Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 09 Aug 2014 23:34

^^If russia was so advanced they'd not be buying Mistrals from France. It was mentioned sometime back at BRF that even the production quality of russian naval and air platforms have improved 'cause they are buying the tooling machines from france.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Aug 2014 01:03

A country can be pretty advanced in some areas and fall behind in others. Buying tooling from abroad is the case for some efforts not all and more a reflection of cost pressures. In Soviet times, they'd make as much as possible within, but its expensive. Now even PAKFA uses commercial CAD-CAM, PLM sw.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 10 Aug 2014 14:42

Russians made big leap in sub noise reduction after they bought 3D CNC machines from japan for propellor maching as per US reports

Mistral fabrication was done in Russia and shipped for final fitment to France. It does not look like an outright purchase from France

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 10 Aug 2014 15:35

^ 5 Axis machine from Toshiba, Japan. Used the propeller on the Kilo class sub, NATO codename "Black hole".

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Aug 2014 06:20

Russian yards are full up with orders.If one looks at Russian naval construction during Soviet times,with no "expeditionary" read invasion doctrine unlike the US and NATO,there was little need for large amphibs.The Ivan Rogov amphibs were the largest in the Soviet navy.Adm.Gorshkov however realised that the Soviets needed carriers too,which Marshal Malenkov once described as being "the 5th hind leg of a dog". The Soviets placed huge emphasis upon their missile armament whether it was based on land or as Gorshkov brilliantly did,on warships and subs.Russian Kashin class DDGs had their anti-carrier missiles facing rearward,based upon firing their missiles when retiring at high speed to escape attack.The Oscar SSGN class with its heavy anti-carrier missiles were built one for every USN carrier.This led to the development of the Moscow helicopter carriers and then the Kiev class hybrids followed by the Varyag/Kuznetsov class.

The main threats to Russia historically came from land.Napoleon,Hitler,and similarly in the east with mongol invasions.Amphibious warfare was seen as India does,more in defending Russian/Soviet island territories,Sakhalin,etc.,than as said before indulging in invading nations in full force as the US has done over the last century.It was only with the spat with Georgia that Russia realised that it required larger and better equipped amphib vessels and since designing it at home would take time,with few yards free given the huge sub-building effort going on,such ships could be acquired from abroad swiftly and assembled in modules at home.Given the post CW thaw with the EU,where European engine manufacturers were providing aero-engines for Russian civilian aircraft,and had opened up some milware too,the French took the lead in scoring a big win with the Mistrals. Now that the Ukranian crisis has exploded,the French (who have been saying that the deal was pre-UKR crisis and must go through) are under intense pressure not to sell these ships to Russia and since no European navy on its own can afford them,instead allow the EU to buy them! The US is actively pursuing this move to deny Russia's navy these formidable warships.Whether the French can hold out is the big Q.Russia has already banned EU foods in retaliation for sanctions.The EU,esp. the French are heavily dependent upon exports of food and wine.Perhaps they may allow the first two to leave saying that it was too late to do so and sell the remaining two to the "EU" navy,whoever that is!

Now India has also in recent times woken up to the need for amphibs.Some may remember my crusade for the same a decade earlier.To acquire multi-role amphibs that could "swing" in any role,amphib ops,amphib air support,ASW warfare,fleet air cover,disaster relief,etc.,using a combination of helos and aircraft,STOVL type.With the Gripen/Viraat concept and on offer,the little NLCA or Gripen could operate from a Juan Carlos sized amphib.Thus in effect we would have 3 CVs plus 4 amphibs with their significant air capability as well,perfect for both IOR and trans-ocean operations.he Mistral is a little too small and is one deck less than a JC class,which Oz is building for its navy.Incidentally,Japan's "super-destroyer",the Osumi,is in reality a light carrier which will in the future most probably operate the USMC version of the JSF to counter the PLAN.Expect more "super-destroyers " and even "super-cruisers" ,even ;larger flat tops coming out of Japan's yards.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Aug 2014 07:36

>> Russian yards are full up with orders

are you sure? only their nuclear submarine arm seems to receive the bulk of funding.

http://russian-ships.info/eng/today/

they have not built any LPD, carrier, DDG, large FFG at all since 1990 I think. only few coastal patrol OPV type units.
their udaloy, kara, kresta, kirovs are all either retired or really old now.

I think a Udaloy2 design with VLS shtil was unveiled but not sure if any are being built.

in the 25 yrs since 1990 we have added 3 brahmaputra, 2 P17, 3 Delhi, 1 Kolkata, 6 Talwar, 1 Trenton, 1 Gorshkov, numerous Sukanya class, 1 P28, Sarayu class to our large surface combatant list. also around 7 Kilos ending in 2000. plus arihant. plus akula. plus fleet support ships like aditya, jyoti and the 3 new ones we got from Italy. Magar class as well.

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Aug 2014 12:48

Austin wrote:Indian Navy commissions new VLF facility in Tamil Nadu

The Indian Navy (IN) inaugurated a new very low frequency (VLF) transmitting station on 31 July at INS Kattaboman, near Tirunelvelli in Tamil Nadu, boosting its ability to communicate continuously with operationally deployed ships and submerged submarines.

The new facility accompanies the navy's existing VLF station, which has been in operation for the last 24 years.

Sporting the highest mast structures in India, the new station strengthens the current infrastructure, enhancing its reach, redundancy, and operational capabilities.

Constructed by private defence contractor Larsen & Toubro (L&T) under the navy's Project Amber, the VLF station was approved by the Indian Ministry of Defence's Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan (LTIPP) and the IN's Maritime Capability Perspective Plan (MCCP) 2007-22.

Just curious to know ..does the Indian Navy use both VLF and ELF for sub communications ..wiki thinks so .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency

Ajit.C · Post by **Ajit.C** » 11 Aug 2014 13:50

Navy bends rule to promote Admiral Dhowan's staff officer - India Today

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/navy ... 76035.html

In an unusual step that many believe has been taken to benefit a key aide of Navy Chief Admiral R.K. Dhowan, the Navy HQ has bent the rules for promotion of officers to the rank of Captain by approving a controversial 'one time dispensation' that does away with the need for the officer to spend mandatory time at sea.

The one time exception, issued by Naval HQ last month, also gives officers who have not qualified for the key 'Command Exam' another attempt to appear and qualify for the rank of Captain. The one time exception was issued on July 18 by Rear Admiral S.N. Ghormade, the Assistant Chief of Personnel.

Part of the July 18 circular.Part of the July 18 circular.

The circular said that the additional attempt for appearing in the Command Exam was issued due to a 'number of requests in the recent past'. However, what has touched a raw nerve for many in the Navy is that the exception has led to Commander Satpal Singh, the staff officer to the Navy chief making it to the rank of a Captain despite not qualifying earlier for it.

The circular has also given exemption for mandatory one year service at sea for executive officers for attaining the rank of a Captain. The contention by many within the Navy is that both exceptions have been given to benefit only Commander Singh who has been on the staff of Admiral Dhowan for over six years.

"The officer neither qualified for command exam nor did his mandatory sea time. Now these are the two critical criteria's that have been tweaked in the one- time exception. All he now needs to do is clear the command exam and he shall become captain without serving time at sea," an officer who does not want to reveal his identity said.

From the circular

While the circular and exception itself had raised questions by many in the navy, a list of officers considered for promotion to the rank of Captain that was released by Navy HQ on August 4 contains the name of the Navy Chief's staff officer in the deferred list, qualifying him to the next post based on the exception.

While the order has raised much talk within the Navy, no formal reaction has come from HQ yet on the issue. However, senior officers have held that the promotion process of the Navy is fair and that only deserving candidates qualify for senior posts.

The August 4 order

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Aug 2014 22:42

Ajit.C wrote:Navy bends rule to promote Admiral Dhowan's staff officer - India Today

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/navy ... 76035.html

In an unusual step that many believe has been taken to benefit a key aide of Navy Chief Admiral R.K. Dhowan, the Navy HQ has bent the rules for promotion of officers to the rank of Captain by approving a controversial 'one time dispensation' that does away with the need for the officer to spend mandatory time at sea.

The one time exception, issued by Naval HQ last month, also gives officers who have not qualified for the key 'Command Exam' another attempt to appear and qualify for the rank of Captain. The one time exception was issued on July 18 by Rear Admiral S.N. Ghormade, the Assistant Chief of Personnel.

Part of the July 18 circular.Part of the July 18 circular.

The circular said that the additional attempt for appearing in the Command Exam was issued due to a 'number of requests in the recent past'. However, what has touched a raw nerve for many in the Navy is that the exception has led to Commander Satpal Singh, the staff officer to the Navy chief making it to the rank of a Captain despite not qualifying earlier for it.

The circular has also given exemption for mandatory one year service at sea for executive officers for attaining the rank of a Captain. The contention by many within the Navy is that both exceptions have been given to benefit only Commander Singh who has been on the staff of Admiral Dhowan for over six years.

"The officer neither qualified for command exam nor did his mandatory sea time. Now these are the two critical criteria's that have been tweaked in the one- time exception. All he now needs to do is clear the command exam and he shall become captain without serving time at sea," an officer who does not want to reveal his identity said.

From the circular

While the circular and exception itself had raised questions by many in the navy, a list of officers considered for promotion to the rank of Captain that was released by Navy HQ on August 4 contains the name of the Navy Chief's staff officer in the deferred list, qualifying him to the next post based on the exception.

While the order has raised much talk within the Navy, no formal reaction has come from HQ yet on the issue. However, senior officers have held that the promotion process of the Navy is fair and that only deserving candidates qualify for senior posts.

The August 4 order

If one lies down with dogs, one will get up with fleas!!

What else did one expect??

John · Post by **John** » 12 Aug 2014 01:50

Singha wrote:>> Russian yards are full up with orders

are you sure? only their nuclear submarine arm seems to receive the bulk of funding.

http://russian-ships.info/eng/today/

they have not built any LPD, carrier, DDG, large FFG at all since 1990 I think. only few coastal patrol OPV type units.
their udaloy, kara, kresta, kirovs are all either retired or really old now.

I think a Udaloy2 design with VLS shtil was unveiled but not sure if any are being built.

in the 25 yrs since 1990 we have added 3 brahmaputra, 2 P17, 3 Delhi, 1 Kolkata, 6 Talwar, 1 Trenton, 1 Gorshkov, numerous Sukanya class, 1 P28, Sarayu class to our large surface combatant list. also around 7 Kilos ending in 2000. plus arihant. plus akula. plus fleet support ships like aditya, jyoti and the 3 new ones we got from Italy. Magar class as well.

6 Admiral Grigorovich frigates (similar to Talwar) are to inducted in next 3 years and 2 Gorshkov class FFG are in trials with 2 more in construction. Also they have multiple 20380 Corvette's in construction and 5 inducted which can be compared to P-28, the newer ones are much more heavily armed thou. In sheer numbers of surface vessels under construction they do have more than IN but there yards are no where close to being as busy as soviet era.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Aug 2014 03:20

The 6 Talwars were built in Russia,plus it built 4 new Sov. DDGs for China.Plus numerous smaller frigates and corvettes.

total for the Russian Navy as of 17.11.2013: 41 contracted combat ships, incl. 2 universal amphibious assault ships, 2 large amphibious assault ships, 14 frigates, 15 corvettes, 8 small missile boats. Of these, 24 ships are under construction, incl. 2 universal amphibious assault ships, 2 large amphibious assault ships, 9 frigates, 5 corvettes, 6 small missile boats. Six of these ships have been launched, incl. 1 universal amphibious assault ship, 1 large amphibious assault ship, 1 frigate, 1 corvette, and 2 small missile boats.

Several type 22350 Adm.Gorshkov class FFGs 14 planned 9 built/under construction.
6 Adm.Grigorovich-similar to our Talwar class planned for the Black Sea Fleet.
15 planned 20380 Stereguschii corvettes,6 under construction.
Several Buyan missile corvettes.There are new DDGs/FFG designs in the works to replace the Soviet era CGs,DDGs and FFGs too.

Here's an interesting note on the importance of the Black Sea Fleet (BSF) in Russian naval strategy.

March 6, 2014
The role of the Black Sea Fleet in Russian naval strategy

The Russian military analyst Prokhor Tebin has put together a very useful article explaining Crimea’s military significance for Russia. He highlights the Black Sea’s economic significance for Russia: Russia’s Black Sea commercial ports carry 30 percent of its total maritime exports. The Black Sea also provides the closest access for Russia to the Mediterranean Sea and Indian Ocean, which is important for both economic and geopolitical reasons. Tebin points out that the Black Sea Fleet is needed to ensure that access, as well as to deal with potential instability in the Caucasus. It will also serve as a logistics hub for the Mediterranean task force that the Russian navy has decided to form, though ships for the task force will come from other fleets as well. He ranks the fleet third in importance for the Russian Navy, behind the Northern and Pacific Fleets, but ahead of the Baltic Fleet and the Caspian Flotilla.

The composition of the fleet is currently inadequate for its missions. It has only a few old Soviet-era ships: one missile cruiser, three frigates, seven large amphibious ships, and one diesel submarine. It has not received any new combat ships since 1990, while almost all of its existing ships will need to be decommissioned fairly soon. Tebin compares the strength of the BSF to the Turkish navy, which includes 16 frigates, 8 corvettes, and 14 diesel submarines, with more ships on the way. To change the situation, Russia is currently building six new Talwar-class frigates and six improved Kilo class diesel submarines for the BSF. The fleet may also get some small missile ships and gunboats, as well as new minesweepers. Tebin considers this an absolute minimum for the BSF and argues that it will still not be enough to fulfill all of the fleet’s missions or to restore the balance of power in the Black Sea. He also calls for the development of additional shore-based infrastructure, especially in Novorossiisk. However, the latter port is inferior in location and climate conditions to Sevastopol, being subject to the extremely strong wind known as Bora. This relatively unpredictable wind, with speeds registered at over 200km/hour, has in the past damaged ships at pier. The location of Novorossiisk is also far less central than Sevastopol and the harbor is inferior. For these reasons, Tebin argues that Novorossiisk can only serve a complementary role for the Black Sea Fleet, while Sevastopol must remain its main base for the foreseeable future.

https://russiamil.wordpress.com/category/russian-navy/

USNI,"Rennaissance of the Russian navy":
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedin ... ssian-navy

Russia’s streamlined shipbuilding capacity is beginning to show progress in the construction of several types of warships. The most publicized project is the development of the new Borey-class nuclear-powered ballistic-missile submarine (SSBN), planned to initiate eight hulls by 2017. The class leader, the Yuri Dolgorukiy , was commissioned in 2009 in St. Petersburg, following 25 years of sporadic construction, but follow-on building is adhering closely to original schedule. This class will replace the obsolescent Delta III and IV classes of SSBNs as the navy’s contribution to Russia’s strategic nuclear deterrent. The Yasen class of up to ten nuclear-powered guided-missile submarines (SSGNs) is led by the Severodvinsk , which was commissioned in 2010 after a 16-year building process. The Kazan , the second of the class, is scheduled for commissioning in 2013, only four years after construction began. Accelerated construction times for both classes of submarines are attributed to the “resumption of regular funding of defense contracts and newly established industrial cooperation.” 11

Surface-combatant construction is following the same trend. The 2007 launching of the Steregushchiy , a 2,100-ton corvette touted for her low-observable design along with a high degree of automation and combat-systems integration, signaled Russia’s return to developing its own surface-warfare fleet. While the lead ship took more than six years to deliver, her successors, the Soobrazitelniy (recently commissioned), Boiky , and Stoiky , are expected to follow in considerably less time. The plan is for 10–20 ships of this class, intended for coastal patrol and escort duties. Further, Russia has built frigates for the Indian Navy and is now beginning to produce three identical Project 11356 frigates for itself, scheduled to be homeported in the Black Sea. More formidably, Russian shipyards have just commissioned the first Admiral Gorshkov –class frigate. This 4,000-ton warship is equipped for modern antisubmarine and antisurface warfare as well as escort duties.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Aug 2014 19:14

Indian navy took delivery of another Tu-142ME antisubmarine aircraft

Ajit.C · Post by **Ajit.C** » 12 Aug 2014 20:48

Austin wrote:Indian navy took delivery of another Tu-142ME antisubmarine aircraft

The headline sounded like navy bought the 9th TU.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Aug 2014 07:59

I think IN is doing refurbishing and overhaul of its Tu-142ME fleet in order it can serve longer in IN fleet . Turboprops have real long life and I wont be surprised to see Tu-142 till 2030.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 13 Aug 2014 09:17

Are they being fitted to fire Air Launched Brahmos .

As two of them were to be fitted to carry Brahmos

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Aug 2014 11:03

no its just a engine overhaul I think. the avionics and payload remain the same as India rejected the $900 mil proposal for the same.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Aug 2014 14:23

This is interesting because the Bear overhaul/upgrade means that the IN values these aircraft which are being used even now by Russia as strategic bombers,which recently tested the UK's air defences.The incredible range o the Bears is unmatched by any aircraft in its class,able to fly to S.Africa and back without refuelling,far outranging the P-8Is, and in the China context would be able to carry any N-stand-off missile that we might develop such as N-Nirbhay apart from BMos variants. Russia has dozens of new TU-142s and IL-38s mothballed,so acquiring extra ones/replacements in the future are easy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Aug 2014 14:51

yes but considering the fee Rus would ensure to convert these ASW planes to the ALCM carrier role, might be too much for our pocket.

in any case brahmos-A and air launched nirbhay are just paper now and years away from realization.

I have a feeling Rus will put roadblocks in the way of mini-brahmos and brahmos-A

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Aug 2014 16:02

While the MOD delays the acquisition of sorely needed ASW helos for the various warships and carriers of the IN,just watch what China has done,developed its own version of the French Super Frelon.
With the AW scandal affecting all FM's wares,and a warning from the CAG(?) about the decision to ban the co.'s wares entirely,soem fast tracking must be done to alleviate the IN's woes,especially as even SAM systems (LR-SAM,Barak-8)are overdue/delayed for the Kolkatta class and the absence of any BPDMS/SAM system for the Vik-A makes the IN's warships vulnerable both to air and sub attack! Another report about warships "sharing" ASW helos between them is unacceptable.

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0813000053

The Z-18F helicopter, China's new anti-submarine weapon

To strengthen the anti-submarine capability of the People's Liberation Army Navy, Z-18F helicopters will likely serve on the Liaoning, the nation's first aircraft carrier, and the Type 071 Yuzhao-class amphibious transport docks, according to a report by the Hangzhou-based Qianjiang Evening News on Aug. 12.

The paper cited a Chinese military website which stated that the Z-18F is likely a modified version of the Z-8F helicopter designed based on the French-built SA 321 Super Frelon. From photos posted online, Chinese military expert Li Xiaojian told the paper that the Z-18F is probably equipped with four eight-tube sonobuoy launchers, allowing the helicopter to carry 32 sonobuoys. A US SH-60 Seahawk, in comparison, is only able to carry 25 sonobuoys, according to Li.

Li also stated that the Z-18F is likely able to carry four 324mm torpedos simultaneously with the two external stores support system it has. Most anti-submarine helicopters designed in Western nations such as the SH-60, the NH-90 and the Super Lynx are only able to carry two torpedoes. Li said, however, that Westland's EH-101 is a better and more advanced anti-submarine platform than the Z-18F.

As the Z-18F helicopter is bulky, weighing 13 tonnes, Li said that none of the destroyers or frigates the PLA Navy currently has in its possession are capable of carrying it, therefore, only large vessels like the Liaoning and the Type 071 amphibious transport dock can carry it.

Li said that there is also another version of the Z-18 helicopter called the Z-18J which is being designed as an early warning aircraft.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Aug 2014 17:03

No problem for our DDG/warship engines in future!

Engines for Russian naval ships will be made in Rybinsk instead of Ukraine's Nikolayev, says Rogozin
Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - http://rbth.com/news/2014/08/12/engines ... 38924.html)
14:04 August 12, 2014

Russia will relocate the production of gas turbine engines for naval frigates from the city of Nikolayev in Ukraine to Rybinsk, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said at a session at the A. M. Lyulki Experimental Design Bureau on Tuesday. "A typical example is what we plan to do in Rybinsk. It is effectively an example of import replacement of all services, which, regrettably, have become unavailable to us at the Zorya-Mashproekt plant in Nikolayev," he said. "In other words, the manufacturing of gas turbine engines for the Navy's surface ships will be placed [at the Saturn research and production association] in Rybinsk," he said. Why sanctions against arms companies are in the interests of U.S. producers Why sanctions against arms companies are in the interests of U.S. producers This work should be accomplished as soon as possible, the deputy prime minister said. The meeting at the A. M. Lyulki design bureau will also address the prospects for developing a new-generation strategic bomber. "The president has ordered the creation of such an airplane," Rogozin said. Issues concerning the production of PD-14 engines for Yakhovlev Yak-242 MS-21 airplanes, ways to reduce the aircraft engine industry's dependence on imports and diversify it will be discussed as well. All enterprises manufacturing engines for Russia's national needs should be located on Russian territory, the deputy prime minister said. "The deadline for replacing these imports announced by the president must be met. It is two or three years as the most," he said. Rogozin also called on the country's engine producers to "think how they can make up for lost time and secure a powerful technological breakthrough."

Something that India too must emulate.What news of the maritime version of Kaveri GTRE?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 13 Aug 2014 17:54

^ how about the zorya turbines already ordered for Project 15B?

With civil war ongoing in Ukraine ... the navy better brace for delays ...

titash · Post by **titash** » 13 Aug 2014 19:24

Philip wrote:While the MOD delays the acquisition of sorely needed ASW helos for the various warships and carriers of the IN,just watch what China has done,developed its own version of the French Super Frelon.
With the AW scandal affecting all FM's wares,and a warning from the CAG(?) about the decision to ban the co.'s wares entirely,soem fast tracking must be done to alleviate the IN's woes,especially as even SAM systems (LR-SAM,Barak-8)are overdue/delayed for the Kolkatta class and the absence of any BPDMS/SAM system for the Vik-A makes the IN's warships vulnerable both to air and sub attack! Another report about warships "sharing" ASW helos between them is unacceptable.

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0813000053
The Z-18F helicopter, China's new anti-submarine weapon

To strengthen the anti-submarine capability of the People's Liberation Army Navy, Z-18F helicopters will likely serve on the Liaoning, the nation's first aircraft carrier, and the Type 071 Yuzhao-class amphibious transport docks, according to a report by the Hangzhou-based Qianjiang Evening News on Aug. 12.

The paper cited a Chinese military website which stated that the Z-18F is likely a modified version of the Z-8F helicopter designed based on the French-built SA 321 Super Frelon. From photos posted online, Chinese military expert Li Xiaojian told the paper that the Z-18F is probably equipped with four eight-tube sonobuoy launchers, allowing the helicopter to carry 32 sonobuoys. A US SH-60 Seahawk, in comparison, is only able to carry 25 sonobuoys, according to Li.

Li also stated that the Z-18F is likely able to carry four 324mm torpedos simultaneously with the two external stores support system it has. Most anti-submarine helicopters designed in Western nations such as the SH-60, the NH-90 and the Super Lynx are only able to carry two torpedoes. Li said, however, that Westland's EH-101 is a better and more advanced anti-submarine platform than the Z-18F.

As the Z-18F helicopter is bulky, weighing 13 tonnes, Li said that none of the destroyers or frigates the PLA Navy currently has in its possession are capable of carrying it, therefore, only large vessels like the Liaoning and the Type 071 amphibious transport dock can carry it.

Li said that there is also another version of the Z-18 helicopter called the Z-18J which is being designed as an early warning aircraft.

Phillip, you missed the most important part - none of their frigates/destroyers can carry it. How often is a carrier or a Type 071 going to mount ASW patrols in defence of merchant shipping?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Aug 2014 19:43

can be used in numbers from the shore and islands.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 13 Aug 2014 23:42

Sorely needed ASW helos were delayed by IN as said in CAG report of 2010-11 when in spite of spending money on asw version of naval Dhruv was not ordered.

Of the initial requirement of 120 ALH of which 60 nos were asw version in CAG report it was reduced to 49 nos split between asw and utility version.

Initial requirement was of Seahawk dimension cabin to allow asw role with radar, son buoys, dunking sonar and mad.

In 2008 Ajay Shukla report IN had accepted the new folding main rotor design of 5.1m width and folding main rotor was no longer a problem where as media lobbying has been harping on this issue for last 6 years and spreading falsehood. In same report it was said that IN needs 3t or 10t helos and not 5.5t helo as it falls between two stools.

And then strangely the NLUH tender for 56nos is released for 4.5t and not 5.5t and it smells fishy.

Then for CG requirement for ship based helo of 6.5t naval panther and Dhruv are two contender and only Dhruv was RFP complaint and media lobbying goes to town saying the tender will be cancelled as it is a single vendor situation, strange.

An expert blogger claims that IN will never allow CG to have NAVAL DHRUV as then it will be forced to order them in large quantities.

In January 2014 CG chief bats for naval Dhruv and in July DAC orders 32 Dhruv for CG and IN for Rs 7000Cr.

Bell did not bid for IA IAF 197 luh helo and IN 56 NLUH as it did not feel chance of winning in presence of lobbies.

IN 56 NLUH was no go as only aw 109 and naval panther were bidders and aw was involved in scam and thus NAVAL Dhruv was ordered which even @4/yr will take up to 2018 to get to 16nos.

maz · Post by **maz** » 14 Aug 2014 04:43

I need some help in compiling the list of 44 naval vessels (warships) on order at various Indian yards

CSL
1 X P71 IAC-1

MDL
2 x P15A
4 x P15B
6 X P75 SSK

GRSE
8 X LCU Mk 4
3 X P28
4X FOWJFAC

Pipavav
5 x NOPV

ABG
3 x CTS

This brings us to 36 vessels

Others:
HSL
1 x OSS

SBC
3 x Arihant class SSGN

This brings us to 40 vessels.

I wonder if the other four are the 4 long overdue survey cats from AAG?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Aug 2014 06:08

I have listed the entire weapon and electronics on the ship

Indian Navy to induct INS Kolkata P-15A class destroyer on 16th August 2014

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2014 06:41

a particularly grevious loss has been the curtailment of the P28 to 4 from what was expected to be 12-16 initially due to escalating cost. its ridiculous to curtail such a important class of ships to 4 when the old godavari class(3) and brahmaputra class(3) will likely be out in a decade plus huge pending shortage of ASW units.

these could have taken over the bulk of ASW screening for convoys and operating areas of missile submarines, freeing up all other ships for offensive patrols.

its too early to list the P75 in any construction program, as we have no idea what sub it will be! the logical choices would be U216 or Soryu based but thats only our whining here. it will take years to tool and train up and start construction locally unless we order around 4 from OEM shipyard and then produce 8-12 locally.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 14 Aug 2014 10:41

chackojoseph wrote:I have listed the entire weapon and electronics on the ship

Indian Navy to induct INS Kolkata P-15A class destroyer on 16th August 2014

Nice Article with all onboard systems

. The ship does not carry addition Barak-8 missiles refills

That means 32 Barak's ready for fire Mode ..but once it fire all 32 there is no way of Reload again

is the same for Brahmos ...?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Aug 2014 14:52

Yes. As per current information, the ship has to be back for refills. But MDL said that they are looking at possibility of Barak-8 reload while at sea. One unit is above the helio deck and can be possibly reloaded. Brahmos, no way.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 14 Aug 2014 18:53

Thanks Chacko for the updates. the below quote is interesting and doesn't match with what we see on Google Maps. The pic seems to be recent as INS Kolkata seems to be out on trials.

All Scorpène-class submarine hulls have been manufactured and the first handover is scheduled by end of 2016.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Aug 2014 19:00

chackojoseph wrote:I have listed the entire weapon and electronics on the ship

Indian Navy to induct INS Kolkata P-15A class destroyer on 16th August 2014

Finally, we have a confirmation on the entire weapon capacity!

Fore

1 x 76mm main gun
2 × 8-cell UVLM for 16 BrahMos anti-ship and land-attack missiles
2 × 8-cell VLS units for Barak-8
2 x RBU-6000 units

Port/Starboard/Mid

4 x AK 630 close in Weapons System (CIWS)
4 x 533mm torpedo launchers for heavyweight torpedoes

Aft

2 × 8-cell VLS units for Barak-8
2 x Medium Helicopters (xx AShM; xx lightweight torpedos)

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Aug 2014 19:02

I took that pic yesterday. There was a media walkaround. So went there. More pics there, but this captures the part we are most important. She was getting ready for 16th commissioning.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 14 Aug 2014 19:52

Hi ... I was with Chacko Joseph at the Naval dockyards ... So this bit is confirmed - 32 Barak SAMS with no possibility of reload at sea - that requires cranes etc and wont happen. Cheers, Vishnu

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 14 Aug 2014 19:57

There is no Barak 1 for CIWS , just AK630 !!!!

John · Post by **John** » 14 Aug 2014 20:15

Barak-8 can be used for CIWS similar to ESSM. Looks like navy decided to minimize costs by reducing the VLS count to just 32 and carrying additional missiles for reload at a dock. No surprise there if Shivalik was adjusted for inflation it would cost more than P-15A and vessel costs lot less than the other DDGs in its class.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 14 Aug 2014 20:19

maz wrote:I need some help in compiling the list of 44 naval vessels (warships) on order at various Indian yards

What about the seven P17As?

I do not think that these 7 FFG are formally ordered yet.

titash · Post by **titash** » 14 Aug 2014 20:25

Singha wrote:a particularly grevious loss has been the curtailment of the P28 to 4 from what was expected to be 12-16 initially due to escalating cost. its ridiculous to curtail such a important class of ships to 4 when the old godavari class(3) and brahmaputra class(3) will likely be out in a decade plus huge pending shortage of ASW units.

these could have taken over the bulk of ASW screening for convoys and operating areas of missile submarines, freeing up all other ships for offensive patrols.

its too early to list the P75 in any construction program, as we have no idea what sub it will be! the logical choices would be U216 or Soryu based but thats only our whining here. it will take years to tool and train up and start construction locally unless we order around 4 from OEM shipyard and then produce 8-12 locally.

Singha-ji,
I think the P-16A will soldier on for 10-15 after the P-16 class is decomissioned...simply because the age of the hulls is way newer:

INS Godavari 10 December 1983 --> 31 years @ sea
INS Ganga 30 December 1985 --> 29 years @ sea
INS Gomati 16 April 1988 --> 26 years @sea
INS Brahmaputra 14 April 2000 --> 14 years @sea
INS Betwa 7 July 2004 --> 10 years @sea
INS Beas 11 July 2005 --> 9 years @sea

The 4x P-28 corvettes have a significantly better shipborne ASW sensor + weapon fit than either the 3x P-16 vessels to be decomissioned; not to mention the advances in quieting and stealth. The lack of a second Sea King platform can be more than made up with the 9x stealth OPVs that we are inducting. Looking at the size of the helipad & hangar in the below picture, there is no way this ship will just deploy a chetak/ALH during wartime:

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2014 20:37

tushar_m wrote:There is no Barak 1 for CIWS , just AK630 !!!!

then what is the small vls complex of missiles on top of the hanger?

John · Post by **John** » 14 Aug 2014 20:58

Singha

Here is picture from Livefist what are you referring to? Apart from Barak 8 launchers i don't see anything else.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yRk7TTn6Raw/U ... C_0134.JPG

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 14 Aug 2014 21:31

A 7500 tone ship with 32 SAM's is rather pathetic

. Talwars are more heavily armed than IN's latest destroyers.