Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

[Viv S]

I happened to run across the Wiki page for the Sa'ar 5 class corvette. 1 Phalanx, 8 Harpoon, 64 Barak I, 6 torpedo tubes, MF-STAR AESA, hull-mounted sonar, towed sonar and a hangar for a helicopter. Admittedly, it doesn't have a gun or anti-sub rocket system, and is equipped with only a light helicopter, but otherwise it compares well with the far larger Kamorta class. Perhaps even with the Talwar class. All while displacing a mere 1200 tons.

Check its speed & range. That is where the compromises are. It does not have to transit long distances.

Wikipedia puts it at 33 knots and 6,500km respectively. Both pretty decent figures and comparable to ships with a larger tonnage.

[Singha]

its ability on long missions will be limited by small crew and living quarters, as the ability to take a pounding in heavy seas and forge ahead...damage control as well......there is a reason I think the americans prefer to build large hulls not necessarily filled to the gunwales like the spruance class was 9000t ... room for any future weapons or upg is also limited.

1 phalanx is very limited against a determined attack...one really needs minimum 2 and preferably 4 ciws guns. one helicopter is again very limited.
barak1 is useful only as a self defence weapon and cannot defend ships of the fleet.

imo the Saar 5 design is neither powerful enough to defend a task force, has no use for its ASW weapons (since when did hezbollah have a SSK), weak in helicopers (SF/anti FAC is a must have) and overly equipped with barak1. a kind of muddled design with no good use case.

a better MOD would be
- 3 CIWS guns to shred FACs
- 16 small ASM like ESSM in surface to surface mode
- 16 Barak1
- 2 NH90 sized helicopters armed with TT, guns and ASMs
- room for a marine commandos housing, chariots, zodiac boats
- high freq mine avoidance sonar / frogmen detection
- two powerful 127mm guns fore and aft to pound fortifications on the shore
- launch / recovery of a unmanned stealth boat/submersible off the tail to scout out interesting places
- a rotary drone UAV in lieu of one of the helicopters like firescout.

this is also probably the kind of gunboat we need to police the island chains in the indian ocean.

[tsarkar]

Check its speed & range. That is where the compromises are. It does not have to transit long distances.

Wikipedia puts it at 33 knots and 6,500km respectively. Both pretty decent figures and comparable to ships with a larger tonnage.

Not 3500nm/6500km at 33 knots. That ship has one gas turbine and one diesel engine. The 3500 nm range is achieved at less than 10 knots speed. Also, not carrying a helicopter & full load. Also, it does not carry a full weapons load at all times.

Given that Israel's conflict areas are next door, fuel capacity is minimal. In contrast, Indian ships have to transit quite a distance from Karwar/Mumbai to Karachi.

No aviation fuel is carried for helicopter. Also, extremely top heavy. Its good for Israel's requirements, though. But not a good ship, and not good for anything else.

[member_26622]

Most of the cost in building ships in 'Indian' shipyards is into missiles/radars and propulsion. Actual tonnage is not a big driver, though impacts operational cost (fuel + manpower). So small is not necessarily significantly less expensive for the same offensive/defensive package and 'Made In India'.

I really prefer Kamorta class ships over these smallish ships, big+stealthy means it can accommodate lots of future upgrades. What we need are lots and lots of these though for sanitizing large swaths of shoreline. A creative and low cost solution is needed (zero 'import or royalty' is obvious).

Wish list >> We should be exploring small stealthy remote or unmanned vessels with hull mounted and depth sonar + offensive package supported by Kamorta class mothership in my opinion. That will increase coverage and reduce risks far better. Innovation is called upon here.

[Viv S]

Not 3500nm/6500km at 33 knots. That ship has one gas turbine and one diesel engine. The 3500 nm range is achieved at less than 10 knots speed. Also, not carrying a helicopter & full load. Also, it does not carry a full weapons load at all times.

None of them do 6500km at 30 knots plus. The Talwar for example does 2600km at 32 knots and 7800km at just 14 knots according to Wikipedia.

The Sa'ar 5 does 3500nm at a very respectable 17 knots. Helicopter shouldn't make much of difference to range. Same for the load, it'll ride lower at full load, but so will most larger corvettes and frigates, who'll all face similar reduction in ranges.

Given that Israel's conflict areas are next door, fuel capacity is minimal. In contrast, Indian ships have to transit quite a distance from Karwar/Mumbai to Karachi.

Israel's core naval interests may be local but the Sa'ar certainly has the range to go much further.

No aviation fuel is carried for helicopter. Also, extremely top heavy. Its good for Israel's requirements, though. But not a good ship, and not good for anything else.

It definitely carries aviation fuel. And it is top-heavy yes, but given its sensor fit and warload (8 SSMs + 16/64 Barak I/II), its clearly designed to do much more than merely patrolling Israeli's EEZ.

[Viv S]

1 phalanx is very limited against a determined attack...one really needs minimum 2 and preferably 4 ciws guns. one helicopter is again very limited.

True, but then again for $1 billion you could buy nearly four of them and set up overlapping fields of fire. That's a substantial number of SSMs, SAMs and helicopters.

barak1 is useful only as a self defence weapon and cannot defend ships of the fleet.

It can be equipped with the Barak 8 as well. So, you could have a combination of eight Barak 8s and 32 Barak Is.

[John]

True, but then again for $1 billion you could buy nearly four of them and set up overlapping fields of fire. That's a substantial number of SSMs, SAMs and helicopters.

Not sure where you get 250 million figure even back in 90s each SAAR cost over 260 million (true cost is unknown to this day). Current cost of SAAR without armament is quoted by Israeli media at 400 million.

[Viv S]

Not sure where you get 250 million figure even back in 90s each SAAR cost over 260 million (true cost is unknown to this day). Current cost of SAAR without armament is quoted by Israeli media at 400 million.

Fair enough. Didn't realise my figures were long outdated. That puts a different spin on it, I suppose. Its got the firepower of a frigate but costs almost as much as well.

Its a pity we never tried a joint venture on corvettes/frigates with them, given how much Israeli kit we already have integrated. I suppose German subsidies and/or US aid skew the economics too much.

[Rahul M]

Viv, Israel is actually looking for a corvette/frigate class platform with emphasis on ASW as the next iteration of the Sa'ar series of combatants. they have looked at the US LCS but backtracked due to cost. german option, MEKO IIRC still hasnt got the go ahead.

if someone in delhi has their eyes & ears open they should make a presentation to the israelis pitching the P28 as basis for that requirement. it's a modern platform that can accommodate whatever weapon system they want to integrate and is designed to ace the ASW game to boot. it also gives them a chance to prove their strategic commitment to better relation with India.

[Singha]

I would propose for our own IOR littorals use "Goonda class gunboat"

Empty wt: 2500 tons
propulsion: CODAD plus electric motor for silent low speed drifting
max speed: 25 knots
range: 10,000km at 15 knots
Accent on high degree of acoustic, radar and thermal stealth
towed broadband passive sonar, active bow sonar, flank sonar ssn style
high frequency mine hunting/avoidance sonar
long range thermal sensors on mast
1 x UUV for underwater recce and minefield mapping
4 x HWT with 1 reload each.
16 x barak1 block amidships for anti-ASM defence
1 x 127mm gun fore with capability of guided shells upto 80km range
1 x 127mm gun aft
2 x AK630 for defences against missiles and FACs
2 x S70 ASW helis
1 x rotary UAV
BEL 3D search radar
bay in back for marcos rigid hull boats, jetboats, SDV, gear
quarters for a squad of upto 40 marcos
8 UVLS in the front for a mix of Klub ASW missile, Brahmos or Nirbhay depending on role.

[Rahul M]

2 helos for a corvette would be overkill and would eat up valuable real estate. same with with two 127 mm guns !

other than that, the P28 is a good template to build upon a class of capable multi-role light frigates that can sanitise our areas of interest from a wide spectrum of undesirables, from pirates to subs and surface ships.

Singha [ my bad I edited your post instead of quoting it in my reply]
pls do not go by weight or naming that can be adjusted up or down. I have gone for long endurance, low footprint, economy of operation(diesels), a floating base for recce/marcos ops, gunnery support for SF units at land and sea, comprehensive ASW cover in the form of helis and sonars and electric motor.

the SAM fit is austere. the 8 heavy VL tubes could be left empty for cost/usecase reason or filled with mainly land attack missiles or ASMs if so needed.

[John]

Viv, Israel is actually looking for a corvette/frigate class platform with emphasis on ASW as the next iteration of the Sa'ar series of combatants. they have looked at the US LCS but backtracked due to cost. german option, MEKO IIRC still hasnt got the go ahead.

if someone in delhi has their eyes & ears open they should make a presentation to the israelis pitching the P28 as basis for that requirement. it's a modern platform that can accommodate whatever weapon system they want to integrate and is designed to ace the ASW game to boot. it also gives them a chance to prove their strategic commitment to better relation with India.

With Israel they are pretty much under the political pressure of US lobbyists and i doubt they are not gonna let multi billion dollar contract escape their grasp, IMO MEKO or let alone Indian P-28 variant for Israeli navy is highly unlikely. Most likely they will have to buy LCS even if it doesn't meet their requirements but it will heavily subsidized by US tax payers.

[Philip]

The Israelis would be better off with a multi-role design of around 2000/2500t which can be rapidly reconfigured in any crisis switching from ASW to ASuW,etc.Our NOPV hulls have much extra potential and would be more cost effective than the P-28 which is supposed to be rather expensive. The big Q is the endurance/range of the proposed vessels.Will they be used in blue water ops in the Arabian Sea,or remain confined mainly to Meditt.,waters.TAS in addition to hull/bow sonars a med. sized ASW helo,AS TTs ,SR naval anti-missile SAMs/CIWS,a DP main gun and upto 8 SSMs should suffice.In fact such a design would be very useful for the IN too based upon our NOPV hulls.We need many more surface warfare ships of std. corvette size (the P-28 is even larger than a Leander class FF!) to cover the increasing amt. of maritime area that the IN needs to sanitise.

[jcrocks]

Hi, I was trying to check the ciidefence website for a specific seminar on naval systems area and felt the link I tried consists of a fairly outdated information.

http://www.ciidefence.com/eventsarchive.asp?id=5

Just wondering if someone can help me with a better link or better website that provides latest information on upcoming events.

Not sure where in BR should I post this query. If I am trying at the wrong place, regret the inconvenience.

[tsarkar]

True, but then again for $1 billion you could buy nearly four of them and set up overlapping fields of fire. That's a substantial number of SSMs, SAMs and helicopters.

If your intent is to state that a ship crammed with missiles and deficient in other areas is the best ship in the world, then unfortunately that is not how the real world thinks or works.

Firstly, the numbers on speed/range are not correct. Secondly, IN DND has visited the ship and so have others, and none are impressed. The shipbuilder is US, and neither USN nor any other Navy is interested in buying that ship. And no, the reason is not because super secret Israeli tech that cant be shared, reason is the compromises that ship makes.

Indian ships firstly focus on seakeeping. I was on INS Delhi during a South China Sea typhoon. The Koreans said they never ventured out during typhoons. Earlier we used to think Korean & Japanese navies were TFTA, then realized SDREs sailed through typhoons and refueled in them, with band playing to keep up morale.

Anyways, ships are a balanced mix of sensors, fuel, engines & other factors.

If you think weapons density is cool, then enjoy this

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... ntul14.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-juPNa24F47s/T ... 717285.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EeQH6pRxomA/T ... dayvir.jpg

No 455 ton ship in the world carries 16 SSMs or a radar as powerful as Positiv. Idea was to let them loose inside Karachi and take out the entire fleet in a knockout punch. The powerful radar was to enable air & missile defence during ingress & exit. And it can outrun any torpedo.

http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/ra ... ive-radars

[abhik]

BTW why did the IN go with heavy torpedoes on its serface fleet(varunastra). If am not wrong the USN makes do with light weight ones. I suppose the main target here are enemy subs which shouldn't take a huge amount of explosives to sink.

[Singha]

it not the explosives its the range and reattack capability.

our naval ships cannot count on remotely anywhere near the amt of SSN support(with HWT) the USN can.

[Viv S]

If your intent is to state that a ship crammed with missiles and deficient in other areas is the best ship in the world, then unfortunately that is not how the real world thinks or works.

No comment as to the 'best ship in the world' or Israeli 'coolness' for that matter. My post was primarily to solicit informed commentary from the forum as to the various aspects of the Sa'ar 5 design.

Firstly, the numbers on speed/range are not correct.

What are the correct numbers and could you please provide sources for the same?

Secondly, IN DND has visited the ship and so have others, and none are impressed. The shipbuilder is US, and neither USN nor any other Navy is interested in buying that ship. And no, the reason is not because super secret Israeli tech that cant be shared, reason is the compromises that ship makes.

The shipbuilder is US because the ships were at least partially financed by US military aid. The USN hasn't never operated any corvettes.

Indian ships firstly focus on seakeeping.

How does that square with our purchase of the Tarantul class? Pretty top heavy as such things go.

If you think weapons density is cool, then enjoy this
.
.
No 455 ton ship in the world carries 16 SSMs or a radar as powerful as Positiv. Idea was to let them loose inside Karachi and take out the entire fleet in a knockout punch. The powerful radar was to enable air & missile defence during ingress & exit. And it can outrun any torpedo.

RSN Victory Class (<600 tons). Now refitted with a 16 cell Barak SAM complement.

[Singha]

the tarantuls look packed from outside but are actually surprisingly roomy inside...i have been inside a former east german tarantul. the ship is quite wide for its short length.

[shaun]

No 455 ton ship in the world carries 16 SSMs or a radar as powerful as Positiv. Idea was to let them loose inside Karachi and take out the entire fleet in a knockout punch. The powerful radar was to enable air & missile defence during ingress & exit. And it can outrun any torpedo.

http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/ra ... ive-radars

Sir ,the Abhay class corvette too uses Positiv-E , but the ship have no weapon to compliment this radar.Something is missing, would love to know more from you the true capability of Positiv-E other than its air and surface search mode.

[Thakur_B]

BTW why did the IN go with heavy torpedoes on its serface fleet(varunastra).

Not just Varunastra, Takshak and Shakti thermal torpedos as well. So much overlap in Indian heavy weight torpedos.

[anmol]

India’s Joint Andaman and Nicobar Command is a Failed Experiment
BY ANIT MUKHERJEE

In October 2001, with much fanfare, India announced the creation of a joint command
in the Andaman and Nicobar island chain, which dominates the western approach to
the Malacca strait. From the perspective of jointness and from what was originally
envisaged by its architects, the Andaman and Nicobar Command (ANC) has turned out
to be a failed experiment. However, this episode sheds light on the Indian military, its
higher defense management and also provides insights about India’s Look East policy
and its military engagements and capabilities in the South China Sea.

India’s model of civil-military relations leaves operational and organizational matters
almost entirely to the military. The ANC was India’s firstjoint command, but the
individual services were opposed to the idea as they feared a loss of power and a
cutback on senior officer billets. They did everything they could to prevent this
experiment from succeeding. This was done mainly by denying service assets to the
ANC. The only major assets it gained in its 13 years of service were an amphibious
landing ship, INS Kesari, and a naval offshore patrol vehicle, INS Saryu, a few fast attack
boats and some Dornier aircraft. Other problems included a bitter inter-service dispute
over land and a failure to agree upon a common military code. The peculiar system of
rotation of the command among the three services resulted in a rapid turnover in the
post of the commander-in-chief, Andaman and Nicobar command (CINCAN), with 12 of
them appointed since 2001, averaging a little over a year in command. To better
appreciate these difficulties, one has to analyze the motivation of individual services.

Due to its maritime imperative the Indian Navy has historically claimed ownership of
the island chain and until 2001 all military units stationed there functioned under a
naval commander. In 2001, in an act of magnanimity, the Indian Navy willingly offered
this post for the joint command "experiment." The leadership at that time believed
that the success of this initiative would lead to otherjoint operational commands. But,
over time, the Navy came to see this decision as a mistake as no more joint commands
were formed. According to reports the navy is currently lobbying the government to
revert this command back to them. While denying assets to the ANC, the Indian navy
has strengthened Eastern Naval Command (ENC), based in Visakhapatnam, which has
emerged as India’s most important naval command. Indeed, the strategic dimensions
of India's Look East policy-in terms of visits and exercises of the Indian Navy in the
South China Sea-are conducted by elements from the ENC instead of the
geographically proximate ANC.

The Indian Air Force was initially enthusiastic about the ANC and went about enlarging
its bases on the islands. After the 2004 tsunami which devastated Car Nicobar air base, leading to the loss of 116 air force personnel and their families, their enthusiasm
waned. The air force has since discarded plans to permanently base aircraft on the
islands and has currently designated Kalaikunda air force station, more than 1000
kilometers away on the Indian mainland, to provide air cover. The impracticality of
this arrangement is seemingly lost on defense planners. The army has little role to
play and few platforms to deploy on the islands. Notably, it has added only a
Territorial Battalion to the ANC while building up an amphibious brigade capability in
Thiruvananthapuram on the mainland.

The Andaman and Nicobar Joint Command therefore has been a “grand failure" in
terms of what was envisaged by its architects. Not only has it failed to usher in more
joint commands, but the experience might be cited by those within the military
community who are opposed to this idea. Among former Commanders in Chief of the
ANC the common refrain was that the experience represented not only a missed
opportunity but an overall “sad story." Significantly, civilians have played no role in
either building up the ANC or pushing for more joint commands. In fact, as noted by a
report of the standing committee on defense, civilians did not even fill up mandated
posts in the ANC, including a diplomatic post, as “no one wanted to go there."

This is not to say that no capabilities have been built up on the islands. In terms of
infrastructure development, there has been some steady progress. A naval air base
was established at Campbell Bay and runway extensions planned for another naval
base at Shibpur. There are plans to build Operational Turn Round (OTR) bases at
Campbell Bay, Dighpur and Kamorta while facilities at Port Blair, including a second
floating dock, are being upgraded. These initiatives, though welcome, do not address
the lack of assets under the ANC. The current CINCAN, Vice Admiral PK Chatterjee,
recently stated that the ANC needs “Command and Control Ships and submarines...we
require an entire fleet."

The failure of the ANC also reflects on the ongoing debate about India’s ties to
broader East Asia. Some analysts argue that ANC will continue to suffer from neglect
unless a considered, and strategically significant, decision is taken to economically
develop the island chain. Currently, only 7% of the land, spread over 570 islands, is
available for revenue purposes as the rest consists of protected forests and water
bodies. There are no international flights to Port Blair, thereby constraining tourism.
Environmental concerns, including protection of indigenous tribes, therefore have
trumped economic development due to which the islands, despite obtaining 30% of
India’s total Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), depend upon the central government for
its fiscal outlays. One of the big ideas that could transform the region has been
debated for a while-the creation of a transhipment hub at Car Nicobar. If
implemented this can be a strategic game changer, as it could rival the ports of
Singapore and Colombo and give India enormous economic and strategic leverage.
Naturally, such an investment will need to be protected and so ANC will be
strengthened, giving it the capability to dominate the sea lanes of the Indo-Pacific. On
the other hand, some in India oppose such a vision not just on environmental grounds
but also argue that having a low military footprint in the Andaman and Nicobar islands
is diplomatically advantageous so that other countries in Southeast Asia do not feel
threatened. Resolving this debate will offer some clues to the outlines of the Indian
counter-reaction to China’s foray into the Indian Ocean and more assertive stance in
the South China Sea.

[member_26622]

Since the discussion started off with ASW ship - which will be used to sanitize coastlines, no point in having BIG anti ship or anti air weapon complement.

What we need is a way for having one vessel sanitize a wide swath of shoreline. Sonar - whichever kind have limited range and so do torpedoes/missiles. Helicopters are expensive to buy and operate, plus cannot be on station for too long - using helicopters for detection is a bad solution but need them as back up or replenishment platform.

A small, stealthy, fast, networked, high endurance with low or zero crew filled up with powerful sonar package, magnetic anomaly detector and anti sub weapons is needed. Something which can venture in to risky waters and sanitize it.

Basically a sub captain should get no 'medals' for sinking one but cannot escape detection either. Combine with a fast ASW helicopter from a larger ship or land base and we have now inverted the risk-reward equation heavily in our favor.

[Aditya G]

...No 455 ton ship in the world carries 16 SSMs or a radar as powerful as Positiv. I...

Is that Lynx U2 above the Grapun FCS. What is its function?

[shaun]

...No 455 ton ship in the world carries 16 SSMs or a radar as powerful as Positiv. I...

Is that Lynx U2 above the Grapun FCS. What is its function?

Lynx , fire control radar for AK-630 , Grapun for guiding AShMs.

[tsarkar]

Viv,

I'm the source. And US LCS is their corvette and they didn't use the Sa'ar 5 design. And no, Veer class corvettes are NOT top heavy, despite your attempt at equal=equal.

Shaun,
The OTO 76/62 and AK-176 are excellent anti aircraft & anti missile weapons, when coupled with the right sensors like Positiv radar, being able to shoot down subsonic missiles. OTO 76 is the CIWS on INS Vikrant with LRSAM as the first line of defence.

Lynx - manufactured by BEL guides OTO & AK-630 on Prabal missile boats and INS Brahmaputra & Godavari

[Viv S]

Viv,

I'm the source. And US LCS is their corvette and they didn't use the Sa'ar 5 design. And no, Veer class corvettes are NOT top heavy, despite your attempt at equal=equal.

Everything on the net puts the Sa'ar 5's cruise speed at 17 knots.

For example, the Sa’ar 5-class multipurpose missile corvette — three of them were built at Litton’s Ingalls shipyard in Pascagoula, Miss. — is one of the best designs of a small surface combatant today. These $260 million corvettes have a maximum speed of 33 knots. Their range is about 3,500 nautical miles at 17 knots.

https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/bd6 ... Small.aspx

Performance Max Speed: 33 knots (gas), 20 knots (diesel)
Cruising Speed: 17 knots
Range at Cruising Speed: 3500 NM

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -specs.htm

[Philip]

Incidentally JDQ on a report said that the P-28 Kamorta's speed is 30kts,as against the stated speed of 25kts,which in truth seems to be too slow for an ASW corvette meant to chase subs many of which who have an underwater speed of 20+ kts.

[Pratyush]

It will be instructive to read up on ASW tactics before commenting on the speed of the ship and its relationship with SUB hunting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare

[shaun]

Shaun,
The OTO 76/62 and AK-176 are excellent anti aircraft & anti missile weapons, when coupled with the right sensors like Positiv radar, being able to shoot down subsonic missiles. OTO 76 is the CIWS on INS Vikrant with LRSAM as the first line of defence.

Lynx - manufactured by BEL guides OTO & AK-630 on Prabal missile boats and INS Brahmaputra & Godavari

Thank you Sir for the reply ,
here is what i have found about "Cross Dome"
1. MR-352 Operates in E/F Band for Air/Surface Search. http://www.soldf.com/download/freebooks ... ystems.pdf
http://www.harpoondatabases.com/encyclo ... y1403.aspx
2.


http://www.rusarmy.com/pvo/pvo_vmf/rls_pozitiv-e.html

Bit confused about the Bands that it operating on , Can you please clarify .

[SNaik]

5P26 (MR-352) Pozitiv works in E band, was produced by NPO Kvant in Kiev (Ukraine).
Modernized version 5P26M1 Pozitiv-M1 and Pozitiv-M1.2 is currently produced in OAO Taifun in Kaluga (Russia).
http://www.typhoon-jsc.ru/index.php/pro ... zitiv-me12
Another E band shipborn radar is 5P27M Furke currently produced by OAO VNIIRT in Moscow (Russia).

Pozitiv-M1 and Furke are competing designs, the later has been adopted only on Russian 20380 corvettes and has been reported as highly unsuccesful.

[Philip]

Chinese naval bases planned at Walvis Bay (Namibia) and in the IOR,etc.Ck the link for the map.It includes Sri Lanka,Pak,Burma,Maldives,etc.

NEWS - NATIONAL | 2014-11-19
Chinese naval base for Walvis Bay

By Adam Hartman
STRATEGY ... Walvis Bay is set to be part of China's overseas military bases.
DISCUSSIONS are under way at the 'highest levels' regarding plans by the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy to build a base at Walvis Bay in the next 10 years.

According to reports in the Chinese media, Walvis Bay will be one of 18 naval bases that will be established in various regions: Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Mynanmar in the northern Indian Ocean; Djibouti, Yemen, Oman, Kenya, Tanzania and Mozambique in the western Indian Ocean; and Seychelles and Madagascar in the central South Indian Ocean.

“These three strategic lines will further enhance China's effectiveness in taking responsibility for maintaining the safety of international maritime routes thereby maintaining regional and world stability,” the media reports said.

Other naval bases are: Chongjin Port (North Korea), Moresby Port (Papua New Guinea), Sihanoukville Port (Cambodia), Koh Lanta Port (Thailand) Sittwe Port (Myanmar), Dhaka Port (Bangladesh), Gwadar Port (Pakistan), Hambantota Port (Sri Lanka), Maldives, Seychelles, Djibouti Port (Djibouti),

Lagos Port (Nigeria), Mombasa Port (Kenya), Dar es Salaam Port (Tanzania) and Luanda Port (Angola).

Ministry of Defence spokesperson Lieutenant-Colonel Monica Sheya confirmed these reports to The Namibian yesterday, saying that once a decision is made, the ministry will inform the nation.

“We have read about it. I believe it is being discussed at the higher levels, but that's all I can say now. Once a decision has been made, we will be sure to inform the nation about it, but we cannot say more yet,” Sheya said.

China plans to build replenishment, berthing and maintenance bases in foreign countries through mutually beneficial and friendly consultations. Furthermore, the reports state that the Chinese navy will not establish “US-style” military bases, yet it will not exclude the establishment of a number of so-called 'Overseas Strategic Support Bases' in accordance with prevailing international rules.

China has several major infrastructure development and resource extraction interests in Namibia. It also has a satellite tracking station near Swakopmund.

The decision for strengthening China's national armed forces in line with the country's international standing to meet the needs of its security and development interests, was taken at the Chinese Communist Party congress.

China's navy boasts of a personnel strength of 255 000 servicemen and women, including 10 000 marines and 26 000 naval air force personnel. It is the second largest navy in the world in terms of tonnage, behind only the United States Navy, and has the largest number of major combatants of any navy.

Page 1 - See more at: http://www.namibian.com.na/indexx.php?i ... yO75Q.dpuf

[deejay]

^^^ The above news is a surprise w.r.t the Namibians. I know that we maintained at least (most probably more) a presence of IAF personnel in Namibia and we had good friendly ties. Namibia leaning the Chinese way looks like a loss.

[member_28840]

Other naval bases are: Chongjin Port (North Korea), Moresby Port (Papua New Guinea), Sihanoukville Port (Cambodia), Koh Lanta Port (Thailand) Sittwe Port (Myanmar), Dhaka Port (Bangladesh), Gwadar Port (Pakistan), Hambantota Port (Sri Lanka), Maldives, Seychelles, Djibouti Port (Djibouti),

Lagos Port (Nigeria), Mombasa Port (Kenya), Dar es Salaam Port (Tanzania) and Luanda Port (Angola).

it doesn't paint a pretty picture. we are being completely encircled in our own backyard!!
I just hope NaMo speeds up the security quadrilateral and moves it to the next stage by negotiating a mutual defense pact.

[member_26622]

^ Lost cause and Inevitable in my opinion so no point in resisting or boiling over.

China is throwing a billion plus dollars building these port infrastructure which we cannot match up. In fact we don't seem to be investing enough in our own port infrastructure to begin. It's more of a way to access these markets for Chinese goods rather than defense.

On the plus side - it's better for us if we ever decide to export to these countries. So let's stop cribbing and focus on building our 'Made in India' export engine. Better off strengthening home defense rather than worrying about neighborhood given our limited means.

[member_23370]

None of those ports will host chinese warships. India needs ships and basing in SCS irrespective of how big our fleet is in IOR.

[Philip]

China has shown them to be its future "naval bases".A most clear statement of intent. The Maldives and SL should be gently but firmly told that any presence of foreign warships,aircraft,mil. personnel etc.,on its territory would be construed as an act of war against India and that India would be open to resort to any means to safeguard its interests. A gift by PM Modi to these leaders about the Cuban crisis would be a thoughtful reminder!

[Philip]

Interesting details of Russia's new IL-38N MPAs.The IN operates 5 upgraded IL-38SDs.The N version,"Novella",is to equip 28 Russian aircraft. A host of new eqpt. including radar gives a "4 times" greater search capability.One aircraft can now cover 4 times as much area than before.32 targets can be tracked simultaneously,both above and below water,approx 100km range for airborne targets,300+ km for sea targets and 35kkm for periscopes which are 1sqM echoing area. IL-38s are ideal for the "low and slow" prosecution of maritime targets esp. subs,as jet aircraft aren't ideal flying at lower alts. and require special kits when launcjhng ASW torpedoes.

Naval intelligence network launch tomorrow
Rajat Pandit,TNN | Nov 22, 2014,
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 237364.cms

A major achievement.
After the deployment of the network, it will be much easier for the Navy and the Coast Guard to intercept a fishing boat like Kuber, which was used by terrorists to reach Mumbai and unleash havoc during the 26/11 strikes.
.

NEW DELHI: India is looking to tie-up with as many as 24 countries for exchange of merchant shipping data, even as its naval intelligence network to track ships in real time has now finally become a reality six years after the 26/11 terror strikes.

The outreach to the 24 countries, spread from Africa's east coast to well beyond the Malacca Strait, is being led by national security adviser Ajit Doval. Though this will take time to fructify, the Modi government is now all set to give the final nod to the national maritime domain awareness (NMDA) project to bolster multi-agency coordination and augment ongoing efforts to strengthen maritime and coastal security.

The overall endeavour is to enable the country to keep track of both conventional and unconventional threats in its primary area of geopolitical interest across the Indian Ocean Region and "neutralize" them if required.

A major step towards this will be the inauguration of the central hub of National Command Control Communication Intelligence (NC3I) network, which can track 30,000-40,000 ships on a daily basis, by defence minister Manohar Parrikar at Gurgaon on Sunday.

Taking feeds and inputs from multiple sources ranging from coastal radars to satellites, the Information Management and Analysis Centre (IMAC) at Gurgaon will fuse, correlate and analyse them to assess threats at sea.

"It's very easy to guard land borders through fencing, electronic devices and pickets. But at sea, there is no such luxury. The NC3I network will alert us to unusual or suspicious movements and activities at sea," said assistant chief of naval staff (communications, space & network-centric operations) Rear Admiral KK Pandey on Friday.

"The bigger plan is to go for the NMDA project, which is now awaiting clearance from the Cabinet committee on security. The NC3I will be the heart or backbone of the NMDA project," he added.
Chief of naval staff Admiral RK Dhowan.

While Navy and Coast Guard are behind the NC3I network, the NMDA project will bring all stakeholders — the several Union ministries dealing with maritime affairs as well as coastal states and Union Territories — on the same grid.

It will then be much easier to intercept a fishing boat like Kuber, which was used by Ajmal Kasab and nine other terrorists to reach Mumbai and unleash havoc during the 26/11 strikes. The carnage exposed the lack of "critical connectivity" between intelligence agencies and security agencies.

As per the blueprint, "state monitoring centres" in coastal states/UTs will act as nodes for the NMDA project, while a shipping hub and fisheries monitoring centre will also be established. The four existing joint operations centres at Mumbai, Kochi, Vizag and Port Blair, set up in the aftermath of 26/11, will also be upgraded.

[Viv S]

China has shown them to be its future "naval bases".A most clear statement of intent.

Correctamundo. Today its just a submarine docking in SL. By the end of the decade, it'll be an aircraft carrier. And while their static assets in and around the region might be limited to listening posts, they'll most definitely have a permanent presence in Gwadar by 2025.

The Maldives and SL should be gently but firmly told that any presence of foreign warships,aircraft,mil. personnel etc.,on its territory would be construed as an act of war against India and that India would be open to resort to any means to safeguard its interests. A gift by PM Modi to these leaders about the Cuban crisis would be a thoughtful reminder!

Aside from the ire that such a threat would invite, what if (egged on by China) they call us on it. We're certainly not going to start a naval blockade of a neighboring country, and they all know it.

The firmest response to Chinese inroads in the IOR, is to restart the four nation QSD and upgrade ties with Vietnam.

[Philip]

India has an agreement with SL that their territory would not be used by foreign military entities for use against India.Either Lanka scraps it or risks an unpleasant incident in the future.If we don't draw the line now,just as it is happening on the LAC,the dragon will one day squat permanently on the two island nations.

This also calls for a further urgent strengthening of the IN all round,with increasing the number and lethality of the sub fleet the priority.Plans for the construction of IAC-2 and 3 of larger size and preferably nuclear powered should be firmed up.China plans to have in the water within a decade 4 Varyag sized carriers.

A decade+ ago,I was laughed at when I predicted PLAN subs entering the IN and using SL for its naval forces. At that time there was little talk of a Chinese built port and intl. airport at Hambantota.The speed with which events have unfolded indicate the urgency with which we have to get our act together.