Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

udaym wrote:I believe there is more to Japan's tail wagging. Yes, defense dependence is definitely at the top of the list, but the failure to not following instructions, means some serious consequences to its domestic economy which Mr. Abe, and his predecessors, struggling to fix. Russia is not Japan's top 5 export partners. Japan't debt burden is a serious threat to its own economy. They can shake Japanese financial markets so hard, that all those earthquakes and tsunamis will look like minor accident. The hands caressing their b@ll$ can squeeze them any time. Wagging the tail, is the least they could do to help themselves stay out of trouble.
Yes you got that right.

Japan has no choice what has to follow what POTUS says , They economy is entirely debt ridden like 200 % of GDP and their Banks are dependent on Fed and US for survival.

If Mr Abe does not follow Washington diktat they would be bankrupt tomorrow.

Washington will squeeze their balls so hard that they wont have get time to yell.

Feels sorry for a great nation like Japan , considering they have their own dispute with Russia on Kuril Island and Putin had visited Japan several times and both wanted to resolve it.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

One good thing that has emerged is inspite of Heavy Pressure from Washington , UK and many European Nation , not to mention recently Japan to cancel the Mistral Deal.

The French have stuck out their neck so far and said it will go ahead with the deal.

US pressure was tremendous where they even offered to reduce the fine on french bank if they cancel Mistral Deal.

Shows French can maintain its independent foreign policy inspite of Tremendous pressure from all sides.

Should be a lesson for on too when it comes to Rafale Deal.
TSJones
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by TSJones »

Austin wrote:
udaym wrote:I believe there is more to Japan's tail wagging. Yes, defense dependence is definitely at the top of the list, but the failure to not following instructions, means some serious consequences to its domestic economy which Mr. Abe, and his predecessors, struggling to fix. Russia is not Japan's top 5 export partners. Japan't debt burden is a serious threat to its own economy. They can shake Japanese financial markets so hard, that all those earthquakes and tsunamis will look like minor accident. The hands caressing their b@ll$ can squeeze them any time. Wagging the tail, is the least they could do to help themselves stay out of trouble.
Yes you got that right.

Japan has no choice what has to follow what POTUS says , They economy is entirely debt ridden like 200 % of GDP and their Banks are dependent on Fed and US for survival.

If Mr Abe does not follow Washington diktat they would be bankrupt tomorrow.

Washington will squeeze their balls so hard that they wont have get time to yell.

Feels sorry for a great nation like Japan , considering they have their own dispute with Russia on Kuril Island and Putin had visited Japan several times and both wanted to resolve it.
Well they could kick US military bases out and assume their own defense plans but that would be rather expensive for them. The majority of Japanese seem to be against that for some reason.
Singha
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Singha »

Austin, France is only committed to delivering the 1st Mistral which is in advanced stages of fitting out. I think they might be willing to take the hit on the 2nd Mistral being build at DCN which is far from delivery.
the follow on 2 more Mistrals to be built in Russia somewhere is surely off the table for now.

bottomline is they will stick with NATO as 90% of their bread and butter economic interests are with nato. they are not averse to needling the Khan or making money on the side, but not beyond a point.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

TSJones wrote:Well they could kick US military bases out and assume their own defense plans but that would be rather expensive for them. The majority of Japanese seem to be against that for some reason.
They need the US military there for their own reasons.

But Economically Japan cant do much ... I am not sure even if Abenomics is working for them now.
Philip
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Did sanctions against India work in the aftermath of P-2? There was some pain but ultimately India emerged stronger and more self-reliant in some areas like cryo-engine tech which was denied to us by the US,vetoing Russian sales of it.
In similar fashion will Russia also emerge stronger.AS the report indicates,Asian nations will take up the opportunity and there may be some for India too.The US will try and pressurise many independent nations like India not to buy Russian but India is unlikely to play ball as our interests are too important with a number of deals in the pipeline,defence,N-plants,etc.,apart from our long-time relationship which PM Modi referred to when he met Mr.Putin at the BRICS summit.O'Bomber will do everything to break BRICS and India must be prepared for some tough times from the US.Our stand on the WTO food issue has already come in for much criticism.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... -sanctions
Russia takes defiant stance in face of tough EU and US sanctions
Russian officials say focus will shift to domestic market production, but analysts say defence and oil industries will suffer

Alec Luhn in Moscow
theguardian.com, Wednesday 30 July 2014
Vladimir Putin and Russia's deputy prime minister, Dmitry Rogozin. Photograph: Alexei Nikolsky/AP

As the US and the European Union adopted tougher economic sanctions against Russia over the conflict in eastern Ukraine and downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, Russian officials struck a defiant note, promising that Russia would localise production and emerge stronger than before. But analysts in sectors that could be affected by the sanctions – finance, defence and energy – predicted that they would suffer in isolation from the west.

The EU reached a deal on Tuesday evening to cut off Russian state-owned banks from European capital markets and was quickly joined by the US, which denied the state-owned banks VTB Bank OAO, Bank of Moscow and the Russian Agricultural Bank access to the US economy.

In addition, the EU banned any trade in arms or "related material" with Russia, and the US prohibited transactions with Russia's United Shipbuilding Corp, which it classified as a defence company.

Both the EU and the US will also ban technology exports to Russia for deep-water, Arctic or shale oil drilling. The sanctions imposed by the EU, which does far more trade with Russia than the US, will be reviewed in three months.

Shares in VTB, Russia's second-largest bank, dropped by 3% at the start of trading on Wednesday but later regained most of that. The Russian stock market on the whole grew, with the MICEX and RTS indices rising by about 2%.

The Bank of Moscow said in a statement it was focused on its domestic market, and its business "wouldn't suffer at all from the imposed sanctions". Russia's central bank promised to prop up banks hit by sanctions. "If necessary, appropriate measures will be taken to support these organisations in order to protect the interests of their customers, depositors and creditors," it said in a statement.

But the measures are likely to raise the cost of credit in Russia and likely take their toll on the economy. Andrei Klepach, the deputy chairman of the state-owned bank VEB, said on Russian television on Tuesday that sanctions could halt economic growth or even lead to a recession in the country. Previously, Russia has forecast a 1% growth in gross domestic product this year – although the IMF this month downgraded its forecast to 0.2%, citing capital flight and falling investment amid western economic pressure.

Reacting to the sanctions on Wednesday, Dmitry Rogozin, Russia's deputy prime minister, who is in charge of Russia's defence and space industries, wrote on Twitter: "Obama's decision to impose sanctions against the United Shipbuilding Corporation is a clear sign that Russian military shipbuilding is becoming a problem for Russia's enemies." Alexei Pushkov, chairman of the parliament's foreign affairs committee, tweeted: "Obama won't go into history as a peacemaker – everyone has already forgotten about his Nobel peace prize – but as the US president who started a new cold war."

Sergei Lavrov, Russia's foreign minister, said on Monday about the expected sanctions that Russia for now would not "fall into hysterics" or take retaliatory measures. "I assure you, we will overcome any difficulties that may arise in certain areas of the economy, and maybe we will become more independent and more confident in our own strength," Lavrov said.

But despite Lavrov's statement, a group of ruling party lawmakers said on Tuesday they would introduce legislation to ban auditing and consulting companies from "aggressor countries", including the big four auditing firms Deloitte, KPMG, Ernst & Young and PricewaterhouseCoopers. In addition, Russia's consumer watchdog, which has been known to wield import bans for political purposes, placed a ban on some fruits and vegetables from EU member Poland.

Vladimir Tikhomirov, chief economist at Otkritie Bank, said that such measures against "aggressor countries" is not likely to pass because it would have little impact on western economies but would be disastrous for traded Russian companies, which are all audited by international firms. Instead, Russia could adopt asymmetric measures to ban foreign companies or cut off its export, Tikhomirov said.

In response to sanctions, Russian state-owned banks will probably try to sell more debt on the domestic and Asian markets, but will nonetheless have to increase the cost at which they lend money, Tikhomirov added.

For now, Russian banks are not taking steps to ward off the effects of sanctions, because they expect the situation to be short-lived.

"It will be a burden on Russia's central bank and sovereign fund," he said. "The issue for Russian banks and the market in general is not catastrophic, but macroeconomic pressure will increase, as will growth of inflation and of cost of credit."


State-owned banks Sberbank and VTB declined to comment for this story.

In one example of the import substitution sought by the Kremlin, Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, said at a meeting with representatives of Russia's military-industrial complex on Monday night that the country would replace imported components for its arms production, and the impending "technological difficulties" would in the end be beneficial for the country.

"Our task is to insure ourselves against the risk of our foreign partners not fulfilling contracts, and this includes political risks," Putin said. "We need to provide for the reliable and on-time delivery of vital parts and components and carefully keep track of their quality."

The remarks appeared directed toward the effects of the expected western sanctions, as well as the end of cooperation with Ukraine, which has been a major manufacturing base for arms components, especially engines for aircraft and ships. In addition, Russia has a large arms trade with France, having ordered not only two Mistral warships from the country but also licensing to produce thermal imagery devices and electronics for its Su-30 fighter jet. Although the Mistral warship contract will go through, new trade in arms components with Europe will be halted. In light of sanctions Russia will likely turn towards the Asian market to supply such components, Igor Korotchenko, editor of the National Defence journal, told the newspaper Izvestia.

But independent defence analyst Pavel Felgenhauer said that despite Putin's optimism, replacing many of the foreign-sourced components was a "sheer impossibility". He said 90% of defence-industry electronics were produced in the west, arguing that even intercontinental ballistic missiles are not fully Russian-made.

"Self-dependence and doing everything on your own soil, that didn't work even in medieval times, and right now practically all Russian weapons systems use foreign components or materials," he said.

The restrictions placed by the EU on the oil industry are also likely to be painful but not crippling. BP, which owns nearly 20% of Russia's state-owned oil major Rosneft and has been cooperating with it to explore Arctic deposits, said further sanctions "could have a material adverse impact on our relationship with and investment in Rosneft, our business and strategic objectives in Russia, and our financial position and results of operations".

A drilling rig that ExxonMobil and Rosneft will operate as part of its exploration project in the Arctic Ocean left port in Norway two days after MH17 was downed. But further Arctic exploration projects will be put into doubt.

Ildar Davletshin, an oil analyst at Renaissance Capital, said western technologies to drill in the Arctic would not be needed until conventional reserves begin to dry up by 2020, he added.

In response to sanctions, Rosneft is will probably seek to divest from non-core assets and decrease its participation in projects in Venezuela and other countries, he said.

"It's a very connected industry, [high-technology] components could be produced in Russia or China but it will take time to re-orient," he said.
ldev
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ldev »

Putin was fine and acceptable to the US for the last 15 years, through Chechnya and Georgia. GWB has looked "into his soul" and found him acceptable. So what changed? Why is Crimea and Ukraine so different? Or is the real reason for the US turning on Putin something else? Something completely unrelated?

As far as the recently announced European sanctions go, I think one should wait for the first bite of winter in the Northern Hemisphere when natural gas consumption in Europe starts rising. Will not be surprised if the pipelines from Russia to Ukraine and Europe suddenly develop "technical problems" interrupting gas supplies.

Very interesting times. Get the popcorn out.
Philip
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

IDev,how prescient of you! Here is a sanguine assessment of the civil war by the US Naval Institute,
Navigating Ukraine’s Civil War
By: Lt. Col. Donald Thieme, USMC
Published: July 28, 2014

Pro-Russian separatists at a check point in Kharkiv in Eastern Ukraine.

As summer rolls on, Russian-built anti-aircraft missiles continue to down aircraft over eastern Ukraine. While a great deal of ink has been spilled over exactly what kind of missiles are deployed, and who is giving the launch authorizations and actually launching them, one fact is salient: This is an escalation, intentional or not, that elevates the simmering Ukrainian civil war beyond Donetsk.

The downing of Malaysian airliner Flight MH17 is only one of a recent spate of shoot downs in the Ukrainian civil war. Make no mistake, this is a war, and it is not one that will be easily resolved. After Russia’s takeover of Crimea, other like-minded separatists are encouraged to make their own similar breakaways, or at least strive for greater autonomy. Ukraine, an ancient land but a relatively recent country, is beset with troubles that would bedevil even the most sagacious leader—and only time will tell if Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is one of them.

The fights on the floor of the Parliament and the resignation of Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk only underscore the scope of the challenges facing Poroshenko and Ukraine. Put differently, even without a sustained insurgency in the east, Ukraine is struggling to maintain its integrity, and the government appears mired in a quagmire of inability to provide governance.

That only makes it even more difficult for Russian President Vladimir Putin to calculate his next move, although he has shown a canny ability to exploit every opportunity that comes in Russia’s near abroad. It is even more difficult for the United States and our European allies to consider policy responses. In the run-up to the NATO summit in Wales—just six weeks away—all of the leaders are no doubt wrestling with trying to first craft a strategy vis-à-vis a newly assertive and resurgent Russia, and then develop policies that will not be merely reactive, but proactive in sustained strategic engagement with Russia.

Even as NATO leaders seek strategic options and policy implementations, and as Poroshenko struggles to instill some sort of normalcy of governance in Kiev and the rest of the Ukraine, local battlefield commanders are ahead of both Moscow and NATO. Combat has a habit of getting ahead of policy deliberations, especially absent an overarching strategic construct. Among other Cold War legacy problems, one of the most significant for Ukraine is that most of its military forces are oriented toward the western borders, and poorly positioned to operate in the eastern steppes, valleys, and marshes.

Certainly, though, whether operated by Russians or Ukrainian separatists, the missiles over Ukraine have added a new challenge to the armed forces and government of Ukraine. The weapons mark a deployment of both an anti-access (you can’t get to the battlefield) and area-denial (you can’t operate freely in the area of operations) capabilities that reduce Ukraine’s ability to fight a combined air-land battle.

What Ukraine most likely will have to do is first decide to draw the line on enemy forces in eastern Ukraine. If Donetsk and Luhanshk today, what is to say that other regions will not follow? Donetsk is also home to a significant portion of Ukraine’s population and industrial/economic output—Ukraine really has no choice but to go to war over it. It is classic Westphalian politics that must be backed up with force.

An undated photo of a Buk missile system.

The best way to defeat antiaircraft artillery is with integrated old-fashioned artillery, ground forces and armor.
Ukraine will have to reposition and commit forces, and prepare for and sustain a campaign to crush the insurgents, and exert sovereign control over its spaces and borders. At the same time that enables Ukraine to contend with Putin in the “Battle of the Narrative” and prove that it is committed to maintaining control over the restive provinces and populations. At the strategic level, once it controls all Ukrainian ground space, then it will be far easier to prove that any more missiles over Ukraine came from the Russian side of the border.

That doesn’t solve the whole problem, though, as Ukraine is still in massive energy debt to Russia, and Russia could easily refuse to send energy when winter comes.
Thus, for the United States and our allies, we have to prepare more for economic, energy, and diplomatic actions, rather than military ones, to aid Ukraine. Paying the debt to Russia grants the Russians a victory, although it could prove to be a Pyrrhic one. At the same time, Ukraine is very poorly postured to be able to receive emergency energy imports from the sea or any other venue, and Ukrainian winters are nothing to be laughed at. It will require a very large infrastructure campaign to build the capability to get energy imports into Ukraine from any source other than Russia—and Putin knows that all too well.

The wild card, then, will be trans-shipments of energy to and via Ukraine when the first snow falls. With the Baltic pipeline (and others in development) Russia has built, and continues to build, a strategic hedge that will allow it to deploy the energy weapon to decouple European policymakers from the regional situation in Ukraine and its restive eastern borderlands. If Ukraine freezes and starves this winter (Joseph Stalin employed precisely that construct in the 1930s holodomor) while the rest of Europe sits warm and cozy, then Russia will have won a war without firing (too many) shots. A century after the start of the Great War, at least one European power seems to have learned the lessons of August 1914.

Whether Putin and Russia actually intended for the missiles to be employed against Ukrainian air forces or transcontinental civilian flights is important, but what is really important is how the Unites States and Europe decide to handle this challenge to European security and stability. As the late Margaret Thatcher famously said, this isn’t the time to “go wobbly.” Let’s hope we find our current Thatcher, Helmut Kohl and Ronald Reagan in Wales; if not, the missiles will continue to fly, civilians and soldiers will continue to die, and Europe, along with the Unites States, is in for a long winter of discontent—which will last long after the snow melts next spring.
It is unlikely that Putin will allow the uKR forces to make siginificant gains on the ground and surround the Donetsk region cutting off supply routes from Russia.As the old saying goes,"amateurs talk tactics,professionals logistics".The east has to be fed,clothed and armed and Russia has to support its ethnic Russians there to the hilt to maintain its reputation and strategic interests.It simply cannot afford to have NATO sitting on its borders esp. in the Ukraine.If the UKR forces rsort to Gaza like assaults on Donetsk,then one may see Russia intervene militarily for humanitarian reasons.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

This should be significant for both countries

Russia and India will pay in national currencies
Russia and India have set up a working group to develop a mechanism for the use of national currencies in mutual settlements. This was announced by the CBR after the meeting, first deputy chairman of Bank of Russia Xenia Yudayeva and executive director of the Reserve Bank of India Govindarazhdana Padmanabhan, reports " Interfax ".

The communication controller noted that the decision to establish a working group to develop such a mechanism is due to the urgency of this issue and the interest from the commercial structures of the two countries.

The group will include representatives of banks and, if necessary, the ministries and departments of the two countries to coordinate its activities will be central banks of Russia and India.

In May it was reported that Russia and China are going to increase the amount of direct payments in national currencies in mutual trade. In a joint statement on the results of the Russian-Chinese summit talks noted that the increase of direct payments in the national currencies of Russia and China will affect not only trade but also investment and lending.

Countries intend to stimulate the growth of mutual investments, including in transport infrastructure, the development of mineral deposits, housing economy in Russia.
RSoami
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... PM20140730

Ukraine economy shrinks faster as conflict takes its toll.

http://rt.com/business/176772-ukraine-gdp-contracts-q2/
In April the IMF said it may provide Ukraine with $17 billion in exchange for a cut in social spending.
8)

Ukraine should stop building schools and hospitals. But should continue fighting its own citizens to get aid from west. !!!!
With economy in doldrums, a powerful neighbour (hostile of its own making) and civil war kind of situation in the country, Ukraine is turning into Unkill`s dog against Russia the same way Pakistanis have against India.
Come winter and they will be enjoying fruits of their hard labour. What morons.
TSJones
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by TSJones »

Austin wrote:This should be significant for both countries

Russia and India will pay in national currencies
Russia and India have set up a working group to develop a mechanism for the use of national currencies in mutual settlements. This was announced by the CBR after the meeting, first deputy chairman of Bank of Russia Xenia Yudayeva and executive director of the Reserve Bank of India Govindarazhdana Padmanabhan, reports " Interfax ".

The communication controller noted that the decision to establish a working group to develop such a mechanism is due to the urgency of this issue and the interest from the commercial structures of the two countries.

The group will include representatives of banks and, if necessary, the ministries and departments of the two countries to coordinate its activities will be central banks of Russia and India.

In May it was reported that Russia and China are going to increase the amount of direct payments in national currencies in mutual trade. In a joint statement on the results of the Russian-Chinese summit talks noted that the increase of direct payments in the national currencies of Russia and China will affect not only trade but also investment and lending.

Countries intend to stimulate the growth of mutual investments, including in transport infrastructure, the development of mineral deposits, housing economy in Russia.
OK but don't try converting a bunch of roubles into dollars via third party transaction through your banks doing business here in the US. Keep your roubles and spend them elsewhere. I'm sure this will work out for you.
Philip
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

I think some XCpts. of the frormer intel officers statements be posted as JoKerry is playing a v.dangerous game.

.
American Intelligence Officers Who Battled the Soviet Union for Decades Slam the Flimsy "Intelligence" Against Russia
George Washington's picture
Submitted by George Washington on 07/29/2014 17:17 -0400

Preface: With the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine turning a local civil war into a U.S. confrontation with Russia, former high-level U.S. intelligence veterans released a statement today urging President Obama to release what evidence he has about the tragedy and silence the exaggeration and rush to judgment. (The whole post is a must-read; but we at Washington's Blog have added bolding for emphasis.)

Signatory Bill Binney – the former senior technical director at the NSA, and a man who battled the Soviet Union for decades – tells Washington’s Blog:

In my analytic efforts to predict intentions and capabilities down through the years, I always made sure that I had multi-factors verifying what I was asserting. So far, I don’t see that discipline here in this administration or the IC [i.e. the United States intelligence community].


Posted with permission of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SUBJECT: Intelligence on Shoot-Down of Malaysian Plane

Executive Summary

U.S.–Russian intensions are building in a precarious way over Ukraine, and we are far from certain that your advisers fully appreciate the danger of escalation. The New York Times and other media outlets are treating sensitive issues in dispute as flat-fact, taking their cue from U.S. government sources.

Twelve days after the shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, your administration still has issued no coordinated intelligence assessment summarizing what evidence exists to determine who was responsible – much less to convincingly support repeated claims that the plane was downed by a Russian-supplied missile in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.


Your administration has not provided any satellite imagery showing that the separatists had such weaponry, and there are several other “dogs that have not barked.” Washington’s credibility, and your own, will continue to erode, should you be unwilling – or unable – to present more tangible evidence behind administration claims. In what follows, we put this in the perspective of former intelligence professionals with a cumulative total of 260 years in various parts of U.S. intelligence:

We, the undersigned former intelligence officers want to share with you our concern about the evidence adduced so far to blame Russia for the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet. We intend this memorandum to provide a fresh, different perspective.

As veteran intelligence analysts accustomed to waiting, except in emergency circumstances, for conclusive information before rushing to judgment, we believe that the charges against Russia should be rooted in solid, far more convincing evidence. And that goes in spades with respect to inflammatory incidents like the shoot-down of an airliner. We are also troubled by the amateurish manner in which fuzzy and flimsy evidence has been served up – some it via “social media.”

As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information. As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence. His statements seem premature and bear earmarks of an attempt to “poison the jury pool.”

Painting Russia Black

We see an eerie resemblance to an earlier exercise in U.S. “public diplomacy” from which valuable lessons can be learned by those more interested in the truth than in exploiting tragic incidents for propaganda advantage. We refer to the behavior of the Reagan administration in the immediate aftermath of the shoot-down of Korean Airlines Flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983. We sketch out below a short summary of that tragic affair, since we suspect you have not been adequately briefed on it. The parallels will be obvious to you.

An advantage of our long tenure as intelligence officers is that we remember what we have witnessed first hand; seldom do we forget key events in which we played an analyst or other role. To put it another way, most of us “know exactly where we were” when a Soviet fighter aircraft shot down Korean Airlines passenger flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983, over 30 years ago. At the time, we were intelligence officers on “active duty.” You were 21; many of those around you today were still younger.

Thus, it seems possible that you may be learning how the KAL007 affair went down, so to speak, for the first time; that you may now become more aware of the serious implications for U.S.-Russian relations regarding how the downing of Flight 17 goes down; and that you will come to see merit in preventing ties with Moscow from falling into a state of complete disrepair. In our view, the strategic danger here dwarfs all other considerations.

Hours after the tragic shoot-down on Aug. 30, 1983, the Reagan administration used its very accomplished propaganda machine to twist the available intelligence on Soviet culpability for the killing of all 269 people aboard KAL007. The airliner was shot down after it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated Russia’s airspace over sensitive military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity – a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier – Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire.

The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder (much as on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner over the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan dismissively explained as an “understandable accident”).

To make the very blackest case against Moscow for shooting down the KAL airliner, the Reagan administration suppressed exculpatory evidence from U.S. electronic intercepts
. Washington’s mantra became “Moscow’s deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.” Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.” (Apparently, not much has changed; Time’s cover this week features “Cold War II” and “Putin’s dangerous game.” The cover story by Simon Shuster, “In Russia, Crime Without Punishment,” would merit an A-plus in William Randolph Hearst’s course “Yellow Journalism 101.”)

When KAL007 was shot down, Alvin A. Snyder, director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, was enlisted in a concerted effort to “heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” as Snyder writes in his 1995 book, “Warriors of Disinformation.”

He and his colleagues also earned an A-plus for bringing the “mainstream media” along. For example, ABC’s Ted Koppel noted with patriotic pride, “This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.”

“Fixing” the Intelligence Around the Policy

“The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” wrote Snyder, adding that the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council on September 6, 1983.

Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false.

The intercepts showed that the Soviet fighter pilot believed he was pursuing a U.S. spy aircraft and that he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. Per instructions from ground control, the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to order the aircraft to land. The pilot said he fired warning shots, as well. This information “was not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote.

It became abundantly clear to Snyder that, in smearing the Soviets, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. In his book, Snyder acknowledged his own role in the deception, but drew a cynical conclusion. He wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.”

The tortured attempts by your administration and stenographers in the media to blame Russia for the downing of Flight 17, together with John Kerry’s unenviable record for credibility, lead us to the reluctant conclusion that the syndrome Snyder describes may also be at work in your own administration; that is, that an ethos of “getting your own lie out first” has replaced “ye shall know the truth.” At a minimum, we believe Secretary Kerry displayed unseemly haste in his determination to be first out of the starting gate.

Both Sides Cannot Be Telling the Truth

We have always taken pride in not shooting from the hip, but rather in doing intelligence analysis that is evidence-based. The evidence released to date does not bear close scrutiny; it does not permit a judgment as to which side is lying about the shoot-down of Flight 17. Our entire professional experience would incline us to suspect the Russians – almost instinctively. Our more recent experience, particularly observing Secretary Kerry injudiciousness in latching onto one spurious report after another as “evidence,” has gone a long way toward balancing our earlier predispositions.

It seems that whenever Kerry does cite supposed “evidence” that can be checked – like the forged anti-Semitic fliers distributed in eastern Ukraine or the photos of alleged Russian special forces soldiers who allegedly slipped into Ukraine – the “proof” goes “poof” as Kerry once said in a different context.
Still, these misrepresentations seem small peccadillos compared with bigger whoppers like the claim Kerry made on Aug. 30, 2013, no fewer than 35 times, that “we know” the government of Bashar al-Assad was responsible for the chemical incidents near Damascus nine days before.

On September 3, 2013 – following your decision to call off the attack on Syria in order to await Congressional authorization – Kerry was still pushing for an attack in testimony before a thoroughly sympathetic Senate Foreign Affairs Committee. On the following day Kerry drew highly unusual personal criticism from President Putin, who said: “He is lying, and he knows he is lying. It is sad.”

Equally serious, during the first week of September 2013, as you and President Vladimir Putin were putting the final touches to the deal whereby Syrian chemical weapons would be given up for destruction, John Kerry said something that puzzles us to this day. On September 9, 2013, Kerry was in London, still promoting a U.S. attack on Syria for having crossed the “Red Line” you had set against Syria’s using chemical weapons.

At a formal press conference, Kerry abruptly dismissed the possibility that Bashar al-Assad would ever give up his chemical weapons, saying, “He isn’t about to do that; it can’t be done.” Just a few hours later, the Russians and Syrians announced Syria’s agreement to do precisely what Kerry had ruled out as impossible. You sent him back to Geneva to sign the agreement, and it was formally concluded on September 14.

Regarding the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down of July 17, we believe Kerry has typically rushed to judgment and that his incredible record for credibility poses a huge disadvantage in the diplomatic and propaganda maneuvering vis-a-vis Russia. We suggest you call a halt to this misbegotten “public diplomacy” offensive. If, however, you decide to press on anyway, we suggest you try to find a less tarnished statesman or woman.

A Choice Between Two

If the intelligence on the shoot-down is as weak as it appears judging from the fuzzy scraps that have been released, we strongly suggest you call off the propaganda war and await the findings of those charged with investigating the shoot-down. If, on the other hand, your administration has more concrete, probative intelligence, we strongly suggest that you consider approving it for release, even if there may be some risk of damage to “sources and methods.” Too often this consideration is used to prevent information from entering the public domain where, as in this case, it belongs.

If You’ve Got the Goods…

If the U.S. has more convincing evidence than what has so far been adduced concerning responsibility for shooting down Flight 17, we believe it would be best to find a way to make that intelligence public – even at the risk of compromising “sources and methods.” Moreover, we suggest you instruct your subordinates not to cheapen U.S. credibility by releasing key information via social media like Twitter and Facebook.

The reputation of the messenger for credibility is also key in this area of “public diplomacy.” As is by now clear to you, in our view Secretary Kerry is more liability than asset in this regard. Similarly, with regard to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, his March 12, 2013 Congressional testimony under oath to what he later admitted were “clearly erroneous” things regarding NSA collection should disqualify him. Clapper should be kept at far remove from the Flight 17 affair.

What is needed, if you’ve got the goods, is an Interagency Intelligence Assessment – the genre used in the past to lay out the intelligence. We are hearing indirectly from some of our former colleagues that what Secretary Kerry is peddling does not square with the real intelligence. Such was the case late last August, when Kerry created a unique vehicle he called a “Government (not Intelligence) Assessment” blaming, with no verifiable evidence, Bashar al-Assad for the chemical attacks near Damascus, as honest intelligence analysts refused to go along and, instead, held their noses.

We believe you need to seek out honest intelligence analysts now and hear them out. Then, you may be persuaded to take steps to curb the risk that relations with Russia might escalate from “Cold War II” into an armed confrontation. In all candor, we see little reason to believe that Secretary Kerry and your other advisers appreciate the enormity of that danger.

In our most recent (May 4) memorandum to you, Mr. President, we cautioned that if the U.S. wished “to stop a bloody civil war between east and west Ukraine and avert Russian military intervention in eastern Ukraine, you may be able to do so before the violence hurtles completely out of control.” On July 17, you joined the top leaders of Germany, France, and Russia in calling for a ceasefire. Most informed observers believe you have it in your power to get Ukrainian leaders to agree. The longer Kiev continues its offensive against separatists in eastern Ukraine, the more such U.S. statements appear hypocritical.

We reiterate our recommendations of May 4, that you remove the seeds of this confrontation by publicly disavowing any wish to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and that you make it clear that you are prepared to meet personally with Russian President Putin without delay to discuss ways to defuse the crisis and recognize the legitimate interests of the various parties.
The suggestion of an early summit got extraordinary resonance in controlled and independent Russian media. Not so in “mainstream” media in the U.S. Nor did we hear back from you.

The courtesy of a reply is requested.

Prepared by VIPS Steering Group

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)

Larry Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.)

Edward Loomis, NSA, Cryptologic Computer Scientist (ret.)

David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)

Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)

Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)

Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)

Peter Van Buren, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret)

Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret); Foreign Service Officer (ret.)
Philip
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Secret deal between Germany and Russia on Ukraine? Is the US being cut out of the picture?

Land for gas: secret German deal could end Ukraine crisis
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 38764.html
Merkel and Putin negotiate to trade Crimea’s sovereignty for guarantees on energy security and trade
Margareta Pagano Author Biography
Wednesday 30 July 2014

Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful solution to end international tensions over the Ukraine.

The Independent can reveal that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies.

More controversially, if Ms Merkel’s deal were to be acceptable to the Russians, the international community would need to recognise Crimea’s independence and its annexation by Russia, a move that some members of the United Nations might find difficult to stomach.

Sources close to the secret negotiations claim that the first part of the stabilisation plan requires Russia to withdraw its financial and military support for the various pro-separatist groups operating in eastern Ukraine. As part of any such agreement, the region would be allowed some devolved powers.

At the same time, the Ukrainian President would agree not to apply to join Nato. In return, President Putin would not seek to block or interfere with the Ukraine’s new trade relations with the European Union under a pact signed a few weeks ago.

Second, the Ukraine would be offered a new long-term agreement with Russia’s Gazprom, the giant gas supplier, for future gas supplies and pricing.
At present, there is no gas deal in place; Ukraine’s gas supplies are running low and are likely to run out before this winter, which would spell economic and social ruin for the country.

As part of the deal, Russia would compensate Ukraine with a billion-dollar financial package for the loss of the rent it used to pay for stationing its fleets in the Crimea and at the port of Sevastopol on the Black Sea until Crimea voted for independence in March.

However, these attempts by Ms Merkel to act as a broker between President Putin and the Ukraine’s President, Petro Poroshenko, were put on the back-burner following the shooting down of the MH17 plane in eastern Ukraine.

But insiders who are party to the discussions said yesterday that the “German peace plan is still on the table and the only deal around. Negotiations have stalled because of the MH17 disaster but they are expected to restart once the investigation has taken place.”

“It is in everyone’s interests to do a deal. Hopefully, talks will be revived if a satisfactory outcome can be reached to investigations now taking place as to the causes of the MH17 catastrophe.”

Closer trading ties with the EU have been one of the big ambitions of Mr Poroshenko’s presidency. He has been a staunch supporter of the country’s pro-European movement even though he is unaffiliated to any political party. He was one of the backers of the 2004 Orange Revolution and served as Foreign Minister under Yulia Tymoshenko.

Pro-Kremlin activists in Crimea's capital Simferopol (Getty) Pro-Kremlin activists in Crimea's capital Simferopol (Getty)
A spokesman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office said they had no knowledge of such negotiations taking place. However, the spokesman said he thought it highly unlikely that either the US or UK would agree to recognising Russian control over Crimea. There was no one available at the German embassy’s press office yesterday.

Reaching a solution to the ongoing dispute is pertinent for the Germans as Russia is their single biggest trading partner. Under Ms Merkel, the Russo-German axis has strengthened significantly and, until the plane shooting, her government had been staunchly against punitive sanctions for commercial but also diplomatic reasons.

Such strong trade ties between the two countries have also served to strengthen Ms Merkel’s hand and the Russian speaker has emerged as the leading advocate of closer relations between the EU and Russia. “This is Merkel’s deal. She has been dealing direct with President Putin on this. She needs to solve the dispute because it’s in no one’s interest to have tension in the Ukraine or to have Russia out in the cold. No one wants another Cold War,” said one insider close to the negotiations.

Some of Germany’s biggest companies have big operations in Russia, which is now one of Europe’s biggest car markets, while many of its small to medium companies are also expanding into the country. Although Russia now provides EU countries with a third of their gas supplies through pipelines crossing the Ukraine, Germany has its own bilateral gas pipeline direct to Russia making it less vulnerable than other European countries.

However, Russia is still the EU’s third-biggest trading partner with cross-border trade of $460bn (£272bn) last year, and the latest sanctions being introduced by the EU towards Russian individuals and banks will hurt European countries more than any other – particularly Germany, but also the City of London.

Central to the negotiations over any new gas deal with Gazprom is understood to be one of Ukraine’s wealthiest businessmen, the gas broker, Dmitry Firtash. Mr Firtash – who negotiated the first big gas deal between the Ukraine and Russia between 2006 and 2009 – is now living in Vienna fighting extradition charges from the Americans. But he has close relations with the Russian and Ukrainian leaders – he supported Mr Poroschenko – and has been acting as a go-between behind the scenes at the highest levels.
*This explains the contradictions in the current crisis.Why Pres. Putin has exercised so much restraint when he has had ample opportunity to take over the east.Secondly,why the UKR puppet junta,being led by its tail into battle by US mil. advisers with White House blessings,are doing everything on the battlefield to hold the ground in the east and marginalise the Donetsk forces.Right from the beginning of the crisis Pres.Putin has been consistent in that he has wanted he east populated primarily by ethnic Russians to have more autonomy and a closer relationship with Russia,economically,with no NATO membership of the Ukraine as an alternative to annexing the region. Ukraine could then have it both ways.The western half with a close eco link to the EU and the eastern half with close eco ties to Russia,which would allow its energy requirements to be stabilised for the long term.

Unfortunately all this is anathema for the neo-Cold Warriors of the US who want to "punish" Russia in their clumsy attempts to fix responsibility for it in the "false flag" MH tragedy.Social media gossip is being used as authentic intel by JoKerry and co.Pathetic! Unfortunately,even in the US less people believe the lies as can be seen by former US intel officers and military experts. However,these elements in the US will do their utmost to sabotage the Merkel-Putin deal.There is a long way to go before the Ukraine crisis is resolved.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/why-asia ... -for-mh17/

Why Asia Won’t Sanction Russia for MH17
The U.S. is trying to pressure Asia into imposing sanctions on Russia. This effort is almost certainly futile.
zachary-keck_q
By Zachary Keck
July 31, 2014

The U.S. is pushing Asian nations to join it and the European Union in sanctioning Russia for the shooting down of MH17. It’s unlikely to have much success.

A senior State Department official– which, although unnamed in the reports is almost certainly Peter Harrell, deputy secretary of state for counter threat finance and sanctions– briefed reporters about the renewed effort on Wednesday during a one-day stop in Singapore. The American diplomat traveled to China and South Korea before landing in Singapore, and he intends to spend Thursday and Friday in Japan in an effort to get the region on board with sanctions against Russia. According to the Wall Street Journal, the diplomat was meeting with government officials and private-sector leaders in each country he visited.

“It’s certainly our hope that countries in this region—which includes many significant financial and commercial centers—would join us in putting pressure [on Russia],” the State Department official said, according to WSJ. He also said the meetings were aimed at explaining what the U.S. has already done, what it might do in the future and answering any questions.

The U.S. and EU on Tuesday announced new sanctions this week against Russia’s banking, energy and defense industries in the wake of the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 earlier this month.

To date, Asia has not shown much appetite for sanctioning Russia over events in the Ukraine. Only Japan and Australia have imposed sanctions on Russia for its annexation of Crimea and interference in eastern Ukraine. Australia didn’t impose any sanctions until June. Japan acted more quickly and slightly more forcefully. In March it suspended visa talks with Russia following its annexation of Crimea. Then, in April it imposed visa bans on 23 Russian individuals. More notably, as Ankit reported, earlier this week Japan announced it was imposing additional sanctions against individuals and groups involved with the annexation of Crimea. It also said it would curtail imports from the Crimea and freeze funds intended for new projects in Russia. Although these latest sanctions have slightly more substance, they are relatively minor compared with the sectoral sanctions the West has adopted.

Despite Asia’s reluctance to sanction Russia thus far, the American diplomat in Asia this week expressed optimism that the shooting down of MH17 will spur the region into action. “MH17 being shot down brought home to the world that this is a global problem,” the diplomat was quoted as saying.

Don’t bet on it. At most, a few Asian nations will adopt largely symbolic sanctions against Russia– but even this is far from guaranteed.

China is in many ways the least likely to impose sanctions on Russia for the MH17 incident. To begin with, President Xi Jinping has made strengthening ties with Russia a top priority of his foreign policy. Moreover, as noted last week, China has been more critical of the West’s response to MH17 than Russia’s involvement. In any case, Beijing has strong economic interests in Russia and it almost always puts its narrow self-interests above solving “global problems.”

India is nearly as unlikely as China to impose sanctions. Russia and India have longstanding ties based on each side sticking by the other during times of need. Indeed, India was the only major country to (more or less) openly support Russia’s annexation of Crimea back in March. It also remains highly reliant on Russia arms, and won’t risk pushing Moscow closer to Beijing over “global problems” that have little to do with India itself.

Singapore typically only supports sanctions endorsed by the UN Security Council, which are unlikely to happen given Moscow’s veto power in that body. Moreover, as a financial hub– along with Hong Kong– it is likely to benefit from any Western financial sanctions that restricts Russia’s access to London financial markets.

South Korea also seems unlikely to adopt sanctions against Russia. Just last week South Korean Ambassador to Russia Wi Sung-lac said that South Korea had no plans to follow America and Europe’s lead in adopting sanctions. Then, after the meeting with the U.S. official this week, a spokeswoman for South Korea’s Foreign Ministry reaffirmed it hasn’t committed to sanctions. If it didn’t do so over Russia’s annexation of Crimea, it is unlikely to do so because of MH17. Like Crimea, it lacks a direct connection to the shooting down of MH17. Unlike Crimea, Russia can maintain some plausible deniability in the downing of MH17.

Furthermore, South Korea has economic and political interests in maintaining strong ties to Russia. Indeed, President Park Geun-hye has sought to deepen ties with Russia during her tenure, with Vladimir Putin even visiting Seoul briefly last fall. Already, two way trade between the countries is around $17.5 billion annually, and Seoul and Moscow are looking to triple direct investment flows over a two year period. South Korea is also trying to capitalize on Russia’s growing isolation with the West. Just last week, South Korean debt investors met with officials from Russia’s third largest bank to discuss investing in the company. Russia also holds vast amounts of energy reserves, which South Korea would like to tap into in the future. Finally, South Korea knows that Russia could use its ties with North Korea to retaliate against Seoul for any action it takes against Moscow. Maintaining Russia’s support on North Korea is far more important to South Korea than the Ukraine.

In many ways, Australia seems like a strong candidate to impose stronger sanctions against Russia. As noted above, it has already sanctioned Russia over the Ukraine. More importantly, 36-38 Australians died on MH17 (news sources differ on the exact number), and Prime Minister Tony Abbott has been as vocal as any other world leader in condemning Russia for its role in the plane’s downing.

“Russian-controlled territory, Russian-backed rebels, quite likely a Russian-supplied weapon. Russia can’t wash its hands of this,” was how Abbott put it on Australian national television earlier this month.

Rhetoric aside, however, Abbott has pursued an engagement strategy towards Russia and President Putin since MH17 in an attempt to get Moscow to force the Ukrainian rebels to allow for the victims’ bodies to be taken out of the country. Abbott also seeks Russia’s help in ensuring a full investigation takes place.

In order to achieve this, Abbott has all but ruled out more sanctions against Russia. Indeed, when asked if Australia would follow the EU and America’s lead in imposing new sanctions on Russia this week, Abbott said, “I know that various things are happening in Europe and elsewhere. That is a matter for the Europeans and others. We are just focused on getting onto the site as quickly as we can. We want to get in, we want to get cracking and we want to get out.”

He added: “We already have some sanctions on Russia. I’m not saying that we might not at some point in the future move further. But at the moment, our focus is not on sanctions.” As more time passes, and the victims’ remains are returned home, any impetus to punish Russia for the incident is likely to fade.

Which leaves Japan. Tokyo is the Asian nation most likely to impose additional sanctions on Russia for MH17. As noted above, Japan has already taken the lead in imposing sanctions against Russia for events in the Ukraine. This is a reflection of its need to retain the support of its G7 allies, and particularly the United States.

Nonetheless, as Ankit and I noted on a recent podcast, and Clint also discussed on Tokyo report, Japan’s response to MH17 will be tempered by Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s desire to achieve a rapprochement with Russia. Even after Russia’s annexation of Crimea– which for Japan was far more worrisome than MH17 given the potential for China to replicate the model in Asia– Abe confirmed that he still wants Putin to visit Tokyo this fall, and even suggested that Japan will take the lead in bringing Russia back into the G8.

As such, Japan’s sanctions to date have been crafted with an eye towards not scuttling the potential rapprochement with Moscow. Furthermore, Russia is well aware of Tokyo’s desire to improve bilateral ties, and has sought to play on Japan’s fears that imposing sanctions will scuttle that possibility. After Japan announced its most recent sanctions this week, for instance, Russia’s Foreign Ministry issued a statement warning, “The imposition by Tokyo of new sanctions on Russia … inevitably threaten a whole range of bilateral relations, and set them back.”

At most, then, Japan will only adopt whatever sanctions are necessary to appease Washington. This may be no sanctions at all. The Japanese government is trying to skirt the issue by insisting that it needs to focus on implementing the new sanctions it imposed on Monday. It can also try to play the Iran sanctions card with the U.S. to avoid having to adopt new sanctions on Russia. If Japan is ultimately forced to adopt some sanctions against Russia over MH17, they are likely to be entirely symbolic and not felt much in Moscow.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

US is using MH-17 as a Pivot to sanction Russia ....All the more reason to believe MH-17 tragedy is far from unplanned event but something in with US Intel has been involved in some ways.

In any case far worse events have happened in the past like US Invading Iraq on Flimsy grounds or Iran Aircraft getting shot or current Gaza Conflict but no one is sanctioning any country for that.

The current conflict should be a Wake Up Call for Kremlin who have been cozy with Europe and the Oligarch/Citizen who thought of them more European then Asian ......Doing Business with West has its own risk as it now learns the hard way and doing Business with Asia and more specifically India , China and BRICS would be highly benefitial in long run. Only India and China are guaranteed to grow for years to come.
Last edited by Austin on 31 Jul 2014 15:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

UN says has no proof of Russia’s arms supplies to east Ukraine militia
GENEVA, July 31. /ITAR-TASS/. The United Nations has no proofs of Russia’s alleged arms supplies to self-defense militias in the east Ukrainian Donetsk and Luhansk regions, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navanethen Pillay said on Thursday.

The UN commissioner said the United Nations had not found any firm evidence of Russia’s arms supplies to the east Ukrainian militias.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

I hope the Russians don't actually sit around trying to get certificates from the UN while the Donbass region burns. NATO is going to work its way up to the Dnieper no matter what, so it's better to stop them there, with the region east of the Dnieper not completely destroyed, and no more airliners downed just to give NATO more excuses.

Given that the UkBapZis are an illegal govt that came to power in a violent coup, and that they are using tanks and warplanes and shelling the civilians in East Ukraine, the only question is:
Are Putin's forces ready for a swift takeover and holding of East Ukraine?
Or are they so vulnerable that NATO might be able to sweep all the way to the Russian border AND isolate/invade Crimea?

The whole issue here, I think, is that the Russian 'liberation' of Crimea puts the UkBapZis in a long-term unsustainable mode. The takleef about East Ukraine is mostly a feint. West Oirope and Yoo Ess would be much happier to see East Ukraine's industrial base totally destroyed, so that the UkBapZis can be kept as Zamindars, holding the whip on the half-starved farmers and technicians in Ukraine, and channeling IMF handouts to the Arms lobby. Oh, yes! cut the social programs, Ukraine needs the Tornado and a few nuclear submarines! And should be "partners" in the Oiropean Missile Shield.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Jarita »

Check out this CT on the flight shoot down. It is completely weird. States that Namo was target

http://www.politicsparty.com/shownews.php?newsid=486
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ramana »

This was postulated on the day of the MH17 incident.

And its no CT.

On this forum we used to pohh pooh many theories as CT and they all turned out to be true.


So I am going ot put you on the spot.

Why is the above a CT?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Jarita »

Because a random rebel missile cannot target PM's plane. He has the same security level as US plane. There are two planes that go.
That plane cannot be targeted
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ramana »

How do you know its not a Ukranian govt unit?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Jarita »

That plane is a fortress and the Indian prime minister is not a global threat. Putin is
Till Modi is signing checks to global players, FDI etc he will be fine.
When he thumbs them a.la Indira Gandhi in 1970/71 and then later and Rajiv Gandhi with the LTTE, we need to start worrying about his security in a big way.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

Without clicking on it, I post-ulate that it is the story titled something like "NaMO's plane was real target".

All I can say is that Indian Babucracy was stupid (as usual) to allow PM's plane to be anywhere NEAR that region, and allow UkBapZis to decide where it flew.

What is wrong is that the UkBapZis scrambled at least two Su-25s (they claim they were Su-27s) so they had enough time to make a visual ID. Even UkBapZis are literate enough to tell the diff between Malaysia and Air India, even if the radar controllers totally screwed up.

There was far more to gain by downing a random plane and blaming the rebels and Russia, since it has become clear now that the intent was to put sanctions, give the UkBapZis enough time to invade DonBass, and collect resources to invade Crimea.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Jarita »

UlanBatori wrote:Without clicking on it, I post-ulate that it is the story titled something like "NaMO's plane was real target".

All I can say is that Indian Babucracy was stupid (as usual) to allow PM's plane to be anywhere NEAR that region, and allow UkBapZis to decide where it flew.

What is wrong is that the UkBapZis scrambled at least two Su-25s (they claim they were Su-27s) so they had enough time to make a visual ID. Even UkBapZis are literate enough to tell the diff between Malaysia and Air India, even if the radar controllers totally screwed up.

There was far more to gain by downing a random plane and blaming the rebels and Russia, since it has become clear now that the intent was to put sanctions, give the UkBapZis enough time to invade DonBass, and collect resources to invade Crimea.

Why does everything have to be "Indian Babucracy was stupid". Why so much self flagellation? I think Indian babucracy given resources, complexity and constraints has been bloody brilliant over the last 60 years and stupid in parts.
Anyway, this is OT for thread.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Was Modi really travelling in this official 737 BBJ or was he using one of those Air India 747 .....I think for the BRICS sumit it was the latter which is a normal commercial aircraft and not a specialised one

I dont have much trust on the security 737 BBJ that our top politician uses , It a black box built to specification and we really have no control over it , US would have easily added Kill Switches in them and perhaps even bugging device that can be activated any time they wish.

Remember the incident where Chinese President 747 built by US was found with dozens of bug and he refused to use it.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Russia Could Face Recession by Year-End Due to Western Sanctions – Senator

MOSCOW, July 31 (RIA Novosti) – Stiffer economic penalties on the Russian economy could push it into an early recession by the turn of the year, a senior Russian lawmaker warned Thursday.

“The sanctions are very likely to cause a slump in GDP growth, with a recession looming even before the end of the year,” First Deputy Chairman of Russia’s Federation Council Economic Policy Committee Yuri Shamkov told RIA Novosti.

Shamkov stressed that the EU ban on the nation’s state-owned banks to raise long-term funding in Europe could hit the Russian economy particularly hard “This particular measure can deal a serious blow to our economy and consumers, because it will further complicate access to credit-related funds, which has been hard enough due to unscrupulous banking,” Shamkov noted.

The senator said Russia could look for long-term loans in China and other fellow BRICS member states – Brazil, India, and South Africa – although, he added, the third-tier sanctions will eventually hurt the liquidity of assets inside the country.

The lawmaker said a weaker ruble could lower some costs for the Russian economy. “I’d push the ruble lower as this step would increase the liquidity of our funds, give a competitive edge to our producers, expand export markets, boost tax revenues and create more jobs,” Shamkov said.

Earlier today, the European Council announced it had adopted “restrictive measures” against Moscow over Russia’s alleged involvement in the Ukrainian crisis, two days after agreeing on a new set of economic sanctions.

The third round of penalties limited Russian state-owned financial institutions' access to EU capital markets, imposed an embargo on trade in arms, established an export ban for dual-use goods for military end users, and curtailed Russian access to sensitive technologies, particularly in the oil sector.

Moscow has repeatedly said the measures are counterproductive, and warned they will hurt Europe no less than Russia.

The European Union takes more than 45 percent of Russia’s exports, while Russia receives less than 3 percent of EU exports, according to BBC. It also said that “for the first time, the Russians are going to realize that they in fact can live without the global financial services industry.”
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ramana »

What we are seeing is economic warfare led by US just as we saw during the Great Depression. At that time Smoot-Hawley Act was enacted and had reciprocal tariffs and halted all the trade and drove teh Depression deeper.

And the irony is BO admiistration is pushing for Open Trade Policy at WTO!!!!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

Why does everything have to be "Indian Babucracy was stupid". Why so much self flagellation? I think Indian babucracy given resources, complexity and constraints has been bloody brilliant over the last 60 years and stupid in parts.
Exactly what "resources" were needed to ensure that the Prime Minister's plane (or ANY Indian commercial aircraft!) did not fly over a known war zone where many aircraft had already been shot down, and SAMs were known to be in operation, please? If it is OK to be :(( :(( :eek: :(( about how close PM and co-passengers and crew came to being pieces of rotting flesh in the Ukrainian fields, and pushing CTs that the Target was the PM's plane, then why is it not OK to ask why no elementary precautions were taken to avoid this zone?

So yes, if the PM's plane was anywhere near being in danger (and now we hear it was within 6 minutes and took basically the same flight path..) then the "stupid in parts" part applies, hain? What is "self-flagellating" about it? If this was "brilliant", then the proper CT should be that someone in the Indian Babucracy planned to assassinate the PM - and failed narrowly.

What next? Fly low-level over Gaza towards Israel on a ballistic trajectory? Fly under the radar across the Iran/Iraq/Syria borders? Buzz an Iceland volcano? Dare an Atlantic hurricane? Bisect a tornado?
UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

BTW, US stock market is tanking today citing Ukraine jollies.
Vayutuvan
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Vayutuvan »

>> What next? Fly low-level over Gaza towards Israel on a ballistic trajectory? Fly under the radar across the Iran/Iraq/Syria borders? Buzz an Iceland volcano? Dare an Atlantic hurricane? Bisect a tornado?
Now that is brilliant(ly put).
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:What we are seeing is economic warfare led by US just as we saw during the Great Depression. At that time Smoot-Hawley Act was enacted and had reciprocal tariffs and halted all the trade and drove teh Depression deeper.

And the irony is BO admiistration is pushing for Open Trade Policy at WTO!!!!
During that period they removed the credit and money suply which resulted in depression (1929-1932)
Read the depression era history. They are trying to cover the mistakes they made in that period.
.
Now they they have increased money supply and giving zero interest credit for $ economy
And now they want to re order the global trade for their $ benfit with the assumption that economic problems can be isolated to certain regions

Open Trade Policy at WTO for only $ based trade and economy!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ldev »

Deleted.
Last edited by ldev on 01 Aug 2014 09:18, edited 1 time in total.
ldev
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ldev »

More seriously, it is blatant economic warfare. The reserve currency issuing country has to be fair in its dealings i.e. it cannot dilute the savings of the world by issuing currency, only to dip into the pool to finance its geopolitical objectives and precluding countries which do not agree with it from using the system.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

US is using MH-17 as a Pivot to sanction Russia ....All the more reason to believe MH-17 tragedy is far from unplanned event but something in with US Intel has been involved in some ways.
Quite right.

We had the "Big Lie" about Iraq's non-existant WMDs and Tony B.Liar's scaremongering about Saddam's tactical missiles as if they were BMs to get the Brit. parliament to vote to invade.So what has been perpetrated in the Ukraine with the available evidence and serious doubts expressed by experts indicate that ruling out a "false flag" op. orchestrated by the UKR forces would be hasty.The sped with which the US has gone to town blaming Russia is simply outrageous and highly suspicious.How did it react when it shot down by design the Iranian Airbus?It simply shrugged off the event as if the Iranians deserved it!Here the tragedy is being seen as a mistake,whether allegedly by pro-Russian separatist forces,not by intent.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

BTW, thinking more on the NaMo Air India snafu, my point is that India needs to get a bit more sophisticated about the travels of her Top Officials. It is tiresome to read of the George Fernandes-NewYork snafu, the unending Abdul Kalam snafus... the NannyGate Snafus..

It is one thing to point to the Evil Paco/Pleet Bhalalas, but there are a few things that the GOI needs to learn as well. Inside India, Officials, down to the lowliest Govt Chaprassi, move around like royalty. No need for any planning, they can delay people for hours or days, march into any place and expect everyone to bow and scrape and genuflect and obey their every command.

Overseas, they just come across as Baboon (generic plural of Baboo). Unprepared, incompetent, bungling idiots. And they NEVER seem to learn.

For instance, consider this: Suppose u are the Baboo in charge of the logistics of getting the PM from Dilli to Ahmedabad by ground travel (flights cancelled due to fog at Dilli and rain at A'bad. Would you put him on the bus going through Sahranpur and Mau and Meerut, given that there are communal riots underway/likely in these places?

Same level of foresight and caution are needed in planning international travel as well, the job is not done by putting a red carpet at the entrance to the airport, and then turning over the VIP to the ourangutans of the airlines/airline security/ Ukrainian ATC. Some serious chains have to be pulled, and the PM's route laid out with proper protocol and pomp. And security.

The MH-17 tragedy was a close call, waaaay too close a call, for India. Just imagine... no, I can't. But it IS the job of those planning these trips to imagine that and a lot worse.

Now think about the coming tamasha in DC/NYC. Already there are reports of the Madison Garden snafu, etc. Alarming, to put it extremely mildly.

I hope some Baboon read all this and get mad enough at least to warm up their grey cells, and do some actual intelligent planning and precautions!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Singha »

Ulan, a lot of low caliber people must be in top echelons of IAS and IFS - many congi bag carriers, dynasts who long ago lost their youthful intelligence and drive for results.

and this happened over 6 decades so the rot runs deep. they can at most be sidelined and the country has to revamp its UPSC selection boards and in-career grooming system to break the old patronage networks. wont happen unless BJP enjoys a 20 year reign at the top.
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