows how gullible the Indian electorate is, that they fall for every non issue that even when a CM attempts to help a father, even that has to be debated on..if this is our condition as nationalists, one can only imagine how bad the situation elsewhere is. And instead of being firm about such issues, we too have get caught up in pointless nitpicking all gleefully planted by a paid media.

[member_22539]

^+1. It is just maddening to see how easily people fall for this stuff. It is like these people have ADHD and have to be lectured again and again to no avail. I just find it unfortunate that such behavior is not as prevalent on the other side as it is on ours.

[Prasad]

No saar. MSM is $hit who twist and lie. There are tons of people on social media who can carry the message and spread it far and wide. The whole TT issue too blew up when it spread through twitter. Without it, I'm sure it would've been dead and buried. Modi may or may not be a saint and imo is far better than anyone Cong puts up as PM candidate.

[member_22539]

^Regardless, SM does not reach the masses who are deprived of the Internet and in the end it does cause some damage and consequently some benefit to the congis. Hence, the best approach would be to not add fuel to the fire and just ignore such an allegation that would be scoffed at and disregarded as dirty politics by most BJP/Modi voters and potential voters. Those likely to be influenced by such propaganda will be more influenced if this gets dragged on and on for weeks, rather than if it is given a quick burial. Essentially, the congis/paidmedia wants to put BJP/Modi on the defensive and we know how that would be to play their game under their rules. The only way to win is to take the offensive and that is not done by replying to such frivolous allegations.

[Singha]

I would agree the best course of action is for namo to keep quiet for these trap issues. because whatever he says will be twisted and more explanations demanded. instead do what PVNR made an art form of - say nothing.

[Prasad]

Sadly, the scourge that is congress prevents moving forward in many ways. I see your reason for keeping mum.

[SaiK]

may be modi start doing things that can be twisted for the actual message he wants to spread.

starts every speech with a shreek sound - "Allah o Akbar!"
start going to churches and mosques
shows kangrez his other cheek, when his earlier cheek was verbally slapped at
display to the world how mosquitoes bite him
how to eat biskqoot?
walks, bicycles, two wheels to places that has horrible roads
uses a public sauchalya
bribes in front of camera at a local gov affice/utility/services, what not..
tears up a kangrez hand poster on the street
sit with chaiwala and smokes beedi
snoop on college girls
whistle in the streets like a rowdy
utter bad words after being drunk
threaten voters if they don't vote for him, their life is done with no booze nor milk
sit with ration shop owners, and siphon off rationed produce to be sold at higher rate
have zarda and spit on all white walls
join in hartals, rasta rokos, and do kajriwala and hazare style stunts
do satyagraha and go to haspataal - repeat and become brain dud
do salam to all afsars who collect mamool
....

[kumarn]

People are equating a speeding ticket with murder and arson, preparing the ground to proclaim "sab saale chor hain"... sad!

[Santosh]

Minority group sets terms for votes- Charity ties support to UPA to fulfilment of some promises within three months

Is that even constitutional? Someone should slap a PIL on these ********.

[disha]

I am interested in Arjunji/RajeshAji/ramanaji and other gurus views on this episode.

SVenkat'ji., raking in mud is easy. That is what IE does. Here is what I posted 3 pages back and please do read:

And Snoopgate explained:

And BTW, this is how allegations into Sexual harassment are handled.

http://www.niticentral.com/2013/11/21/a ... 59988.html

A hypothetical look at the ‘snooping’ case
Kartikeya Tanna21 Nov 2013

Note: This hypothetical is fictional unless proved in the days / months to come that it does bear resemblance to the truth.

A young lady working on a Government project is required to have several meetings with politicians and bureaucrats. During one of the meetings with a bureaucrat, the latter develops a fancy for her. He tries to get her attention in different ways. Seeing that none of those ways work, the lecherous bureaucrat starts stalking her and indirectly threatening her. Believable so far? Sexual harassment at workplace is awfully common.

The lady is seriously troubled on what she should do. Should she talk to her parents about this? Her father knows the Chief Minister. May be, that might help. She tells this to her parents after which her father talks to the CM hopeful that the CM will understand the seriousness of this harassment and rein in on the lecherous bureaucrat.

As the Chief Minister is told of this, he intends to do his own inquiry. Before any action can be taken against an officer in his Government, the CM should be convinced that what he has heard is indeed true.

What does he do? The complaint by the lady and/or her father is pretty serious. Confronting the bureaucrat head on might lead to a ‘your word against mine’ duel. The Chief Minister asks his trusted lieutenant to verify whether all this is true. The lieutenant, possibly unbeknownst to the CM, adopts the quickest way of finding it out – surveillance on the victim and the bureaucrat.

Indeed, the legality of such surveillance is highly suspect. However, going through the authorisation channels carries the risk of alerting the bureaucrat. As it so happens, his brother is at a high position in the State police. He also has a lot of friends within the bureaucracy who owe him favours.

Also of concern is the fact that, doing a special favour to someone using State resources just because he is known to the Chief Minister, even if for a benevolent purpose, might not be entirely appropriate. Having said that, the bureaucrat is vengeful and his threats are rather serious.

The lieutenant contacts a trusted IPS officer to have his team keep a tab on the bureaucrat and the lady when she visits Gujarat. As it turns out, the bureaucrat is, in fact, harassing her. The bureaucrat is told to back off.

The trusted cop who kept the surveillance, hands over a copy of his conversations with the Chief Minister’s lieutenant to the investigating agency which is actually investigating a crime totally unrelated to this surveillance. Somehow, these conversations are leaked and the media picks up the story.

Around the time the bureaucrat is told to back off, he and his brother faced state action for alleged wrongs and illegalities. Not taking this lying down, he cooked up a story that, in fact, the lady had a liaison with the Chief Minister. He also went to the extent of saying that there is an explicit video of the lady with some person doing the rounds on the Internet despite knowing full well that such an insinuation can irreversibly impair her reputation. All this is said in the form of an affidavit before a court with utter consciousness that the affidavit will and can easily become public.

Yet, for much of the media, the one who assaulted the dignity and invaded the privacy of the woman isn’t him who makes a wild and irreversibly damaging assertion in his affidavit about the explicit video involving the lady. It isn’t even his lawyer, a self-styled champion of human rights, who shamefully lets that assertion be a part of court record much to the chagrin of the judges!

For the media, the one who is guilty of invading the privacy of the lady is the Chief Minister and his lieutenant. For them, the bureaucrat is the proverbial David and the Chief Minister and his Government the mighty Goliath. Of course, how can an all-powerful Chief Minister be the one wronged here? Some who abhor the Chief Minister use all kinds of flowery adjectives to describe him and the surveillance. Various human rights bodies manned by the Chief Minister’s rivals spring into action.

Amidst this noise and sensation, the lady’s father pleads to the media and the organisations to leave her daughter alone. He had felt immense relief when his daughter got protection from the vengeful bureaucrat and got married. He is now in despair. Those he isn’t asking protection or support from aren’t willing to cede to him his and his daughter the right to refuse this deceptive act of gratuity.

[disha]

People are equating a speeding ticket with murder and arson, preparing the ground to proclaim "sab saale chor hain"... sad!

Hmmm

Actual analogy will be "People riding on donkeys are calling horse riders as speed demons while other donkey riders indulge in rape, murder and arson.

[disha]

Sadly, the scourge that is congress prevents moving forward in many ways. I see your reason for keeping mum.

Prasad'ji.,

How do you handle a sexual misconduct allegation against a top bureaucrat with his own brother being DGP?

Let me give you a true-life incidence. I was working for this NGO which in turned worked with the Government and hence we worked with top bureaucrat and sometimes directly with ministers. On one of the projects., we had this "peculiar" IAS afsar monitoring the project and he was a bi-sexual. He had a proclivity to go and "hug tightly" every body who he deemed was "nubile" (any good looking boys as well). And the nature of the project involved interacting with college going kids (some 19-20 year olds - girls and boys alike).

Imagine receiving tight hugs everyday - day in and day out whenever this guy was in a happy mood. That sir is sexual harassment and everybody knows it -up and down the chain!

So if you daughter/son/niece/nephew/wife/sister would be part of the project (because they need the project for 1000s of reasons - like completing their studies or getting credentials or promotions) - how would you handle it?

[svenkat]

dishaji,
Thanks a lot.I didnt read your post,my mistake.I will edit my post.

[kittoo]

AAP is finished. Notice how all their supporters on this forum are finished as well. Buncha crooks.

I would not be so sure. At least on my FB feed, there is again a surge of AAP support from quite a few IIM/IIT guys (and a couple of other guys). They just dont care about the sting operation or charges against AAP (rather, they claim that these are BJP/Congress conspiracies and just dismiss them). When I post links about AAP being minority-appeasing or their socialist policies being a disaster, I either get no reply or sometimes someone says that everyone has to take populist measures to survive in Indian politics. Thats it! AAP has really played game on some of the most educated ones. We should not underestimate them.

[Santosh]

Twitter is overflowing with negative reactions on #AAP. Not one positive tweet on entire page. If twitter is any indication AAP is toast. I hope Kejriwal gets thrown in jail for all the fraud being committed by AAP.

[Singha]

AAP will attract a few super educated elites just as the naxals once attracted some of the cream of kolkata students. firebrand socialism in theory sounds very attractive, in practice in a poor country it has always been a disaster.

[Sanku]

AAP will attract a few super educated elites just as the naxals once attracted some of the cream of kolkata students. firebrand socialism in theory sounds very attractive, in practice in a poor country it has always been a disaster.

Yes, the IIT-IIM crowd are salivating over him + a few wannabe IITian types. The joke is, their own personal preferences in economics, nationalism, governance is 180* of what they strongly believe in. They are just going by "sounds like a honest person who wants to change and his not corrupt, lets give him a chance"

Sometime I think higher education in India comes with a free lobotomy.

[Karan M]

AAP will attract a few super educated elites just as the naxals once attracted some of the cream of kolkata students. firebrand socialism in theory sounds very attractive, in practice in a poor country it has always been a disaster.

its amazing how these super brains can crack all competitive exams, get plum stuff and even rise by hook or crook.. but then suddenly discover a "soul" and go naxal on everyone else...

[Singha]

........and preferably from safe perch in sfo, nyc, london, singapore, hk not from india.

[disha]

its amazing how these super brains can crack all competitive exams, get plum stuff and even rise by hook or crook.. but then suddenly discover a "soul" and go naxal on everyone else...

Because they think they are right and rest are all wrong and stupid. It gives them a moral authority to lord over others - forgetting that their route is well laid into the same cesspool in which they profess never to step in.

[Rahul M]

#AAP ki adalat

https://twitter.com/anuraagdamle/status ... 5223054336

[RajeshA]

svenkat ji,

all of us Indians are following the electoral battle from slightly different vantage points, and it is not leaving any of us as a neutral uninterested party. I can only produce my PoV here.
I consider the present electoral battle really a war between forces of Bharatiyata versus forces of Colonialism, which fight under the banner of Nehruvianism, an ideology determined to reformat the hard disk of our civilization. I know on which side I stand.

I would use an analogy.

Let's suppose we are having an Indo-Pak war, and Pakis are suddenly finding out that instead of 10 Hindus equal to one Momeen, we are indeed a formidable enemy, led by a formidable general. So the Pakistani Army is trying out the tactic of dressing up like friendly Bhutanese tribesmen, crying foul about the tactics of our general, and trying to turn us against our general.

They are saying they have evidence that our general likes to poke his nose and whether we really want to be led by a general who has so many buggers in his nose.

So we get this continuous propaganda.

As far as I am concerned, I want to see Lanka burn and destroyed, I want to see Ravan dead, and only once Shri Rama is sitting on the throne of Ayodhya, am I willing to bicker about whether he should have accepted Sita back or not, or whether his roads are world quality.

Congressis want that the Snow Ball should not gather momentum. It should pause and think about the purity of the stone at its core. I wouldn't want to do that now. The momentum is gathering and Bharatiyas are ready for the electoral war.

[svenkat]

RajeshAji,
That is an accurate description.

And I have deleted the original article by PB Mehta after seeing dishajis post.So no issues at all with the bwahwa called Snoopgate.Its only showing to what depths Cong has descended.

[panduranghari]

AAP is finished. Notice how all their supporters on this forum are finished as well. Buncha crooks.

I would not be so sure. At least on my FB feed, there is again a surge of AAP support from quite a few IIM/IIT guys (and a couple of other guys). They just dont care about the sting operation or charges against AAP (rather, they claim that these are BJP/Congress conspiracies and just dismiss them). When I post links about AAP being minority-appeasing or their socialist policies being a disaster, I either get no reply or sometimes someone says that everyone has to take populist measures to survive in Indian politics. Thats it! AAP has really played game on some of the most educated ones. We should not underestimate them.

AAp wont win Delhi. If they dont, they are finished. What happened yesterday is a nail in its coffin.

[Pratyush]

^^^

Lets wait for the election results to be declared. It is too early to say what will happen to the AAP. Until the votes have been cast. In some circles, AAP had a lot of support. It is too early to say, what will the effect of these stings be.

BJP, needs to focus on winning the election. Such issues will help, but it must energize its campaign. Don't let up, no mercy no prisoners.

[Lilo]

RajeshAji,
That is an accurate description.

And I have deleted the original article by PB Mehta after seeing dishajis post.So no issues at all with the bwahwa called Snoopgate.Its only showing to what depths Cong has descended.

^ SV ji,
The article was by PB Mehta , so the critique by others applies to him alone. So my view is to not to delete your posted quotes or articles .

question to Modi
Pratap Bhanu Mehta : Wed Nov 20 2013, 00:11 hrs

Evasion or silence cannot be a response to the surveillance controversy.

The late Edward Kennedy once said that “integrity is the lifeblood of democracy. Deceit is a poison in its vein”. Perhaps it is a sign of how accustomed we have become to poison in our institutions that the mere discovery of poison begets more of it. The latest allegations against Amit Shah in the wake of the Cobrapost tapes certainly suggest this. Let us at once acknowledge that the facts, as we know them, may be incomplete, that the parties which engaged in the expose may be motivated. {If you yourself know that "facts" are incomplete and issue is politically motivated , why then pen a farticle and make a fool of yourself .. Hain ji?} But the conduct of the BJP suggests that the crisis we face is not just about how we determine guilt or innocence. It is far worse. The BJP does not even seem to try and understand the relevant moral distinctions. And in the process it is also displaying colossal political myopia.

The issue is grave. A state government subjects a young woman to extraordinary, invasive and meticulous surveillance of a kind that should make partisans for liberty shudder. The Gujarat government seems to take an unusual interest in this case; Amit Shah’s personal monitoring is of the order you would expect for a major national security threat. And the surveillance seems to have been done at someone’s behest. Perhaps there is a plausible explanation for all this. But the BJP’s response, rather than clarifying matters, has exemplified the rot in the system {gotta leave it to a CongI faithful to pick such a frivolous issue targeting a BJP govt to make a stale and well known point about our institutional rot leaving aside the A-Z listing of scams occurred under the CongI system} at multiple levels. It has personified every fault of the Congress, and then some.

First, there is the bizarre confusion of the personal and the political, as if the state was someone’s personal fiefdom. If indeed there were good reasons to engage in the surveillance, the government of Gujarat could have simply explained its position.{A govt is under no compulsion to explain every minor executive decision to constitutional nonentities , it is accountable only to the legislature or the judiciary of the land not PB Mehta or his Paid "Media Trial" }It could have argued that it was done in accordance with all existing procedures, and after passing all the checks and balances required for such surveillance under current laws. Instead of the government answering the case, as it should have, the party did. And in its defence it produced a letter written by the father saying that the girl in question needed security of some sort, and condemned the use of the issue by vested interests. In a way, this confirmed the revelations rather than contested them. Even assuming the sincerity of the letter, the issue of law and principles is not settled. The nature of the surveillance, the agencies conducting it and the nature of the information being sought seem so wildly disproportionate to the purported request. And the surrounding conversation makes the issue murky, to say the least. But more importantly, if there was indeed good reason, it still needed to go through the proper process of authorisation. Those processes are the only thin safeguards that supposedly distinguish us from a Stasi-style regime. And the government, not the party, needs to defend it on those grounds.

The second line of attack was so silly that you almost think the Gujarat government is being set up by the party. This was the argument that no one else has a locus standi, if the girl or her family is not complaining. This is morally otiose. If there is a violation of settled procedure, a violation of fundamental rights, or an abuse of state power, it becomes a matter of public concern and principle. There is also the morally troubling issue that the woman’s agency seems to be so totally sidelined in all of this. Even without revealing identities, it should have been simple to establish that she felt threatened or that there was some reason why she made the request.

Then there is Narendra Modi’s response, or rather lack of it.{For someone who haunts the dillibilli corridors of power, Mr PB Mehta seems to be strangely unfamiliar with political etiquette 101 to be making such an accusation , why should Mr Modi dignify such wild and baseless accusations on his character for the sake of a mere paid "Media Trial" , if you are so concerned as a private citizen you may file a PIL and make the courts to accept the case , then if the courts arraign Mr Modi as a defendant to the case , only then can you can expect to hear Mr Modi's explanation, up to any point till then the defendant as a matter of basic judicial principle has the right to remain silent } In case he has forgotten, he was and still is chief minister of Gujarat. A question is being addressed to him in that capacity. Instead, he and his defenders have done everything they accuse the Congress of. First, allege a conspiracy. Then impugn the motives of those who bring the message. Allege personal targeting. Then argue that the matter is sub judice. And then the head of government refuses to give a straight, defensible answer. What exactly did he know about the alleged misdemeanour in his government? Then use every trick but totally miss the point. And finally, total blindness to the political context of this debate. If the yardstick of what counts as an acceptable answer is taken from this case then the BJP needs to shut up about almost every charge of corruption it is hurling at the Congress. Institutions and leaders have lost credibility, because instead of displaying integrity and the straightforward exercise of public reason, they have been hiding behind a combination of arcane legal evasion, silence and mendacity. In this case, the BJP has repeated the same thing.

But the fallout from this is disturbing in other ways. It is a measure of the Congress’s decimation of institutional credibility that the BJP manages to portray what the Gujarat government did as normal. In India, there is way too little outrage at the ease with which states violate privacy rights. Not one party is serious about forward-looking reform in this area. But in this case, there are questions about the CBI. Why does it not seem to file appropriate charges? Why does it seem to conveniently leak information? The “Congress is bad” defence does not exonerate the BJP; being equally bad is not good enough for our times. But it does show the extent to which all matters of principle are now compromised by partisan warfare.{well sir you and congress both can be held culpable of trivializing the complex issue of personal privacy vs state interests - when you latched on to a trivial rumor just to tar and feather a political bete noir}

There are two other issues. Frankly, and this is political analysis, not normative judgement, the Congress is so compromised in institutional morality that if it now uses any means other than an electoral contest to defeat Modi, it will generate polarisation and resentment of the kind we cannot even imagine. We may all talk about the rule of law, but the parts of the state that can give credible meaning to that phrase are few and far between. So it is no wonder that both political parties can claim any demand that they properly explain themselves as a ruse to victimise them. Congress has done it in corruption cases; the BJP is doing it in this case.

Modi also needs to understand that in a contest with unappealing choices he may yet do well. But winning an election is not the same thing as having a wider moral legitimacy that allows you to govern well.{quite conveniently PB Mehta assumes for himself a role of purveying opinions on questions regarding "moral legitimacy" based on his own "judgments" with regard to flimsy accusations and rumors which have not even proceeded upto the doorsteps of our Justice sytem } India has an inordinate capacity to forgive sinners. But usually, the sinners have to demonstrate that they have turned a new leaf. {see again! PB Mehta seems to be suffering under the delusion that he is the manifestation of Indian Justice system - which itself in reality already exonerated Mr Modi of all malfeasance with respect to his conduct during Gujarat riots or since then. With this assertion of his, how is Mr PB Mehta any different to the paid presstitute Nidhi Razdan who screamed guilty on Modi's character infront of a British MP on live TV while simultaneously telling SC to screw off with its judgments when it comes to the Gujarat riots matter ?} Alas, Modi’s conduct in this case is far from reassuring.

The writer is president, Centre for Policy Research, Delhi, and a contributing editor for ‘The Indian Express’

[email protected]

All in all Mr PB Mehta onlee gives a gratuitous moral science lecture to the Tallest leader in the country based on flimsy allegations , and the lecture itself is so silly and tepid that he has to repeat the "moral" "integrity" "principle" "sinner" and other supercilious words more times than can be tolerated in a 3 minute farticle.

[Hari Seldon]

vinassh kaale vipreet buddhi.... these guys make the unreal times look tame.... and no, its for real!



Headline Translation: Sibal: Inflation has increased as ppl have started eating two Vegetables with Roti.

#aakthoo to the dynasty psycho-pants.

[Deans]

AAP will attract a few super educated elites just as the naxals once attracted some of the cream of kolkata students. firebrand socialism in theory sounds very attractive, in practice in a poor country it has always been a disaster.

Yes, the IIT-IIM crowd are salivating over him + a few wannabe IITian types. The joke is, their own personal preferences in economics, nationalism, governance is 180* of what they strongly believe in. They are just going by "sounds like a honest person who wants to change and his not corrupt, lets give him a chance"

Sometime I think higher education in India comes with a free lobotomy.

For the record, I'm from IIM (A) and thought AK was an a$$---- from the beginning. Was hoping for something like this expose.
P.S - I'm also Christian and consider myself a strong NaMo supporter.

[harbans]

No one is pointing to the bottomline questions that are critical in the snoopgate affair. And that is the duty of the bureaucracy to point out an illegality or extra legal requests that may come at the behest of a politician in power. An Obama telling a Genral, why don't you cluster bomb that part, the General's duty and knowledge must pertain to whether use of cluster bombs is illegal in international or national law and tell Obama so. That same question arose with the use of drones. The Pres wanted to use drones, but they didn't go blindly using it everywhere. Legal options of use in areas where the Paki state or international writ was not running was used to justify legal options. Politicians of all hues make requests all the time of Xtra legal nature if not illegal nature. Most civilized democracies have rules in place where seasoned Bureacrats well familiar with law, both national and international give advise to the Politicians of the pitfalls. That feedback/ part of the loop is essential to the running of a civilized democratic state. IG asked to snoop on Zail Singh and others, US Presidents have done that all the time, sting operations are all snoop operations. Tehelka type stings are illegal in many countries for example.

So in Snoopgate, it is not about womens rights, or Shah doing something illegal. It's about the basic breakdown, why an important bureaucratic organ like the Police chose not to point out the extra legality of snoop and advise accordingly. By not doing so and going around doing something xtralegal and taping it..that was the BIG error and failure of the democratic process. The bottom line here to be investigated is the bureaucracies utter failure in cooperating with Amit Shah and giving them proper advise on the request.

From my knowledge i don't remember any bureaucrat in Gujarat being transferred and harassed as is happening to Khemka for instance. I would like to see the notes of dissent that Singhal sent to Shah of the xtra legal order he was showing if at all one exists. Or proof that he threatened him to carry out the xtra legal operation despite his protests. That would be cause for concern on part of the politician (in this case Shah). But in this particular case the real cause of concern for Democratic norms is the bureaucratic response. Surprising none in the media and political experts that right reams and come in droves on Channels all the time looked into this aspect.

[Yagnasri]

NM is attacked the price hiking and promised price reducing promised 5 years back by mafia. This being done time and again. Mafia has no answer other than stupid talk by jokers like Kapil Sibbal. This is very powerful attack which directly hit the heart of voters.

[RajeshA]

So in Snoopgate, it is not about womens rights, or Shah doing something illegal. It's about the basic breakdown, why an important bureaucratic organ like the Police chose not to point out the extra legality of snoop and advise accordingly. By not doing so and going around doing something xtralegal and taping it..that was the BIG error and failure of the democratic process. The bottom line here to be investigated is the bureaucracies utter failure in cooperating with Amit Shah and giving them proper advise on the request.

From my knowledge i don't remember any bureaucrat in Gujarat being transferred and harassed as is happening to Khemka for instance. I would like to see the notes of dissent that Singhal sent to Shah of the xtra legal order he was showing if at all one exists. Or proof that he threatened him to carry out the xtra legal operation despite his protests. That would be cause for concern on part of the politician (in this case Shah). But in this particular case the real cause of concern for Democratic norms is the bureaucratic response. Surprising none in the media and political experts that right reams and come in droves on Channels all the time looked into this aspect.

I don't see anything wrong with a state government putting some citizen under surveillance. Surveillance can be useful for finding out anti-national activities, for terrorist activities, for criminal activities, or for a plethora of other reasons doing with abuse of power. Surveillance is something all sorts of intelligence agencies are doing all the time, and yes on citizens.

The only requirement is that surveillance should have some justification. Here there is sufficient justification. Preventing a crime of molesting, sexual harassment, blackmail is more than good justification.

In a democratic country, perhaps one can say, such surveillance needs to be authorized by some court or some law. But we all know that Gujarati courts are full of Congress-sponsored judges. And everything is politics in India.

In the final analysis the only thing that mattered is whether Narendra Modi ordered surveillance as a political measure or as an administrative measure, and everything points out to the latter.

[kapilrdave]

Twitter is overflowing with negative reactions on #AAP. Not one positive tweet on entire page. If twitter is any indication AAP is toast. I hope Kejriwal gets thrown in jail for all the fraud being committed by AAP.

SM is a funny place. You never know who is who and who is 'how may'. One man can be multiple poster also.

During last two assembly elections in UP, I used to think that bjp had good chance. Why? Because no matter which news site I surfed, the comments section was full of anti sp, bsp, cong. Almost everyone wanted bjp! But we know the result. Most likely those posters didn't even belong to UP. Or they didn't vote. The situation on the ground - such as how many people can he gather - would give more clearer indication. The fact that farji has not even attempted to do a huge rally in dilli, especially in this season of mega rallies, speaks volumes about his confidence. Same way, disinterest of delhites in pappu's speeches shows that there is anti cong wave.

So SM can be used effectively to spread the message. But its reach is too limited and vulnerable to make any judgement out of it. Twitter is least reliable in this regard. But it has its own advantage. Twitter has been most effective in calling out directly to the anti nationals. 'Internet hindus' have been successful in setting the agenda of debate among elites. The latest example is TT. Abhishek Manusinghvi's sex tape was another example. So at least indirectly SM is influencing the outcome. But judging the result by online trend would not be accurate.

[Pratyush]

^^^

WRT, Snoopgate, let the NCW interview the supposed victim and close the case for the lack of evidence. Once that is done, the state, needs to go after those tapped the conversation and the meeting.

[harbans]

Rajesh Ji, you still miss the point. Anyways.

Pratyush Ji, tapping the conversation may not be out of norm in case one is being forced to act against the law for some reason/ threats etc. The issue they are raising is 'misuse' of state machinery for possible snooping on a girl. All is maya except as i mentioned in the post above, about State machinery response to an xtra legal command. It's the said thing that Xtra legal commands need to be refused or a notice put or the issuer informed of it's illegality. That from what i am reading never happened. Instead the person/ bureaucrat just carried out the illegality and taped everything. Here it is obvious elements in the State bureaucracy were not giving required advice to the Minister concerned.

[harbans]

More dirt?