LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jan 2014 14:18

Saville row bespoke clothiering at its best. Prince charles would be proud of us.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Jan 2014 14:29

chackojoseph wrote:ASTE should be the next logical department to fly this aircraft. TACDE pilots may fly it on deputation.

What deputation??

ASTE and TACDE are both IAF units onlee

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 01 Jan 2014 15:20

chetak wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:ASTE should be the next logical department to fly this aircraft. TACDE pilots may fly it on deputation.

What deputation??

ASTE and TACDE are both IAF units onlee

Right term would be posting.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jan 2014 17:52

New VCAS has flown LCA

Good to see more support building up.

Air Marshal Ravi Kant Sharma is new vice air chief

An alumnus of National Defence Academy, Khadakwasla, he was commissioned into the Fighters’ stream of the IAF in June 1975. A Qualified Flying Instructor, he is an Experimental Test pilot who has flown around 3,300 hrs, on several different types of aircraft including the LCA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jan 2014 18:00

Singha wrote:Saville row bespoke clothiering at its best. Prince charles would be proud of us.

After westland wapiti, LCA tejas should supersede everything in between and the wapiti itself. The design is more important than making and parts production. HF24 is a german design.

Hail Team Tejas! We have created history. Prince Charles should visit FoC ceremony.

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 01 Jan 2014 19:11

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:I sure hope our emb145 awacs project is making progress toward IOC. phalcon costs $300 mil a pop now and is unaffordable to field in quantity. I see the plane flying regularly in blr and returning to land around 12 noon, but no public reports on progress.
Anti-jinx mantra but IOC is scheduled for 2014 per latest projections. And as IAF is deeply involved with program and have agreed to the much more ambitious Project India AWACS, it does seem that things are progressing on track.

We seem to have passed a critical threshold in ground based systems - many in production, so algorithms, software etc can be leveraged. In naval field, revathi variant of 3D CAR is a foothold to leverage and grow into a family of systems. In airborne - now here is where we need some heavy blows. So far using the SV-2000/XV-2004, LRDE has managed to qualify a range of modes, flight hardware and get a working system. But its one meant for slow platforms. The AEW&CS will mark a big breakthrough for us in the surveillance space, but until & unless we have DESIGN AND DEVELOPMENT CAPABILITY OF OPERATIONAL FCR, we will remain critically dependent on Elta/NIIP/Phazatron/Thales etc.

KARAN SIR,

You have summed it up nicely!!! Its RIP for the original MMR , not for the Hybrid!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Jan 2014 19:15

Thanks RR, So the ELTA 2032 is flying with Indian systems?

PS: No sir for me please.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jan 2014 08:43

vina wrote:
With news coming out that the Tejas Mk2's Preliminary Design Review is scheduled for Jan 2014, I really don't expect that the prototype build and the first flight will occur in 2014. it may slide into 2015.
For MKII, no prototype version.The design is for directly SP version . That is the "learning" from the Tejas per Subrahmanyam. So, I guess the first flight can very well occur in Dec 2014.

May not be possible. As per this article on FG, the first F-414 engine will only arrive in 2015.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jan 2014 09:06

Singha wrote:I sure hope our emb145 awacs project is making progress toward IOC. phalcon costs $300 mil a pop now and is unaffordable to field in quantity. I see the plane flying regularly in blr and returning to land around 12 noon, but no public reports on progress.

from a chaiwallah source, things are progressing well on that project. No anticipated delays as such.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jan 2014 09:11

From that

FG article

The Indian air force, however, expects that only the Tejas Mk2 will meet the requirements envisioned in the air staff requirements set in 1985.

Chacko FYI : it ain't ASR 2004.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Jan 2014 10:15

By 1985 ASR, Kaveri was the engine etc. IAF then asked for proof of concept which was demonstrated by TD-1 2001. Then the final requirement was drown by 2004, where there was wing redesign etc.

Technically 2004 could not be an ASR, but to say Mk2 confirms to 1985 ASR is also wrong.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jan 2014 10:29

Singha,Charlie boy is famous for his frugality and wears jackets that have been darned and patched up umpteen times! I saw this mass producing chappati machine at an expo in Delhi recently.That's what HAL needs.It will now have to do some bespoke tailoring for the precious backsides of our VVVIps with the ALH and/or MI-17s,now that the AW deal has been chopped!

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 02 Jan 2014 11:03

chackojoseph wrote:New VCAS has flown LCA

Good to see more support building up.

Air Marshal Ravi Kant Sharma is new vice air chief

While I agree that its definitely an improvement over the past years, is there any indication as to what he thought of the aircraft after flying it? Just because he flew it doesn't necessarily mean he thinks the world of it, no?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jan 2014 11:10

chacko, once schedule slips, everything goes ulta pulta.. the ASR dates makes no sense now, and IAF participation as stake holders takes higher precedence now. it is a good thing going, and we need to continue on the same mode of ops.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Jan 2014 11:24

Vikek,

Yes. However, my confidence comes from the good feedback of test pilots.

Saik, Yes. Its on firm path.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jan 2014 11:51

vivek_ahuja wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:New VCAS has flown LCA

Good to see more support building up.

Air Marshal Ravi Kant Sharma is new vice air chief
While I agree that its definitely an improvement over the past years, is there any indication as to what he thought of the aircraft after flying it? Just because he flew it doesn't necessarily mean he thinks the world of it, no?

Heres info from a chaiwallah who spoke to IAF folks, they want the LCA and want it fast, and hence have been putting a lot of pressure on ADA and HAL to get it done and produced fast.
From ADA main expectations -

1. Get as many (ideal all) design changes done. Literally hundreds of requests for actions were raised by IAF (these are late design changes) once IAF joined program seriously around 2007. (Most incorporated, some of the more ambitious good to have stuff moved to Mk2)
2. Get all systems in and certified - stuff like radar & engine were biggest holdouts (mostly addressed)
3. Drive testing faster (EADS signed for consultancy)

From HAL
1. Production quality improvements (see reports recently)
2. Commitment to production line (HAL stuck out and finally got IAF to put in 25%)

So the IAF needs these aircraft and fast. Now its about delivery, there has been a change in attitude in IAF regarding this plane, hope it continues.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 02 Jan 2014 12:23

Chacko, Karan M,

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying that.

-Vivek

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Jan 2014 18:36

Karan M wrote: So the IAF needs these aircraft and fast. Now its about delivery, there has been a change in attitude in IAF regarding this plane, hope it continues.

The change might spread rapidly now that the Rafale deal is in doldrums and is unlikely to be actually signed. The IAF faces a prospect of no new aircraft coming in at all in the next 7-8 years except for the remaining MKIs unless they see the LCA through. That must be a really scary thought for the top brass.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jan 2014 19:53

chacko, yes it should be.. the point i was making is to your assumption :

"FOC will be based on 2004 ASR. So no ambiguity there.

the requirements are anyway abstract and detail enough at high level requriements. so, we don't need to bang our heads on this. however, if we have the ASR detailed out, we can see how things map up.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 03 Jan 2014 02:05

Karan M wrote:
From HAL
1. Production quality improvements (see reports recently)
2. Commitment to production line (HAL stuck out and finally got IAF to put in 25%)

Did not know that IAF put in 25%, great news - thanks for sharing. IAF once on board, is generally it is pretty good in ordering numbers or putting in resources to make a sprint to the finish. Now the production will probably follow the critical path with less stoppages.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Jan 2014 03:25

HAL to build 8, then 12, Tejas fighters each year

The ministry of defence (MoD) has sanctioned Rs 1,556 crore for HAL’s high tech production line that aims to build 12 Tejas fighters each year. The funds will come from the IAF (25 per cent); the navy (25 per cent), while HAL will put up half the money.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Jan 2014 08:35

Flight test update:
From:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2448 Test Flights Successfully. (17-Dec-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-380,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,LSP3-180,LSP4-102,LSP5-240,LSP7-77,NP1-6,LSP8-62)
To:
LCA Tejas has completed 2467 Test Flights Successfully. (02-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-381,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,LSP3-183,LSP4-110,LSP5-246,LSP7-77,NP1-7,LSP8-62)

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 03 Jan 2014 10:32

NRao wrote:HAL to build 8, then 12, Tejas fighters each year

The ministry of defence (MoD) has sanctioned Rs 1,556 crore for HAL’s high tech production line that aims to build 12 Tejas fighters each year. The funds will come from the IAF (25 per cent); the navy (25 per cent), while HAL will put up half the money.

Nothing beats the Indian Navy's commitment to indigenous projects. To think that they contributed 25% and matched the Air Force's contribution while having a smaller requirement speaks volumes. I hope the other two services take lessons from them, particularly the Army Armored corps.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Jan 2014 10:45

^^ They are taking 25% of planned Arjun numbers. What more d'ya expect.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 04 Jan 2014 08:12

Beautiful video by ADA.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 04 Jan 2014 12:19

Karan M wrote:^^ They are taking 25% of planned Arjun numbers. What more d'ya expect.

they what ?
You are joking right

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jan 2014 12:52

2013 seems to have been a key year of decision for the IAF.The scare that was given by the DM and air chief at Aero-India and deadlines fixed for the IOC,worked.There is no Q now that the LCA is being seen by the IAF as being its "workhorse" for the future in the same way that the MIGs were for us earlier.If the same tempo is maintained,and priority given to LCA production and MK-2 development,the replacement of our vintage MIG-21s by LCAs almost number for number may be poss. by 2030. The IAF are also extending the life of MIG-21s and Bisons as much as poss. to facilitate this happening and the last date given for retirement of the type was 2025.

Another key development by the DRDO has been the indigenous aerostat,which when perfected should also add to the AEW assets.One wishes that the indigenous AWACS being developed with EMB gets a larger platform in the future,poss. the MTA.

member_28041 · Post by **member_28041** » 04 Jan 2014 20:52

Khalsa wrote:
Karan M wrote:^^ They are taking 25% of planned Arjun numbers. What more d'ya expect.
they what ?
You are joking right

Yes he was joking. The correct figure is somewhere around .25%

member_28041 · Post by **member_28041** » 04 Jan 2014 20:59

Philip wrote:2013 seems to have been a key year of decision for the IAF.The scare that was given by the DM and air chief at Aero-India and deadlines fixed for the IOC,worked.There is no Q now that the LCA is being seen by the IAF as being its "workhorse" for the future in the same way that the MIGs were for us earlier.If the same tempo is maintained,and priority given to LCA production and MK-2 development,the replacement of our vintage MIG-21s by LCAs almost number for number may be poss. by 2030. The IAF are also extending the life of MIG-21s and Bisons as much as poss. to facilitate this happening and the last date given for retirement of the type was 2025.

Another key development by the DRDO has been the indigenous aerostat,which when perfected should also add to the AEW assets.One wishes that the indigenous AWACS being developed with EMB gets a larger platform in the future,poss. the MTA.

What?? A positive post regarding indian products from Philip. Philip saar you made my day.Guys please bookmark this page. We may never again see another post of Philip praising indian products.

No talk of : 3 legged cheeta,30+ year old programme,imported engines,low payed dark yindo scientists,copy of mirage,just 8 planes per year,over weight as my aunty,no aesa radar,just too small etc. etc. etc

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Jan 2014 21:02

India is a strange place. I hope and pray that "The scare that was given by the DM and air chief" happens more often. Hmmmmmmmmmm.. just struck me, that scare has more value than pray, so I hope and scare that the AMCA is completed in 2014.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 04 Jan 2014 21:07

Real nice video of the plane. Looks good in all aspects. Sharp looking plane all in all.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 04 Jan 2014 22:01

Really hoped the video would have footage of the AoA testing and spin recovery trials.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jan 2014 12:39

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editori ... 542125.ece

Editorial
January 6, 2014
Long journey to the sky

It has been 30 years in the making, has cost Rs.172.69 billion, and will easily take another year if not more to clear the last lap. Tejas, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd-manufactured Light Combat Aircraft that received its second “initial operational clearance” — it got the first IOC in January 2011 — and was inducted into the Indian Air Force last month, is meant to replace the ageing fleet of MiG21s and MiG27s. But that goal is still some years away. First, the aircraft needs to get its Final Operational Clearance. The IOC certifies that the aircraft can fly, the FOC that it can fight. In order to be certified as an operational fighter, the LCA, developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency, must undergo intensive trials of its weapons systems; the Air Force also wants it to be fitted with air-to-air refuelling capability. Going by the track record of the LCA project, all this could take the deadline for the FOC from December 2014 to mid-2015. Then too, the payload and agility of the Tejas will not match the IAF’s expectations. The supersonic LCA’s General Electric F404 engine — an indigenously developed engine did not quite cut it — will allow only short-range missiles and laser-guided 500-kg bombs, less weaponry than was originally budgeted for. The limited thrust of the engine will also curtail its agility. The IAF will have two squadrons of the LCA, that is, 40 planes including eight trainer craft. HAL hopes to roll them out fast enough for the first squadron to be in place by 2016. But what the IAF is waiting for is Tejas Mark II, which is to be equipped with the more powerful GE 414 engine. For that, however, the aircraft may need to be re-engineered, and the process could well take another 10 years or more.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony has said that India could eventually have 200 Tejas aircraft, mostly for the Air Force and some for the Navy. At nine tons, it is said to be the lightest in its category of fighter planes. The ADA says the Tejas Mark 1 is better than its contemporaries, such as the French Mirage 2000, the U.S. F-16 and the Swedish Gripen. Moreover, it has not met with a single accident during trials. But perhaps its greatest advantage is that at Rs.180 crore apiece, its cost is just one third that of similar aircraft even though more than a third of its parts, including the engine, are imported. Its operational costs too will be lower. Tejas is also a brave effort to break the monopoly of a select few in making fighter jets. It travels at least part of the way towards the goal of indigenisation of military hardware, and has provided India with valuable experience, that can be put to good use for the development of the planned fifth generation fighter aircraft and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft.

Some Qs that the editorial provokes:

1.Is it a fact that the MK-1 cannot carry a BVR missile,only SR AAMs due to the 404 engine power limitations? Surely MK-1 is capable of carrying 2XBVR + 2/4X SR AAM (Derby + R-73/Python-5) missiles along with an underbelly drop tank?

2.The requirement of A-to-A refuelling for MK-1.Is this an "absolute" requirement from the IAF for MK-1 series production,the first 40,and was it in the initial ASR?

3.10 years for Mk-2 to arrive.This seems to be overestimated, even by the assessment of conservative sceptics who feel that it may take between 5 -7 years

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Jan 2014 12:50

^^^

... The bolded part in the article above shows the editorial did not comprehend what is currently integrated at IOC-2 vs what will be achieved by FOC.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 06 Jan 2014 12:57

will allow only short-range missiles and laser-guided 500-kg bombs

....and the problem is? That's over a 1000 lb bomb. I've seen 1000 lb bombs. I've helped loaded them. They're awesome big boys.

I think I read somewhere that this a light fighter jet, right?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 06 Jan 2014 13:22

The supersonic LCA’s General Electric F404 engine — an indigenously developed engine did not quite cut it — will allow only short-range missiles and laser-guided 500-kg bombs, less weaponry than was originally budgeted for. The limited thrust of the engine will also curtail its agility.

More like though F404 didn't quite cut it either(wording from same report)- originally more weaponry was budgeted already-the Tejas team made the most of it. As many have suggested here, this should not be taken as a limit of failure(bigger engine not cutting it only, what to do only) as an excuse to limit testing of Kaveri.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 06 Jan 2014 13:51

Roperia wrote:Beautiful video by ADA.

Loved how the R-73 missile shot was tracked on the Litening POD as well, the bird's a real killer, the HUD and Pod info seems very clear, should be a very easy bird to fly.

Post FOC, the LCA should be able to carry 4 BVRs and 2 WVRs without any problems. Keep in mind, with IOC-2 the LCA tejas is cleared to fly without telemtry equipment which is around 300kg of additional weight. Production birds won't have this extra weight.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Jan 2014 15:19

Philip wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editori ... 542125.ece

Editorial
January 6, 2014
Long journey to the sky

Then too, the payload and agility of the Tejas will not match the IAF’s expectations. The supersonic LCA’s General Electric F404 engine — an indigenously developed engine did not quite cut it — will allow only short-range missiles and laser-guided 500-kg bombs, less weaponry than was originally budgeted for. The limited thrust of the engine will also curtail its agility. The IAF will have two squadrons of the LCA, that is, 40 planes including eight trainer craft. HAL hopes to roll them out fast enough for the first squadron to be in place by 2016. But what the IAF is waiting for is Tejas Mark II, which is to be equipped with the more powerful GE 414 engine. For that, however, the aircraft may need to be re-engineered, and the process could well take another 10 years or more.

Some Qs that the editorial provokes:

1.Is it a fact that the MK-1 cannot carry a BVR missile,only SR AAMs due to the 404 engine power limitations? Surely MK-1 is capable of carrying 2XBVR + 2/4X SR AAM (Derby + R-73/Python-5) missiles along with an underbelly drop tank?

Philip, that particular bit is obviously DDMitis. Carrying 500kg bombs is OK but carrying 120kg Derby missiles, or even the 200kg R-77s, should they be integrated, is not possible?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Jan 2014 18:14

And to even take such an absurd claim seriously speaks volumes.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 06 Jan 2014 19:17

^It would be a surprise if HE didn't take it seriously. I knew the favorable attitude on the last page was an aberration. True to form, HE is back with trashy articles with garbage for arguments.