Artillery: News & Discussion

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Aug 2014 20:09

^DRDO has to do it, otherwise throughout the developing phase and even after development there'll be articles about how outdated the tech of DRDO gun will be by the time it comes. Just see how great knowledgeable people on rafale thread are saying how wrong it is to buy a jet which will be outdated by 2040: that is rafale only ahead of its time jsf b can be considered.

Now that M 777 has entered and got cancelled, continuosly article will be coming at how swedes or american are moving to railgun or howitzer made of adamantium.

Probably to offset all this DRDO has to do it!

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Aug 2014 22:08

^In that case they will continue to look and perform like Keystone Cops until they go out of business, which is going to happen as soon as a Kalyani or Tata gun is operational in the Army. Sorry, this boasting only makes them sound more ridiculous, if that is possible.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Aug 2014 22:18

Your silly baiting apart, fact is that a Tata or Kalyani gun will require their IP as well, given its they who have the lockdown on ballistic tech & vetronics in India.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Aug 2014 22:21

Surya wrote:as soon as DRDO promised an uber gun , X country to have it yada yada - my heart sank

“The 155MM/52 calibre is going to be one of the best artillery guns in the world in its category,” said Anil Datar, noted scientist and Director General (Armament and Combat Engineering Cluster)

Yea we heard these claims before - lay of the hyperboles and deliver something even if it is not the best - even better get out of this and focus on the areas where we need them to

We really need to have one of the pvt parties deliver these guns- In this day and age to rely on DPSUs for this is ridiculous

sigh towed, tracked and wheeled all remain a mirage

Depends. LRDE, DLRL, RCI etc made the same claim & have delivered. The import replacements coming in from all three, pretty much match whatever we got from the open market.
There is no reason why ARDE per se cannot replicate this, as long as it runs a tight ship and doesn't overreach. Its choice of private partners is a plus.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Aug 2014 22:23

rohitvats wrote:If the DRDO says that ATAGS is expected to enter service in 6 years time frame, then it is wise to add another 2-3 years to it. I thought the time to be taken was 3-years based on some interviews earlier.

Given the time period mentioned in the report, out goes my dream of standardized gun for Towed, Mounted, Tracked and Wheeled category.

I expect a non-DRDO gun to enter service in Mounted, Tracked and Wheeled Categories. And unless the GOI actually puts the foot down and gets IA to induct OFB 155/45 towed gun over next 6-8 years along with up-gradation of M-46 gun, you'll even see a towed gun from foreign manufacturer making way into IA with OFB gun inducted in only limited numbers.

Hope IA sees sense and orders one standard type across 2-3 segments + a local alternative for the long run. If one gun is chosen, then the losing bidder can work/build the rest of the production order. Tata & L&T competed for the Pinaka and that was the deal struck.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Aug 2014 22:54

agupta wrote:Aaah, yes. I think I now recall what/who you meant. There was no way the OFB was going to let anyone else - even other PSUs enter their turf ! That said, I think you might recall that had OFB kept to their promised timelines and delivered as they said - even accounting for significant overruns - at least ~ 200 (or was it <100) desi FH77xs would've gone into service; and then the more practical parts of IA acquisition could've kept a low-rate going over the entire decade, if nothing else... to expect them to completely give up on the T-6/T-5 rationalization quest would be unrealistic

Agupta ji, i think the entire program was downed by the import lobby at the time - or those who expected easy imports to solve the arty woes. Some in OFB would have doubtless gone along with it. After all, no matter who wins, OFB puts together the kits. But it did teach me to be skeptical of the media, especially those who now tout that this Bofors stuff was never before thought of and only now are we reverse engg etc. (when we actually had the license and paid for it)

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Aug 2014 22:59

South African DENEL is no longer Banned now. Artillery arena now heats up.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Aug 2014 23:03

Karan M wrote:Your silly baiting apart, fact is that a Tata or Kalyani gun will require their IP as well, given its they who have the lockdown on ballistic tech & vetronics in India.

One doesn't kick a dead horse, one buries them. OFB is a dead weight on Indian defence and people who try to shield them in spite of the unbelievable waste aren't doing India a favor. You may not agree but the Army does and that is all that counts in my book.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Aug 2014 23:32

Victor wrote:
Karan M wrote:Your silly baiting apart, fact is that a Tata or Kalyani gun will require their IP as well, given its they who have the lockdown on ballistic tech & vetronics in India.
One doesn't kick a dead horse, one buries them. OFB is a dead weight on Indian defence and people who try to shield them in spite of the unbelievable waste aren't doing India a favor. You may not agree but the Army does and that is all that counts in my book.

Before going off on a tangent, it helps to ask. I wasn't referring to OFB.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Aug 2014 12:58

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/i ... 332456.ece

Feeble fire in the big guns
Rahul Bedi

SHORTFALL: The critical howitzer shortage and obsolescence of existing platforms is possibly the worst of the Army’s innumerable deficiencies. Picture shows a Light Field Gun-105/37 MME-2 and Bofors gun
The Indian Army is facing a critical shortage of effective artillery firepower, crucial in a limited war scenario

The Indian Army is making incremental, but confused, progress in upgrading its depreciated artillery profile that has languished gravely since the import of Bofors howitzers in the late 1980s. It recently completed trials for two 155mm/52 caliber howitzer systems and is readying its report on the try-outs in Rajasthan last summer and in Sikkim in February, for presentation to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) by the year end.
Howitzer shortage

Depending on the trial reports of whether the howitzers have met the Army’s Qualitative Requirements (QRs), principally of reliably and consistently achieving a strike range of 42 kilometres, the vendors will be shortlisted or rejected. Ideally, thereafter the howitzer price bids submitted early last year ahead of field trials would be opened, cost negotiations launched and the procurement confirmed. But such a smooth and painless eventuality in India’s lugubrious MoD is still a long way off.

Competing for the 155mm/52 caliber towed gun system (TGS) are France’s Nexter, with its Trajan gun, specially modified for the Indian tender, and Israel’s Elbit fielding the ATHOS 2052 howitzer. India plans on acquiring 400 towed howitzers and building an additional 1,180 guns via a technology transfer to the state-run Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

Vying alongside, in support of the Army’s initial requirement for 100 self-propelled tracked (SPT) howitzers are South Korean Samsung-Techwin’s K-9 Thunder and an upgraded version of Russia’s MSTA-S SP gun modified to 155mm/52cal standards and mounted on a T72 main battle tank chassis.

All four competitors have technical agreements with local companies that are expected to extend beyond providing backup during trials, if any of the original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) are shortlisted for acquisition. While Nexter and Samsung are collaborating with Larsen & Toubro (L&T), Elbit has an arrangement with the Kalyani Group in Pune. Expectedly, the Russians are in a tie-up with the OFB.

The TGS howitzer trials were the fifth since 2001, plagued as they have been by a bewildering round of bureaucratic delays and frequent issuance, withdrawal and re-issuance of tenders by the MoD. The Army has further compromised the artillery programme by its muddled and, at times, over ambitious QRs that would indeed be comical if the operational ramifications of the howitzer shortages were not dire.

The latest round of howitzer trials is a long-deferred response to the Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan (FARP) formulated in 1999 that aims to import, locally develop and licence-build a mix of around 2,800-3,000 assorted guns to equip around 190-200 artillery regiments.

The ambitious Plan, possibly the world’s largest involving artillery systems, is estimated to cost $8-10 billion and is scheduled for completion by the end of the 14th Five-Year Finance Plan in 2027. Unfortunately, this is a deadline the Army and the MoD will most certainly overshoot.

The FARP envisages inducting a perplexing mix of 1,580 TGS, 814 mounted platforms and the outright purchase of 145 BAE Systems M777 155 mm/39-caliber ultra-light howitzers; that too is mired in unnecessary red tape and confusion. Also included is the outright purchase of 100 SPT howitzers and 180 self-propelled wheeled howitzers with another 120 to be built locally under a technology transfer agreement.

The critical howitzer shortage and obsolescence of existing platforms is possibly the worst of the Army’s innumerable deficiencies. These astonishingly include basic infantry weapons like carbines and assault rifles, night-fighting devices for the bulk of the Army’s 59 armour regiments, air defence equipment, light utility, attack and heavy lift helicopters, body armour and assorted ordnance, missiles and ammunition, among much else.

At present, the Army principally employs Soviet-era 105mm OFB-built Indian Field Guns and D-30 122mm field pieces, both with limited ranges of around 17 km that can be offset by long-range mortars. These are supplemented by Bofors 155mm/39 cal howitzers, now reduced to less than half their original number of 410 due to cannibalisation. Soviet M46 130mm guns upgraded to 155mm/45 cal by Soltam in the late 1990’s complete the Army’s circumscribed artillery profile.

Military planners concur that these assets are woefully inadequate to sustain the Army’s revised ‘manoeuvre by fire’ offensive capabilities and the newly formulated war-fighting Cold Start doctrine. Simply put, this envisages holding or static formations along India’s borders with Pakistan going on the offensive in a limited war scenario to achieve negotiable military gains in a nuclearised environment. Efficient and effective artillery firepower is crucial to this battlefield scenario.

Additional howitzers, especially the transportable M777s, are desperately needed to equip the proposed fourth artillery division for deployment along the 4,057-km-long unresolved Chinese border to support the two recently created mountain divisions in the northeast in addition to the 17 Mountain Strike Corps currently under raising in the same region. Meanwhile, there is a putative, albeit questionable, embarrassment of artillery riches domestically.

The OFB is currently conducting its final round of trials involving Dhanush, the Bofors FH-77B 155mm/45 cal towed howitzer prototypes it has constructed using blueprints it obtained in 1987 along with the 410 guns, but never used after the purchase became controversial. The trials became necessary after the barrel of one of its two prototypes built by the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) in Jabalpur burst last August during try-outs in Pokhran.
Acquisition of Dhanushs

The MoD has approved the acquisition of 144 Dhanushs with the possibility of procuring another 400-odd depending on their performance.

The outcome of the Defect Identification Inquiry ordered by the MoD into this mishap is unknown, but it is widely believed in military and industry circles that it remains inconclusive. Senior artillery officers, however, believe that inducting Dhanush is at best an interim measure as it is an outdated gun, but in the short term the best option for the Army to make good shortages.

Alongside, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has successfully fabricated the Catapult MKII self-propelled artillery system by mating the 130mm gun with the Arjun tank chassis. The Army recently conducted Catapault MKII user trials following which series production of 40 platforms is expected to imminently begin at the OFB’s Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi near Chennai to equip two regiments. These 40 platforms will replace an equal number of DRDO-developed Catapult MKIs fashioned in the early 1980s by mounting the M46 gun onto the lengthened chassis of the locally licence-built Vijayanta tank.

Simultaneously, private defence contractors like the Tatas, L&T and Bharat Forge are involved in locally upgrading M46 guns provided by the Army to 155mm/45 cal in addition to developing their own 155mm/52 howitzers in collaboration with overseas OEMs. Some are also collaborating with the DRDO’s Armament Research and Development Establishment in Pune to design a 155 mm/52-caliber Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) with a 50-km strike range by 2016.

Proposals are also afoot to privatise ordnance manufacture to meet shortages. The Army faces a shortfall of some 50,000 155 mm precision-guided munitions rounds, more than 21,200 bi-modular charge systems, and around one million electronic fuses which the OFB is incapable of fulfilling.

(Rahul Bedi writes on defence and security issues.)

From the report there is certainly much confusion .This must be laid at the door of the UPA maladministration,AKA in particular,who added another decade to the 16yr long wait by the IA for new guns.In fact Samuel Beckett the playright who wrote the classic play "Waiting for Godot" in 1948,would be delighted with this grand Indian defnce debacl, and the generals of the IA resembling Vladimir and Estragon,the two tramps endlessly waiting for "Godot".
At one point in the play,"with no carrots left, Vladimir offers Estragon the pointless choice between a turnip and a radish".That is the pathetic state with which the IA has been reduced to,choosing between the "turnip",desi version of decades old Bofors,Dhanush and the "radish",an ex-Soviet upgunned 130mm gun!

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 21 Aug 2014 22:25

Why are we entertaining Denel/Singapore and other import likes in news feed when Desi version through Kalyani/Tata and Dhanush are there on the table ? Do they offer significant performance, to depend on a foreign source for the largest order of artillery in this century?

If OFB can reverse engineer (when they actually had all the drawings ?) then I bet Tata/Kalyani can do a better and faster job on Dhanush cloning. We need to also limit testing time to six months. Best to split orders and ramp up numbers fast, export potential comes next. DRDO can work on next generation.

This overall lack of direction in policy from MoD is feeding drugs to import lobby.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2014 02:00

Philip, Good quote from "Waiting for Godot". Describes the UPA and AKA perfidy in disarming India and making sure there are limited options for retaliating against TSP terrorism. In effect AKA used the IA generals preference for the best to deny them what would work. So a classic example of how to make people ineffective by using their rigid beliefs.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Aug 2014 02:23

Ramana,tx.This is exactly what I was told 2 yrs. ago in Delhi,that undermining India's defence capability (to benefit Pak) was going on thanks to the UPA,MMS,AKA,etc.,at the behest of their firang master whom we all know too well.The delay in finalising the Rafale deal is also attributed to them.That deal too is now beginning to resembles the arty one if given time! But Jet Li one hopes will act decisively .

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 28 Aug 2014 20:07

Saurav Jha: Turning to tube artillery, what is the status of the Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS) programme?

Avinash Chander: ATAGS programme is going strong. We expect the barrel firing to be done by the end of this year. The programme is on schedule.

Saurav Jha: Will it be available for trials by 2017-18?

Avinash Chander: Yes the entire gun should be available for trials by 2017-18. 2017 in fact.

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... rt-ii.html

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Aug 2014 09:59

You can easily add 12 months to the end of the year test firing of the gun barrel. Still, it is a good news, that domestic efforts are on going.

I will pray that the firsts new guns using this tech enter service before the end of the decade and over the next 10 years the arty is rationalized. As was planned, for the field arty rationalization plan.

Or if a new plane is devised for the Arty, they that plan is executed.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 29 Aug 2014 10:44

hecky wrote:
Saurav Jha: Turning to tube artillery, what is the status of the Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS) programme?

Avinash Chander: ATAGS programme is going strong. We expect the barrel firing to be done by the end of this year. The programme is on schedule.

Saurav Jha: Will it be available for trials by 2017-18?

Avinash Chander: Yes the entire gun should be available for trials by 2017-18. 2017 in fact.
http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... rt-ii.html

Any and all dates given out by DRDO is bogus to be taken with a bag of salt

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 29 Aug 2014 21:51

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 02 Sep 2014 22:52

Karan M wrote:Vaibhav, all the low risk stuff was tried in the early 2000s by OFB, DRDO, PSUs together. Army sunk it saying it would be obsolete in 21st century. DRDO has deliberately gone for a futuristic design based on harsh prior experience with Arjun, towed AD project, ammo programs etc, where meeting "current needs" is not enough & additional ones are added later on, making the whole earlier design moot (you can upgrade the earlier design only so much; Arjun morphed into 60t beast from Vijayanta derivative, towed AD gun was dropped, FSAPDS only restarted after IMI failure).

If earlier design is not continued and follow on launched, CAG then jumps in & breathes fire saying the early program was a waste & public money was squandered etc etc. (SV2000, Counter mine flail, etc)

Right now, the low risk option exists in the form of the FH77 follow on by the OFB. This was finally cleared by IA after it realized all its hopes of quick purchase and induction of state of art imports were going nowhere.

Even so, what the Army makes of low risk FH77 is very clear, only some 400 are planned to be acquired. Clearly, a program built on the basis of "extending" the FH77 design alone will not work and nor is IA interested in it.

Karan, I Agree.

We can only speculate on why the Arty Dte thinks the Dhanush is obsolete. If 45 calibre is a sore point that can surely be built upon. I really don't know what the DRDO gun can possibly provide in incremental capabilities. OFB claims to have bought and crammed most of the stuff with a current C2 systems, Velocity Radar, Automated Laying/Positioning Systems. IMO, the benefits of waiting for a DRDO gun till 2020 or whenever are marginal at best.

Optimistically, 400 guns will take the OFB atleast a decade to deliver, they can easily have the 52 Caliber variant built up on the same platform.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 02 Sep 2014 23:06

vaibhav.n wrote:We can only speculate on why the Arty Dte thinks the Dhanush is obsolete. If 45 calibre is a sore point that can surely be built upon.

The best has become the enemy of the good, that's all. These dudes have never heard "A good bird in hand is better than the best bird in the bush."

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 03 Sep 2014 06:28

SBajwa wrote:

Why so much time-energy spent in Kadam-Taal and rituals? Shouldn't the practice in loading up and firing as many rounds as possible?

member_28526 · Post by **member_28526** » 03 Sep 2014 06:51

I'm sure there were foreign dignitaries and military experts witnessing the show, not forgetting the media. All this hopping around is comical and hurts to watch. They should have just done the exhibition in real time mode.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Sep 2014 07:16

the people passing comments on guns as obsolete do not have to fight gun-less on the china border.
their kids are safely in the west.
they themselves are safe someplace like delhi.
why should they care about being realistic?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 03 Sep 2014 09:02

I have a good feeling about current Army leadership, especially Gen. Suhag. His fitness level says a lot about his attitude of staying fighting fit - someone who will see through this insanity of been under equipped because of import fascination.

Arms and feet follow the head - we elected imported rajababus (congress italian team) in to power then why single out armed forces for been importistas? We all were Importistas in a way.

srin · Post by **srin** » 03 Sep 2014 10:40

Dhananjay wrote:
SBajwa wrote:
Why so much time-energy spent in Kadam-Taal and rituals? Shouldn't the practice in loading up and firing as many rounds as possible?

Relax, that is just for show. The co-ordination is impressive though - that is what they are demonstrating.

If you see videos of artillery fire during Kargil, none of this is present.

Probably the presence of civvies - take a look at the F-22 demo and see how much is wasted walking back and forth - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-qji9DWOu0.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 03 Sep 2014 13:13

there is a 105mm Indian field gun being designed with soft recoil technology mounted on tata 2.5ton 4x4 vehicle by IA (EME) with pvt indian company as per publicly available info

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 03 Sep 2014 17:48

d_berwal wrote:there is a 105mm Indian field gun being designed with soft recoil technology mounted on tata 2.5ton 4x4 vehicle by IA (EME) with pvt indian company as per publicly available info

Interesting. Will be an almost go anywhere vehicle depending on the weight.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Sep 2014 18:20

is this the one - its by kalyani group (bharat - forge)
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... 14_002.jpg

I am not sure to what extent IA is involved or has expressed interest. they seem to want only 155mm blond gori mem not the dusky smaller desi bahu.
that too 6' tall mem in the form of 52cal weapons. who knows someone might read a naval brochure and demand 55cal as well. plus 85 rds / min like the Oto 76mm.

this truck thing sounds useful as organic fire support in the hands of infantry and mech units apart from the usual artillery brigades and divisions.
the BSF should also be given this in ample numbers.

vina · Post by **vina** » 03 Sep 2014 20:40

Singha wrote:is this the one - its by kalyani group (bharat - forge)
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... 14_002.jpg

I am not sure to what extent IA is involved or has expressed interest. they seem to want only 155mm blond gori mem not the dusky smaller desi bahu.
that too 6' tall mem in the form of 52cal weapons. who knows someone might read a naval brochure and demand 55cal as well. plus 85 rds / min like the Oto 76mm.

this truck thing sounds useful as organic fire support in the hands of infantry and mech units apart from the usual artillery brigades and divisions.
the BSF should also be given this in ample numbers.

Ah, but Bharat Forge /Kalyani has picked up the uber Tuetonic Austrian Gori , in the form of Voest Alpine's Artillery line (Noricum) and shipped it to India, lock stock and barrel! Voest Alpine are the guys who came up with a variant of Gerald Bull's gun as GHN-45 , and spawned the Soltam and Denel versions which are always in contention for the IA 155mm artillery requirements.

Now that the Austrian Gori has become a dish ki bahu, does she become a ghar ki murgi as well and hence daal baraabar?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Sep 2014 04:38

Auto components leader Bharat Forge turns focus to defence technology.

Flashback to 1999, and the Kargil war. The military is forced to abort missions due to heavy casualties. Then it decides to deploy the controversial Bofors gun to destroy Pakistani outposts from various vantage points. The strategy pays off, but the military realises it will soon run out of ammunition to feed the howitzers.

At the urging of army commanders, the defence ministry turns to Baba Kalyani and his company Bharat Forgeto make shells for its Bofors 155mm howitzer Kalyani, chairman of the Bharat Forge Group, recalls how the company got the "emergency order" to make 1 lakh shells. That's how the company's ability to turn out high-quality products at short notice, which helped burnish its global reputation in the auto parts industry, came to play a role in history.

More than a decade since then, the group led by flagship Bharat Forge is ready with artillery equipment that the Indian defence forces will soon start testing. This puts it nicely in placeto take advantage of the Narendra Modi government's initiative to encourage greater private participation in the defence sector.

"A lot of emphasis on local manufacturing of defence products has been put by the current government. Thus, companies like us, who've taken defence seriously, are now production-ready," Kalyani told ET in an exclusive interview.

The government has also opened up the sector to more overseas investments to persuade foreign companies to transfer technology to Indian firms. To those who would question the competence of a forging company entering the high-tech defence space, Kalyani said manufacturers such as Bharat Forge are especially well-qualified to do so.

"Companies like us from basic industries such as metallurgy and forging are the ones that are engaged in defence worldwide," he reasoned. For its artillery equipment venture, the Indian company has a joint venture with Elbit Systems, an Israeli defence equipment maker. The venture will initially work on the 155mm howitzer modernisation programme.

Bharat Forge has also built a howitzer from scratch that Kalyani says has far greater firepower than even the Bofors gun that's currently in use. "Our artillery gun would be better than Bofors," he asserted. "On the operational parameter, it is better in terms that it can move at 25 km an hour on its own, and the gun would take 52 calibre rounds compared with the 39 calibre of Bofors. It would have 'steer by wire', which the Bofors guns do not possess," he said.

By late September or early October, the Indian Army will start testing Bharat Forge's artillery equipment. An ultra light gun will be ready for testing by late September while trials of the 155mm artillery gun will start by December. A 155mm ultra light gun will be ready for testing by the middle of next year. (2 different ultra light guns?)

The company is also actively scouting for opportunities in the small arms space, although the government is yet to give permission to private companies to manufacture such weapons. Bharat Forge decided to diversify away from the automobile sector after the global economic turmoil hit in 2008 and plant capacity had to be idled.

"We did a couple of things. We tightened costs and adopted lean manufacturing processes. We invested heavily in R&D to develop new products" to mitigate the effects of the slump. But "when the Indian economy got battered, we too got battered in the process". This forced the company to look at sectors it could enter by leveraging its metallurgical and forging prowess. Components for the shale gas fracking, aerospace, offshore oil & gas exploration and defence industries were shortlisted.

While bets on offshore oil & gas and shale gas have paid rich dividends thanks to orders from US companies, components for aerospace equipment will need more time to develop and test. The company will focus on India for its defence equipment strategy over the next decade.

"Unless we are recognised in the domestic market, who will acknowledge us abroad?" Kalyani asked. The defence market is a potentially massive one. India's defence imports are currently worth about $20 billion a year While bets on offshore oil & gas and shale gas have paid rich dividends thanks to orders from US companies, components for aerospace equipment will need more time to develop and test. The company will focus on India for its defence equipment strategy over the next decade.

Along with the offset clause, any other mandatory local manufacturing requirements would be a very big opportunity for Indian companies. An offset clause relates to the local-manufacturing pledge an overseas company needs to make in return for orders. Kapil Singh and Nishit Jalan of Nomura didn't put a number to the defence opportunity in a July 30 research report.

"With the focus of the Indian government on local sourcing and hike in FDI in defence to 49 per cent, the revenue opportunity for the company would be very large but difficult to build in our earnings estimates," they said.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Sep 2014 07:06

It would be most wonderful development if the BF gun passes muster with the army. They can deliver the required product in a time bound manner and with right QC. Also, will stay invested in these systems to come with iterative development.

As for light guns, I think they're talking about mounted 105mm with soft recoil and light 155/39 which they were developing.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 11 Sep 2014 07:15

^One ultralight gun is 105 mm and the other is 155 mm. Both were featured in defexpo, but only 105 mm was an actual working specimen (on a humvee I think), the other one was just a poster.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2014 07:58

that hummer type vehicle would also be useful as a base for a 120mm mobile mortar methinks for COIN ops or general infantry.
the russians have one on a tracked vehicle and so do the germans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qln3hVoe8qA
swedes have doubled the fun with a two barrel bandook https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJiLHhCqt7I

we need something cheap and produced like MMX phones like the Elbit SPEAR...until such time as the desi FICV comes online
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OrlIIiZJJk

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 11 Sep 2014 08:24

Bharat Forge is one of the major suppliers to US auto and oil industries. It is closing in on surpassing ThyssenKrupp, the legendary German gunmaker and auto components supplier in the world market. We can expect great things from this company under the BJP watch. I have to believe that howitzers are just the beginning for them, the next in line being small arms followed by armored cars and tanks. Like their forgings, these will probably be aimed at exports in addition to domestic supply.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 11 Sep 2014 08:33

merlin wrote:
d_berwal wrote:there is a 105mm Indian field gun being designed with soft recoil technology mounted on tata 2.5ton 4x4 vehicle by IA (EME) with pvt indian company as per publicly available info
Interesting. Will be an almost go anywhere vehicle depending on the weight.

This is it:

Kalyani has tied up with Mandus Corp of Rock Island, IL.

LakshO · Post by **LakshO** » 11 Sep 2014 08:42

Great news if artillery guns from BF/Tata can make the grade!

Numbers wise, any idea what is the requirement of IA for these guns? Is 1500 a good ballpark estimation? If BF/Tata can deliver 4 per week, that would be 200 per year. In 7-8 years, the entire order can be fulfilled. I hope BF/Tata also make artillery shells too; no point in importing shells when in conflict.

I can only see upside if BF/Tata can win this. IA gets a good gun (after a looong time), pvt sector gets a toe hold in defence acquisitions, jobs for Indians, no imports, no sanctions, save forex, exports, BF/Tata can make the next version of IA requirements etc. Any downside to BF/Tatas proving their mettle? Will the import lobby allow this to go through?

I can't wait to know the results of IA's testing BF hardware in October.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 11 Sep 2014 09:45

The testing cycle for BF guns should be short as it's an imported design - made in India. It will be cheaper as expect to be 100% indigenous from the start - right to the raw material stage (unless some surprises show up). Import lobby influence will be seen if trials take any longer than six months.

Summer-Winter-Monsoon trials can be simulated by airlifting the gun to India's Ladakh-Thar desert and North-East states. Hoping they make three guns and do everything in parallel (taking some risk).

Bigger question is how does the Govt justify ordering these guns when they have a PSU baby which makes the infamous Bofors? It's like walking in to a mine zone unless defense PSU are privatized (like HAL).

Overall Bharat Forge's initiative is laudable. They clearly saw that most artillery guns are quite similar - basically a commodity product. Buying a full line followed by local manufacture is much much cheaper than Import lobby(aka first family)-MOD billion $$$ import tamashas. More important is continuing the evolution - which is where PSU under MOD bureaucracy have failed (guess it cuts off import $ siphons).

Indian army is going through a rebirth period, out with import and in with desi gear >> A real INDIAN Army is emerging finally. It's going to be painful but expect great outcome if Congress stays out of power.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2014 09:59

its time to leverage the scale of our CV and auto parts industry rather than relying on dated OFB production lines that barely turn in enough output. everyone of any consequence has done that - germany, japan, soko, america....Dhanush should be ordered in bulk and two production lines established to deliver quickly..one in private hands.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 11 Sep 2014 10:46

@nik

The testing cycle for BF guns should be short as it's an imported design - made in India. It will be cheaper as expect to be 100% indigenous from the start - right to the raw material stage (unless some surprises show up). Import lobby influence will be seen if trials take any longer than six months.

Summer-Winter-Monsoon trials can be simulated by airlifting the gun to India's Ladakh-Thar desert and North-East states. Hoping they make three guns and do everything in parallel (taking some risk).

Interesting point here boss. Me thinks both the IA and IAF need to increase the manning in these evaluation teams and organise their procurement teams to handle simultaneous testing and quicker procurement cycles. These teams need to shape up like the Naval teams for better and quicker induction. Also the IA needs to identify key private vendors with whom they embed their people to take developments further and not come in at only the evaluation stage. There are just so many programmes under testing and evaluation that it takes forever to get them tested.

The private sector will not have the luxury of OFB's for sloth paced testing and evaluation. So these would be important little steps in greater Indian-isation of military wares.

Another route could be a joint tri service group with DRDO, where they track all defense sector related work in Private Sector or DPSU's for involvement from the initial stages in developing relevant platforms within the mil-ind complex.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2014 11:02

clearly the hawk eye of namo needs to fall on OFB and their top officials invited for a baithak manch. pity their offices are not in new delhi else namo could have arranged a special extention to his office to house them and monitor progress.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 11 Sep 2014 16:22