India-US Relations : News and Discussion

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csaurabh
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by csaurabh »

Taken from facebook post ..
George Djorgovski
9 hrs ·
So the TMT ground breaking ceremony turned into an embarrassing fiasco, thanks to the native Hawaiian (fringe) protesters. This was 100% predictable, in my opinion. I will refrain from making extensive, politically incorrect comments on the subject of their opposition to astronomy.
But I will also note that the choice of Mauna Kea as the site for this telescope was entirely political, and not scientific. I was in charge of the TMT site selection survey, and among the sites tested, Mauna Kea was not the best; Armazonas, where the EELT will be built, was. In addition to the site quality, other scientific reasons also favor the Southern hemisphere, e.g., the presence of other, complementary facilities there: LSST, ALMA, SPT, the son of CCAT, SKA and its precursors, etc. etc. However, we did not even test what is likely *the* best site in the world, on the basis of its location and elevation, Quimal, because it is a holly mountain to the Atacama indians, and the project did not have the nerve to deal with a potential conflict there (which I suspect could be solved with a proper, relatively modest investment in their community). Yet, Mauna Kea, where there is a guaranteed, long-standing conflict was chosen. Ah, the self-inflicted karma can be a bitch.
George Djorgovski @Peter: it is not a matter of money, but a sheer irrationality. @Bharat: of course TMT-India knows all about it, and the politics does not involve China in this case. Also, there are no high quality astronomy sites in India (or China, or Japan); the best ones are in N Chile, then Mauna Kea, then probably Canary Islands, then Namibia and the SW USA and Baja California. There is a good scientific understanding of all this, and a large body of measurements. Mauna Kea is a very good site, but not quite as good as some in Chile, which is why everybody except us wants to build telescopes there.
Ardeshir
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Ardeshir »

Another NYT Editorial on India. The takleef is getting to be too much. :rotfl: :rotfl:
False Teachings for India's Students
Prime Minister Narendra Modi has promised India’s youth a bright future. As he is well aware, realizing that promise will depend on dramatically increasing educational quality and opportunity for the 600 million Indians under age 25, many of whom lack basic reading and math skills. In its 2014 Election Manifesto, Mr. Modi’s party, the Bharatiya Janata Party, called education “the most powerful tool for the advancement of the nation and the most potent weapon to fight poverty.” The question now is whether educational reform will be used not just to create an educated citizenry and trained work force but also to promote a particular ideology.

While campaigning ahead of the May election, Mr. Modi, then the chief minister of the state of Gujarat, promised to bring the “Gujarat model” to national governance. Many voters understood this to mean a commitment to a more dynamic economy. But the Gujarat model has a less attractive side to it: a requirement that the state’s curriculum include several textbooks written by Dinanath Batra, a scholar dedicated to recasting India’s history through the prism of the Hindu right wing.

In February, Mr. Batra led a successful effort to pressure Penguin India to withdraw copies of a book by Wendy Doniger, a religion professor at the University of Chicago, which he felt insulted Hinduism. Then, in June, the Gujarat government directed that several of Mr. Batra’s own books be added to the state’s curriculum. Mr. Batra’s teachings range from the trivial to assertions that simply cannot be taken seriously. His books advise students not to celebrate birthdays with cakes and candles, a practice Mr. Batra considers non-Indian. More troublingly, they instruct students to draw maps of “Akhand Bharat,” a greater India, presumably restored to its rightful boundaries, that include Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Tibet, Nepal, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Mr. Batra also believes that aircraft, automobiles and nuclear weapons existed in ancient India, and he wants children to learn these so-called facts.

In 1999, the national government, then led by the Bharatiya Janata Party, put Mr. Batra in charge of rewriting history textbooks to reflect these and other views of the Hindu right. Now it appears that the party intends to pick up where it left off when it was voted out of power in 2004. Mr. Batra says Smriti Zubin Irani, the minister of human resource development, has assured him his books will soon be a part of the national curriculum. The education of youth is too important to the country’s future to allow it to be hijacked by ideology that trumps historical facts, arbitrarily decides which cultural practices are Indian, and creates dangerous notions of India’s place alongside its neighbors.
member_28797
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by member_28797 »

As expected it seems the westerners are getting upset about education system too. It is their way of mass producing pro-west macaulites. They have used secularism and INC as a proxy to keep a tight hold on Indian education system. Especially Indian history and culture. There was some survey that showed that Indian education system only taught about 12% of India's culture to it's people. And the media isn't the best representation of Indian media
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

What is galling for western edu MNCs is that Indian "public schools"allegedly steeped in western traditions are actuallyproducing" good citizens of India", proud and patriotic.More Indian families are also sending their kids to Indian colleges and Bus. schools.The craze for Oxford-Foxford and ivy league establishments is on the wane.There are new nations and univs. for the well-heeled .
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Roperia »

Pentagon approves two technology transfer licences to India | TOI

Licence specifics not revealed. Pentagon also sets aside $20 million for strategic co-operative S&T initiatives.


-------

About the NYT editorial, we should expect this. NYT is idealistic (except of course when it toes US administration's line, they printed that Iraq had WMDs to support the case for Iraq invasion :rotfl: ).

As long as NYT editorials criticize India, something good is being done in India.
Last edited by Roperia on 10 Oct 2014 13:51, edited 2 times in total.
JE Menon
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

^^or when these liberal (at your cost) people sitting in sanitised Western capitals who have no clue about India on the ground offer unsolicited and often overly solicitous advise.
Manny
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Manny »

Talking about Wendy Doniger

Musings of a Desi Contrarian

http://www.desicontrarian.com/

WENDY DONIGER’S HATRED OF THE BRAHMINS IS NOT VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE CHRISTIANS HATRED OF THE JEWS OF THE 30S,
OCTOBER 5, 2014 LEAVE A COMMENT EDIT
Alternate history of the Jews written by none other than the protestant founder Martin Luther in his “Jews and their Iies” which almost every christian German was influenced by and their subsequent hatred for their upper caste Jews. There was the perception that the Jews not unlike the upper castes/Brahmins had a monopoly of the Arts, the sciences and their financial institutions and everything else of importance in Germany during the 30s and that others were prohibited from doing bigger and better things on their own. The “poor ordinary Germans” were the backward castes who needed to be saved from the alleged eviI upper caste Jews. The only way that could be done was to take the Jewish history and Jewish culture and rewrite them for the benefit of the “underdogs” of Germany. Lets show these upper castes that we the populists can do to them ..We the backward caste ordinary Germans have a number on these elites. So Martin Luther and Hitler and others went about rewriting Jewish history and culture and had their own interpretations which they embellished to their satisfaction. Thus was born the alternate Jewish history of “Jews and their Iies” and Mein Kampf.

Wendy’s quixotic hatred for the upper castes Hindus and Brahmins is not very different from the German’s hatred of the Jews. So this arrogant creature had decided to rewrite the Hindu religion, Hindu culture and reinterpret Hinduism in a way to get her pound of flesh from the upper caste Brhamins in her siding with the backward castes of India. The German Academia published tons of materials against Jews too. So much for Academia. Wendy Doniger probably went to learn from some Brahmins in India and being an arrogant woman, they probably threw her out and hence she has gone on this crusade against brahmins using tactics that antisemites of Europe had done. Oh lord! the irony!

PS: Full disclosure..that is my Blog! :rotfl:
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

As expected, bharara is running true to form.......

Bharara, other US officials ‘assisted those behind court-summons to Modi’

Bharara’s anti-India bias is ascribed to his alleged linkages with pro-Khalistan elements.


MADHAV NALAPAT New York | 11th Oct 2014

ppointed to the post by US President Barack Obama, Preet Bharara, the Prosecuting Attorney for the Southern District of New York, "played a key role in facilitating the issuance of a court summons directed at Prime Minister Narendra Modi" during the latter's 26-29 September visit to New York, according to key office-holders in the city and in New Jersey. They claimed that the organisations responsible for the plaint, which resulted in the summons were, according to them, "assisted by Bharara and other US officials in the drafting of the documentation presented to the court", which is located within his territorial jurisdiction in New York City. These sources claim that the groups responsible for the summons have been in regular touch with key US officials in New York and Washington during the process of preparation of the complaint against Prime Minister Modi to the US court and that the fact that summons was about to be issued "was known to the Obama administration well in advance of the event".

On 25 September, just as the special Air India aircraft ferrying the Prime Minister to New York stopped over in Frankfurt for refuelling, the Federal Court of the Southern District of New York issued a summons in his name, asking for a response by 15 October. "The summons violated all canons of due process in the US", a key official in New Jersey pointed out, saying that "no chance was given to the other side to make a representation, nor was there any hearing on the merits of the matter before an action as drastic as the issuing of a summons to an incumbent Head of Government of a friendly state". Although some officials in his entourage wanted the Prime Minister to signal his displeasure by cancelling his US trip and returning to Delhi, Prime Minister Modi himself reacted coolly and opted to face the situation head on by proceeding as scheduled to New York. It was subsequently made clear by the Obama administration that because he was Head of Government of a sovereign state, Prime Minister Modi had immunity from such legal procedures, and that therefore the summons was infructuous. However, there were anxious moments amongst Indian officials in Frankfurt and Delhi when word was first received of the controversial move on the part of the US federal court.

An official in Washington claimed that the decision by the federal judge "was the result of a nudge" from Bharara. However, those tracking the mediagenic US attorney in NYC say that on the contrary, "Preet Bharara is very respectful of law and procedure and would never seek to influence a judge". However, they are silent on accusations that he is personally familiar with those responsible for the plaint, or that he assisted in its preparation.

Prosecuting Attorney Bharara has prosecuted nearly 40 citizens of Indian origin in his five years in office, and detractors ascribe this bias (in a context where those of Indian descent are far from being the major depredators on Wall Street) to his linkages with pro-Khalistan elements, according to a retired official. A source claimed that Bharara knew officeholders of the Coalition Against Genocide (CAG), as well as Sikhs for Justice (SFJ), two organisations who for several years have concentrated their fire on Narendra Modi. These organisations, according to a former official detailing developments in the case, were instrumental in getting the American Justice Center to file a case in the New York Southern District Federal Court under the Alien Tort Claims Act and the Victim Protection Act, both of which empower such courts to conduct trials in cases of human rights violations taking place, even if outside the US. The allegations made in the plaint relate to the 2002 riots in Gujarat, and have been shown to be false by successive courts and investigations in India since that period. Such absence of evidence of Modi's culpability has been explained away by his detractors as being due to his "influence", although that Narendra Modi had such a decisive hold over Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh during the term in office of the UPA may be news to both of them. Interestingly, both the SFJ as well as the CAG have multiple contacts with US-based ISI officials and agents, and have an opaque funding structure.

The ISI and its friends have been particularly active on Capitol Hill, encouraging a host of NGOs to lobby with the US Congress to try and get passed House Resolution 417 in November 2013, which targets India on the ground that the country suffers from an "absence of religious freedom". None of the Representatives who voted for such a resolution appear to believe that there is any absence of such freedoms in countries such as Saudi Arabia or in China, given that it is only India which has been specifically targeted in the resolution. Not surprising, in view of the ISI link to the lobbying process behind its introduction and attempted passage. Nearly four dozen US Representatives backed the resolution, which in effect singles out Hindus as a bloodthirsty and violent group which routinely oppresses minorities in India.

The Obama administration has thus far looked with a benign eye on such India-bashing, itself authoring (through the State Department) an annual report on religious freedom, which consistently brackets India as a country where religious freedom is under threat, with the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, the 2002 Gujarat riots and the 2007 Kandhamal anti-Christian riots in Orissa coming for special mention. These reports are based on the Religious Freedoms Act of 1999, which created a "US Commission on Religious Freedom", which while sparing countries where actual discrimination takes place (but where the US has extensive business interests), targets India extensively. This Commission was behind the 2005 decision to revoke the US visa earlier given to then Chief Minister Narendra Modi, a ban on entry nullified only by his becoming Prime Minister of India on 26 May 2014.

Interestingly, during September 2013, both Manmohan Singh as well as Sonia Gandhi were issued summons by US courts during visits, on the ground that they were complicit in protecting those responsible for the 1984 riots. Those charges collapsed because in the case of Manmohan Singh, he was not in office when the riots took place, while the case against Sonia Gandhi folded because there were no actual victims among the plaintiffs. In the case filed against Prime Minister Modi, these defects were rectified. He was in office (as CM) during the 2002 riots, while thus far two plaintiffs have come forward who have claimed to have suffered losses during the 2002 riots, both from Anand in Gujarat. They have been named in court documents as Asif and "Jane Doe". According to a senior New York-based official, ISI-affiliated organisations in NYC are making efforts at tracking down others in Gujarat willing to be enlisted in the ongoing effort to malign Prime Minister Modi.

That officials in the Obama administration knew of the court process before summons were issued and kept the matter from India, and according to sources, actively participated in the process of preparing plaints against Prime Minister Modi. This indicates that the Obama administration is a divided house, with President Obama himself laying out the red carpet for the PM, even as some officials connive at getting a US federal court to issue a summons against him, despite the absence of a hearing or any other kind of enquiry about the genuineness or otherwise of the charges made in the American Justice Center complaint.

Certainly the ISI and its friends will continue to try and use US courts and the extra-territorial laws in that country to throw mud at a political leader who has captured the imagination of the Indian people in a manner not seen since Indira Gandhi.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by vivek.rao »

I hope Doval and his co figure out the conspiracy behind the 2 scums who got visa and convict their helpers in India most likely NGOs/Teesta. You can't leave these people after their criminal nexus.
Last edited by vivek.rao on 13 Oct 2014 07:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

From the past - has Chuck Hagel changed since then?
http://freebeacon.com/politics/chuck-ha ... n-problem/
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Post by Nandu »

^^I am sorry, but this Madhav Nalapat seems to be a conspiracy theory spinner. I would strongly advise against taking his word as truth without corroborating evidence.
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Post by Satya_anveshi »

-del-
Last edited by Satya_anveshi on 13 Oct 2014 07:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by sivab »

Nandu wrote:^^I am sorry, but this Madhav Nalapat seems to be a conspiracy theory spinner. I would strongly advise against taking his word as truth without corroborating evidence.
Agree, its gas. He doesn't seem to be familiar with US court procedures. In US system a summon is routinely issued when a case is filed. In the Namo case summons was issued by court clerk. Here is the summons doc.

http://im.rediff.com/news/2014/sep/25modi_summons.pdf
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

Prof. Nalapat conveys a mix of news reports, intel reports, rumor and a wee bit of CT. Generally his heart is in the right place, so I would say he is at least as re-lie-able as Pankaj Mishra and Fox News types.

I agree that the "they gave a summons without even finding out the facts" is a misdescription of court process, but so was the whole idea of issuing a summons in the first place. The suspected role of the S. Manhattan prosecutor's office is a valid suspicion. I didn't know PB had prosecuted 'over 40' desi origin ppl re: Wall Street scams.

There is no doubt, real fear among NY desis about speaking out. Look at that (poorly-written) Petition against Preeta Bansal. VERY FEW New Yorkers have signed with their names visible.

All in all, he is a good inroad into the yoo kay media. Win-win.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

sivab wrote:
Nandu wrote:^^I am sorry, but this Madhav Nalapat seems to be a conspiracy theory spinner. I would strongly advise against taking his word as truth without corroborating evidence.
Agree, its gas. He doesn't seem to be familiar with US court procedures. In US system a summon is routinely issued when a case is filed. In the Namo case summons was issued by court clerk. Here is the summons doc.

http://im.rediff.com/news/2014/sep/25modi_summons.pdf
The stress/emphasis is not on the summons, it is on the two John Doe/Jane Does. Make of it what you will.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Kashi »

sivab wrote:
Nandu wrote:^^I am sorry, but this Madhav Nalapat seems to be a conspiracy theory spinner. I would strongly advise against taking his word as truth without corroborating evidence.
Agree, its gas. He doesn't seem to be familiar with US court procedures. In US system a summon is routinely issued when a case is filed. In the Namo case summons was issued by court clerk. Here is the summons doc.

http://im.rediff.com/news/2014/sep/25modi_summons.pdf
What does that have to do with
"assisted by Bharara and other US officials in the drafting of the documentation presented to the court"
Is this in some way incompatible with the "US court procedures"?
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by vivek.rao »

Modiji is causing massive kujli in the rear ends of racist scums in NY Times. They are the new Tehelka obsessed with Modi and writing weekly editorials on every Modi's actions. Hopefully he causes enough takleef to these racist scums that may be some of them will go kaput

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/13/world ... rship.html
Watching Prime Minister Narendra Modi over the last month, as he began to carve out an image for himself beyond India’s borders, one might have gotten the impression that Mohandas K. Gandhi was his ideological progenitor, or his running mate.

Gandhi is everywhere in Delhi these days. A stylized drawing of his steel-rimmed, circular glasses is the logo of Mr. Modi’s new cleanliness drive, Swachh Bharat Abhiyan, introduced with great fanfare on the anniversary of Gandhi’s birth. He is posed with a broom and basket on the cover of Organiser, the magazine of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, the right-wing Hindu organization connected to Mr. Modi’s party. When the president of China, Xi Jinping, visited, Mr. Modi received him at Gandhi’s ashram. Then Mr. Modi visited President Obama in the United States and presented him with a copy of Gandhi’s translation of the Bhagavad Gita.

Continue reading the main story
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Gandhi, of course, is an unlikely avatar for the ascendant right wing in India. For most of the last century, Gandhi has been the symbolic leader of the Indian National Congress party, which Mr. Modi drove from power this year. Gandhi’s economic vision was fundamentally anticapitalist: He extolled rural over urban life and called industrialization “a curse for mankind.” During his lifetime, Gandhi was excoriated by right-wing activists — including the man who assassinated him — for acquiescing to the creation of Pakistan and advocating the rights of India’s Muslim minority.

Though Mr. Modi has always spoken of Gandhi with respect, he has echoed the criticism that Congress leaders gave preferential treatment to India’s minorities. Mr. Modi’s reputation as a Hindu hard-liner was defined in 2002, when bloody sectarian riots broke out under his watch as chief minister of the state of Gujarat. No Indian court has found him responsible for the riots, which left more than 1,200 dead, most of them Muslims.

So the Gandhi now embraced by Mr. Modi is an edited version. First and foremost, he is a preacher of cleanliness — a fair depiction, since he was passionate on the subject, known for seizing brooms and for insisting that even highborn followers, like his wife, empty their own chamber pots.

Mr. Modi has endorsed some elements of Gandhi’s economic thinking, urging consumers to buy homespun cloth instead of imported products. But his Gandhi hardly believes that “the future of India lies in its villages.” To a prosperous crowd of mainly Indian-Americans at Madison Square Garden in New York last month, Mr. Modi described Gandhi as a character remarkably like them, a man who “went abroad, became a barrister, had opportunities,” but “came back to serve the nation.”

Tushar A. Gandhi, the great-grandson of the independence leader, has watched this process from his home in Mumbai with curiosity and, at times, satisfaction.

He noted, however, that during his 12 years as a state leader, Mr. Modi had never invoked Gandhi with such enthusiasm.

“In this short period of 100 days that he has been the prime minister of India, it seems everything he does is guided by Bapu,” he said, using an affectionate term meaning father. “It is a bit of a surprise. The only thing I can say at the moment is, I hope it is sincere.”

Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main storyContinue reading the main story
While preparing to seek the post of prime minister, Mr. Modi set out to create political space for himself outside the Hindu right wing, in part by laying claim to beloved figures associated with the Congress party.

The most obvious was the independence fighter Sardar Patel, known as “the Iron Man of India,” whom Mr. Modi so admires that he has begun a project to build a 597-foot Patel monument, tall enough for recognition in the Guinness Book of World Records. There is little mystery in why Mr. Modi identifies with Mr. Patel. He was a rival to India’s first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, and unlike the secular, Anglophile Mr. Nehru, Mr. Patel was an ascetic Hindu, far less sympathetic to the demands of India’s Muslims and more to the right on economic matters.

Outside India, however, Mr. Patel’s name provokes only a dive for an encyclopedia, whereas Gandhi’s prompts hushed reverence. More surprising, perhaps, is Mr. Modi’s effort to associate himself with Mr. Nehru, a leader whom he has publicly criticized in the past as weak. Last week, Mr. Modi called him “Chacha Nehru,” or “Uncle Nehru,” and proposed that his Nov. 14 birthday become a nationwide celebration of — you guessed it — hygiene and cleanliness.

With the adoption of Mr. Nehru, Mr. Modi has “got the whole packet” of Congress’s heroes, said Shiv Visvanathan, a social scientist and self-described liberal. “Congress is left with very little,” he said. “It’s literally a stealing of intellectual property.”

Tushar Gandhi declared last week that Mr. Modi’s rollout of the cleanliness campaign, which required top officials to go out and clean neighborhoods, was the only celebration in decades “which would have gotten Bapu’s seal of approval.”

Whether it represents an ideological shift toward the center is still unclear. Mr. Modi has a knack, unique among recent Indian leaders, for broadcasting political signals in all directions at once. Prabhu Chawla, editorial director of The New Indian Express, ticked off a long list of gestures aimed at proving Mr. Modi’s credentials as a Hindu nationalist. When he visited Nepal on a two-day trip, he stopped to make an offering at a famous Hindu temple. At the White House, he stuck to a religious fast and refused to eat or drink anything except hot water.

“His idea of India is Hindi Hindu — people who speak Hindi and those who are Hindu,” Mr. Chawla said. “He is wearing his Hinduism on his sleeve, and saying, ‘You take it or leave it.’ ”

Mr. Modi’s invocations of Gandhi may simply be an acknowledgment that one cannot rule India without allegiance to him. More than two decades have passed since Atal Vajpayee, the last prime minister to rise out of India’s right wing, began to praise Gandhi in public, opening the door for the Bharatiya Janata Party to interlace his name and image with Hindu nationalism, said Ashutosh Varshney, a professor of political science at Brown University.

Elements of Gandhi’s thinking fell by the wayside, he said, such as the love he professed for India’s Muslims and his vision of a “feminized,” less aggressive Hinduism. Professor Varshney added that there was nothing unusual in that.

“No one in India, not even Congress, has fully embraced Gandhi,” he said. “Gandhi is the father of the nation, no doubt. But Gandhi is also a difficult father.”

Cleanliness, in any case, is a proposition that no one can dispute.

Rajmohan Gandhi, the independence leader’s grandson, certainly could not, though he called it “an incomplete representation of Gandhian thought.” Asked whether the prime minister was moving in that direction, Rajmohan Gandhi said he was skeptical.

“Time will tell,” he said. “Gandhi is available to all to use or misuse. My complaining will make no difference. But Gandhi may spring back and create problems for those who misuse him.”
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Post by Shreeman »

The official US numbers on Indian languages are grossly understated. For example, while there are 3 million or so indian ethinicty residents or citizens, Hindi is artificially and wrongly relegated as a language spoken by around 500,000 people only.

This has always surprised me. It is an artifact of the census in part where Indians would pick an exotic mother tongue, say aasamese as their second language after english while the chinese uniformly pick simplified chinese over any regional affiliations.

This is as dumb as a brick. These numbers then drive a)education policy, b) communication policy, c) signs and help desks, d) cultural exchanges, and so on. Top 5 languages receive special attention nationally and hindi is not in top 15!

In general, if prioritised right -- the indian national language over regional tamil, telagu, punjabi choices (which can still be third and still important) could give a uniform visible voice to the indian diaspora. It would make a dumb illinois politician think twice about antagonising his cponstituents if the third sign after english and spanish were hindi and not chinese.

Wont happen. Indians are too dumb for it.
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Post by Suraj »

This is also partly a result of Chinese education system. While they have dialects, those are progressively dying out in favor of Putonghua, due to official state sponsorship of only one dialect. Further, Chinese has only one script. Everything is written the same way even if it's spoken differently in various dialects. Quite a different situation from Indian languages, which have different scripts as well. But yes there's a larger point in trying to select a language that gives widest community visibility.
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Post by Shreeman »

Suraj wrote:This is also partly a result of Chinese education system. While they have dialects, those are progressively dying out in favor of Putonghua, due to official state sponsorship of only one dialect. Further, Chinese has only one script. Everything is written the same way even if it's spoken differently in various dialects. Quite a different situation from Indian languages, which have different scripts as well. But yes there's a larger point in trying to select a language that gives widest community visibility.
Suraj,

While the chinese have indeed "selected" the han and simplified chinese exports to create a uniform chinese-american diaspora, you couldnt be more wrong about dialects. The average chinese vocabulary of even the chinese language symbols in nowhere close to the grasp of devnagri by all indians.

Reading print is one thing, writing is a lost art. The chinese presentba 3 million poresence only because there are "chinatowns" and americans are far too lazy to bother about the differences. To them, all chinese is PF Chang. Does Haldiram or udipi have this presence?

Indians have multiple choices to select both their native tongue and and hindi asnd deliberately shoot themselves in both feet just to spite their own mother land. The panjabis (I can read gurumukhi, and write it -- most sikhs who write punjabi cant) are the worst but each ethnic group is carrying on their british instilled divide and conquer agenda quite successfully. Temples do it on purpose (signs and material in three languages -- english, spanish, and native to the priests) quite often.

Worse, the NRI bunch will sometimes just ignore the census fortms altogether. The opportunity comes around only once so many years anbd I have yet to see any drive to present a true community sense. Even if this were to bring a sea change in immigration, travel, and benefits provided there ius no motivation whatsoever to remove this gross error and misperception.

Let uys not unbder-estimate the damage done by this. In the days of gross under-voting (50% is a high turnout) an affluent voting group of 1% carries the weight of not 2% but rather 10%. Eg see the jews or even the italians or poles or cubans. Where are their preet bhararas?

This is inexcusable. It would put a stop to the anti-india rhgetoiric in a jiffy if only the language numbers were corrected. However, the expats clearly dont want this. One upping the neighboring indian state is way more important.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by sivab »

Kashi wrote: What does that have to do with
"assisted by Bharara and other US officials in the drafting of the documentation presented to the court"
Is this in some way incompatible with the "US court procedures"?


Please read the article. Is there any proof that PB was involved, just some laughable sources. PB is a SoB doing dirty work for his masters, but don't let that confuse issue at hand. See below
"The summons violated all canons of due process in the US", a key official in New Jersey pointed out, saying that "no chance was given to the other side to make a representation, nor was there any hearing on the merits of the matter before an action as drastic as the issuing of a summons to an incumbent Head of Government of a friendly state".
...
An official in Washington claimed that the decision by the federal judge "was the result of a nudge" from Bharara.
Those bolded portions are laughable to say the least. He is quoting some official, who is not familiar with US procedures and hasn't even looked at court document. Anyone with reasonable amount of knowledge about UN or US immunities for soverign head of state/govt will know that this case was just a publicity stunt by a Kalisthani funded by ISI.

Given the DK interview in timesnow today, one can guess who is involved. Her powerful papa is contesting MH elections.

It is one thing for India to defend its officials, which it did and I am all for that. If DK wants to get back to US thats her personal issue and GoI should have nothing to do with that.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by sivab »

Kanchan Gupta @KanchanGupta · 11h 11 hours ago

I'm told by unimpeachable source in MEA no permission was sought by Devyani Khobragade and she would not have been given even if sought.
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Post by SBajwa »

Quote:
"assisted by Bharara and other US officials in the drafting of the documentation presented to the court"


Is this in some way incompatible with the "US court procedures"?
A district attorney is only responsible for his/her district for any CRIMINAL cases. For Civil cases (like this one) District Attorney does not represent the state because the case is between the two private parties. A person named Asif, Jane Doe and John Doe vs NAMO.

Prof. Nalapat is wrong with this article that Preetinder Singh Brar (Preet Bharara) is a Khalistani supporter., he is NOT!

Anybody can go to court and claim that while I was visiting Ahmadabad NAMO attacked me causing me anguish and thus since NAMO is in NYC I want to file a civil case against him.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by vivek.rao »

^^ Exactly. India has to clean its backyard not blame Amrikhans for everything.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

SBajwa wrote:
Quote:
"assisted by Bharara and other US officials in the drafting of the documentation presented to the court"


Is this in some way incompatible with the "US court procedures"?
A district attorney is only responsible for his/her district for any CRIMINAL cases. For Civil cases (like this one) District Attorney does not represent the state because the case is between the two private parties. A person named Asif, Jane Doe and John Doe vs NAMO.

Prof. Nalapat is wrong with this article that Preetinder Singh Brar (Preet Bharara) is a Khalistani supporter., he is NOT!

Anybody can go to court and claim that while I was visiting Ahmadabad NAMO attacked me causing me anguish and thus since NAMO is in NYC I want to file a civil case against him.
I am making no assumptions re. the DA re. khalistan, however, it is telling even to a blind person that NY court was chosen, Asif/Jane Doe/John Doe traveled to be present, and the summons was issued while Modi was enroute. They didnt just walk over there anbd find that AJC was there. Have you looked at what the AJC is?

His bias against Indian americans is more than obvious. That is his prosecution record. In what appears to be a witchhunt, he has overlooked priorities of his district in favor of his political ambitions. This man is no friend of the US or India. He is interested in higher political office only, and having his hat in the ring for Holders position speaks of a Palin style ambition.

Khalistan is not the only disagreement in the world. The DK incident, harrasment of the diplomatic officials in the NYC consulate all speak for themselves.

He is powerful enough, and does not need any defenders. Let him make statement of friendship towards India before anyone here spends bandwidth.

Without Asif/Jane/John Doe there would be no summons. It ius a breach of the law to try to serve a sitting head of goverment. Did the DA do anything to prevernt the issuing of the bounty? What is next -- a supari?

ps -- more than three americans are fighting in iraq/syria. this cleasning up of backyard business is bullshit. Heck more than three americans have caught ebola. cleanliness and all.

This is NOT how you show friendship. The DoS and the retired western asia based american military -- now lobbying for Lockheed or Blackwater or whatever -- are enough to mess up any dialog. And the Pakistanis have enough of a presence to create No hinduys! signbs in DC/VA itself.

You wanbt to blame India, join the ceasefire crowd.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by SBajwa »

Have you looked at what the AJC is?
I know what AJC is and have been following them from decades.

DK case was because of DK and nobody else!! and it is not that first time she has broken law! Check her and her father's issues in India.
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Post by Shreeman »

SBajwa wrote:
Have you looked at what the AJC is?
I know what AJC is and have been following them from decades.

DK case was because of DK and nobody else!! and it is not that first time she has broken law! Check her and her father's issues in India.
DK case was not because of DK. And even the great Preet Bharara didnt bring her ancestey into it.

My interest is that US-India relations become stronger than the politics of hate and equal-equal. And this political appointee is not doing the relationship any favors. If he had India or Americas interests at heart, he would step aside. Unless you think bad relations with India are in the US interest. I certainly do not see it that way.

What has happened with Bharara tenure is both unprecented (not just DK) and unimaginable. While folks like Spitzer set this route to stardom, just like him anyone in that mold is also falliable.

There are no defenders for PB here. And the microsoft CEO is being quartered and hung for much less than suggesting that a woman with dioplomatic immunity invited rape.

Please feel free to discuss this with other folks here, my interest in this conversation is at an ebb.

ps -- http://www.americanjusticecenter.org/officers/ AJC as AJC has only been around for so long. Who have you been following for decades?
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by member_22733 »

SBajwa wrote:
Have you looked at what the AJC is?
I know what AJC is and have been following them from decades.

DK case was because of DK and nobody else!! and it is not that first time she has broken law! Check her and her father's issues in India.
So if she "broke" the law in India (an internal matter of India), its ok to be treated like she was treated? Her breaking the "law" in India automatically makes her a criminal in the US. All this even before it was pretty clear (atleast to me from the articles I read) that there was no real mistreatment of the maid. Just a big open loophole exploited by a shady gang of sue-happy shady lawyer, ISI-Khalistanis and holier-than-thou whites and house slaves.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Suraj »

Shreeman wrote:While the chinese have indeed "selected" the han and simplified chinese exports to create a uniform chinese-american diaspora, you couldnt be more wrong about dialects. The average chinese vocabulary of even the chinese language symbols in nowhere close to the grasp of devnagri by all indians.
The simple fact is they have only one script, unless you count Manchu or Tibetan, which are separate languages. They may have vastly different dialects that are verbally unintelligible, but two people can make themselves understood by writing something down, provided of course, that both people can understand the characters written. In India, we can grasp verbal similarities even if we can't make sense of written scripts, or see similarities in the scripts.

Since we're primarily referring to choice of language as a written medium, they have an inbuilt advantage in the sense that they can say 'Chinese' and generally mean one thing (simplified Chinese script). However, there remains a distinction between traditional and simplified Chinese scripts. Those who learned one can't necessarily read the other well enough.

This is particularly true of older gen Chinese communities in the US, who are Cantonese and write in traditional letters, but 'Chinese' in US official circles is simplified script. In some cases, they specifically use a different dialect to exclude others from conversation; e.g. I know Taiwanese friends who use Taiwanese instead of Mandarin in restaurants where they don't want Mandarin speaking Mainland waitstaff knowing what they're saying. Therefore, they have plenty of issues with linguistic and script intelligibililty of their own, and more than a little disagreements amongst themselves.

That's not to say there isn't a lot of language chauvinism on our end. Just saying there's plenty on theirs too.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Kashi »

Suraj wrote:That's not to say there isn't a lot of language chauvinism on our end. Just saying there's plenty on theirs too.
Very true..recently there have been attempts to close to channels showing programming in Cantonese in the southern provinces of China..they are "strongly encouraging" Cantonese, Haka,Hokien, Minnan speakers to completely switch to Mandarin.

This has not been taken kindly by the speakers of those languages and they are resisting strongly..not that we see much of it in news.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by CRamS »

ShreemanJi, talking about Microsoft CEO, is he toast or not yet? I won't be surprised if he is asked to step down. I don't think he said anything remotely outrageous, but the woman lobby is hanging this guy from a lamppost. Having said that, if he as a CEO does not know elementary politically correct 101 speak in US, he is in for serious trouble. In current US public speak, one never even by implication suggests anything event faintly pejorative on the following: Jews & holocaust, founding fathers (even slave owners like Thomas Jefferson), homosexuals, and women (especially white women). Everybody else is pretty much fair game.
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Post by Shreeman »

Suraj wrote:
Shreeman wrote:While the chinese have indeed "selected" the han and simplified chinese exports to create a uniform chinese-american diaspora, you couldnt be more wrong about dialects. The average chinese vocabulary of even the chinese language symbols in nowhere close to the grasp of devnagri by all indians.
The simple fact is they have only one script, unless you count Manchu or Tibetan, which are separate languages. They may have vastly different dialects that are verbally unintelligible, but two people can make themselves understood by writing something down, provided of course, that both people can understand the characters written. In India, we can grasp verbal similarities even if we can't make sense of written scripts, or see similarities in the scripts.

Since we're primarily referring to choice of language as a written medium, they have an inbuilt advantage in the sense that they can say 'Chinese' and generally mean one thing (simplified Chinese script). However, there remains a distinction between traditional and simplified Chinese scripts. Those who learned one can't necessarily read the other well enough.

This is particularly true of older gen Chinese communities in the US, who are Cantonese and write in traditional letters, but 'Chinese' in US official circles is simplified script. In some cases, they specifically use a different dialect to exclude others from conversation; e.g. I know Taiwanese friends who use Taiwanese instead of Mandarin in restaurants where they don't want Mandarin speaking Mainland waitstaff knowing what they're saying. Therefore, they have plenty of issues with linguistic and script intelligibililty of their own, and more than a little disagreements amongst themselves.

That's not to say there isn't a lot of language chauvinism on our end. Just saying there's plenty on theirs too.
Suraj,

They havent got a script. At least not a conventional one. Think GRE/TOEFL style vocabularies for road side tea vendors. Then add in the differences you noted. So while they can say hi/hello there is no scope for deep spiritual or political discussions between people from far off. If that were allowed.

Language is a huge strength externally -- think entire country talking in one cypher automatically. Verbal or written. No one in the West has that. And the chinese, they are almost sort of have to close ranks and project one spirit in the poresence of any non-chinese for want of an alternative.

Internally, the dominant strength is replacement of god with government. The normal chinese nationalist (and you only need a few million out of the billion plus) soaks in the government prayers deeply. The rest, they may want to escape the repression, but after three four gernerations have certainly no fallback for government -- differentiated from party, though. the party is not irreplaceable.
And not well liked either.

Without religion, there is no morality. No fear of god or fear of loss of 72 raisins or whatever at all. It is a comsumerist culture on steroids (or powder of tiger testicles or something), they are just coming into their own. And will dig, dredge, and destroy anything and everything in sight (recall the eat all the birds campaign?) much faster than your average western company could for its shareholders.

I have studied with, worked with, and taught heaps of chinese. Over two decades and tested everything from language to map skills. Unfortunately. But we are saying the same thing, and this is not the china thread.
Last edited by Shreeman on 14 Oct 2014 08:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

CRamS wrote:ShreemanJi, talking about Microsoft CEO, is he toast or not yet? I won't be surprised if he is asked to step down. I don't think he said anything remotely outrageous, but the woman lobby is hanging this guy from a lamppost. Having said that, if he as a CEO does not know elementary politically correct 101 speak in US, he is in for serious trouble. In current US public speak, one never even by implication suggests anything event faintly pejorative on the following: Jews & holocaust, founding fathers (even slave owners like Thomas Jefferson), homosexuals, and women (especially white women). Everybody else is pretty much fair game.
Microsoft nbeeds stability, there have already been murmers of Satya's defense in the press. He ius not going anywhere for now.

But, there is a wider context. Satya is not Ballmer, and certainly not Gates. As a glorified spokesperson, he should have kept karmic/dharmic thoughts to himself. He got ahead of himself, with both feet firmly in mouth. "You do not have to say anything and anything you say will be takjen in evidence and may harm your defense.." is CEOspeak mantra one.

Microsoft is not what it once was. For example, the chinese have Lenovo and Motorola and will put whatever face they like on it. Satyas tenure will depend on what he does/does not deliver to the faceless masters.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

DK given interview to Arnub yesterday. Saying about her husband and kids being in US etc. Indirectly referred to Dalit identity also. Why her husband is not in India and still in US with her kids. Surely India is not having any problem with that. We hear almost nothing from him. It is as if he does not exist at all. Why is that??? Arnab also did not ask her about the Adarsh Scheme loot allegedly done by her and her father. Strange. Staged interview for TRPs?

The interview seems to be instigated by someone from mafia side to create some issue or another.
One word came to my mind after seeing her interview. Useless lady.
Last edited by hnair on 15 Oct 2014 07:44, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Warning issued. Snide attacks on a serving Indian diplomat is not kosher for this thread
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Arjun »

Yagnasri wrote:DK given interview to Arnub yesterday. Saying about her husband and kids being in US etc. Indirectly referred to Dalit identity also. Why her husband is not in India and still in US with her kids. Surely India is not having any problem with that. We hear almost nothing from him. It is as if he does not exist at all. Why is that??? Arnab also did not ask her about the Adarsh Scheme loot allegedly done by her and her father. Strange. Staged interview for TRPs?

The interview seems to be instigated by someone from mafia side to create some issue or another.
One word came to my mind after seeing her interview. Useless lady.
How is Adarsh relevant to the diplomatic issue between US & India over her maid, or indeed to this thread ??? The fact is the US is in the wrong in this matter - lets not bring in extraneous issues.
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Post by Pratyush »

The question is why is DK speaking to a media channel ?Did she have the approval from the GOI for this interview?

If not then this may cause sufficient ground for her dismissal from service.

Having said so what will that (her dismissal) accomplish in the long run, for both India and the US.
Last edited by hnair on 15 Oct 2014 07:43, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Warning issued: speculative comments on disciplining a serving Indian diplomat is not kosher for this thread:
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by hnair »

Darn straight, Arjun.

Pratyush, Yagnasri et al. Do not bring in random stuff like Smt Khobragade's Dalit background, her dad's alleged scams or her husband to this thread again. This has no impact on Indo-US relations nor to Indian Foreign Service, unlike Shree Bharara's actions
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

Satya as head of much smaller azure cloud services convinced the huge office and windows businesses that cloud not bare metal was the future. He also convinced them to move from one release every 3yrs to yearly and plans are even lesser as cloud deployments demand much faster and agile tech upg feature cycles.

I think for these two miraculous feats he both secured msft future and got the CEO job.

What msft did 3 yrs ago netz is starting now. 10,000 sales ppl were flown to Vegas for a week and told the co would focus only on cloud centric solutions and software and days of standalone hw appliances were over...a tough call fr a co that rode to the top on back of custom hw.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by SBajwa »

How is Adarsh relevant to the diplomatic issue between US & India over her maid, or indeed to this thread ??? The fact is the US is in the wrong in this matter - lets not bring in extraneous issues.
She falsified information on the form to get a maid from India to USA which is PERJURY (felony). Then she did not paid the minimum wage. She needs to know that she cannot break law around the world (she is entitled to break the law due to her "DALIT" status as she (and her father) believe in India only., this right was given to her and her father by Nehruvian Congress. NAMO should get her out of the IFS so that she can unite with her husband and kids (who are US citizens) in USA.

It is because of the quota people like her that Indian diplomacy around the world is so BAD!!! NAMO should fix that!
Last edited by hnair on 14 Oct 2014 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Warning issued. Smt Khobragade's background entitles her certain constitutional privileges bestowed by people of India. You are not going to couche your biases under "NAMO ki jai" or "US laws are supreme"
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion

Post by CRamS »

Guys, I saw the DK interview on TimesNow briefly. First all of all, poor lady, she is a young mom, and her travails and grief came across clearly. Looks like she just wants to rejoin her kids, don't know about her husband though, he seems very quiet. Thats the reason for her interview IMO. For all her bravado, and knowing US pig headedness and arrogance, she knows she is not going to get any justice, and I think she will plea bargain, join her kids, and disappear out of the public domain. Sad, but thats the only ending I see.

SBajwaJi, please, and we have beaten this to death, her misdemeanors could have been dealt with quietly. From a US India relations PoV, its the brutal, undiplomatic treatment meted out to her that maters (we are all DKs in this regard. Such inhuman treatment will never ever be unleashed on a white diplomat, period). And the role NRIs, like that Khalistani scum Preet Barara play in hounding their own, and how Indians bashing Indians is the route to stardom in US (this latter piskololigcal phenomenon needs more expounding by journalists and authors)
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