Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct 2014

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 12 Oct 2014 10:29

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 74390.aspx

Less than a month ago, BSF jawans could not fathom why they were greeted by a burst of fire from Pakistan at the International Border (IB) when all they were doing was planting a mango sampling well within Indian territory. The post commander sought a flag meeting.

At the meeting, the Pakistani Rangers objected to the tree planting. The BSF company commander relayed the objection to his boss and the message went all the way up to inspector general Rakesh Sharma, who ordered the Indian forces to stop the planting exercise.

A few days later, Indian jawans responded with a burst of fire and this time the Rangers wanted to know why.

“We asked them, have you eaten roti today? Have you done your ablutions?” says Sharma. “The message went home. We told them whether you piss or not is your problem, because you are doing that in your own territory.”

Flag meeting records perused by Hindustan Times are comical and border on the nonsensical.

They would make for a perfect cartoon strip if they weren’t also tragic, because tension on the international border often results in casualties on both sides.

At one such flag meeting last year — after a BSF jawan fell from an observation post after being hit by a bullet — Pakistani Rangers told their Indian counterparts that he had perhaps committed suicide.

Aghast, the BSF commander said, “We have the bullet. India doesn’t use this ammunition.’’

The reply from the Rangers was, “You have terrorists in Jammu & Kashmir. We have no terrorists in Pakistan. May be he was targeted by a terrorist.’’

The BSF commander retreated and pondered over the futility of flag meetings.

“It really hurt when they said they have no terrorists when they are the ones training them and sending them to India,” a BSF officer said.

The BSF had a lot to cheer about in the current flare-up at the IB, when they got instructions from the Narendra Modi government not to seek a flag meeting.

The stand-off has instead been marked by a response that has left the Pakistani Rangers wondering.

“They probably thought we would seek a truce again, but the orders were clear and we hit them hard. I hope they have understood that if they mind their business, we will mind ours,’’ said Sharma.

The no-flag-meeting directive came after a quick data analysis.

The current flare-up, in which the entire 192 km stretch of the IB was affected, came soon after India had sought 18 flag meetings during the ceasefire violation in July and August that lasted 42 days.

Indian jawans kept standing at the border holding flags but got no response from Pakistan.

“We hope the no-flag-meeting policy stays,” a BSF official said.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Oct 2014 11:06

CRS, I believe that we have to recognize two different things. One is the deliberate attempts by some Western governments to use TSP as a prop against India for their own geostrategic & geopolitical reasons. The other is a mindset where the two nations are perceived as equals, the talk of one being the mirror image of the other. If one is Muslim then the other is Hindu. If one has Muslim extremists and terrorists, then the other *MUST* have similarly Hindu extremists and terrorists. Both are fighting for (Muslim) territory. They both attack each other in international fora like the UN etc. It is impossible to change both these. These are the impressions that one normally finds among those minuscule Western Joe who have some knowledge about the Indian subcontinent. Both these things will remain so long as Pakistan remains. Once Pakistan disappears, there cannot be any equal-equal or prop.

Pakistan was setup for several reasons. One was the belief that India would not remain united for long and dismember. The other was a need for a pliable state for several reasons, from being a refuelling point for flights to Australia from Europe to exercising leverage over the Mussalman states of West Asia and to safeguard the oil wealth etc. Pakistan assumed other roles later on, from being a bulwark against Communism, being a mediator between the US and China, to keeping an eye on Iran to helping the US 'defeat' USSR etc. This is how it has sustained itself. It will find other roles in the future to sustain itself. Hence, it is in our interests to remove this entity. Nothing short of it will work. Time for the 'final solution' has arrived.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 12 Oct 2014 11:18

A_Gupta wrote:Pak-India flag meeting on Tuesday
http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-16226 ... [quote]RAW AL PINDI: Flag meeting between Pakistan and Indian armies will be held on Tuesday in the backdrop of tension as a result of cross border shelling at the Line of Control (LoC) and Working Boundary....

Does any Indian source confirm this?[/quote] Pakees have asked for a flag meeting, BSF sources have not responded yet... Pakee foreign office has announced it as a foregone conclusion..trying to force our hand. Oct 15th is election in Maharashtra and Haryana, nothing will happen before that.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Oct 2014 12:34

Anujan wrote:This is from Longwar Journal and is interesting

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... good_1.php

The US reportedly killed a senior leader in the newly formed al Qaeda in the Indian Subcontinent as well as a Taliban commander who serves under Hafiz Gul Bahadar in a pair of drone strikes today in Pakistan's tribal agencies of Khyber and North Waziristan.

We have to go someway back to understand this phenomenon of why the US is attacking Gul Bahadur. We go to December 2012 when Maulvi Nazeer was eliminated in a drone attack. Maulvi Nazeer ofSouthern Waziristan was comrade-in-arms with Gul Bahadur of North Waziristan. Both were sarkari Taliban and both were opposed to Hakimullah Mehsud.

As in that case, this is also a combined attack by the TSPA and the CIA. Gul Bahadur should count his days now. I am posting the following from my December 2012 post which I think still stands.

Though Maulvi Nazeer (of SWA) and Gul Bahadur (of NWA) have indeed been having an uncomfortable co-existence with the Mehsuds as part of TTP, they all owe allegiance to Mullah Omar. Of course, TSPA could have easily taken out Maulvi Nazeer but they would have lost the Waziri support in South Waziristan where they have already lost the Mehsud support. That would have meant SWA would have become out of bounds for the TSPA and they have a large contingent present there bottled up in fort-like garrisons scattered all over the place. Their lives & limbs would be in grave danger if the Waziris & Mehsuds decide to bury their enmity (even if only temporarily) for fighting a common enemy, the TSPA.

Another reason why TSPA could not have finished off Maulvi Nazeer is that he was very close personally to Mullah Omar. TSPA cannot afford to antagonize Mullah Omar. So, what better way to get rid of him than asking the 'born-again tight buddy' to do so on their behalf and pretend as though they were upset and ask American buddies to mouth lies ?

Why was the TSPA interested in taking out Maulvi Nazeer ? We can only hazard a guess. He should have been a stumbling block in resuming dialogue with the TTP and TSPA might have concluded that his elimination was the only way. Maulvi Nazeer had everything to lose if GoP/TSPA recognized Hakimullah Mehsud as TTP leader and have peace deal with him. Maulvi Nazeer might have also threatened the TSPA with spilling the beans, of which he might have some. All the news reports of TTP's peace offer emerged only after Maulvi Nazeer was seriously injured in a suicide attack on him a couple of weeks earlier. When the suicide attack failed to eliminate him, he was taken out with a drone immediately thereafter. Soon, all kinds of stakeholders within Pakistan have been speaking of the peace dialogue with the TTP.

Within the TTP, there are two groups. One, under the control of Hakimullah Mehsud and the other under the combined control of Maulvi Nazeer and Gul Bahadur. The former are stronger in terms of numbers and geographical spread while the latter are confined to just the Waziristans. The Mehsuds have accommodated the Uzbeks among them after they fled from Afghanistan and the particularly vicious Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) is close to Hakimullah Mehsud. Besides, the Punjabi Taliban (a loose term that includes many Punjab-based terror tanzeems of the Deobandi/Salafi/Wahhabi/Takfiri dispensation) are also with Hakimullah Mehsud. There are some pointers here from Col. Imam's capture and assassination two years back. At that time, it was the Hakimullah Mehsud's group that held him captive and eventually an unheard of Punjabi group claimed to have killed him for being a US spy. Maulvi Nazeer vowed to take revenge for this proving close connections between him, Col Imam and the TSPA. In fact, Hamid Gul was also furious and predicted bad times for Hakimullah Mehsud for Col. Imam's death. The Punjabi Taliban are aligned with Hakimullah's group. Qari Saifullah Akhtar, Amir of HuJI and the original Punjabi Taliban, fled to South Wairistan after 9/11. Ilyas Kashmiri, who was initially the head of HuJI's Kashmiri chapter who later became Al Qaeda's operational commander, was eventually kiiled in South Waziristan. In this milieu, Maulvi Nazeer was not a significant partner though he was close to Mullah Omar, participated in Afghan operations by lending foot soldiers and was friendly to TSPA.

Because of the strength of the Hakimullah Mehsud faction,it is reasonable to assume that the TSPA has decided it is better to have an understanding with them and eliminate anyone opposed to that. This is in view of the developments in Afghanistan. The fate of Gul Bahadur in NWA also now hangs in balance. What will happen to the other Gul, Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul now ? I see many more names on the 'list'.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Oct 2014 12:42

Pakistan writes to UN chief, seeks intervention on Kashmir - PTI

Stepping up its attempts to internationalise the Kashmir issue, Pakistan has written to UN chief Ban ki-moon on the security situation along the LoC and the International Border with India and sought the world body's intervention in resolving the issue.

In a letter to UN chief Ban ki-moon, adviser to the Pakistan prime minister on national security and foreign affairs Sartaj Aziz accused India of "deliberate and unprovoked violations of the ceasefire agreement and cross-border firing" over the past weeks.

"I write to bring to your urgent attention the deteriorating security situation along the line of control in Jammu & Kashmir, as well as along the International Border between Pakistan and India...

"As you are aware, the Jammu & Kashmir dispute is one of the long outstanding issues on the agenda of the UN security council, whose resolutions promising the holding of a plebiscite, under the auspices of the United Nations, for self-determination of the people of Jammu & Kashmir, remain valid though unimplemented to date," Aziz wrote in the letter which was released by Pakistan foreign office here.

He added that Pakistan has been reminding the UN and the international community since decades to fulfill that promise, in the interest of "durable peace and security in the region."

Referring to Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's address to UN general assembly last month during which he emphasized on the need to resolve the whole issue of Jammu & Kashmir, Aziz said "unfortunately, India has adopted a policy that runs counter to its stated desire to engage in a serious bilateral dialogue with Pakistan."

He added, "India cancelled, unilaterally and without any plausible justification, the foreign secretary-level talks that were scheduled to be held on August 25, 2014." { How can Ban-ki-Moon intervene in this?}

Asking Ban to circulate the letter as an official document of the security council, Aziz said Pakistan believes that the UN has an important role to play in promoting the objective of peaceful resolution of the Kashmir issue, including through his "good offices, which we have always welcomed, and the crucial role of the UNMOGIP on ground, which needs to be strengthened and facilitated under the current circumstances."

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 12 Oct 2014 14:23

partha wrote:Someone vandalized supreme court of pajamastan board.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/774174/supr ... andalised/

partha Ji :

A comment : GoNawazGo :

I did it. It stands for:

Prime Minister Out of Parliamentary Assembly, Today And Now.

You’re Welcome.

Cheers

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 12 Oct 2014 14:44

Don’t bribe Pak with gas when we need it more

The government seems serious about a ridiculous proposal — supplying Pakistan five million units of imported gas per day, enough for two large power plants. When India is desperately short of gas, this is folly.

Many Indian power plants lie closed for want of gas. The consequent power shortage translates into lakhs of farmers with idle tubewells, hundreds of industries without power, and hence thousands of people without jobs. One industry is buying gas from coal mines at $22unit, five times the government controlled price of $4.2unit, indicating high scarcity. Why deprive Indians of gas to meet Pakistani needs? Diplomats claim the gas deal will improve Indo-Pak relations. I am all for it, but why in this manner? As a free trader, I favour lifting all barriers to trade and investment between the two countries. But Pakistan says no.

For decades, it refused to normalize economic relations till the Kashmir dispute was resolved, which meant forever. In recent years, Asif Ali Zardari and Nawaz Sharif have spoken of normalizing relations. Yet neither has found it politically possible to take the first step: giving India equal trade access with all members of the World Trade Organization.

This MFN (most favoured nation) rule is the foundation of WTO: each member offers non-discriminatory access to all others. This rule can be abrogated only on security grounds. India has long granted Pakistan MFN status, but Pakistan has refused to reciprocate — an explicit declaration of hostility. India and China have a disputed border and history of war, yet grant one another MFN status.

Two Pakistani leaders have promised MFN status but not delivered. Clearly, Pakistan is not ready for normalcy.

It faces virtual civil war in its northwest, with the army battling jihadis. Nawaz Sharif’s peace talks with the Taliban have ended in disaster. He is under siege in the capital, and has lost control of the administration.

One day, Pakistan will get its act together and realize that its own interests require normal economic relations with India. Let’s wait for that day. Such realization can come only through Pakistan’s own political dynamics. It must first convince itself that normal trade is an excellent thing.

Indian giveaways cannot create that conviction.

Worse, such Indian sops will actually subsidize the antitrade lobbies in Pakistan by reducing the pain of its stupid policies. Saving Pakistan from the consequences of its own stupidity can only aggravate that stupidity, not end it.

One blunt critic says: “The diplomatic argument seems to be that if only India drops its pants and offers its rear to Pakistan, this will lead in due course lead to normal intercourse.” That’s putting it too strongly, but you get the idea.

I am not among those seeking to ban economic relations with Pakistan till it stops aiding terrorists. I believe India must give Pakistan MFN status. But if Pakistan refuses to reciprocate, it is plain silly to try and bribe it into friendship through gas deals at the expense of Indian consumers.

India imports gas from the Gulf. Pumping it to Wagah will entail much cost and energy. The Jalandhar-Wagah pipeline will cost Rs 500 crore. Don’t we have better uses for scarce funds? Pakistan is believed to have offered a price that covers costs of transporting gas to the Wagah border. So what? Surely Pakistani consumers must compete with Indians in open auctions. If Indians are willing to pay $22unit, how can Pakistan be offered a lower price? Indian consumers pay 5% import duty on gas. Yet the government proposes waiving import duty for sales to Pakistan. Why favour Pakistanis over Indians? Diplomats argue that one day gas from Turkmenistan will be pumped through Afghanistan to Pakistan and India.

By supplying gas to Pakistan today, India will create a friendly atmosphere that ensures safe Turkmen supplies.

Sorry, but if Pakistan is so unreliable that it has to be bribed in advance, why have such a deal at all? Some security experts strongly oppose the Turkmenistan deal, saying Pakistan can choke off gas to India at will. This dire outcome cannot be prevented by supplying Pakistan with gas in advance. Rather, the Turkmen deal must include a clause for supplying gas to a 4,000 MW power plant in India, jointly owned by India and Pakistan, half of whose output will be exported to Pakistan. That way, if Pakistan ever stops gas supply to India, it will automatically lose 2,000 MW of electric supply, and Lahore will suffer blackouts. Pakistan will cuts its nose to spite India

This is the sort of deal that ensures mutual benefits and trust, and discourages unilateral sabotage. That is the way to go.

Cheers

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 12 Oct 2014 15:27

LokeshC wrote:IIRC she is a Pakhtoon, hated by the very Pakhtooni Taliban itself, and by default hated by the very Pakjabi TSPA and Isloo RAPEs. Very difficult chance she has of becoming PM/Prez.

IMVHO only.

KLNMurthy wrote: I would seriously doubt it. Her family party, descended from Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan himself, ANP is doomed to extinction sadly.

But we can dream about it. Pakistan under Malala and Afghanistan under Saleh.

Then go back to regular programming.

You guys are seeing only the background and missing what is happening on the mainstage.
1. She has become a celebrity and will get media attention, she has expressed desire to join politics
2. She has been given nobel prize for a reason, and that is not to highlight woman's ed in stfu.
3. There is a lot of time between now and the time she actually joins politics. Did you guys think that Im the dim would be CM of KP 10 years back. The fact that he has backing of external agencies has been important one.
Give it time, I am not saying she will join politics tomorrow, I am saying keep an eye on her, she will be one to watch.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 12 Oct 2014 19:29

SSridharJi,

We have seen the following red lines instituted by Modi govt:

1. Talks cannot be held under the cover of fire and terror. TSP startegy as we all know is to keep the pot boling, and during talks suggest that if Inia gives TSP, this, this, and that, the temperature will be reduce. In other words, negotiating by pointing a gun at India's head. Modi says none of that nonsense.

2. No dealing with separatist scum. Once again TSP strategy would be to discuss the "core issue" and present India with a fait-accompli, this is what the "Kashmiri people" want by pointing to the demands of the Harried rats. And this they will say is their compromise from moving away from UN resolutions. Look at their gall.

I would like more in the India media to play a more constructive role in exposing TSP perfidy. Not through useless shouting and grandiose pronouncements like Dorknob, but silence the "talks at any cost" lobby by pointing out the when it comes to India, there is unanimous consensus in TSP. Are Musharraf zaidi, Shezaad Chaudhary (both suave cum-sucking liars), or Peer Zada (he talks like a pigLeT) or that foul mouth abida hussein (she pissed on dorknob by categorically asserting that Hafeez pig is a "social worker") etc worth talking to?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 12 Oct 2014 20:20

A_Gupta wrote:
Jhujar wrote:Pak-India flag meeting on Tuesday
http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-16226 ... on-Tuesday

Does any Indian source confirm this?

Does any paki source?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 12 Oct 2014 20:45

KLNMurthy wrote:
Does any Indian source confirm this?
Does any paki source?

Geo TV carries essentially the same story.
Also "The Nation".

PS: Pakistani reports of a flag meeting scheduled for Tuesday:-- these are not independent reports in the sense that they all quote one source with identical language.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-16226 ... on-Tuesday
http://nation.com.pk/national/12-Oct-20 ... t-villages (scroll down)
http://www.geo.tv/article-162262-Pak-In ... on-Tuesday

PPS: I am unable to find any confirmation in the Indian press.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 12 Oct 2014 21:12

http://nation.com.pk/national/12-Oct-20 ... n-ib-times
Narendra Modi pushes India to up the ante in fighting with Pakistan: IB Times
October 12, 2014, 4:48 pm
INP
LONDON- Political and military officers in both countries and officials in New Delhi say the ceasefire violations that have killed nearly 20 civilians escalated because of a more assertive Indian posture under the new government of nationalist Prime Minister Narendra Modi, a report in International Business Times said Sunday.
"The message we have been given from the prime minister's office is very clear and precise," said a senior Indian Home Ministry official. "The prime
minister's office has instructed us to ensure that Pakistan suffers deep andheavy losses." In his first extensive comments on the violence, Modi told a political rally on Thursday - when 1,000 Indian mortars rained across into Pakistan – that "it is the enemy that is screaming". "The enemy has realized that times have changed and their old habits will not be tolerated," he said.
....
Officials say India's new policy is being orchestrated by Ajit Doval, the country's national security adviser, a decorated former intelligence official renowned for his role in dangerous counter-insurgency missions. He has long advocated tough action against Pakistan-based militant groups.
In August, after days of cross-border firing between India and Pakistan, Doval attended a meeting at the Home Ministry along with the head of the para-military Border Security Force (BSF) and a decision was taken to give a free hand to the ground commanders in Jammu, a top security official in the region said. Until then, the BSF, which guards the Jammu section of the border with Pakistan, had complained that instructions on how to respond to provocations were unclear.
....
Gautam

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 12 Oct 2014 21:56

Here is the original report. It makes my blood boil with rage and fury that while they acknowledge TSP firing on the LoC, but the flare up is blamed because India is responding more aggressively. Is this a failure of Indian diplomacy, or is it just a US-led immutable institutional policy that India must suffer a certain level of TSP violence and that India merely resonding to TSP provocations is labeled the guilty party?

http://www.ibtimes.com/narendra-modi-pu ... an-1703478

military officers in both countries and officials in New Delhi say the violence that has killed nearly 20 civilians escalated because of a more assertive Indian posture under the new government of nationalist Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 12 Oct 2014 22:08

CRamS wrote:Here is the original report. It makes my blood boil with rage and fury that while they acknowledge TSP firing on the LoC, but the flare up is blamed because India is responding more aggressively. Is this a failure of Indian diplomacy, or is it just a US-led immutable institutional policy that India must suffer a certain level of TSP violence and that India merely resonding to TSP provocations is labeled the guilty party?

http://www.ibtimes.com/narendra-modi-pu ... an-1703478

military officers in both countries and officials in New Delhi say the violence that has killed nearly 20 civilians escalated because of a more assertive Indian posture under the new government of nationalist Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

You can read it as blaming India, or as a note that Pakistan has received the message that India will not lie down and take it any more.

To me more distressing is the airtime given to e.g.,

An editorial in the Indian Express on Friday called for cooler heads, saying further escalation would damage India's reputation as a responsible nation and attractive investment destination, and could rekindle a separatist insurgency on its side of Kashmir.

First of all, Modi sarkar has given no indication that it will escalate {PS: in the sense of doing anything more than retaliate}; secondly, display of weakness or letting jihadis infiltrate is much more sure to "rekindle a separatist insurgency" than any of the alternatives. Thirdly, I think India will be a much more attractive investment destination if people believe that Pakistan will not fire across the border whenever they feel like.

Vivasvat · Post by **Vivasvat** » 12 Oct 2014 22:19

The polio and jalsa viruses in Pakistan

If nothing else matters , perhaps we should be ashamed that India has eradicated polio and, most certainly, if India can, so can we

Pakistan has this curious penchant to get chalked up in the various lists of infamy. [Just a list, no worries.]

Pakistan had almost eradicated the poliovirus in 2012 but the fake CIA hepatitis immunisation programme to gain information about Osama bin Laden brought efforts to a screeching halt. [Not our fault!]. The Taliban banned all immunisations as they felt that immunisation programmes were being used for spying. Some radicals also believe that immunisation programmes will be used as a cover for sterilisation of Muslim children.

Unlike India and Bangladesh, Pakistan has no population control programmes in place. [Bangladesh sped ahead? What a surprise!]

Tired of the stalemate with his D-Chowk dharna, Imran Khan figured he had to branch out into the jalsa business. Karachi was treated to a mammoth jalsa as were Lahore and Mianwali. Noticing his dharna had gotten a bit old, Tahirul Qadri has planned a jalsa.

Bilawal Bhutto has taken some intensive Urdu lessons so he can shout at the Karachi PPP jalsa soon. Bilawal still needs to work on his genders , something his mother also struggled with.

It never fails to amaze me that people from all walks of life sit for hours listening to alternately roaring and hissing Altaf Hussain, manic or somnolent, singing, reprimanding, praising or blackmailing a sea of his supporters.

It appears that the Sharifs are deaf and blind, evidenced by the statements of the brothers as well as the tweets of Maryam Nawaz. For her to tweet that security has been ordered to beat citizens who shout “go Nawaz go” is as ridiculous as Queen Marie Antoinette allegedly saying “let them eat cake” when she was told that the French people did not even have bread to eat.

Now which BRFite paid a visit?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 12 Oct 2014 22:34

"The prime minister's office has instructed us to ensure that Pakistan suffers deep and heavy losses." In his first extensive comments on the violence, Modi told a political rally on Thursday - when 1,000 Indian mortars rained across into Pakistan – that "it is the enemy that is screaming". "The enemy has realized that times have changed and their old habits will not be tolerated," he said.

(

)

We saw that explained elsewhere:
1. Infrastructure hit
2. Force deployment points (presumably military bases) hit
3. PA now hiding in villages wearing their standard-issue Burhkas.

Yess! VFI has been reading BRF!

Next up:
1. River bridges become impassable.
2. PA unable to move armor out of their bases.

Remember Mukti Bahini?

3. Balwaristan, Baluchistan, Pakhtoonistan and Sindh Azadi Fauj get more Azadi to move around without fearing PA response.
4. Lampposts in Pindi bow under their Military Weight.

partha · Post by **partha** » 12 Oct 2014 22:36

badmash should be carefool. Senior jernails may attack Isloo to restore H&D.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 12 Oct 2014 22:40

CRamS wrote:Here is the original report. It makes my blood boil with rage and fury that while they acknowledge TSP firing on the LoC, but the flare up is blamed because India is responding more aggressively. Is this a failure of Indian diplomacy, or is it just a US-led immutable institutional policy that India must suffer a certain level of TSP violence and that India merely resonding to TSP provocations is labeled the guilty party?

Sirji,
I find that the US and the European powers have been strangely quiet on this. At least the official sources are not saying much. In the older times, they would be quick to side with Pakistan. The old policy was we could fly the drones but you could not do anything to punish Pak behavior, do as we say not do as we do. Could be Pakistan fatigue after the Afghan wars, or the Modi effect, or the promise of future business with India or just that Pakistan has become a lost cause for every one. If India continues with sharp jhapads like this the West's behavior may change.
Gautam

partha · Post by **partha** » 12 Oct 2014 22:41

Vivasvat wrote:The polio and jalsa viruses in Pakistan
If nothing else matters , perhaps we should be ashamed that India has eradicated polio and, most certainly, if India can, so can we

This - we are TFTA, they are SDRE - is so deeply entrenched in the Paki psyche.
"If SDRE Yindoos can eradicate polio so can we TFTA Muslims"
"If SDRE Yindoos can send a spacecraft to Mars so can we TFTA Muslims..to pluto"

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 12 Oct 2014 23:49

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/10/1 ... 3B20141012

This Reuters articles is one of the more decent reporting I have seen. The Pakistani motorma who wrote it is usually clued in and is reasonable. (well, you can always nitpick on the title, but that is missing the point). You should follow her writing. I have reproduced snippets. Go read the entire article.

"The message we have been given from the prime minister's office is very clear and precise," said a senior Indian Home Ministry official. "The prime minister's office has instructed us to ensure that Pakistan suffers deep and heavy losses."

Modi's robust approach towards Pakistan, supporters say, is aimed at emphasising India's superior strength and making Pakistan's military think twice before firing across the border.

Since Modi's election victory in May, military commanders have been encouraged to step up border patrols and retaliate with more force if they come under attack. New Delhi has insisted there can be no talks with Pakistan unless it ends shootings and pushing militants into the Indian side of Kashmir.

"This is what we feared would happen if Modi came to power," said Ikram Sehgal, {So what was pagal sehgal's fear exactly? That there will not be any red carpets for terrorists who want to cross over?} a former Pakistani military officer and chairman of one of the country's largest security companies.

Officials say India's new policy is being orchestrated by Ajit Doval, the country's national security adviser, a decorated former intelligence official renowned for his role in dangerous counter-insurgency missions. He has long advocated tough action against Pakistan-based militant groups.In conversations with Reuters as head of a right-wing think tank in New Delhi before he joined the new government, Doval said India must lay down core security policies, one of which was "zero tolerance" for acts of violence.

Indians in the border areas of Kashmir, who have lived through decades of cross-border firing, said they themselves had noticed a change in tactics by the Indian forces. "Pakistan fires one, our boys fire six back," said Atma Ram, 71, who was standing about 300 metres (yards) from the electrified fence that separates the two countries in the Suchetgarh area near Jammu. "They are giving a response we should have given before."

Basically the message is that Pakis cannot do their usual thing. Point at the ceasefire, but kill one or two of our Jawans now and then. They have been doing that for the past decade. Sniping, setting off IEDs, beheading a few, launching commando raids and so on. If they do that now, we will respond at a place and time of our choosing, and not do the earlier "gentlemanly" approach of asking for a flag meeting, trying to shoot at the border outpost that launched the attack and so on. If one TFTA attacks, another TFTA 160kms away is going to get it.

I'd have liked more echandee exit strategy for Pakistan though. Keep putting a boot up their musharraf, but at the political level tell them how interested we are in peace. Pakistan typically plays the obfuscation game. Telling us they want peace, but the terrorists who they dont really control keep launching attacks and they want uninterrupted and uninterruptible dialgoue. We can play that game too. Tell them that we have asked commanders on the ground to do whatever they want, but at the political level we are interested in peace. But please dont provoke our commanders on the ground because we dont really know what they'll do in return. This is the best way of toilet training the Pakis. Telling them that promises for peace and MFN will not restrain our forces. Only thing that will restrain our forces is if they dont shoot at our forces. That way TFTA echandee is protected and they dont do anything stupid and at the same time they learn to behave.

I am still troubled at the terror implications though. The current government has made it clear that economic development is no 1 on its agenda. Last time that happened was in 1991 under PVNR. The multiple mumbai blasts which targeted the stock exchange, banks etc came in 1993. This was Pakistan's message to us that if we think our economy is no 1 concern, they wont let it happen unless we give them "concessions". I am pretty sure they are going to go down this path now. Hopefully we have thought of what leverage we have and what we are going to do if and when we are pushed down that path again.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 13 Oct 2014 00:26

The whole misunderstanding between India and Pakistan is that Indians seem to believe that Pakistan is a permanent thing, that we have to learn to live with each other etc.

Why does Pakistan have any right to exist as One Big Pakistan? Because the bloody British said so? Ha!
Every hostile act by Pakistan is an excuse to push hard towards the fundamental objective: Multi-Pakistanism. Or Many Little Pakistans where there was just the one big one before. All reducing each other to pakistan. All made to understand that hostility towards India == cause for becoming even more pakistans. None of this "calibrated response using same kind of weapon" etc. Just massive Retribution, but not just at border posts. Directed very economically and intelligently to reduce the Pakistan infrastructure and the Army's mobility to zero.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Oct 2014 01:23

Anujan wrote: I'd have liked more echandee exit strategy for Pakistan though.

For all of 5 seconds I thought the Nobel Committee had given them that.

Re: future leverage : all kinds of SNAFU has delayed Indian conventional forces' modernization. (e.g., this: http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=21325 ) To have leverage in case of a terrorist attack, Modiji needs to fix this problem urgently.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 Oct 2014 01:30

Listen to this long video of the good Haqqani interviewing Arif Jamal about his book

We all knew that Pakistan was in pakistan. But Jamal makes some startling revelations. Apparently there are billboards and wall chalkings in Pakistan announcing "want to lean how to Jihad? Join free 21 day course". Our friend the good professor Hafiz Saeed runs these camps where recruits (200 per week) are given a 21 day basic course. Like how to yell AoA!! shoot a few weapons and make a few IEDs. I suspect mostly this is attended by yahoos who want to get into other careers. Like bank robbery and kidnapping. Or maybe even bodyguards for various sectarian Mullahs.

Arif Jamal says he stayed at one of these camps, saw the recruits and training himself. Most Abduls are idiots, but there are some really talented ones*. Some of the brightest are apparently identified and sent for more training. This roughly confirms the testimony of Ajmal Kasab. Kasab had mentioned that he signed up for the 21 day course and was later handpicked for a subsequent 3 month general training followed by a 6 month training specific to his mission. The amazing figure was the 200 yahoos were being recruited by a single training camp per week. And there are 3-4 such camps. Now tell me where do they get the money, weapons for this? And these camps are in middle of big cities like Lahore. This has 2 interesting implications

1. Violence inside Pakistan is not stopping any time soon. The more you train and arm citizens, the more they are likely to go Jeeeeehaaaarrrrdddd!!!! at the slightest provocations. Thats why abduls get kidnapped, Shias get massacred and Ahmadis get bull cuttled.

2. Terrorism against India is not stopping any time soon and these terrorists are likely to be extremely good at what they do. If you are going be in the 0.1% of the 10,000 attending per year, they are likely to be extremely good. Defending after they attack is a losing proposition. We need some other approach

* Reminds me of our NCC. One SDRE pointed a loaded SLR at my stomach when I was a cadet captain complaining that his gun wasnt firing

(gas regulator was shut too tight). But another senior SDRE (I think adminullah Suraj knows him) got 18 out of 20 rounds clustered around the bulls eye at 200 yards.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 13 Oct 2014 01:43

The whole misunderstanding between India and Pakistan is that Indians seem to believe that Pakistan is a permanent thing, that we have to learn to live with each other etc.

Exactly! This 'Stable Pak is in India's interests'/'We all are same and only Politicians spoil it' kind of liberal cliche crap has been floating far too long. The pragmatic and sensible approach is to make costs for mischief high for the Pakis. THat is exactly what Doval is doing. Go ahead fire a 100 rounds if you think its fun..we'll pulverize dozens of your forward posts if thats your idea of Ghazi kind of fun. That kind of has sunk in a bit. BUt being Paki's am not sure how much punishment one will have to inflict to make them realize. This approach of pulverizing is alright for the border. Backend we have to heat up Balochistan, Sindh, Pashtun independence from the too clever by half Pakjabi. The overall cost for mischief now must be exceedingly high and done subtly without a gloat.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 Oct 2014 02:15

Dont get me wrong, I am all for pulverizing posts. The reason I am skeptical this will work is that despite the musharraf kicking low level abduls get, the higher ups still sign peace treaties with the Talibs. One of the flaws I think is assuming that Pakistan army is a coherent unit. It is not. The jernails are happy swilling their whiskey and getting their plots. They go up to the abduls ask them to yell AoA!! and use them as canon fodder. This is happening as we speak in the badlands of FATA. This has happened before at Kargil. Why wouldnt it happen at the border now?

The biggest bloody nose we gave to the Pakis was in Kargil. That didnt stop them for long. The reason is that Mushy didnt give a sh1t about the abduls sitting in the mountains, he was busy taking over Pakistan.

We need some other approach. Encouraging a coup, or a mutiny would be a good start.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 13 Oct 2014 02:26

much punishment one will have to inflict to make them realize.

See? This IS the misunderstanding. I DON'T want them to 'realize' anything, for two reasons:
1. 67 years of relevant experience, 1400 years of learnable experience.
2. I don't want them to realize until it is too late for them.

Their 'provocations' are a great excuse. AS tragic as it is for Indian soldiers and civilians in the short term, I want them to continue. With the IA using EVERY opportunity to follow a clear plan that leads to the total breakup of TSP.

Yes, Anujan is right, the PA is not a cohesive unit operating selflessly in the National Interest: it is led by a bunch of sh1ts.

This is why I don't count their Abduls' casualties as our successes. Their destroyed infrastructure, destroyed mobility and cohesion, and the increased ability of the various Mukti Bahinis to overrun the Pakis - those are the objectives.

For instance, India has been totally silent in internal news except to claim "calibrated response" and "appropriate replies". The

is all on the other side, and in their newspapers. The news about the PMO's instructions is not from Indian media (hope it is deliberate, calibrated leak, not just a whisky leak!)

Deny everything. Just act according to plan.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Oct 2014 02:32

^^^ C.C. Fair has made it clear pulverizing posts won't work. Any morning the Pakis - jernails or abduls - wake up, they think "we were not annihilated last night, so we must have been victorious, onward with the next round of jihad." As she has repeatedly said, for the Pakistani military (and by extension, the jihadis), to live to fight one more day is victory - it doesn't matter how much they were bloodied on the previous day.

The change we need I'd describe as follows: the baniya class in Pakistan needs to come to the fore - sort of the Ferengi from Star Trek. Right now they are too much like the Klingons in the early Star Trek, all honor and blood and gore. Not that the Ferengi are pleasant, but they can be traded with, and would rather negotiate than fight. How to make that happen - I don't know - it would be a social engineering feat beyond compare for one nation to help foment such a revolution in a neighboring country.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Oct 2014 02:58

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ C.C. Fair has made it clear pulverizing posts won't work. Any morning the Pakis - jernails or abduls - wake up, they think "we were not annihilated last night, so we must have been victorious, onward with the next round of jihad." As she has repeatedly said, for the Pakistani military (and by extension, the jihadis), to live to fight one more day is victory - it doesn't matter how much they were bloodied on the previous day.

The change we need I'd describe as follows: the baniya class in Pakistan needs to come to the fore - sort of the Ferengi from Star Trek. Right now they are too much like the Klingons in the early Star Trek, all honor and blood and gore. Not that the Ferengi are pleasant, but they can be traded with, and would rather negotiate than fight. How to make that happen - I don't know - it would be a social engineering feat beyond compare for one nation to help foment such a revolution in a neighboring country.

If your neighborhood bully keeps hitting you, and you finally get tired of it and hit him back and break or severely bruise his hitting arm, and keep doing it, the bully may or may not realize his mistake and become a non-bully. And his more peaceful business-minded brother may or may not take over from the bully and focus on selling you vegetables from their backyard. And the bully may or may not feel victorious because he still has functioning limbs left.

Only one thing you can reasonably sure of--the injury to the arm as well as muscle memory of the pain will impair the bully's ability to hit you over the long run (even if he mounts an enraged counter-counter attack in the immediate run) provided you keep up a consistent policy of inflicting punishment.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Oct 2014 03:04

KLNMurthy wrote: If your neighborhood bully keeps hitting you, and you finally get tired of it and hit him back and break or severely bruise his hitting arm, and keep doing it, the bully may or may not realize his mistake and become a non-bully. And his more peaceful brother may or may not take over from the bully and focus on selling you vegetables from their backyard.

Only one thing you can reasonably sure of--the injury to the arm as well as muscle memory of the pain will impair the bully's ability to hit you next time.

No disagreement. Just that there is currently no peaceful brother, and nor is the bully going to give up. I don't know if in actual history, Ghori invaded nineteen times or only three. The point of the Ghori story of 19 invasions for the Indic civilization is that these guys never ever give up. Impairment is the most realistic outcome, in the absence of our ability to annihilate them within acceptable costs.

The long-term question is - can there be a peaceful brother, and how does that brother come about?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Oct 2014 03:17

There is a mythology about ghairatmandiness of paki khakis which is doled out by seemingly anti-TSPA sources and lapped up by Indians. It is that the TFTAs will do anything, even wage nuclear war, to protect their ghairat or honor. Pervez Hoodbhoy propagated this during Brass Tacks (when pakis had nukes and we didn't) and Christine Fair is doing a version of it now.

But TFTAs are humans like us and are subject to fear and pain and loss. They also happen to be cowards full of bluster. Their ghairat is not an expression of any moral conviction but only of their supremacy--TFTA/RAPE over paki abdul, Muslim over Hindu, etc.

I as a Hindu believe that effective honor is founded on moral convictions and will always win against a fake tamasic-rajasic honor based on supremacy.

When hoodbhoys and Fairs preach to Indians that they should give into paki ghairat, they find receptive audience in those lacking moral conviction.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Oct 2014 03:25

^^^the point about Ghori is a good one. I have been thinking for some time that the idea of a jihad by Indic dharmics is not a bad one. Ghori succeeded because the focus was on defense; without a jihadi fire in the Hindu belly, fatigue was bound to set in, in the face of persistence.

Impairment of the bully should be leveraged into a continual degradation till the enemy's spirit becomes disembodied like voldemort.

The question of peaceful brother should not preoccupy us too much. If the enemy embodies evil, as I believe, then there is no point in wishing him well in the form of a peaceful brother emerging and taking over. If some such thing does emerge, defying expectations, well and good.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Oct 2014 03:26

^^^ again, no disagreement that Satya alone will triumph.

Nor should India make any concession to Pakistani imaginary or real ghairat/honor. (Nor have I seen C.C. Fair suggest that, from the recent three videos of her talks that I've watched. )

Agreed that TFTAs are human, so that is why we can hope that a peaceful brother can emerge. But those currently in the grip of their ideology cannot change, they will change only on their deathbed. Some might change individually, but they will be promptly bull cuttled; change en masse is not in the cards.

So this is a long battle ahead. What Modiji is doing now will have to continue for a generation or more until the results become permanent. Guard against Hindu fatigue.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Oct 2014 03:29

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ again, no disagreement that Satya alone will triumph.

Nor should India make any concession to Pakistani imaginary or real ghairat/honor. (Nor have I seen C.C. Fair suggest that, from the recent three videos of her talks that I've watched. )

Agreed that TFTAs are human, so that is why we can hope that a peaceful brother can emerge. But those currently in the grip of their ideology cannot change, they will change only on their deathbed. Some might change individually, but they will be promptly bull cuttled; change en masse is not in the cards.

So this is a long battle ahead. What Modiji is doing now will have to continue for a generation or more.

Fair may not have suggested surrender, but the implication of a persistent enemy with nukes is not that far off . That was Hoodbhoy's logic, and I don't see Fair as being that far off.

Actually, it is compelling enough logic, provided we are prepared to resume an existence as virtual
slaves to a very brutal and vainglorious aristocracy that is infinitely more stupid than we are.

For me, it is the realization of the innate stupidity and brutality of the enemy that was the tipping point: there is no real assurance of protection against nuclear war as long "monkey with a sword" is around. So, we would be sacrificing our liberty and dignity in exchange for nothing.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 13 Oct 2014 04:15

We Tend to over analyze and under-execute!

If one pursues the pappi-jappi strategy, then it makes sense only if the end goal is the implosion of the paki-satan. In that without an external enemy they tear and eat themselves even while we keep talking peace...

If on the other hand one assumes a robust muhtod-jawab, then it is perhaps being pursued the wrong way. The end goal here may be the eventual pacification and retraining of the belligerent mafia force.
In this case pursuing the strategy of taking down a mafia suggests wiping out the head(s) not the tail as is being done right now.

My suggestion is both these strategies are flawed - if ones does peace overtures and lets paki-satan fester it is still India's neighborhood and who wants a festering cesspool next door. If one goes about it like the second option - take out the mafia head(s), the problem never goes away as new heads will pop up and a free, liberal paki-satan is nothing but India, so why does the mafia want that?

The only was forward is that which BRF is well aware of but GOI seems reluctant to pursue.
Independent Baluchistan, Sind, etc. Now the issue with this strategy is that we will not have a buffer with Afghanistan or Iran, but it is better than what we have now! At the very least the strategy should be to have a viable corridor to access the Middle-East and pacify the rest with internal or external threats.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 Oct 2014 04:29

BTW Helmand province is about to fall to the talibs. Helmand has the distinction of being the Heroin central of Afghanistan. Atleast ISI has its priorities straight.

partha · Post by **partha** » 13 Oct 2014 04:42

Motorma Fair says the new GoI has developed a range of options against Pakistan unlike the previous GoI which only considered "do nothing or go to war". More on that here -
http://www.voanews.com/content/kashmir- ... 80050.html

Pakistan’s powerful military, is not interested in better relations with India, according to regional experts based at several Washington think tanks.

Christine Fair, author of "Fighting to the End: The Pakistan Army’s Way of War," describes the current state of affairs as “Kargil in slow motion.”

Fair, who teaches at Georgetown University, believes the current fighting serves two purposes for the Pakistani military -- to undermine Sharif's attempt at improving relations with India, and to test the resolve of the new Modi government in India. "They understand full well that unlike Manmohan Singh who was willing to pursue some sort of peace with Pakistan at all cost, they know Modi is not up for that," she said.

Shahzad Chaudhry, a retired air vice marshall of Pakistan’s air force, argues the military is too busy fighting militants on its own soil to want a fight with India. “Why would the Pakistan military do such a think when it is already engaged in North Waziristan,” he asked.

This is the exact same argument RAPE Mosharraf Zaidi made on NDTV Big Fight program. Looks like both of them were briefed by ISPR.

India’s new national security adviser, decorated spymaster Ajit Doval, has long advocated a policy of “defensive offense” against Pakistan.

According to Doval, India cannot take overtly offensive actions against Pakistan for fear of starting a nuclear war, but there are other ways to punish Pakistan for supporting terrorist activities inside India.

Doval explained his idea last year in a detailed lecture at the SASTRA Academy in Tamil Nadu, India, which was uploaded to YouTube:

“Pakistan’s vulnerabilities are many, many times higher than that of India. Once they know that India has shifted its gear from the defensive mode to defensive-offense they will find that it is unaffordable for them. You can do one Mumbai, you may lose Balochistan.”

That SASTRA talk by Doval is a must watch. Whoever has not seen it yet, please watch it on Youtube. It gives some insight into how the man thinks.

Fair says the relatively dovish government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh felt it had only two options, to “do nothing or go to war.” But the new administration in New Delhi may already be developing a range of options to be used against Pakistan.

We no longer have dovish government but Dovalish government

“This could include, for example, using aircraft to bomb militant training camps across the LOC," Fair said. "That’s fair game, I think, in the eyes of this government and what would Pakistan do? Complain that Indians were bombing militant training camps?”

The recent Modi-Obama joint statement mentioned "dismantling terror camps" in Pakistan and Afghanistan (which has made some RAPEs nervous). So it is interesting that Motorma Fair should mention about India bombing terror camps across LoC.

partha · Post by **partha** » 13 Oct 2014 04:49

The NDTV Big Fight program I referred to above -
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bi ... ire/341246
Some Paki loser called Tariq Peerzada made a complete fool of himself. Anybody knows who he is? Was he a diplomat?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 13 Oct 2014 04:50

UlanBatori wrote:The whole misunderstanding between India and Pakistan is that Indians seem to believe that Pakistan is a permanent thing, that we have to learn to live with each other etc.

Why does Pakistan have any right to exist as One Big Pakistan? Because the bloody British said so? ..

Great point.

partha · Post by **partha** » 13 Oct 2014 04:54

UBji, I would like to give a bojitive spin to "Give peace a chance, destroy Pakistan" and say "Break up Pakistan to save Pakistan."

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Oct 2014 05:04

More than rhetoric: Bilawal pleads for Kashmir plebiscite

Concluding his remarks to the youth assembly, the Bilawal said, “I beseech the world: listen to the people, listen and learn from Pakistan.”

This fotu is so precious that it should be added to the picture gallery along with Shrilleen's, do check out the Obama-esque parcham in buttonhole: