Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Aug 2014 11:16

Oh boy.

Here we go.

Again.

This. Supersonic subs, earthquakes, release of a reporter by a terrorist grp, ......... All in one day.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 25 Aug 2014 12:35

JSF has run into a mess.

Either its design is flawed or the project management has been bungled.

An unbelievable amount of money has been poured into the project. It is now the most expensive military project in history having topped a trillion dollars.. and rising! They have no choice but to roll the production lines with that kind of money having gone into it. It may turn out to be their "Arjun" project.

It looks like it will be less capable than a late generation F-16 overall. The only thing it has going for it is stealth.

Singapore has decided to more than double its F-15 fleet to 40 planes. Is it because they feel the JSF won't live up to expectations or be delivered on time?

Somewhere in there is a lesson for India to learn.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Aug 2014 12:57

^^^^^

There is whole thread on this topic. Search for "Turkey". Cannot miss.

Lessons to be learnt, sure. But it has arrived. Not going anywhere. It will keep a few jurnos well paid too, and threads moving.

Imho, the best plane out there.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/03/why-sing ... -the-f-35/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Aug 2014 14:49

Russian-Indian air exercise "Aviaindra 2014" will start in Lipetsk
http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20140825/1 ... html[quote]

MOSCOW, Aug. 25 - RIA Novosti. Indian military arrived in Russia to participate in the joint exercise of the Air Force (IAF) "Aviaindra 2014", which will be held from August 25 to September 5, said on Monday a representative of the press service and information Russia's Defense Ministry on the Air Force Colonel Igor Klimov.

"From August 25 to September 5, 2014 under the leadership of Chief of the Air Force in the territory of the Russian Federation held a joint Russian-Indian doctrine" Aviaindra 2014. "Official start date of the exercise - August 29, 2014. Until that time, the Indian pilots in the Lipetsk aviation center will explore areas of future Flight to practice piloting skills on modern simulators and air defense specialists familiarize themselves with anti-aircraft missile systems in the training center of anti-aircraft missile troops in Gatchina, "- he said.

According to Klimov, the exercise scenario provides for joint Russian-Indian flight crews in the Su-30SM, Mi-35 and Mi-8 in landfills "Pogonovo" in the Voronezh region and "Ashuluk" in the Astrakhan region. Also, crews will be refueled in the air in the Su-30cm from the air tanker Il-78. In addition, the joint air defense calculations Ashuluk range to reflect the impact of conditional enemy combat missile launches S-400, S-300 air defense missile systems Buk-M1 and ZRPK "Pantsir-S1".[/quote]

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Aug 2014 14:51

Looks like we have sent the Pilots for the exercise but using Russian aircraft Su-30SM which is Russian version of Su-30MKI.

S-400 ,S-300 and BUK-M1 are also part of the exercise

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Aug 2014 17:47

Neshant wrote:JSF has run into a mess.

Either its design is flawed or the project management has been bungled.

An unbelievable amount of money has been poured into the project. It is now the most expensive military project in history having topped a trillion dollars.. and rising! They have no choice but to roll the production lines with that kind of money having gone into it. It may turn out to be their "Arjun" project.

It looks like it will be less capable than a late generation F-16 overall. The only thing it has going for it is stealth.

Singapore has decided to more than double its F-15 fleet to 40 planes. Is it because they feel the JSF won't live up to expectations or be delivered on time?

Somewhere in there is a lesson for India to learn.

I have replied in the JSF turkey thread.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Aug 2014 18:25

HAL would be the third largest producer of light military helicopters by 2020

You do understand that there is a difference between LIGHT MILITARY helicopters and ALL helicopters?

Airbus produces civilian aircraft like the Airbus 330. HAL currently doesn't.

So precisely what is the entire point of the statement that HAL will be ready to compete (overnight no less) once the Tejas is exported which isn't even a transport aircraft.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Aug 2014 19:22

Sorry Rahul.Will post news about ET elsewhere!

Read about the IN's "look east" aviation policy with the establishment of the first MIG-29K sqd. at INS Dega at Vizag.IN td.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Aug 2014 02:24

Rien wrote: The Harbin Z_19, much like our LCH is built out of imported EU components. Both helis are duplicates of the Eurocopter. In our case we have built a 100% duplicate without paying Eurocopter licensing fees. Similar story to the Tejas/Gripen.

Rien wrote: Both the Chinese and the LCH can fire the Mistral AAM. You are confusing the primitive Apache's limitations with that of our agile RCS and IR reduced platform. Seriously, our tech is on another planet from the USA's.

The Apache can't do this, because it has a huge RCS figure. It is also slow, and not capable of the acrobatics both our and the Chinese helis can pull off. The LCH has huge advantages in weight and RCS due to the extensive use of composites, instead of the metallic Apache. 2014 Maal vs 1975 Maal. 40 year difference.

Rien wrote: They only have 80 Harbins. HAL has done a good job on helicopters.The Chinese had to pay Eurocopter licensing fees for their Harbin, so we are 100% ahead on cost. We have a small edge in high altitude performance. Why I don't know?

I mean everything is the same. So either we have a more powerful engine, or more use of composites than the Chinese license produced Eurocopter Tiger. This is the only technical field we are ahead of the Chinese.

Rien wrote: Actually HAL is one of the world's biggest helicopter manufacturers. If we export Tejas, we could move overnight to becoming an aerospace competitor for Boeing, Airbus and Embraer.

MODERATOR TALK: Though quite amusing, I can't allow this to continue. You are on watch for trolling (on this thread and on others).

vic · Post by **vic** » 26 Aug 2014 02:29

JSF is suffering massive attack by Boeing Lobby.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Aug 2014 11:33

^ Instead BRF is seeing a relentless attack from jsf all over the threads, wherever I go jsf is there.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Aug 2014 14:28

DELETED.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Aug 2014 20:38

DELETED

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Aug 2014 21:35

From a non-flying turkey to a flying hippo .................. that is progress within this thread. However, that hippo was designed to bite.

Also, by the time all is said and done, I am sure, there will be plenty of new words that will be learnt. Based on what I have seen among the turkey group, I have seen real progress. Very encouraging.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 28 Aug 2014 16:11

Hey Indranil,

In law, truth is a defence against libel. That's the case here. Without repeating myself or you

The Z-19 is an updated modified version of the Harbin Z-9W (similar to the development of Bell AH-1 Cobra from UH-1). It is a twin-seat tandem helicopter with a similar mechanical layout to the Eurocopter AS365 Dauphin series as the Z-9 series are licence-built versions of the Dauphin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Z-19

So I assume you are not questioning that Z-19 is a Eurocopter product? Onto the LCH.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 100805.htm

In its latest report, the CAG said, "90 per cent of the value of material used in each helicopter is still imported from foreign suppliers.

The engine is French(Turbomeca), and most of the other components are EU. Nexter gun, Mistral AAM etc. Satisfactory? Dhruv, LCH, and Rudra are all variants. Rudra has weapons, LCH has more weapons and a few other changes. In 2014 almost none of the components are desi. Eurocopter consultants were also involved in the design. Whether Chinese or Indian the EU was heavily involved in the design and components.

As regards to the Apache.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache

First flight 30 September 1975

1975 vs 2012/13 for the LCH. 2010 for the Chinese Harbin.Both the Harbin and our helicopter can fly high. The Dhruv had to pass the test of flying into Siachen. There's a news report about it. The Apache can't fly that high with a useful load.

Both the Chinese and Indian maal are made of composites.

http://www.hal-india.com/cmddivision/aboutus.asp

Composite components for Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

The LCH, a derivative of Advanced Light Helicopter, is a dedicated attack helicopter built to meet the requirements of armed roles for operations. Major structural and dynamic parts are made out of advanced composite materials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_helicopter

Several helicopters, such as the HAL Light Combat Helicopter and Eurocopter Tiger, are said to feature presence-reduction measures or 'stealth'. The use of advanced composite materials on the airframe has commonly resulted in reductions in an aircraft's radar cross-section (RCS).[15] In the case of the Eurocopter Tiger, measures were taken to produce minimal visual, radar, infra-red and acoustic signatures to improve battlefield survivability.[16][17] HAL's Light Combat Helicopter is reported to feature a digital camouflage system.[18]

Stealth, air to air missiles, composites, high altitude performance. The list of advantages over the Apache is very long.
US origin posters do believe the Apache is the best. Neither the Discovery Channel nor Fox News are factual sources. In fact, some of those very same posters claim that stealth is the most important feature while promoting a helicopter that is the very antithesis of that idea. They see no contradiction in this stance. I didn't even get to cost and safety.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 28 Aug 2014 17:10

'rein baba' , aap bilkul sahi ho , chalo chalo , badhe logo ko tang nhe karte .. !!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Aug 2014 19:32

Rien wrote:Hey Indranil,
In law, truth is a defence against libel. That's the case here. Without repeating myself or you

In Bengali, there is a saying: "Olpo bidya bhoyonkori".

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 28 Aug 2014 20:27

indranilroy wrote:
Rien wrote:Hey Indranil,
In law, truth is a defence against libel. That's the case here. Without repeating myself or you
In Bengali, there is a saying: "Olpo bidya bhoyonkori".

if only forum members can ignore (like in 3 idiots )rein babas exclusive 'yellow lines' . even my last 3-4 posts were exclusively for him.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Aug 2014 11:12

Russo-Indian exercises Aviaindra-2014 begin in Russia on Friday

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Aug 2014 22:19

Russia, India to Continue Joint Air Force Drills in November - Moscow

LIPETSK, August 29 (RIA Novosti) - The second phase of joint Russian-Indian Air Force exercise “Aviaindra-2014” is set to take place in India in November, deputy chief of the Russian Air Force's General Staff, Aleksandr Lyapkin, told reporters Friday.

“The second phase of the exercise will take place in India after the end of monsoon season, on November 10-21. The location isn't known yet, this will become clear in October, when planning is finished,” Lyapkin said.

Russia is currently hosting the first ever Russian-Indian air force drills, which involve joint flights with mixed Russian-Indian crews on Su-30 SM “Flanker-C” aircraft and Mil Mi-35 “Hind E” helicopters. The Indian troops arrived in Russia on August 25.

The drills are taking place at the Pogonovo and Ashuluk testing ranges in Voronezh and Astrakhan regions. Flanker-C crews are to carry out air refueling training, while helicopter crews work on extinguishing fires and conducting search and rescue missions.

According to Indian Air Commodore Ajay Rathore, the Indian Air Force uses Su-30MKI, MiG-21, Mi-35 and other types of Russian-produced aircraft at home, with which they are satisfied.

“We have been using Russian military equipment for over 40 years, but this is the first time we conduct joint air drills, though we should have done it a long time ago. We have big hopes for this kind of pilot trainings. We would like to share our experience with our Russian colleagues and learn from their experiences using prospective aircrafts. I hope that ‘Aviaindra’ will be the first of many joint trainings,” Rathore said.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Aug 2014 00:01

Saras ready to take off again .

August 19, 2014: India's first indigenous civilian aircraft, the 14-seater push-prop SARAS could get back into the air any day now. After a five-year grounding following a devastating March 2009 crash that killed its there-man IAF test crew, the National Aerospace Laboratory, in coordination with the IAF's Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) are undersood to be confident of a first flight before Diwali this year. As reported earlier by SP's, the ASTE had begun ground trials of the modified PT1N platform around December last year, and has undergone a rigorous routine of ground handling, turning and taxi trials, including static systems trials. Former NAL chief and aerospace guru Prof. Roddam Narasimha recently spoke out about the various programmes, and said that the proposed the Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) could spearhead a much needed new wave in Indian capabilities alongside the Saras. "It should be a turbo-prop aircraft, executed in a public-Private Partnership (PPP) mode, preferably as part of a global consortium, and should be viewed as a common “civil-military” platform that would also address the transport aircraft needs of the Indian Air Force in terms of the Avro and AN-32 replacements, thus generating the numbers and associated economic viability needed to make it successful," he said.

P.S. Please disregard those pictures. They are from HSTT in 2004.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 31 Aug 2014 18:56

Book paints the stories of Indian fighter pilots from 1971 war

New Delhi, Aug 31: The heroism, gallantry, flying skills and unmovable determination displayed by Indian fighter pilots during the 1971 liberation war of Bangladesh is the subject of a new book.

Recounted in third person by Dhirendra S Jafa, Wing Commander (Retd.) Indian Air Force, “Death Wasn’t Painful”, brought by Sage books, salutes the sacrifices made by these fighter pilots, many of whom were taken prisoners of war (POW) and spent months in Pakistani prisons before returning to India.

Jafa, who himself took part in countless bombing missions in erstwhile West Pakistan, was taken a prisoner of war following the crash of his SU-7 fighter bomber aircraft near North Lahore and was awarded Vir Chakra for the unparalleled bravery displayed in the battlefield.

He was lodged in the POW camp of the Pakistani Air Force at Rawalpindi, alongwith 11 other Indian fighter pilots, all of whom had their own stories of capture, beatings, torture and injuries to tell.

The book, thus, is the tale of these 12 fighter pilots in enemy captivity- their deprivations, their longings for home and families, their interactions with Pakistani military officers and civilians is recounted.

It also recounts their not so latent pride in being Indians and representatives of a victorious nation, their indomitable spirit of freedom and their everyday struggles with boredom and loss of hope, while waiting behind bars in the country they had just defeated in the war.

While depicting the intrepid life of fighter pilots in actual combat, the book also has an introspective side where it portrays the subtle and human reactions of soldiers when faced with the harsh realties of war- injuries, death, broken families, alienation and grief.

The experiences of POWs are finely drawn. A fighter pilot’s life in actual combat, where death is but a glorious martyrdom, is juxtaposed with the tepid, monotonous and uninspiring life of prison, where brave, fearless soldiers ponder over the inevitability and futility of war.

In between these rather philosophical, often gloomy monologues on the pros and cons of war, there are personalised stories of individual valour and determination shown by Indian soldiers.

Jaffa and his compatriot’s ability to find humour, in most unlikely situations is an added advantage, like the story of Flight Lieutenant Jawahar Lal Bhargava, “the ever-smiling, every-ready-with-advice, HF-24 pilot, who had after his capture by villagers in a remote area in Sindh, successfully enjoyed their hospitality by carrying on as a downed Pakistani Pilot”.

Or the immediate reaction of Flight Lieutenant Harish Sinhji after the news of his release to India finally reached him: “Looks like our countries have decided to play poker with prisoners of war.”

Then there are the inspiring stories of Flight Lieutenant S S Malhotra, who was awarded Vir Chakra for downing a Mig-19 over Pakistan’s strongest Air-Base station Sargodha, and the story of Kala Sandhu, who was instructed by his peasant father either to win recognition for his bravery in battlefield or achieve martyrdom.

In the chapter, ‘The Breakout’, Jafa recounts the story of Flight Lieutenant Dilip Parulkar, Harish Sinhji and Melvinder Singh Grewal, who made an epic escape from the Pakistani prison, following on the foot-trails of J Murray’s “A handbook for travellers in India, Burma, and Ceylon”, published in 1906, but were recaptured just five miles short of Afghanistan.

The chapter, ‘The Great Homecoming’ recounts the doubts, and dilemmas of these POWs and their frustrations with the Indian leadership for leaving the question of Kashmir open, despite comprehensively defeating Pakistan.

“The Long, purposeless incarceration in enemy jail. Feelings of abandonment and neglect by our own countrymen. Long hours to think and debate. Monologues, discussions and arguments.

“Anger and frustrations at having to fight over the same issue (Kashmir) again and again. Then seeing the gains frittered away, again and again. At such cost, at such sacrifice of life and limb. Nothing to show in the end. No lasting gain for the country. No lasting honour for the fighting man.

“All this interspersed with peace. Peace worse than war,” writes Jaffa, feeling betrayed that the gains made in the battlefield on the back of soldiers lives were ceded to Pakistan during diplomatic talks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Sep 2014 09:45

Pilatus Signs PC-7 Offset Deal in India

As part of its offset agreement related to a purchase by India’s air force, Pilatus Aircraft has signed a 10-year contract with Tata Advanced Systems (TASL) for the Indian company to supply aerostructures for the PC-12 NG utility turboprop single. Tata will replace existing supplier PZL-Swidnik of Poland. This is India’s first major private partnership, and results from the 30-percent offset obligation (worth about $165 million) that Pilatus incurred in its sale of 75 PC-7 Mk II trainers and associated systems to the Indian Air Force (IAF). The PC-7 contract also requires Pilatus to cooperate with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in creating a depot-level maintenance facility for the aircraft.

TASL will produce PC-12 wings, fuselages, ailerons and flaps at its existing facility in Hyderabad. The first ship sets are scheduled for delivery in the second quarter of 2016.

Since induction of the first PC-7 Mk II early last year, “the IAF has achieved more than 15,000 flying hours and accumulated more than 27,000 landings,” Markus Bucher, CEO of Pilatus, told AIN. Already, 45 of the 75 have been delivered. The final delivery will be made by the mifddle of next year. The order, worth approximately $497 million, was signed in 2012 after HAL failed to deliver its Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40) to replace the IAF’s obsolete piston-engine HAL HPT-32s.

A request for information (RFI) for an additional 106 basic trainers has been released. A source told AIN that Pilatus is the front-runner to supply more PC-7 Mk IIs, since the IAF has expressed satisfaction with the aircraft.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Sep 2014 22:35

Avia Indra 2014

http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs3/14 ... D0%B0-2014

Added Later: More Pics

http://photos.lifeisphoto.ru/162/3/1624205.jpg
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Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 01 Sep 2014 23:33

Link

The Indian Navy's ability to carry out amphibious landing, casualty evacuation, humanitarian assistance and long-range surveillance and reconnaissance received a major boost today, with Japan agreeing to sell and transfer technology to India to build the specialised sea-plane, the US-2 produced by ShinMaywa
.....
In keeping with the Modi government's policy, these planes will be made in India.
....

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Sep 2014 05:01

Misraji wrote:Link
The Indian Navy's ability to carry out amphibious landing, casualty evacuation, humanitarian assistance and long-range surveillance and reconnaissance received a major boost today, with Japan agreeing to sell and transfer technology to India to build the specialised sea-plane, the US-2 produced by ShinMaywa
.....
In keeping with the Modi government's policy, these planes will be made in India.
....

As per that article, the IN has requirements for only 15 planes. There would need to be more planes to justify "made in India" infrastructure.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Sep 2014 05:19

There could be a hybrid FACO type of a set up.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Sep 2014 06:35

Setting up a facility to manufacture just 14 amphibs is simply ridiculous! Secondly,they are large amphibs and very expensive.What the nation,IN,CG,pvt. entities require is amphibs of various classes,sizes and range.Msny months ago,sometime last year,I gave details of an ingenious amphib version of the DO-228 de eloped in Oz,where a flotation device was attached to the underbelly of the fuselage.The DO-228 is manufactured in India,for aeons,and this could've been a very swift fast track development.This smaller amphib would've been ideal for the CG as well as IN for coastal.brown water requirements,plus also for tourist traffic to popular destinations like Goa,Cochin,the A&N islands,etc. The Maldives have dozens of amphib water taxis taking tourists to their unique atoll resorts.A pvt. entity in Cochin has started services just recently.This smaller size of amphib could also be used for commn. purposes by the services.Be-200 amphibs ,similar in size to the Japanese bird are also excellent for firefighting purposes apart from regular blue-water ops. and even passenger services. We have absolutely no aerial firefighting capability in the country and forest fires are regular occurrences,plus used for combating fires in high rise buildings as we saw recently in Bombay,where fire engines and their eqpt. cannot combat fires at such heights.

A maritime country such as ours with so many island territories,vast coastline and numerous water bodies ,esp. in mountain regions where there are few civil or military airstrips,desperately requires a variety of hundreds of amphibs for both military and civil purposes. For a start,the MOD must start production of the DO-228 amphib variant.It will cost us peanuts too!

nash · Post by **nash** » 02 Sep 2014 08:44

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 458837.cms

A much awaited agreement on India buying the US-2 amphibian aircraft was completed. A joint statement said both sides would work on building the US-2 in India "including transfer of the aircraft and its technology" to India

Sources said this would help both Japan and India to work together to even export the aircraft to third countries. For India, this would be the beginning of a defense aircraft industry here.

May be that is the reason of transferring or set up of production line of US-2 here in India.

what next, soryu ?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 02 Sep 2014 09:59

The language "including transfer of the aircraft and its technology" to include exports to 3rd countries sounds like a wholesale transplant of the US-2 project to India lock, stock and barrel. Japan only has 5 per wiki. But then maybe its just post sake DDM. Whatever it is, it sounds good.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 02 Sep 2014 11:58

A whoever said that a requirement of 15 is final. Follow on orders are the usual modus operandi in India.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 02 Sep 2014 12:02

Will it entail a cost advantage from a Japanese perspective? If yes, it will help pushing its sale northwards that will ultimately benefit the parent company as well.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Sep 2014 12:41

Japan operates a few of the older version: US-1.

4/5 US-2s will replace some of these older version.

India will be the largest operators of this newer version, for some time.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 03 Sep 2014 12:02

P Chitkara wrote:Will it entail a cost advantage from a Japanese perspective? If yes, it will help pushing its sale northwards that will ultimately benefit the parent company as well.

Yes. We are the cheapest major economy in the world, and are now operating more of this type of aircraft than the manufacturer itself! For sure we can make it cheaper.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... n_Navy.htm

With regard to offset obligations to be met as part of contractual obligations, Samaddar noted “The Indian aviation private sector doesn’t have enough capability and experience at the present moment in aircraft manufacturing. So we have to really partner with Indian industry to build the required capability, develop the right skill sets, imbibe highest quality and work ethics and provide mentoring to our IOP to become a world class company. Especially, for an aircraft as complicated as the US -2, it might take us a little while and the process has to be gradual but we are fully confident that if we have a chance we can help to transform the Indian aircraft industry just as Suzuki did to the automobile sector. We are also looking at maintenance, repair and overhaul for the aircraft in India, Foreign Direct Investment and sourcing from a large number of SMEs and in addition, we also have an extremely interesting plan towards creating an impact towards genuine capability building in the country in aeronautical engineering. Discussions are on with certain institutions regarding the same. Our plans are not ‘one off sale’ but we are completely committed to partner with India for a long term high-technology relationship.” He reiterated that offsets were not obligations but opportunities waiting to be explored.

Contrast this helpful attitude to the arrogant hostile Americans. At least Japan is willing to transfer technology, which is far more than could ever be said for the US. They won't transfer tech for something as low tech as Javelin. That says everything you need to know. Russia and Japan are the only countries willing to transfer tech. Important to keep track.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 03 Sep 2014 12:13

^^^^

Sorry but show me one system as advanced, portable and just as devastating as the Javelin currently operational any where else with a proven track record, secondly, for Javelin US is willing to share 97% of the tech, now looking at deliveries of US products so far i.e C-130J, C-17, P-8I are all on time, no service or quality issues so far and the US companies involved have been nothing but professional, there is a reason why MOD/IAF/IN and IA don't hestiate in ordering American if they see the products fits the needs.

One can go on and on about the service and poor after sales service we have with the Russians and with Japan, well its a new ally, no major defence sales yet so early to tell. TOT alone is not the deciding factor. Brahmos remains the only truly succesful Indo /Russian effort. The rest of the deals have some skeletons in closet anyone can easily dig up. Also, there is no sudden rush to buy American, rather a gradual shift which only shows growing confidence in US relations.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 03 Sep 2014 13:54

Air Force Chief Says $22 Billion French Fighter Rafale Jet Deal Almost Done

The air force chief has said the conclusion of a $22 billion fighter jet deal with French company Dassault Aviation is imminent after missed deadlines and delays.

Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha told a newspaper that the military cannot afford any more hold ups of the 2012 deal to supply 126 French-made Rafale fighters.

He aid a deadline for finalisation of the deal had not been set but added "it's going to happen soon."

He also appeared to throw cold water on attempts to re-enter the race for the giant contract by by a European consortium that makes the Eurofighter, a rival to the Rafale.

"It will not be appropriate to make any changes in the process," he said in an interview with the Hindustan Times published on Wednesday.

"The current government has set the pace of work and things are moving fast enough on the fighter deal."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Sep 2014 14:20

what does javelin bring to the table that Milan2T which we license make does not? a longer range and top attack capability are more useful in a mounted weapon ...... javelin is a cumbersome load to cart around and needs to the operator to sit in a padmasana post for some reason (stability I guess)

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 03 Sep 2014 15:08

the main advantage of javelin over milan is that it does not need constant illumination of target and soft launch capability.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 03 Sep 2014 16:34

True, Javelin can also be mounted on vehicles as done on Kestrel and in such cases and can kill targets over 4 km away. I don't recommend a massive Javelin buy rather an intial buy of around 9000 missiles and launchers to meet the immediate shortage and use the existing DRDO manpads based on Nag to work with US on co-dev to develope a 4th gen missile, the DRDO manpads is significantly lighter, combined with a joint dev in new gen seeker with US to optimize the design would turn the DRDO manpad the manpad for the next gen. This would also ensure Nag hits mass production and could be ordered by both India and US? (may be getting far ahead of myself but looking at Hellfires/ JAGM etc. they do have great expertise in missiles of this size and variety of warheads)

Problem with DRDO manpad is that by the time it is ready, trialed and introduced into production, it will take another 3-4 years and yet will take even longer for it to hit high production numbers for delivery. In the meantime Javelins can be delivered at good speed to fill in the shortage.

http://www.deagel.com/news/Javelin-Man- ... 11204.aspx

http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... mp_h15.jpg

Singhaji, launching the javelin can be done kneeling as well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Sep 2014 17:17

er with 9000 javelins and associated units, one can write the obituary of Nag right away.
esp as the basic Nag has about the same range albeit it carries a huge warhead vs the man portable javelin.

we need the concept of wheeled recce / light raider vehicles of the kestrel and fennec type armed with HMG, 30mm cannon and Nags to make Nag a success.

for some reason wheeled vehicles seems like a gaping hole in the IA. we have none barring the maruti gypsy. even the mahindra axe vs Tigr vs huffy vs tuffy went into the round white filing cabinet.