Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Oct 2014 12:13

wig wrote:a brief article on the Midgets submarines that the navy proposes to acquire

The defence ministry today ordered the building of midget submarines, also called “manned torpedoes”, a super-special project to deliver and recover commandos in twos and threes.

Going by the innocuous abbreviation SOB/SDV, which expands to “special operations boats/swimmer delivery vehicle”, the two midget submarines ordered to be built in an Indian shipyard have been approved for an initial cost of Rs 2,000 crore.

The navy projected a need for midget submarines, which weigh less than 150 tonnes, after the 26/11 attacks.

In a typical operation involving midgets, the commandos in it “swim out” of either a larger vessel (a ship or a larger submarine) or a berth at a coast, go underwater to the intended target, attach mines and return to base without giving up their location. Midget submarines are capable only of short-range operations.

The navy’s marine commandos (MARCOS) will be expected to be given the midgets, which are also called “Chariots”.

The decision to order the midgets marks the revival of a nearly 45-year-old project. A few were also acquired and based in Mumbai in 1975, a few years after Pakistan’s navy too acquired midgets from an Italian firm.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1141026/j ... EyZEtnrZjo

L&T had a proposal for different kind of midget submarines.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Oct 2014 12:31

Karan M wrote:Journalist under Govt scanner:
Nitin Gokhale
Ritu Sarin
Muzammil Jaleel
Praveen Swami
Saikat Datta
Rana Ayyub
Manu Pubby
Prabal Dhal Samanta
12:00pm - 23 Oct 14

Lutyens spice run by Saggy Ghose apparently. Why no shekhar Gupta and why Gokhale?blatter is a patriot, former....

If these journos were under scanner the last thing they would do is put out names in open. I doubt these list though some are usual suspect and some missing.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Oct 2014 12:43

One of the reason Scorpene sub got delayed is because they decided to make all in India and all the big small learning they had to do here, So they decided for P-75I class one or two selected sub would be built at the OEM end and rest in India , seems thats not on the card and delay is inherent in such approach

This would be long drawn out affair atleast 5 years till they make any decision.

Realistically I see the fight would be between French Scorpene and Russian Amur the others would be fringe player that GOI can use as bait to bolster its case.

The french would have a good case for Sub standardisation and commonality with fleet while the Russian would argue for Amur as logical successor for Kilo and the thought within IN Sub arm to maintain Subs of East and West.

Would be an interesting competition and a long drawn out one.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 26 Oct 2014 12:59

Thakur_B wrote:L&T had a proposal for different kind of midget submarines.

Look here:

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/02/ ... b-for.html

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Oct 2014 13:03

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:Journalist under Govt scanner:
Nitin Gokhale
Ritu Sarin
Muzammil Jaleel
Praveen Swami
Saikat Datta
Rana Ayyub
Manu Pubby
Prabal Dhal Samanta
12:00pm - 23 Oct 14

Lutyens spice run by Saggy Ghose apparently. Why no shekhar Gupta and why Gokhale?blatter is a patriot, former....
If these journos were under scanner the last thing they would do is put out names in open. I doubt these list though some are usual suspect and some missing.

shekhar gupta and vinod metha are certainly missing from the list

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 26 Oct 2014 13:21

chetak wrote:shekhar gupta and vinod metha are certainly missing from the list

There are 2 types of NewsTraders and OpinionMakers.
1. Those who behave like romans while in rome.
2. Those who behave like Lahaori gandoos irrespective where and which timeline they live.

The above 2 chaps might be former type, while others are later type.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Oct 2014 13:32

the L&T pic looks more like souped up 'chariot' than a proper midget sub. these chariots and marcos gear go into the tube thing shown behind the SMX Ocean conning tower. the Pakis have far bigger midget subs which can actually move around a long way on their own.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Oct 2014 17:40

SDVs and midget subs differ in concept as from their nomenclature.Midget subs can as was shown by the Imperial Japanese Navy in WW2 ,capable of conducting attacks on a naval base (Pearl Harbour),though at Pearl were unsuccessful.The famous incident of a japanese midget sub sunk by the destroyer Ward just before the attack.In fact,recent research indicates that one midget sub actually successfully fired torpedoes at a USN battleship but the faulty settings sawthat the torpedoes did not explode.SDVs,chariots and some special stealth fast vehicles deliver speical forces to their destination along with their munitions and eqpt.JNI has in the past had featurres of some specialist craft used by various navies.Cahriots can come in many designs,most where the special forces sit astride it like on a water scooter.However,as can be seeen from the L&T design,protection of the forces from the elements is now preferred fro SDVs with better stealth."Thunderball" style UW SDVs are also used though many of the designs are classifgied and are never revealed

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 26 Oct 2014 18:42

These will be built at HSL, I will not be surprised if already the work has been started because this news is making rounds for last 3 yrs.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 26 Oct 2014 18:48

chetak wrote: shekhar gupta and vinod metha are certainly missing from the list

Some of the tweets by Lutyensspice are really spicy, if the tweets are genuine. A man has 3 weaknesses one money two woman third land.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 29 Oct 2014 06:03

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:Philip, both L&T and Pipavav have the capacity to build Frigates and are starved of orders... Building a follow-on to P-17 Shivalik class frigates could be farmed out to these two... Private yards can build the superstructure and Hulls, fitment may be done by MDL..? This way we build capability all around
I agree with you ... but wouldn't the cost of future Shivaliks shoot up if built by Pipav and will Russian's give us partially built ships?

If Pipavav builds Shivaliks, how will the cost shoot up? the design is frozen, they are in a JV with MDL, order the engines and other equipment ahead of time unlike previous instances where items were ordered piecemeal...
I never mentioned / hinted Russians providing us partially built ships. I want MDL and Pipavav to work together to build the ships. Hulls by Pipavav and fitment by MDL.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Oct 2014 06:23

Even the fitment can be done by Pipav. All you need is to have govt sourced items dilivered on time. Rather than being ordered 2 years after the ship is launched and 5 dilivered 5 years after her launch. Resulting in 10 year build time.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 29 Oct 2014 06:50

Shrinivasan wrote: I want MDL and Pipavav to work together to build the ships. Hulls by Pipavav and fitment by MDL.

that sounds good , if Pipavav can deliver hulls on schedule than MDL would be pressurized to deliver on schedule too. If you make everything in house than you can give n number of reasons for the delay( at least this is true for public entities ).This arrangement will bring more transparency and also quash the fear and argument that sensitive equipments will be compromised with private hands. Meanwhile, Pipavav , L&T and others can build ships for coast guard and for other navies.

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Oct 2014 10:50

http://www.janes.com/article/45058/euro ... onic-masts

the new indian subs may get this one as well

following up on subs , http://www.janes.com/article/44933/anal ... lins-class

n mid-October Defence Minister David Johnston formally asked Japan to investigate possible assistance with the Future Submarine programme - a request coinciding with a visit to Canberra by a delegation from ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), owner of German submarine builder HDW, which is pressing the case for its developmental 4,000-tonne Type 216. TKMS is on the record as pledging to deliver 12 submarines - the number suggested in the 2009 Defence White Paper - for about AUD20 billion.

Meanwhile, earlier in the month Thales CEO Jean-Bernard Levy said the company would team with French submarine builder DCNS should the Abbott government respond to industry calls for a competitive tender: something that Johnston has declined to be drawn on. Defence sources said DCNS would offer a larger version of its Scorpene design.

Following its full takeover in July of Collins-class designer Kockums, Saab was quick to confirm its own readiness not only to involve Australian engineers and technicians in the construction of its 3,000-tonne A26 submarine, but to design a 4,000-tonne variant specifically for Sea 1000.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Oct 2014 17:54

Mistrals would be smaller and cheaper than the Juan Carlos amphibs,which have an extra deck,but if we intend to build larger sized N-powered carriers,starting with a 65K t IAC-2,perhaps the more practical option,the costs saved used for a more capable carrier which could operate more advanced aircraft than the MIG-29K.The Russians intend using KA-52 heavy attack helos on their amphibs for close support.They could be an option too.

srin · Post by **srin** » 30 Oct 2014 18:34

Philip wrote:Mistrals would be smaller and cheaper than the Juan Carlos amphibs,which have an extra deck,but if we intend to build larger sized N-powered carriers,starting with a 65K t IAC-2,perhaps the more practical option,the costs saved used for a more capable carrier which could operate more advanced aircraft than the MIG-29K.The Russians intend using KA-52 heavy attack helos on their amphibs for close support.They could be an option too.

You really aren't Philip, are you ? Only way to verify: do you believe that the Shornet is a more advanced aircraft than the Mig-29K ?

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 30 Oct 2014 19:44

Details emerge on India's mystery OSS project
by Kerry Herschelmann, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
Link http://www.janes.com/article/45006/deta ... ss-project

The IN's OSS project is being built to a VSDI design at the Ministry of Defence-owned HSL. Source: VSDI

Details are slowly coming to light of the mystery Indian Navy (IN) vessel being built under the secretive Ocean Surveillance Ship (OSS) project at the Ministry of Defence-owned Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL). IHS Jane's understands that the OSS project is managed by the Indian Prime Minister's Office (PMO) in a similar manner to the Arihant nuclear submarine project.

The layout of the ship - a long open deck with space for several tracking antennae aft of the forward superstructure - suggests it could be a ballistic missile tracking ship operated by the IN for the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The project came to light in late 2011 and early 2012 from tenders released by HSL.

Designed to DNV and Indian Register of Shipping (IRS) class rules by Vik Sandvik Design India (VSDI), the vessel, which is known only as Hull VC-11184, has a length of 175.77 m, a beam of 22.7 m, a draft of 6.45 m, and a design displacement of around 14,700 tons. It has a helicopter deck and hangar, as well as a bulbous bow, with a planned complement of 300 including technicians and scientists.

According to HSL and VSDI (which was formerly a part of Wartsila's Ship Design Group, but is now owned by MDL Energy Pvt Ltd), the ship is powered by two 9,000 kW diesel engines driving a single 4.5 m-diameter CPP propeller. A 1,000 kW bow thruster is also fitted. Top speed is 21 kt and range at a cruising speed of 14 kt is 14,000 n miles.

It is understood that Italy's Fincantieri Group may have been awarded the propulsion system integration contract. If so, the propulsion system may be near identical to that installed in the IN's Fincantieri-built Deepak-class fleet tankers, which have similar dimensions.

ANALYSIS
While negotiations for the ship began in 2012, the INR15 billion (USD245 million) contract was only finalised in 2014, according to HSL sources quoted in local media. At the keel-laying ceremony on 30 June 2014, HSL announced that the vessel would be ready by November 2015. According to HSL tender documents, the project is to last 19 months.

However, given HSL's poor track record of delays and an inability to build relatively simple 50 m patrol boats and tugs on time, this seems to be unrealistic. An industry source told IHS Jane's : "Nineteen months is a tough call due to drawings not being approved by class authorities and ready, resulting in equipment procurement delays and other bureaucratic delays."

Aside from that, damage caused by Cyclone Hudhud to HSL facilities, including some damage to the hull steel shop, will almost certainly move the timeline to the right. When completed, the OSS will most likely be used for tracking and monitoring ballistic missile launches for the IN's nascent fleet of ballistic missile submarines as well as those of regional countries. The IN would become the fifth navy after those of China, France, Russia, and the United States to operate such a vessel.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 31 Oct 2014 16:45

A minor incident involving INS Kora and merchant vessel Madelieine Rickmers has been reported approximately 300 NM at sea from Visakhapatnam, wherein INS Kora was scraped by the merchant vessel in the early hours today, 31 Oct 14. INS Kora and INS Gaj were on passage from Visakhapatnam to Port Blair. INS Kora has reported minor damages to her ships’ side. There has been no damage to the watertight integrity of the ship or any injuries/ loss of life.

A Board of Inquiry (BoI) is being constituted by HQENC to investigate into the circumstances leading to the incident.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Oct 2014 17:10

The speed is too slow for an "arsenal ship" layout with numerous VLS modules.Given the large flat deck,it may carry large dish arrays for missile tracking,etc.Good to see a variety of specialised desi built vessels emerging from the woodwork.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Nov 2014 09:25

One comment about accidents involving IN ships is that with the massive expansion there has been some loss of training and safety issues. Efforts to remedy this have been instituted particularly after the Khangress MMS govt found a scapegoat in Adm Joshi.

The court of enquiry will show if there was an error on the part of the Kora and if there was, heads will roll.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Nov 2014 09:34

Euronaval 2014 - exposition DCNS

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1039231.html

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/380 ... iginal.jpg
Model of large non-nuclear submarine of project development DCNS SMX Ocean in the exhibition Euronaval 2014

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/380 ... iginal.jpg
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/380 ... iginal.jpg
Model submarines Scorpene project 2000 and 1000 to develop DCNS Scorpene in the exhibition Euronaval 2014.

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/380 ... iginal.jpg
Model actually multipurpose nuclear submarine of project Barracuda, DCNS built for the French Navy

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Nov 2014 10:10

Can it be used to track deep space objects ?

""When completed, the OSS will most likely be used for tracking and monitoring ballistic missile launches for the IN's nascent fleet of ballistic missile submarines as well as those of regional countries. The IN would become the fifth navy after those of China, France, Russia, and the United States to operate such a vessel.""

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Nov 2014 10:28

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Wang- ... cking_ship

maybe similar to the above ??

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Nov 2014 15:40

3 different "Autonomy Boosting Sections" from DCNS for the Scorpene that can boost submerged endurance to one, two and three weeks:

Major DCNS innovations improve submarine capabilities

10.29.2014 •

At Euronaval 2014, DCNS is unveiling major innovations in three key areas – improved submerged endurance, enhanced surface intelligence gathering, and deployment of unmanned underwater vehicles – to improve the performance and safety of conventional-propulsion submarines. All these new developments illustrate the unique expertise and innovative potential of DCNS teams.

Three technologies to improve submerged endurance

To meet demand from customers for improved submerged endurance of conventional-propulsion submarines (SSKs), DCNS now offers dedicated hull sections known as Autonomy Boosting Sections.

Whereas SSKs typically have a submerged endurance of about three days, DCNS now proposes three new technologies to extend this critical parameter to three weeks.

The first is a hull plug equipped with new-generation high-capacity lithium-ion batteries. Easy to operate, the technology offers high submerged speeds on demand and improved response to power ramp-up and variations. Lithium-ion batteries can also be recharged at sea. The endurance of a Scorpene-type submarine is increased to seven days resulting in a significantly enhanced tactical capability.

The second solution, the Mesma air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, is packaged as a compact dedicated hull section. Mesma’s steam turbine-based technology uses a fuel that is readily available in ports and is ideal for extending an SSK’s endurance at patrol speeds. The sea-proven Mesma system increases the submerged endurance of a Scorpene-type submarine to two weeks.

The third solution, a second-generation fuel-cell AIP, represents a technological breakthrough compared to current-generation AIPs in terms of performance, safety, flexibility and maintenance.

This solution combines several key DCNS innovations in fuel cell technology. Hydrogen is produced from diesel fuel by hydrocarbon reforming as required, overcoming the need to store hydrogen on board the submarine.

This revolutionary technology increases submerged endurance to three weeks; a capability that confers a decisive advantage in certain theatres of operations.

Clicky

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 03 Nov 2014 08:52

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/na ... 559039.ece

Navies of friendly countries keen on Indian sonars
Y. Mallikarjun

India is looking to export indigenously developed hull-mounted sonars and negotiations are at an advanced stage with the navies of three to four friendly nations.

SONAR (an acronym for Sound Navigation and Ranging) is used to detect underwater targets. Like radar, used to detect long-range aerial and other targets, sonars have applications in underwater surveillance, communication and marine navigation.

Three units of these sonars have been exported to Myanmar. Officials from Bharat Electronics Limited and the Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory visited the neighbouring country and installed them a fortnight ago. BEL produced the sonars while the Kochi-based NPOL, a naval lab of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), designed and developed them. BEL had signed the Rs.150-crore contract for the three sonars with Myanmar in January 2013. Director-General of DRDO (Naval Systems and Materials) Bhujanga Rao told The Hindu that there was a demand from other nations too. Naval officials from three to four countries came to India and held discussions. Mentioning different sonars developed for the Navy, he said that a versatile, new-generation system USHUS has been installed on India’s first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine, Arihant. It has a higher range and can withstand high static pressure of water. Observing that it was superior to Russian equivalents and comparable to the best in the world, he said that sonars on all Russian-class submarines being operated by the Indian Navy would be replaced with USHUS.

Another advanced hull-mounted sonar HUMSA-NG (new generation) was also developed and the Navy had placed orders for its installation on different platforms such as destroyers, frigates and corvettes, Dr. Rao said.

A sonar for detecting intruders like divers had been developed for installation at harbour entry points and to protect offshore installations. It will be ready for deployment in a year. Similarly, ship-towed array sonar technology that could detect targets up to 100 km was ready for user-evaluation trials. ABHAY, a compact sonar for fitting on warships of smaller size or shallow watercraft, was currently undergoing technical trials on board INS Ajay, Dr. Rao said.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Nov 2014 08:59

Wow! Once again it shows culturally only the IN seems to have understood the importance of indigenous projects. Great going NPOL and BEL.

Hope we implement a SOSUS type system so that the likes of PNS Khalid are constantly monitored and thier every move from entering berthing to departure from Karachi harbour monitored, similarly every PLAAN sub in Bay of Bengal/ Indian ocean area close to India is monitored continuously.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 03 Nov 2014 09:07

^
We should be cautious in selling sonars to Myanmar as there is a high likelihood that Chinese will have access to them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2014 11:37

One is sure that the export version will be suitably sanitised. The sonar dev. still lacks an important version,TAS,which we plan to import for the IN's warships. ASW warfare must be given etxra priority as the coming decade wills eee a massive increase in the number of subs operating in the IOR,Asia-Pacific.The second PLAN sub cisiting Colombo on the heels of their Def. Sec's visit,where he assured India that SL would not be used as a base for the Chinese,has come as a rude shock. Is the GOSL speaking wiht a forked tongue? f the suib's visit was an earlier agreement,then the least he could've done was to inform his hosts when he was on Indian soil.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Nov 2014 18:10

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 504066.ece

AG Recommends Cancellation of South Korea Deal

“The AG has recommended the cancellation of the deal. And on the basis of his opinion, the deal will be cancelled soon,” said a senior MoD official.

The ministry of the defence has flagged irregularities in the `6,000 crore deal to buy eight mine counter-measure vessels for Indian navy from Kangnam Corporation based in South Korea.

Officials claim that the company had hired middlemen to clinch the deal in favour of the company. In India, legally, hiring of middlemen is not allowed,legally.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Nov 2014 22:21

DRDO AIP for the last two scorpenes is more or less officially confirmed as the french are saying that the Indians would be responsible for it

Refusing to entertain queries on the performance parameters and safety of the DRDO’s phosphoric acid fuel cell AIP, which sources told The Hindu would be ready for trials next February, Philippe Berger, former submariner and submarines operational marketing manager of DCNS, said while the company’s first-generation Mesma AIP, powering Pakistan’s Agosta 90B submarines, offered a dived endurance of two weeks, its advanced fuel cell AIP enhanced it to three weeks. “Without AIP, Scorpenes can stay underwater for four days,” he said. “Our scheme is limited to integrating safely the DRDO-developed AIP plug to the submarine. We are working on designing the hull section in detail for this,” Mr. Berger told Indian journalists at the DCNS facility, which houses the “fully tested operational-scale fuel cell AIP.”

(The correspondent visited France with other Indian journalists at the invite of DCNS)

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 558305.ece

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 03 Nov 2014 22:53

Very interesting and heartening to see the small size sonar ABHAY under trials - for smaller ocean going vessels. This will be key for making any foreign submarine operation in IOR treacherous. To carry this sonar, we need work on a compact design for under 1000~2000 ton stealthy anti submarine+mine boats with high automation + endurance, good incoming missile defense, helicopter landing platform and limited anti ship+air capability.

Now what we need is a 'STRING' of small naval bases doting all around our land mass to support these deployments. This will increase 'Time at Station' and lower 'Time to Station' for small vessels.

Submarine hunting is no child play but copying from Russian Shvkal torpedo 'mutual destruction' strategy >> We might lose a small ship but opponent loses a submarine which is far more painful.

Wish list - 7500 kms coastline and a 100 km range needs 50~100 boats - means cost effectiveness is mandatory - no import content what so ever.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Nov 2014 07:18

i'd say then endurance with drdo-aip should be greater than 3 weeks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Nov 2014 07:29

2 weeks would be enough to creep away slowly at 3 knots along the bottom or approach some objective area. we must accept our 1st effort will not be on par with the best available outside.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Nov 2014 08:29

agupta wrote:
SaiK wrote:i'd say then endurance with drdo-aip should be greater than 3 weeks.
Based on what evidence ? Or more of a "hoping..."?

>>>>>>>>

Thakur_B wrote: ...DCNS, said while the company’s first-generation Mesma AIP, powering Pakistan’s Agosta 90B submarines, offered a dived endurance of two weeks, its advanced fuel cell AIP enhanced it to three weeks.

I'd expect DRDO >= advanced mesma aip
===========
btw, the recent chippanda docking their subs at SL.. I hope IN is monitoring and capturing all info.. track stealth mode, collect signatures.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Nov 2014 10:07

Media reports that the last two Scorpenes will have the DRDO AIP system installed,though DCNS appears to have some doubts about the safety of our untried system.New fuel cell systems without using hydrogen are on the anvil,the French have follow on systems superior to MESMA and other sub manufacturers are also developing newer batteries and fuel cell systems.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 04 Nov 2014 12:39

Personally, I do not think DRDO should be allowed to meddle with badly needed resources. We shouldn't risk long down times because of experimental systems.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 04 Nov 2014 12:45

India, Vietnam negotiate on sale of 4 Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) for the Vietnamese Navy..Any idea what design is being looked at? Perhaps similar to the INS Saryu class being built by GSL?

Seem quite lightly armed with a 76mm Oto Melara main gun and a 2 AK-630 CIWS..no other air-defence, anti-ship or anti-sub weaponry on board..which leads to my question- at 2300 tons, this is very nearly a corvette, so what is the prime driver for such a light weapons load? To increase the patrol endurance by increasing onboard fuel and decreasing weapons carried on board?

And could such an OPV design be modified further and developed into a well armed light frigate/corvette design like the Gowind that DCNS has been so successful with of late?

link

Oct 28 (Reuters) - Talks are gathering pace on the sale of Indian naval patrol vessels to Vietnam, an Indian official said, the first significant military transfer to Hanoi as it improves its defences in the South China Sea where it is embroiled in a territorial dispute with China.

The four patrol ships will be provided to Vietnam under a $100 million defence credit line and represent a push by the nationalist government in New Delhi to counter Beijing's influence in South Asia by deepening ties with old ally Vietnam.

Vietnamese Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung held talks with counterpart Narendra Modi on Tuesday, the first meeting since the Indian leader took office in May, promising to turn the country into an economic and military power.

An Indian government official said negotiations for the patrol craft had gathered pace since the credit line was announced last month during the visit of India's president to Vietnam.

"We expect to see progress on this fairly early as negotiations are continuing between the Vietnamese and our defence suppliers," the government official involved in discussions said.

...

"These OPVs (offshore patrol vessels) are actually dual purpose," said retired army major general P.K. Chakravorty, who served as India's defence attache in Hanoi. "You can use them for anti-piracy operations as well as for military purposes."

And since Pipavav Shipyard Limited was the recepient of the second order for 5 OPVs for the IN which are now in build, I suppose the competition for the Vietnamese order will be between Goa Shipyard Ltd and Pipavav Shipyard Ltd.

Does anyone have any clarity on the OPV design that Pipavav Shipyard Ltd is building for the IN? Same as the Saryu class?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Nov 2014 12:55

JTull wrote:Personally, I do not think DRDO should be allowed to meddle with badly needed resources. We shouldn't risk long down times because of experimental systems.

especially since they have nil exposure and knowledge on the AIP systems and will be just another bunch of govt employees hoping to learn on the job and then strike out to greener pastures.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Nov 2014 16:28

Vietnam's range of operations is far smaller than that of the IN's.So a smaller corvette sized OPV would suffice,provided she can counter any 3-D threats esp. PLAN subs.The small sized sonar would be excellent if they could be used both by ASW helos and the planned ASW corvettes,meant to replace the Pauks.They use the same sonar on the Kamov ASW helos.If the sale of the OPVs to Vietnam are executed on time and at an affordable cost,there may be further orders from other friendly nations.SL is to also get OPVs.Integrating the Vietnamese ones with the IN's fleet would be ideal for cooperative engagement.In fact our OPV designs with increased sensor and armament could be a winner in its class in the global market as our costs would be far cheaper than western built vessels.The designs of the ND could be given to pvt. yards for construction who have the space and capacity,leaving our yards for more sophisticated warship and sub building for the IN.

Here's a detailed report on France's "jumbo-sized" Ocean class sub,displacing more than 4,000t,armed with an assortment of 34 weapons,smart scope/sensors like buoys,UAVs and UUVs,AIP with a blue-water patrol capability,etc.,etc.The cost is said to be half that of a Virginia class SSGN.However,the jury is still out whether it can replace a nuclear sub,but will look attractive for countries like Oz who have operational limitations for N-subs due to a lack of manpower skills.These subs will probably cost as much as an Indian built N-attack sub and may be a bit over the top.Our need is both caopability and numbers to meet the challenge of about 80-100 PLAN and Paki subs.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-thi ... 1652659060

Check into details of this superb Soviet era giant (hovercraft) landing craft,the Zubr class,which China is now going to build at home.The class can carry 3 MBTs plus upto 500 troops and comes with a variety of weapons for shore bombardment and self-defence.Also used by Greece,a NATO member.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-thi ... 1609439614

durairaaj · Post by **durairaaj** » 04 Nov 2014 17:23

At the risk of reaping the wrath of fellow Rakshaks, I am posting this.
I hope the news of DRDO taking the burden of developing an AIP with Phosphric acid fuel cells (PAFC) for scorpene is not true. Because it is impractical to develop AIP for submarines (war fighting) based on PAFC. PAFC is not suitable for mobile application due to its low power density especially, when one include the accessories to make the fuel cells operational. It will occupy valuable space with in a submarine. PA Fuel cells are also less durable if organic membrane separator is used.
Li-ion batteries are the best and then comes the PEMFC. PAFC may be marginally better than the Lead Acid Batteries.
P.S: I am a researcher in fuel cells (+ PEMFC, PAFC, SOFC and electrolyzers) for 12 years.