Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

[krishnan]

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... galore.htm

Bangalore. State-run defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has test flown the upgraded version of Jaguar fighter with latest avionics for re-induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF) after final certification and clearance, an official said.

"The upgrade will enable the 'Darin III' Jaguar to fly in all-weather with air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea capabilities, using latest avionics and multi-mode radar," HAL chairman R.K. Tyagi said in a statement here.

The new version boasts of mission computer, engine and flight instrument system, solid state digital recording system and data recorder, autopilot, radar, global positioning system and radar warning receiver.

"The upgraded aircraft has also modern navigation, electronic warfare and weapon delivery system with latest man-machine interface near the glass cockpit and two multi-function displays and head-up display," Tyagi said.

The company's mission and combat system research centre re-designed the ground attack aircraft spanning its software, hardware and sub-systems while its overhaul division carried the trial modification.

"The maiden test flight was carried under the leadership of Air Vice Marshal Raghunath Nambiar by our flight test centre jointly with the air force's Aircraft System Testing Establishment (ASTE) and the IAF's software development institute here."
IAF is modernising its fleet of 120 Jaguars with higher power engines and autopilots at an estimated cost of Rs.3,013 crore after three decades of service. US Honeywell has already been given the RfP for engine upgrade.

The nuclear capable Anglo-French Jaguars have been stationed at their home base in Ambala in northern India since their induction about 30 years ago.

[JTull]

That's from Nov 2012. Essentially, no news on the re-engine front.

[brar_w]

Completely incorrect
1. First test flight of F-35 -- 2006
2. First test flight of production variant -- 2012 (more importantly this has 5000 hours of tests for just F35. The Chinese haven't crossed 1000 in 2 years for both J20 and J31 combined)
3. Limited rate of production -- 2012 - 2018
4. Full batch production -- 2018

The F-35/JSF was designed from the outset to be a joint program. That adds time. They reached a commonality threshold below which they would not go, as a result even though the three PDR's and CDR's were spread out over years, essentially the earliest reviews could not be completed until a large portion of the other reviews were mature so as to not have to go back and re-adjust in the future. That adds time. Moreover, the USAF and the USMC are expeditionary forces that would be replacing directly, very capable and advanced multi role fighters that they have invested a lot to acquire and develop into strike assets that they currently are. As a result these services demanded capability upfront that was way more than traditional programs such as the F-22 or F-16 demanded from them at induction. The amount of software development and integration of sensors required at Block 3A,I a& F is SO comprehensive partly because the aircrafts being replaced by these inductions are capable of doing a varying set of mission and due to basing and forward deployment (logistical footprint) concerns one cannot slowly develop the multi-role capability without having to retain large portions of legacy aircraft for those missions.

It would be quite astonishing if the J-31 as a program operated under similar constraints. They would most likely do a soft-rollout with basic Air to Air capability and take their good old time to develop it into a multi-role fighter while building numerical strength through acquisition and concurrent production. Much like what the USAF did with the F-22. In my opinion with the J-20 they would tackle the A2AD strike and maritime strike mission while they would look at the J-31 to be the mainstay air-air assets if they do indeed go in for a two 5th gen fighter air-force.

[NRao]

This blurb from DID:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... kis-05852/

DID – PAK-FA/FGFA/T50: India, Russia Cooperate on 5th-Gen Fighter. Will probably become the SU-50. Early read is F-35 class stealth and F-22 class aerial performance, probably slightly less than its cited peers in both areas. SU-30MKI troubles may be affecting India’s willingness to spend the billions of development and acquisition dollars required.

BTW, earlier in the year:

March 15/14: Readiness. India’s Sunday Guardian obtains letters and other documents sent by HAL to its Russian counterparts, pointing to serious maintenance problems with India’s SU-30MKI fleet. Compared with India’s older Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 fleets, whose readiness rates hover near 75%, fully 50% of the SU-30MKIs are considered unfit for operational flying. That’s a strategic-class issue for a country like India, and could provide the missing explanation for reports that India may abandon the joint FGFA/SU-50 5th generation fighter program in order to pay for French Rafale jets.

This isn’t the first time such issues have arisen (q.v. Dec 16/11), and the Russians have general reputation for these kinds of problems. One February 2014 letter from HAL’s Nasik plant reminds the Russians that they’ve been pursuing a critical issue since March 2013, with no reply:

“…multiple cases of repeated failure of Mission Computer-1 and blanking out of Head Up Displays (HUD) and all Multi-Function Displays (MFD) in flight… As the displays blanking off is a serious and critical issue affecting the exploitation of aircraft (it) needs corrective action/remedial measures on priority…”

From a Dec 24/13 letter:

“Due to non-availability of facilities for overhaul of aggregates [aircraft parts], the serviceability of Su-30MKI is slowly decreasing and demand for Aircraft on Ground (AOG) items on the rise…. Huge quantities of unserviceable aggregates [parts] are lying due for overhaul at various bases of IAF…. It appears that Rosboronexport and Irkut Corporation have limited control over other Russian companies [which provide vital parts like engines].”

One reason the MiG-29 fleet is doing better is that India has worked to build infrastructure like local RD-33 engine plants, bypassing the Russians entirely. Russian firms were supposed to set up a SU-30MKI repair-overhaul facility at HAL by December 2013, but that has fallen into a black hole, and so has the posting of aircraft specialists. India itself is often at fault in these scenarios, and indeed they’re reportedly haggling over price – but the specialist support contract reportedly states that they’re to be posted even if price negotiations aren’t finalized. India’s core defense posture demands that they resolve these issues, one way or another. Sources: India’s Sunday Guardian, “Russians go slow, Sukhoi fleet in trouble”.

[NRao]

The Rafale is needed to bring IAF numbers up - that is for sure.

But, if one thinks that the Rafale is sufficient to deter, then that is a totally different story. The 15 year old calculus has changed and is no longer valid.

[NRao]

On a totally different note, I am betting that Russia does not have the stuff to offer that India is looking for. Not a knock.

[Austin]

On a totally different note, I am betting that Russia does not have the stuff to offer that India is looking for. Not a knock.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618

DRDO is involved in over 200 joint projects with the Russians. And how many with the Americans exactly?

[Austin]

Wonder why are disussing Geo-Politics in Military Dhaga .... Better open new thread in Strategic Section and discuss

Pilatus or HAL’s trainer: Parrikar’s first “Make” decision

[deejay]

Wonder why are disussing Geo-Politics in Military Dhaga .... Better open new thread in Strategic Section and discuss

Pilatus or HAL’s trainer: Parrikar’s first “Make” decision

Austin saar, Shukla sa'ab surely dosen't like the IAF much. That article is an awesome rant. And he follows up tomorrow with more.

[member_20317]

Wonder why are disussing Geo-Politics in Military Dhaga .... Better open new thread in Strategic Section and discuss

Pilatus or HAL’s trainer: Parrikar’s first “Make” decision

Because once all the brochure has been read the last argument is look 'Russia-China-Bhai-Bhai-so-Amrikha-India-also-Bhai-Bhai'. And this has been going on right in these thread for last few years. If that is acceptable then this should be too.

[NRao]

Rumor has it that GE and a Euro company are two players in the AMCA engine effort.

[NRao]

IAF has trans-oceanic reach, says Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha

[Karan M]

I know of three joint ventures that the two countries are working on. If there are another 197 more highly classified projects, there's no reason for the number to leak out either.

So basically, you dont know anything beyond those three programs (wherein ample evidence exists for beyond those three, and no, I am not going to waste my time pointing those out, enough details exist on this forum if you look for it) but were busy stating how there are no other projects based on your speculative opinion.

Your claims about those numbers being leaked etc are irrelevant, as they dont cause any security issues.

As far as the military and strategic balance between the two goes, its a zero sum game. Every edge gained by the Chinese through their ties with the Russians that can be implemented against us (which is about most of them), impacts our ties with the Russians.

Funny, that you seem to constantly make excuses for the freebies the Paks get from Khan while of course, the Russians selling stuff to China is a big deal.

Except that your post wasn't limited to expressing 'sincere disgust'. Not considering it included a defence of the Russia - 'Ties with Russia though are strategic and beyond transactionary as they have helped across multiple programs'.

I wasnt defending Russia, but merely pointing out the error in your claim, that it was a transactionary relationship.

That you think it was a defence only goes to show the depth of your Russophobia.

I merely pointed out that you were making categorical statements about topics which you now admit you have no information on, such as the extent of work we do with Russia & somehow, even that was not palatable to you.

My sincere disgust was for your snark & your overall waste of bandwidth with your one line argumentative replies on topic after topic, with the same theme. Yes, we get you don't like Russia. Khan is the greatest. Get on

PS: It would do well for you to realize that ties with Russia are indeed strategic. Your living in denial ("ATV help was transactionary, sure, helping on an Indian nuke platform is transactionary) doesn't help.

Actually your 'request' was more on the lines of ... 'now that I have expressed my opinion on the matter, drop this topic as its off-topic, spamming, trolling, etc etc'.

No, my request was more like "I have seen your spamming in multiple threads, whilst running down the Indo Russian relationship non stop without any attempt to be balanced, and quite frankly, its tiresome, so kindly stop and mess up only one thread as versus trolling across multiple threads".

Understood? You want to constantly harp on the same rubbish, ad nauseum, bring in your loathing of Russia and like of your chosen nation in every topic, then yes, I will speak up. Because you are diverting thread to your pet peeves.

Netiquette really? After that post?

Yes really. You respond with snark & attitude when asked to stop spamming threads, and then you think you don't deserve the same in turn

I'd have been more than happy to drop the line of debate with Austin had you limited your first post to - 'please restrict this Russia versus US versus the rest stuff', without prefacing that with your personal opinion on the issue. Debates don't start out that way but sometimes they do devolve, and mods have step in and draw the line. Clutter ceases, life goes on. If you were actually bothered by what's going on you'd have PM'd the mods and let them handle it, rather than attempting to clean up the thread with expressions of 'sincere disgust'. Alternately, if you think the forum would be better off without me altogether, you can take that point up with the mods as well, who in turn can take a decision to hand out a warning or impose a ban, as they see fit.

I am not in the habit of running to the mods for every issue.

This forum has been run by members practising (for the most) self restraint.

But I would have thought the guidelines on the PAKFA thread were evident, and would make folks see sense. Apparently not. So you expect me to run to the mods and then have them to do what you wont? But you can't be bothered to restrain yourself?

Your method on the other hand is to spam, spam, spam, clutter up every topic with US versus eebil Russia, trot out the standard apologia to justify any and every strategic action by the US that is not in line with Indian interests as excusable, whilst practising entirely different standards when it comes to Russia.

My "personal opinion" is not cluttering up multiple threads. If you didn't want my personal opinion, then you should not have been spamming us non stop with your "personal opinions" about topics such as classified programs which you now admit you have no idea, but were shooting from the hip.

If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute to a discussion beyond "opinion" then it is an issue for those of us, who visit the forum to learn something, as versus getting spammed by VivS incessant OT about how eebil Russia is not good for India.

Thanks for wasting our time, forum bandwidth, and generally abusing our patience.

I suspect your rabid desire to get the last word in will be overwhelming. Meanwhile, I add you to my ignore list as there is little chance you will not stop with your missionary zeal in making every thread into a US versus Russia free for all.

[Viv S]

So basically, you dont know anything beyond those three programs (wherein ample evidence exists for beyond those three, and no, I am not going to waste my time pointing those out, enough details exist on this forum if you look for it) but were busy stating how there are no other projects based on your speculative opinion.

Your claims about those numbers being leaked etc are irrelevant, as they dont cause any security issues.

The entire body of evidence vis a vis the 200 joint projects amounts to one tweet devoid of any detail. So yes, I'm skeptical.

Funny, that you seem to constantly make excuses for the freebies the Paks get from Khan while of course, the Russians selling stuff to China is a big deal.

No excuses. Freebies go against our against our interests and there's no sugar coating that. It is however tapering off and will end as the US campaign in Afghanistan does.

I wasnt defending Russia, but merely pointing out the error in your claim, that it was a transactionary relationship.

That you think it was a defence only goes to show the depth of your Russophobia.

I merely pointed out that you were making categorical statements about topics which you now admit you have no information on, such as the extent of work we do with Russia & somehow, even that was not palatable to you.

Describe it as 'mere pointing out' if you like. It was a willing participation on a topic, that you then asked me to drop.

My sincere disgust was for your snark & your overall waste of bandwidth with your one line argumentative replies on topic after topic, with the same theme. Yes, we get you don't like Russia. Khan is the greatest. Get on

PS: It would do well for you to realize that ties with Russia are indeed strategic. Your living in denial ("ATV help was transactionary, sure, helping on an Indian nuke platform is transactionary) doesn't help.

Here you go again, demanding a topic be dropped while still choosing to express your opinions about it.

P.S: The word I used was consultancy (not 'transactionary') and I used that term to differentiate it from a joint venture. (Its worth was not devalued in that post.)

No, my request was more like "I have seen your spamming in multiple threads, whilst running down the Indo Russian relationship non stop without any attempt to be balanced, and quite frankly, its tiresome, so kindly stop and mess up only one thread as versus trolling across multiple threads".

Understood? You want to constantly harp on the same rubbish, ad nauseum, bring in your loathing of Russia and like of your chosen nation in every topic, then yes, I will speak up. Because you are diverting thread to your pet peeves.

Yes really. You respond with snark & attitude when asked to stop spamming threads, and then you think you don't deserve the same in turn

Your argument would have been credible if you didn't insist on communicating your own views/clarifying the 'reality' vis a vis Russia in same post. If you have issues with 'trolling' report it to the mods.

Feel free to reply in whatever tone you feel I 'deserve'. Just don't pontificate about 'netiquette' while doing it.

I am not in the habit of running to the mods for every issue.

This forum has been run by members practising (for the most) self restraint.

But I would have thought the guidelines on the PAKFA thread were evident, and would make folks see sense. Apparently not. So you expect me to run to the mods and then have them to do what you wont? But you can't be bothered to restrain yourself?

If you wish to a moderate the thread yourself, please get in touch with administration, come back with a mod's tag and take whatever action you feel is necessary thus saving other moderators unnecessary bother.

Your method on the other hand is to spam, spam, spam, clutter up every topic with US versus eebil Russia, trot out the standard apologia to justify any and every strategic action by the US that is not in line with Indian interests as excusable, whilst practising entirely different standards when it comes to Russia.

Spamming, trolling et al come under the purview of the moderators. No lectures, chastisement etc required, simply click on the '!' button.

Thanks for wasting our time, forum bandwidth, and generally abusing our patience.

Using the royal pronoun here?

I suspect your rabid desire to get the last word in will be overwhelming. Meanwhile, I add you to my ignore list as there is little chance you will not stop with your missionary zeal in making every thread into a US versus Russia free for all.

I'd have apologized for the hurt/discomfort/anger/disgust caused, but it seems you could have saved yourself all that by using the ignore button right away. Years ago in fact. Anyway, more power to you.

[Thakur_B]

Rumor has it that GE and a Euro company are two players in the AMCA engine effort.

Euros had already expressed their desire to collaborate on AMCA engine project last Aero India itself.

[NRao]

Rumor has it that GE and a Euro company are two players in the AMCA engine effort.

Euros had already expressed their desire to collaborate on AMCA engine project last Aero India itself.

EuroJet?

I was not aware of it.

Thanks.

Do you know if it was an engine other than the Kaveri?

[Victor]

Wonder why are disussing Geo-Politics in Military Dhaga .... Better open new thread in Strategic Section and discuss

Pilatus or HAL’s trainer: Parrikar’s first “Make” decision

These responses to the hack job by Shukla say it all IMO:

GS Nijjar said...
Ajay today there is no choice if we wan't our training schedule to be kept on track without any comprises.

HTT-40 has been in the planning schedule ever since 1994, when i was Commanding the Basic School, but it never came up to to the ASR

Anonymous said...
The HT-40 is a paper plane not the Pilatus ! Has HAL delivered on the IJT project ? Has HAL delivered on the LCA project ? It first needs to complete FOC on the Tejas before opening its big mouth.
21 November 2014 10:39

Ram Bharadwaj said...
HAL's credibility in not all that great. The HAL HPT-32 has had a tragic saga with 19 lives lost. The situation became so bad that IAF abandoned the entire fleet putting the entire training program for cadets in jeopardy. HAL had suggested to deploy a giant parachute in HPT-32 so that when engine failed mid-air, the parachute can bring the aircraft down safely.

The IJT (HJT-36) is another program which is heading nowhere.

How can IAF rely on HAL for developing HTT-40 from scratch?? If HAL had the gumption it should have designed HTT-40 on its own budget decades ago as a replacement to HPT-32. There is complete lack of strategic vision in IAF and HAL and MOD.

Let's hope Parrikar does the right thing and okays the Pilatus buy. He should lean on HAL to prove it's mojo with the LCA, LCA2 and AMCA instead of a stupid little basic trainer.

[Thakur_B]

Euros had already expressed their desire to collaborate on AMCA engine project last Aero India itself.

EuroJet?

I was not aware of it.

Thanks.

Do you know if it was an engine other than the Kaveri?

I don't remember exactly, it was on a PDF on AI 2013 site on EJ presentation.

[Vipul]

India likely to order 106 more Pilatus aircraft to train pilots.

India is likely to go in for 106 more Swiss Pilatus PC-7 basic trainer aircraft (BTA), the bulk of which will be produced domestically, to help train rookie IAF pilots in a project worth around Rs 7,000 crore.

This comes after defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics' attempt to develop its own BTA called HTT-40 failed to pass muster with the defence ministry. First, it would have been much more expensive than the Pilatus BTA already being inducted by IAF. Second, it would have not met the timelines specified long ago.

So, the defence acquisitions council (DAC) is slated to consider the case for 106 additional Pilatus at the meeting to be chaired by Manohar Parrikar on Saturday, say sources.

One option is to buy 38 Pilatus off-the-shelf, with the rest 68 being produced by the 5 Base Repair Depot (BRD) of IAF at Sulur. Other options could include importing only 10 BTA, with 96 being made in India.
Pilatus aircraft to train pilots.

It was in September 2009 that the DAC had approved the urgent purchase of 75 BTA from the global market, while 106 BTA were to be made in India to meet the overall requirement for 181 such planes. Finally, after a global competition, India inked the Rs 2,896 crore deal for 75 Pilatus BTA in May 2012. IAF has inducted 53 of them till now.

IAF had then also strongly objected to HAL's push for its still-to-developed HTT-40 on the ground that two types of BTA would be both "illogical" and "exorbitant" in terms of duplication in spares, maintenance, infrastructure and the like.

It's a no-brainer that fighter pilots have to be properly trained to handle highly-demanding supersonic jets that necessarily have to undertake inherently dangerous combat maneuvres. Similar is true for helicopter and aircraft pilots.

"Human error (aircrew)" has been the reason for over 39% of the around 1,100 crashes recorded by IAF since 1970. The other equally big killer is "technical defects" caused by ageing machines and shoddy maintenance.

Indian Air Force pilots march past a Pilatus PC-7 aircraft during an induction ceremony at the Indian Air Force Academy at Dundigal, near Hyderabad, on May 31, 2013. (Getty Images file photo)

It took India 20 years to ink the first contract for 66 twin-seat Hawk advanced jet trainers (AJTs) in March 2004 — now used to train pilots in the intricacies of combat flying — despite losing hundreds of fighters and pilots in crashes. Another 57 Hawks were then ordered in July 2010, taking the total project cost to around Rs 16,000 crore,

The induction of Pilatus, in turn, was urgent since IAF training schedules for raw cadets had gone haywire after the entire fleet of the 114 old piston-engine HPT-32 aircraft, which long served as the BTA, was grounded in August 2009 after a crash killed the pilot.

The intermediate training for fighter pilots between the Pilatus and Hawk stages, however, still remains a big problem. HAL is yet to deliver on its Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT) despite a delay of 15 years.

[Viv S]

Let's hope Parrikar does the right thing and okays the Pilatus buy. He should lean on HAL to prove it's mojo with the LCA, LCA2 and AMCA instead of a stupid little basic trainer.

According to Air Vice Marshal V.R. Chaudhuri, deputy commandant AFA Dundigal, “The training syllabus has been increased to 55 hours per trainee from the earlier 25 hours. The solo content has also increased to 14 sorties from only one sortie earlier. This amounts to the task of approximately 1,200 hours per month, making it approximately 60-70 sorties per day on PC-7 MK-II aircraft.” The IAF is looking at an utilisation rate of 300 flying hours per year per aircraft. The PC-7 MK-II has a design life of 10,000 hours and 30,000 landings per aircraft. (link)

______________


Instead of flying just 300 hours a year and conserving its air-frame to last 30 years (averaging 50 min per day), if the IAF were increase its utilization rate (say.. double it to two sorties/day), it could comfortably forestall the immediate need for more trainers. That would be more than enough time for HAL to deliver an aircraft that meets all of the IAF's requirements.

[Cain Marko]

Wonder why are disussing Geo-Politics in Military Dhaga .... Better open new thread in Strategic Section and discuss

Pilatus or HAL’s trainer: Parrikar’s first “Make” decision

Some folks have gone nuts with their desire to "bring US and India closer". This means running down the Russians at every opportunity whereas ignoring the albatross in the room, the freaking freebies to TSP from Pak and the US desire to play equal equal.

Its bloody irritating to open thread after thread and see a handful of posters just regurgitate the same stuff (US this, Russia that) in thread after thread. Every thread from the PAK FA one to this to Naval to others has the same.

Well it is bound to happen Saar, is a bit like watching worldcup, everybody gets involved, what with Putin and Obama both visiting lagataar.
NRao = US
Philip = Russia

Team US is gaining a bit on BR with stiff support from VivS. where is Sanku Maharaj OR Shankar?

[Viv S]

Now you made my spill my tea laughing. Not cool CMji, not cool.

(P.S. also all the military cooperation pacts being signed left and right. Guess one gets caught up in the fever.)

[srin]

Wonder why are disussing Geo-Politics in Military Dhaga .... Better open new thread in Strategic Section and discuss

Pilatus or HAL’s trainer: Parrikar’s first “Make” decision

These responses to the hack job by Shukla say it all IMO:

GS Nijjar said...
Ajay today there is no choice if we wan't our training schedule to be kept on track without any comprises.

HTT-40 has been in the planning schedule ever since 1994, when i was Commanding the Basic School, but it never came up to to the ASR

Anonymous said...
The HT-40 is a paper plane not the Pilatus ! Has HAL delivered on the IJT project ? Has HAL delivered on the LCA project ? It first needs to complete FOC on the Tejas before opening its big mouth.
21 November 2014 10:39

Ram Bharadwaj said...
HAL's credibility in not all that great. The HAL HPT-32 has had a tragic saga with 19 lives lost. The situation became so bad that IAF abandoned the entire fleet putting the entire training program for cadets in jeopardy. HAL had suggested to deploy a giant parachute in HPT-32 so that when engine failed mid-air, the parachute can bring the aircraft down safely.

The IJT (HJT-36) is another program which is heading nowhere.

How can IAF rely on HAL for developing HTT-40 from scratch?? If HAL had the gumption it should have designed HTT-40 on its own budget decades ago as a replacement to HPT-32. There is complete lack of strategic vision in IAF and HAL and MOD.

Let's hope Parrikar does the right thing and okays the Pilatus buy. He should lean on HAL to prove it's mojo with the LCA, LCA2 and AMCA instead of a stupid little basic trainer.

I partly agree. IAF needs trainers now and HTT-40 isn't ready. And then we don't know what problems it will have - IJT being case in point. This is also a perfect project for a non-HAL commercial entity to take it up, not just the assembly but also local manufacturing.

It is also absolutely critical for HAL to learn to do R&D even IAF doesn't buy it. Just as it was quite a big jump for IAF trainee pilots to go from Kirans to Mig-21 (in the pre-Hawk era), it is same for HAL's young designers: to go from nothing to Tejas or even FGFA.

Just keep these two projects independent and well-funded and all will be good.

[Sagar G]

I partly agree. IAF needs trainers now and HTT-40 isn't ready. And then we don't know what problems it will have - IJT being case in point. This is also a perfect project for a non-HAL commercial entity to take it up, not just the assembly but also local manufacturing.

It is also absolutely critical for HAL to learn to do R&D even IAF doesn't buy it. Just as it was quite a big jump for IAF trainee pilots to go from Kirans to Mig-21 (in the pre-Hawk era), it is same for HAL's young designers: to go from nothing to Tejas or even FGFA.

Just keep these two projects independent and well-funded and all will be good.

LeL "commercial entity", which "commercial entity" are you talking about TATA, L&T ??? The huge engineering capability of such "commercial entity" only exists in khayali pulao of some half literate BRFites high on their own koolaid. The level of hand holding that is done for these "commercial entities" to come up with an indigenous project will only make you drop your jaw in shock. The amount spent by pvt. companies on R&D is laughable and practically non existent as said by DRDO chief. If you think otherwise then point out to me a single product made by these "commercial entities" which puts them on the world map.

People asking for HAL to take up on a project on it's own without getting a go ahead from IAF have no idea how the sarkari system works. First of all HAL is still basically a production agency. The auditors will be breathing down the neck of the persons who gave a go ahead to a project without IAF's approval and IAF has given no reason regarding it's failure of giving a ASQR to HAL a decade or so back when it knew very well that HPT-32 isn't exactly a merc. They gave one at the very fag end and post the tragic crash saw an opportunity to import and hence started jumping regarding urgent requirement and the inevitable doomsday if furreign trainers are not brought. If you read, then HAL had proposed new trainer aircraft projects wayback in the 80's itself so what stopped IAF from going ahead with those. If the design proposed wasn't upto the mark did the IAF try to sit down with HAL engineers and come up with a design which would have been safe and acceptable to IAF ??? For two decades IAF sat on it's ass while HAL along with the IAF did jugaad as much as possible to fix an outdated design. All this has been pointed out before and nobody has been able to give any reasonable reply to these questions except than playing the usual emotional card of dying rookies so as to hide their own illiteracy regarding the issue. HAL isn't blemish less but so isn't IAF.

[Thakur_B]

Parrikar has not okayed Pilatus order.
https://twitter.com/thaparvishal/status ... 9989470208

[member_26622]

Joke Mode On

Better to check which country's watch the 'officials' are wearing before expecting them to sign up on Desi HAL goodies

Joke Mode Off

[srai]

...
Let's hope Parrikar does the right thing and okays the Pilatus buy. He should lean on HAL to prove it's mojo with the LCA, LCA2 and AMCA instead of a stupid little basic trainer.

HTT-40 was only approved in 2009. That too HAL is funding the development mostly on its own. How are they supposed to develop it that fast? Current 75 PC-7 MK-II is sufficient for fulfilling training requirements for now. Indigenization begins with simple tech stuff.

[srin]

I partly agree. IAF needs trainers now and HTT-40 isn't ready. And then we don't know what problems it will have - IJT being case in point. This is also a perfect project for a non-HAL commercial entity to take it up, not just the assembly but also local manufacturing.

It is also absolutely critical for HAL to learn to do R&D even IAF doesn't buy it. Just as it was quite a big jump for IAF trainee pilots to go from Kirans to Mig-21 (in the pre-Hawk era), it is same for HAL's young designers: to go from nothing to Tejas or even FGFA.

Just keep these two projects independent and well-funded and all will be good.

LeL "commercial entity", which "commercial entity" are you talking about TATA, L&T ??? The huge engineering capability of such "commercial entity" only exists in khayali pulao of some half literate BRFites high on their own koolaid. The level of hand holding that is done for these "commercial entities" to come up with an indigenous project will only make you drop your jaw in shock. The amount spent by pvt. companies on R&D is laughable and practically non existent as said by DRDO chief. If you think otherwise then point out to me a single product made by these "commercial entities" which puts them on the world map.

Who said anything about R&D here ? If you want to buy a 100 of these aircraft, then volumes justify manufacturing here. And if you can justify that, then there are private entities who can do it. Sure they will have to invest in CnC machines and all that, but it is one step higher that Tatas making Sikorsky cabins.

People asking for HAL to take up on a project on it's own without getting a go ahead from IAF have no idea how the sarkari system works. First of all HAL is still basically a production agency. The auditors will be breathing down the neck of the persons who gave a go ahead to a project without IAF's approval and IAF has given no reason regarding it's failure of giving a ASQR to HAL a decade or so back when it knew very well that HPT-32 isn't exactly a merc. They gave one at the very fag end and post the tragic crash saw an opportunity to import and hence started jumping regarding urgent requirement and the inevitable doomsday if furreign trainers are not brought. If you read, then HAL had proposed new trainer aircraft projects wayback in the 80's itself so what stopped IAF from going ahead with those. If the design proposed wasn't upto the mark did the IAF try to sit down with HAL engineers and come up with a design which would have been safe and acceptable to IAF ??? For two decades IAF sat on it's ass while HAL along with the IAF did jugaad as much as possible to fix an outdated design. All this has been pointed out before and nobody has been able to give any reasonable reply to these questions except than playing the usual emotional card of dying rookies so as to hide their own illiteracy regarding the issue. HAL isn't blemish less but so isn't IAF.

For all the rant, you haven't addressed the main thing: is the HTT-40 ready now ? No. When will it be ready ? Don't know. The Ajai Shukla article says 2015. Maybe the first flight. Maybe it takes 3 more years to do IOC. Can IAF defer the acquisition so long ? I don't know. HAL has done a fantastic thing by designing this even without IAF orders. More power to them. But as long as it hasn't even taken the first flight - it is still a paper plane. And sadly that's the situation.

Btw, I don't know if I'm the BRFite you think is high on koolaid, but I request you keep the discussion civil.

[Sagar G]

Who said anything about R&D here ? If you want to buy a 100 of these aircraft, then volumes justify manufacturing here. And if you can justify that, then there are private entities who can do it. Sure they will have to invest in CnC machines and all that, but it is one step higher that Tatas making Sikorsky cabins.

You are interested in buying only and not creating a strong MIC which stands on a strong R&D base which will only happen when IAF chooses to stick around with indigenous programme instead of dissing them. Making Sikorsky cabin only brings in manufacture to blueprint capability which we have lot of in our PSU's already. What manufacturing furreign designs will never bring is the "know why" which only happens when you invest in R&D. So your plan of creating a manufacturing base in pvt. industry is only emulating the PSU model in pvt. sector which ultimately yields nothing in terms of technological achievement.

For all the rant, you haven't addressed the main thing: is the HTT-40 ready now ? No. When will it be ready ? Don't know. The Ajai Shukla article says 2015. Maybe the first flight. Maybe it takes 3 more years to do IOC. Can IAF defer the acquisition so long ? I don't know. HAL has done a fantastic thing by designing this even without IAF orders. More power to them. But as long as it hasn't even taken the first flight - it is still a paper plane. And sadly that's the situation.

This uvvacha finds it's place among the various posts of IAF apologists who put up a "You Don't Say" comment to defend the shortcomings of that organization. It is out there for everybody to see that HTT-40 is still in the hardware production stage, why do I have to specifically mention that it isn't flying when everybody knows it is yet to take it's first flight. One can also use this "paper plane" concept to diss each and every indigenous programmes like AMCA, UCAV, HALE, Mk.2 etc. which all are still "paper plane" so hey why fund a "paper plane" when you can carry a soap opera and also give it a fancy name. Makes so much sense no !!!!

Calling my post a "rant" itself shows your ignorance about the issue which has been debated umpteen times. Many posters including moi have posted articles after articles even by ex IAF pilots who have tried to make sense that why IAF kept up with the HPT-32 when it could have easily went ahead and asked for a new trainer project. Nobody was stopping them from asking for it even HAL itself was proposing new trainer projects to them which IAF cold shouldered. Nobody including ex IAF guys were able to provide any satisfactory answer to that and I am sure no one ever will.

So go ahead get yourself a bit educated about the issue before you pass judgement.

Btw, I don't know if I'm the BRFite you think is high on koolaid, but I request you keep the discussion civil.

drink the kool-aid

[Victor]

Parrikar has not okayed Pilatus order.
https://twitter.com/thaparvishal/status ... 9989470208

Misleading. He has deferred the order pending request for more information. Same was done to Tata-Airbus Avro replacement proposal. The pointers are very good though: he has approved 814 pieces of 155/52 artillery and a new RFP is being sent out to both private and public firms who can either present their own products or tie up with a foreign entity with the intent to buy a certain number off the shelf and make the rest in India. This is the way to go. But I'm confused about the Tata, OFB and Kalyani guns that were supposed to be undergoing trials.

Regarding the Pilatus, I hope DAC okays the buy. IAF shouldn't be hobbled with two basic trainers and certainly should not have to wait until the mythical HTT-40 arrives (like the IJT arrived after HAL haughtily called it a "simple" project). If HAL/ADA are producing a 4.5 gen fighter like LCA/LCA2 and even working on a 5 gen AMCA, what is the need for them to fiddle about wasting time and money with a relatively simple basic trainer? Conversely, if they need to move forward iteratively on the development cycle, why move backwards from a sophisticated fighter to a basic trainer? I'm very skeptical of their motives. If they could suddenly pull the HTT-40 out of a hat with such speed "with their own money" (yeah, riiiight ) and without an IAF order, why did they not do that before the Deepaks started falling out of the sky? And given the urgency of the need and the demonstrably horrible track record of HAL/ADA, what should one expect the IAF to do? Dismissing the past losses of trainees and future trainees lives as "playing the emotional card" is utterly callous and truly despicable.

All the folks who heap blame on the IAF border on calling the IAF a traitorous and corrupt outfit even when it is among the most disciplined entities in India with layers of oversight compared to HAL with all its political patronage and lack of accountability and performance over five decades. Do these people even understand the danger of this line of thought? Are they sure that they are mouthing off for India's best interest or the enemy's? Who does such bakwaas eventually help? By no means am I giving the IAF a clean chit but some introspection is in order from "rakshaks".

[member_23694]

http://www.oneindia.com/india/will-parr ... 68990.html

Sources within HAL said that the Avro replacement programme is a ‘tailor-made opportunity' for the Company. "We feel that it should come to us on a nomination basis. If that is ruled out, then we should be allowed to compete. We need to play the role of a leader with our expertise and take Indian private companies along as partners," an HAL official said. HAL feels that the Company can help build a robust aerospace eco system by partnering with private industry. "We have a separate facility in Kanpur (Transport Aircraft Division) which has been developed for manufacturing Avros and later for Dorniers. Proven facilities and available skill should be put to use for aerospace projects. Those against HAL are saying that our order book is full," the official said. HAL Chairman R K Tyagi refused to comment and didn't reply to email queries sent by OneIndia.

What is this 'tailor-made opportunity'. Does it imply that HAL will make for the country a brand new Avro replacement aircraft indigenously and save a lot of forex etc with the 'Proven facilities and available skill' . Or does it imply setting up a new assembly line with some foreign vendor hand holding and at the end of the year send dividend cheque to the MOD with all the photo op.
What has been missing for IJT ? Facility / Skill / Opportunity
HAL wants to compete in all tender and then 'Company can help build a robust aerospace eco system by partnering with private industry'.
Can we have Tejas Mk.1 followed by Mk.2 ASAP with the desired technology and quality level . Bring it on and HAL will have a minimum 200 Tejas order. Could they please focus on RIGHT priorities.

[Victor]

^ Right on. HAL is grasping at straws and with nationalist business-minded leaders in charge who will not accept BS, they are rightfully scared of losing their relevance. Good riddance. Can't come soon enough.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP> The huge engineering capability of such "commercial entity" only exists in khayali pulao of some half literate BRFites high on their own kool-aid. <SNIP>

You repeat that language next time and you're looking at a warning.

[rohitvats]

To everyone on this thread and other military topics - desist from bringing geo-politic related discussions on military threads. Unless absolutely necessary. There are enough threads to carry discuss the Russians and Americans and Martians. Mind it.

[Karan M]

Thank goodness. This idiocy of US versus Russia versus this versus that on every freaking thread thanks to a handful of posters is getting beyond control.
No matter how much these chaps are asked, they wont stop spamming and are completely brazen about their agenda.

Meanwhile, this is heartening news.
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... rement-goa

How do you propose to find funds for procurement?

I am going to ask the three chiefs, or four for that matter (pointing to a senior coast guard official) to prioritise their needs and then we can move forward. That is where your skill in planning comes into picture. A bullet may be procured in three months, a rocket in six months, but a fighter plane will probably take you a year or two years. We must plan accordingly.

I see it as a dilemma I faced with Goa Medical College. We buy a lot of equipment for the college but the problem starts when AMC (annual maintenance contract) kicks in. You get a very sophisticated ventilator and don't have a company maintenance contractor for it and they start breaking down after a year and remain unoperational for want of some small part. You can't do that with a gun, or a fighter plane.

That was the problem with the Sukhoi-30MKI when it was ejecting the pilots on its own. I think that has been sorted out. If I have an iPad, I can't get it serviced and am forced to buy another, but I can't replace Rs 400-cr equipment. The problem has been shifting the goal post after the tendering; you can't do that. There is also this problem, sometimes when you select an L1, the L2 who has lost out starts lobby against, digging for dirt on the L1. All these aspects have to be considered and the best solution is to ask the company to manufacture in India

This guy is serious & has already figured out the key aspects of the current set up. Maintenance of the Su-30s is on his agenda, as is getting the services to work together and prioritize, plus make sure procurement happens in a timely fashion without pointless delays.

The services are going to see a sea change in capability and support from the MOD.

[Sagar G]

<SNIP> The huge engineering capability of such "commercial entity" only exists in khayali pulao of some half literate BRFites high on their own kool-aid. <SNIP>

You repeat that language next time and you're looking at a warning.

Yeah I point out idiotic posts of a few spammers and for that I get the warning, good moderating only

[rohitvats]

You repeat that language next time and you're looking at a warning.

Yeah I point out idiotic posts of a few spammers and for that I get the warning, good moderating only

If you consider using the language which you did same as 'innocently' pointing out 'idiotic' posts, then you've much to learn about forum decorum. The caution stands - don't use such language; the report post button is there for a purpose.

[rohitvats]

MODERATOR NOTE: Thread cleaned up. Going on, don't spam this or other military threads with geo-strategic news and discussions. There are threads for the same. Further, NO F-35 related discussion on this thread unless news and content is especially about F-35 and India. I'm opening a F-35 thread - please contribute there whatever you feel like about F-35.

Remember, transgression in terms of content and language will invite warnings.

[Sagar G]

If you consider using the language which you did same as 'innocently' pointing out 'idiotic' posts, then you've much to learn about forum decorum. The caution stands - don't use such language; the report post button is there for a purpose.

Not starting a debate but I have tried the report post button and was surprised by the kid glove treatment meted out to habitual spammers hence my loss of trust on that button. Anyways you are the mod so whatever you say is right hence "Yes Boss" onlee.

[NRao]

desist from bringing geo-politic related discussions on military threads. Unless absolutely necessary. There are enough threads

I do not think those threads cover (adequately?) topics such as this thread. But I digress.

Moving along:

Why India shouldn't be concerned about Chinese J-31 Fighter Aircraft

Interesting take.