Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

[Viv S]

Viv S,

Newer acquasitions are typically more munition intensive because your Trainers at Infantry Schools etc would need to be retrained get Instructor Grading all over again. Not to mention that same process would need to be done for a substantial portion of the ATGM Platoons across the IA. As a data metric, to give you an indication the original BDL Milan cost the IA around 5.5 Lacs/Round.

That should apply to all other operators of the missile as well. But the actual missile to launcher ratio for most Spike customers hovers around 10:1.

In the IA's case, even if you assume that it retains 640 trained ATGM teams (two for each launcher), and each team fires two live rounds in training, that still leaves the army with 22 missiles per launcher, a still absurdly high ratio.

And that was for an extravagant example of training (Rs 36 lakh per soldier, more than a pilot). In real life, even the Americans train their troops on simulators because a missile is too expensive to actually expend during training.

[Viv S]

$525 million for 8356 missiles is about $63K each. Say $60,000 per unit. Most Javelin sales in contrast appear to be priced between $150,000 and $200,000 per missile.
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So every infantry battalion will field almost 100 ATGMs on average. Assuming the bulk of the missiles are allocated to western formations, that figure may end up being far higher.

It appears the Javelin is actually about $75K ($125K for CLU). May be around $100K for an export customer. That said, the Spike still delivers better value.

On the other point, its worth noting that even a US Army's Infantry Brigade Combat Team (4,400 strong) is only authorized about 120 ATGMs. Link

[Viv S]

Viv S I think a lot of ATGMs are meant for infantry units to deter chinese armour attacks ?
we hold a little bit of the flat tibet in north sikkim and DBG and thats about it. PLA can bring in very large armour forces over time and resupplied via smooth roads and new railways to deliver crushing blows to infantry units deprived of our own armour support due to terrain.

They can induct plenty into the TAR but how many can they possibly funnel into the flatlands. Beyond a certain formation size, they'll run out of maneuver area (in contrast to the Indo-Pak front). Not to mention, once they run up into heavy resistance from dug-in infantry, they'll likely pull back with their noses bloodied and try something else.

the RPG and carl gustaf are probably also quite ineffective in busting the modern chains of bunkers the TSP have put up everywhere. slogging in for even 50km through such lines of fortifications will need very heavy and sustained fire on fortifications.

True. But its the armour that'll lead the thrust rather than foot mobile infantry. At best, one could make a case for equipping the Guards/Mech Inf with Spike MRs (which would merely replace their MILANs).

(This is where HESH rounds fired from the Arjun's much berated rifled barrel will really count.)

[vaibhav.n]

Viv S,


Hmm...that number does look high. Training is conducted indoors via simulation and outdoors via training rounds, besides firing actual rounds. The army will also need to tabulate SOP's for the weapon systems besides test firings for DGQA and at a Field formation level.

AFAIK, within an Infantry Battalion an ATGM Platoon will have 4 Sections with 2 Missile Posts each. Providing 8 Missile Posts in total with the Support Weapons Coy. This is for each of the 380 plus Infantry Battalions.

In Addition, the Mechanised Infantry and Guards Regiments have their Konkurs ATGM's in a mounted role for their BMP's at the Coy level. These are likely to hold more consumable stores due to their role. This besides pure ATGM Battalions.

What is interesting is that both the Spike MR and LR are man portable and weigh the same. Dont know how this works, but this opens up some very real possibilities because if the now upgraded LR version is selected these could see service in the BMP's too providing commonality.

"The limiting factor in the Spike LR's range is the fibre-optic cable at the aft of the missile," Ran K explained. This fibre-optic guidance enables the operator to guide the missile to a very precise impact point, to retarget it in flight, or to direct it away from an incorrect target, and is referred to as 'fire, observe and update'. "There are not enough pixels in the cable to guarantee a lock-on beyond 4 km. Through new technology, we are now able to increase the number of pixels to extend the range out to 5km and still get a 90% probability of a hit," he added, noting that the improved Spike LR will be going into production next year.

In addition, the Spike LR also comes with the top attack option. All variants of the Spike ATGM feature either a High-Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) or a Penetration/Blast/Fragmentation (PBF) Anti-structure warhead.

[Singha]

given the huge nos being thrown around, by the time production delivers a good number many of our older stock of milan and konkurs will have expired. so we will not have all that much missiles in parallel.

[Cosmo_R]

^Nag will arrive when it does but it is not here NOW. When your house is on fire you reach for the nearest bucket. And why does it matter if Javelin (or Spike) is a crutch? If we are lame, as we undoubtedly are, any stick is a blessing. Kudos to bjp for moving decisively. There is good reason why AJ holds both finance and defence. It was well planned in advance.

"There is good reason why AJ holds both finance and defence. It was well planned in advance."

Exactly and I have said this from day one.

[Philip]

Most of the Russian products were obtained when western products were denied to India and competetive tendering wasn't possible.On addition,there has been greater tech transfer with many of these products like BMos,etc.The MMS regime when out of its way to stroke US def. manufacturers esp. Boeing with the C-17 acquisition.

[Karan M]

given the huge nos being thrown around, by the time production delivers a good number many of our older stock of milan and konkurs will have expired. so we will not have all that much missiles in parallel.

well we can always use them on yellow sea or Eye Bee before they expire, imagine, they fire a bullet, response is a milan or konkurs

[Karan M]

On sea you have less clutter but you also have to deal with anomalous propagation. I read that in transitions to triumph. I think that was the biggest problem trishul had.

you are correct. they used akash trials to solve that issue.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 287183.ece

“Special algorithms/techniques developed by DRDO for overcoming the multiple target reflections coming from the sea worked perfectly in the mission. With this flight trial, he Army accomplishes all the validation trials on the first off production models and the system is being delivered for induction,” he added.

[John]

We have discussed this before. India doesn't have the USs huge supply chain for precision manufactured components in engines or the large production runs there. Our engines will be more expensive. In contrast, we are heavily into propellant manufacture for Pinaka, akash and other programs. Next, Prahaar does not have a seeker, Nirbhay does. That's 40 perc of the missile spend right there. Prahaars USP is not just speed but it's prithvi style non ballistic trajectory which makes it a pain for interception. Against bunkers and the like, BMs are not a good bet. At the end of the day seeker equipped weapons are best for those.

Yes we have to use something for comparison otherwise it is simply one opinion vs another, i don't thin Prahaar will be cheap even though RF seeker/GPS etc yes it might cost less than Nirbhay but i haven't seen any example of 1.5 ton missiles being dirt cheap. Even the cheaply made Iranian 100 km+ missiles they armed Hizb. with cost 300k+ according to Israel.

As for being harder to shot down it is not maneuvering target and it is flying at rather high altitude so should easy to knock it down with any modern SAM compared to a Cruise missile , not a concern with Pakistan but in Chinese theater is different target.

[Karan M]

The point was it will be cheaper than Nirbhay and Brahmos. Not dirt cheap. If it's cheaper than those two and more expensive than a Pinaka it can still be acquired in large sums. When India is acquiring 100k $ missiles for infantry, would double that be too expensive for brigade, or division level arty support that too tasked for deep fire?

For comparisons, context is important sir, otherwise it's mere brochure bashing. Basing costs on American industry without taking into account relative industrial quirks, is hence fraught with errors. We simply don't have their base in engine tech to drive down costs.
As being easy to shoot down because it flies at high altitude, then any aircraft at alt is easy to shoot down, correct? Nor is the Prahaar stated to be high alt only. For max range yes. But aerodynamic manoeuvring controls suggest a variety of profiles including depressed trajectories at trade off of range.

In reality, high speed targets even those fly high. That too which change directions randomly, are very hard to target by GBAD. Even air based systems eg AWACS backed fighters have found it very hard to target high speed, high alt targets eg F15s in ODS against MiG25s until and unless it was a careful, propositioned ambush (IDFAF F15s with Sparrows against Syrian MiG25s).

The best missile system available to Pak is the HQ-9, which they don't have. Let's take this even in the PRC context. It's performance against conventional ballistic missiles is stated to be 7-25 km, which is a very low footprint and shows its limitations as a multipurpose system intended mainly for air breathing targets. A 25 km bubble, which too can be saturated. To defend a large area, many such systems would have to be deployed, not to mention Pk would drop against high speed targets capable of manoeuvre changes. This is not a simple thing. Dedicated missile defences have to be made for this sort of target. The SPADA that Pak fields is even more limited. The few systems acquired would have to be prioritised for high value targets such as AFB, n storage facilities, C and C etc. PRC too cannot deploy 100s of systems for every tactical target and will prioritise. in short, the vast majority of targets will not have any TBMS defence let alone defence against a Prahaar class system, which is what makes it lethal.

]The Pragati missile has quick reaction from command to launch in ripple firing mode of less than five seconds from same launcher. It is capable of carrying various types of conventional warhead of approximately 200 Kg.

The missile system has capability of deployment in stand-alone mode or centralised mode. its effective and intelligent end trajectory maneuvreing, Pragati defeats detection by any weapon locating radar.

Note what they are saying. It can use waypoints to make detection hard and uses end trajectory manoeuvring to defeat WLR guidance, tracking and missile interception in the terminal stage.

Note that DRDL is in a unique position of simultaneous working on both the shield and the spear. The group is making India's BMD (as part of which they have had access to ww developments in the state of the art in current defense tech) AND is working on offensive weapons. In short, they know very well how the average weapons systems in the GBAD arena work and what their limitations are. Prahaar is a repurposed AAD after all.

[Karan M]

That sort of shield and spear USP at DRDO btw where this also so much emphasis on the Nirbhay being as discrete as possible. Not just flying low or a few waypoints. But fwd RCS reduction, and many waypoints, so the missile can either skirt heavily defended zones, all the while presenting its lowest cross section profile and fly low, plus a seeker for terminal guidance, so it can approach a target from multiple zones, not just the obvious ones and still hit its target. The caveat for all this, costing. Many other nations lack this sort of integrative capability. The missile developer is one, the defender another, the radar from a third. In India, we have them all under the same group.

[darshhan]

ToI is reporting that the initial 3,200 Cr deal for the Spike missiles will be followed up with local production for greater numbers which would take the total deal value to 20,000 Cr. So the Spike is not a 'gap-filler', this is a long term deal. RIP Man portable Nag. Really disappointed with the new government's weapons acquisition policy.

Abhik ji, You are speculating when you say " RIP Man portable Nag ". Until unless GOI formally orders DRDO to terminate the Man portable Nag program this will remain speculation. I request you to not indulge in such wild speculations.

Secondly atleast this govt is taking decisions. There is always a chance that some of those decisons may go wrong or some of us may not like certain decisions. But Decisions are being taken. That is itself a huge change over what we have been experiencing for last 10 years.

Remember there is a saying that someone who has not made any mistakes in his life, has probably not done anything in his life.

[andy B]

Bhai log quick question for gurus. Was strolling through tarmak and there is an infographic from Saurav Jha that has details of the big order cleared by CCS. IIRC it also had mention of a additional order of kh35 urans. Is this right if so what are these for just to replace the Delhi class compliment or are we having additional OSAs updating with these puppies. Would love to see all the OSAs converted to use the 250km extended range urans. Alacarte long range harbour delivery Op Python style with a compliment of 16 each!!

[Karan M]

BTW, those 12 Dorniers? Expect upgraded radars (either the latest Elta stuff or the XV-2004) and the new DRDO ESM system mentioned in the AR. Original Dorniers had EL/M-2022 and the Kite ESM suite. These were developed under Project Sangraha.

Now project Samudrika is ready for production across seven different platforms.

Also, the related Varuna ESM system received the "Best EW Proficiency Award" by the Navy in 2013. Why is this important? Because it places it a class ahead of both the existing Ellora on Naval ships and its Israeli equivalent, the C-Pearl. And in what amounts to full scale vindication of the design, 18 Varuna are on order.

[John]

Bhai log quick question for gurus. Was strolling through tarmak and there is an infographic from Saurav Jha that has details of the big order cleared by CCS. IIRC it also had mention of a additional order of kh35 urans. Is this right if so what are these for just to replace the Delhi class compliment or are we having additional OSAs updating with these puppies. Would love to see all the OSAs converted to use the 250km extended range urans. Alacarte long range harbour delivery Op Python style with a compliment of 16 each!!

250 Km extended range Uran is land attack variant i don't think it has found any buyers to fund its development..

[Singha]

the initial lots of Urans purchased for delhi class must have EOLed now, being 20 yrs old.

if at all you want to convert FACs into a land attack hit n run raider, we got to ask Massa for the SLAM-ER which is a small air launched missile but with great range and sensors .... it is not tube launched though. hopefully work is ongoing on a much smaller version of Nirbhay say 1ton with 300km range and 150kg warhead for smaller ships, torpedo tubes, airplanes.....right now the limited AGM142 popeye is the only standoff attack missile we have, and a few KH59.

[Thakur_B]

the initial lots of Urans purchased for delhi class must have EOLed now, being 20 yrs old.

if at all you want to convert FACs into a land attack hit n run raider, we got to ask Massa for the SLAM-ER which is a small air launched missile but with great range and sensors .... it is not tube launched though. hopefully work is ongoing on a much smaller version of Nirbhay say 1ton with 300km range and 150kg warhead for smaller ships, torpedo tubes, airplanes.....right now the limited AGM142 popeye is the only standoff attack missile we have, and a few KH59.

AGM-142 Popeye? we don't operate that. The crystal maze, which is said to be a miniature version of popeye is fairly short ranged at 80-100 Km and has a small warhead as well at 80 kgs. We also operate Delilah-II, although neither of Crystal Maze or Delilah has even been photographed in Indian use. Hell, there isn't even a picture available of Crystal maze anywhere on the web.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/ba ... 262563.ece

India has already bought military equipment like Python air-to-air missiles, Crystal Maze precision guided munitions, Delilah-II air-launched cruise missiles and Gabriel-III anti-ship missiles. Israel is also involved in the upgrade of 125 MiG-21 fighters and the Navy’s Sea Harrier fighters.

^^ At first I thought this article might be mistaken as our purchase of Delilah hasn't been acknowledged, but there are a few other articles around 2007 period that talk of India expressing interest in Delilah and this article confirms that they were purchased.

[John]

What is strange is why aren't replacing Uran in Delhi with Brahmos, you can make a case Tarantul and Kora are too small to carry Brahmos but Delhi was designed to carry Moskit. So accommodating the smaller Brahmos shouldn't be a problem not to mention Brahmos-M is around the corner.

[dinesha]

Agni-II, Prithvi-II and Agni-III, Agni-IV and Agni-V to be test fired between November 9 and December end.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 494952.ece

[Viv S]

Most of the Russian products were obtained when western products were denied to India and competetive tendering wasn't possible.

Only US products were denied in the 90s and earlier. Most Europeans and Israeli products have been available for the last 20 years. And when competitive tendering did take place, how many times did Russian products win out? How many domestic Indian firms have chosen to partner up with the Russians?

On addition,there has been greater tech transfer with many of these products like BMos,etc.

The critical propulsion of the BrahMos is still shipped in from Russia. As for ToT - T-90 armor? T-90 barrel? Invar seekers? Smerch rockets? Sindhukirti refit? That's without going into extortion on everything from tank shells to aircraft carriers.

The MMS regime when out of its way to stroke US def. manufacturers esp. Boeing with the C-17 acquisition.

The C-17 acquisition was requested by the IAF. And had the experience with the IL-76 platform been better it wouldn't have been excluded from Phalcon follow-on and sidelined from the refueler acquisition.

[nash]

Agni-II, Prithvi-II and Agni-III, Agni-IV and Agni-V to be test fired between November 9 and December end.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 494952.ece

belated diwali firework by DRDO/SFC...

[member_23370]

Shouldn't A-II and P-II be replace now. Are these EOL stocks being test fired?

[pankajs]

I would argue that P-II definitely and perhaps A-II too are testbeds for new tech.

[Singha]

Thakur saheb, I think crystal maze is the basic popeye which has a range of 80km per the wiki.
the popeye turbo is featured in the Dolphin class subs and is apparently not even used by IDFAF.
there is no photo of crystal maze as its the popeye only.

http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/332-en/Marketing.aspx
it lists the basic popeye and thats it.

IAF does NOT have any air launched missile beyond popeye/kh59 which is to say we do NOT have what JASSM/KEPD350/Scalp bring to the table. let us not ascribe capabilities we do not yet have to the IAF.

the smaller versions of brahmos and nirbhay have a huge market waiting, or some new missile under development.

[nikhil_p]

I had gone to get my regular dose of pan, when the chaiwallah next to his shop said we will be spending an Agony dwitiya to test our Th - AAD and Fart 2 mijjile.

Also a spinoff mijjile will be checked as CI (WS) system - while spitting out the pan, ak thoo, he said the Shiva weapon resurrected...

[Ranjani Brow]

DRDO is developing a new QR-SAM (born-again Shiva weapon?).

A quick reaction SAM which can track on move is well-advanced in the design stage. (Link)

[Karan M]

>>I had gone to get my regular dose of pan, when the chaiwallah next to his shop said we will be spending an Agony dwitiya to test our Th - AAD and Fart 2 mijjile.

Agni-2 tests will also test THAAD eqvt - AAD and PAD-2 , i.e. PDV

>>Also a spinoff mijjile will be checked as CI (WS) system - while spitting out the pan, ak thoo, he said the Shiva weapon resurrected...

CIWS -> close in weapons system. spinoff missile? hmmm which one..
Shiva weapon resurrected, Trishul.

[nikhil_p]

DRDO is developing a new QR-SAM (born-again Shiva weapon?).

A quick reaction SAM which can track on move is well-advanced in the design stage. (Link)

paanwallah said - this is a complementary system and not in design phase but soon to be tested Spinoff is the buzzword.

[Ranjani Brow]

^Astra SAM?

[nikhil_p]

Why you only thinking SAM he he...

[member_28714]

Why you only thinking SAM he he...

why you only speaketh in riddles?

[Karan M]

Why you only thinking SAM he he...

Astra

[Karan M]

It makes perfect sense BTW.. the MMSR+ Astra could easily fill in the QRSAM category and put paid to that expensive Maitri.

The maximum range of Astra is 110 km in head-on chase and 20 km in tail chase. The missile could be launched from different altitudes - it can cover 110 km when launched from an altitude of 15 km, 44 km when fired from an altitude of eight km and 21 km when the altitude is sea-level . The missile can reportedly undertake 40 g turns close to sea level, when attacking a maneuvering target.[8] It will have an active homing range of 25 km.[

If so, fire on the move is possible. Get cue from MMSR, aim & fire with seeker uncaged & tracking the target at close ranges.

[SaiK]

thumbs up if Astra can get cue from MKI's 400km ranged existing or the new AESA radar, LCA on LPI or stealth mode (radar off) fire Astra from 100km to target and yo-yo to defensive position under the mki-as-awac umbrella.

[Singha]

^^ KaranM that would be curtains for another russian prospect for which money has been cleared yesterday - the Sofna system which is nothing but tunguska platform using a newer missile for the SRSAM thing? fire on the move is its sole claim to fame over other systems like vlmics or spyder that need to remain static.

[srin]

^^ KaranM that would be curtains for another russian prospect for which money has been cleared yesterday - the Sofna system which is nothing but tunguska platform using a newer missile for the SRSAM thing? fire on the move is its sole claim to fame over other systems like vlmics or spyder that need to remain static.

Wait - what Russian system is this ? I didn't read this in any of the news reports.

[vaibhav.n]

One of many for a proposed Gopher replacement for mechanised formations.

Sosna "Pine" AD System

[Ranjani Brow]

Wait - what Russian system is this ? I didn't read this in any of the news reports.

This was reported by Janes:

The Sosna mobile short-range air-defence system will complete its firing trials later this year and production will start for India in 2015, according to Dr Vladimir Slobodchikov, the managing director of technical sciences at Russia's Nudelman Precision Engineering Design Bureau (KBtochmash).

"There is a final series of trials that will happen in October," he told IHS Jane's at the Africa Aerospace and Defence (AAD) show held in Pretoria on 17-21 September.

It uses the same Sosna-R two-stage missile that is used with the company's Palma naval air defence system, which is in service with the Russian and Vietnamese navies.

This had a range of between 1 and 10 km, Slobodchikov said, and carried two warheads, together weighing 7 kg, and two fuzes. The first rod-fragmentation warhead was to destroy proximity targets, while the second fragmentation warhead was for destroying targets on impact.

Each Sosna vehicle had 12 ready-to-fire missiles and could be reloaded in 12 minutes, Slobodchikov said.

The missile is radio-command guided when in its boost phase, after which a laser beam riding guidance system takes over. The optical fire-control system makes the Sosna highly survivable, effective in cluttered environments, and difficult to jam, according to KBtochmash.

Several Sosna vehicles will typically operate together with a command vehicle carrying a surveillance system to designate targets for the other vehicles.

Each vehicle could also use its TV and thermal cameras to scan a sector covering 60° in the horizontal and 20° in the azimuth, Slobodchikov said.

The Sosna also has a passive optical detection capability that provides 360° horizontal coverage and from -5° to 60° in the azimuth.

Slobodchikov declined to detail the system's detection ranges, but said they were adequate to find targets in sufficient time for a missile to be launched so that the target was destroyed when it was still 10 km away. He also said that the Sosna's autonomous optical sensor system could simultaneously track 50 targets and engage one while moving.

http://www.janes.com/article/43460/aad- ... production

[member_20453]

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.be/

As per Prasun, Javelin will still be acquired since it is better optimised for mountain warfare and the deal will come in next year. Hopefully true.