Dhruv at Paris Air Show: Report

Amarko · Post by **Amarko** » 16 Jun 2003 17:47

An all, a proud moment for HAL engineers, India and Indians! It was a great moment meeting one of Dhruv’s creators.

Amarko.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 16 Jun 2003 18:13

Thanks Amarko for that info abt Dhruv at the Paris Airshow. There are 2 photos of Dhruv in static display at the IAI stall in the Janes image gallery. Here's the URL:

Paris Air Show

BTW, you have register to view them. Registration is free. You can also use ur old ID to login.

Amarko · Post by **Amarko** » 16 Jun 2003 18:24

I created a login bharat123 pswd bharat123 on janes for those who want to see the pix without bothering to register again

Amarko.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 16 Jun 2003 18:42

VEry good prestation of the Druhv att Le bourget.

te problem is that the NH-90 is even more impressive.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 16 Jun 2003 18:42

Note, both pictures clearly show a presumably Israeli forward-looking infra-red (FLIR) ball on the front (the caption on one says it). There are also some other sensors immediately below the windshield; does anyone know what they are?

An impressive debut at the Paris air show! Thanks Amarko.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 16 Jun 2003 18:52

The blisters are the RWR recievers, possibly the Indian one. Also, notice the white antenna on port side of the roof (next to the gearbox).

What is that white cylinder in between the windshields, another antenna?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 16 Jun 2003 18:55

Thanks for that lovely report amarko!

vverma · Post by **vverma** » 16 Jun 2003 18:58

Thanks for the report. Did you take any pictures of the cockpit?

Amarko · Post by **Amarko** » 16 Jun 2003 19:41

A real bummer that my trusted camera ran out of batteries before taking any Dhruv pictures

, and I had no time to run around and buy more. CR123s have a reputation to die without warning

. I had a couple of friends snap pictures, and so I'll post the scans when I get the copies.

Amarko.

Amarko · Post by **Amarko** » 16 Jun 2003 19:48

[quote]Originally posted by Fize JC:
VEry good prestation of the Druhv att Le bourget.

te problem is that the NH-90 is even more impressive.
Amarko.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 16 Jun 2003 20:04

good..good..and NH90 is frontrunner for SeaKing
replacement, so lets not choose - everything on
menu is eatable.

Nandai · Post by **Nandai** » 16 Jun 2003 20:09

What day will it fly? hope Jane's posts some videos of that.

Div · Post by **Div** » 16 Jun 2003 20:50

Good stuff. The EH 101 AEW Mk 112 AEW helicopter with Eliradar MM/APS-784 pulse Doppler surveillance radar doesn't look too shabby either.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 16 Jun 2003 21:26

The MMA looks really wierd. What is the mission payload on that thing.

The Agusta 119 and fire attack thingy is nothing but a fire dousing system ( sheesh & I thought another slim funky radar )

Thanks for the report amarko. Did the above gent mention anything about LAH ? Any new models or blurbs about evloution of dhruv ?

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 16 Jun 2003 21:47

whats role of israeli MMA? they have mounted a
electro-optical pod beneath the 737. looks like a
anti-terror recon bird-cum-control room not a
full fledged E8 or MC2A.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 16 Jun 2003 22:02

WoW, the Dhruv camo looks awesome!!!!!!!!!!

ptraj · Post by **ptraj** » 17 Jun 2003 00:06

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
whats role of israeli MMA? they have mounted a
electro-optical pod beneath the 737. looks like a
anti-terror recon bird-cum-control room not a
full fledged E8 or MC2A.

"Multi-Mission Aircraft (MMA)
The MMA features SIGINT (COMINT and ELINT) and IMINT (SAR/Radar and Electro-optic Sensors), an Integration Station receiving information from all sensors and an Intelligence Information Dissemination Station."

Elta

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Jun 2003 02:18

http://www.paris-air-show.com/index3.htm

There is a nice VR walk through.

If you go towards the end on the left (slick on static and think of the bottom of the hockey stick ) in the static exhibitions you will see green pine and arrow combo. Arrow is pretty big.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 17 Jun 2003 05:31

ALH cockpit:

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 17 Jun 2003 10:08

Hi Amar,
great show!great report!

We never corresponded after our e-mails.Will get in touch with you as I may be in your part of the woods soon.
Cheers,
Kapil

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jun 2003 11:05

Originally posted by amarko:
Dhruv at Paris Air Show Report : 15June2003

Amarko.

Just making this one post to indicate how jealous I am at not being at the Paris Air show. :whine: :whine:

grip · Post by **grip** » 17 Jun 2003 11:26

Wonderful report Amar!! Helicopterrific!!!

There also seems to be a video section for the Paris Air show in the Janes site. I hope the video of the ALH appears too.

nshravan · Post by **nshravan** » 17 Jun 2003 12:34

thanks for the link and login amar..
the images section has some nice pics..
relevant to the discussion here r the dhruv pics listed there.
http://paris.janes.com/docs/paris/gallery/dsc_3949.shtml
http://paris.janes.com/docs/paris/gallery/dsc_4112.shtml

must add i was pretty proud to see India among the small list of countries showcasing their products. About time that the defence labs added commercialization to the vocabulary. Another couple of years and we'll probably see Tejas eliciting some wows from the crowd.

Amarko · Post by **Amarko** » 17 Jun 2003 13:46

One of the things that occured to me while returning home that evening was that it would have been great of the Dhruv team passed out handouts about Dhruv & HAL to the general public visiting the expo. It should not cost a lot to print a few thousand 3 to 5 page brochures and distribute them.

They should also have had a big LCD screen that shows 2/3 minutes long Dhruv videos in a loop, and shows all variants of Dhruv. That usually keeps the crowd stop and look for a few minutes and makes the names Dhruv & HAL register.

Due to lack of time, we could not see the HAL stand in the indoor exhibition halls, may be they did have some literature and videos there.

I got a feeling that the whole Dhruv team & chopper were overshadowed by IAI posters and logos and that IAI whas hogging all the limelight.

BTW, if you look closely at the Dhruv pictures from Jane's, in one of them you'll notice two men sitting in light brown overalls. They are the creators of Dhruv, who spoke to us. I was highly impressed at their kind and gentle manner, the enthusiasm with wihch they spoke to us, and their down to earth and humble attitide while brimming with confidence. To me that's an essential part of Indianness that you won't usually find elsewhere. Really wonderful human beings, I'd give my shirt to work with people like that !

Amarko.

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 17 Jun 2003 13:55

One thing really amazed me was the finish quality of the machine. I mean check out the grills on the engine and other fine details. Looks like a world class equipment. Feel so proud. Anyways any idea when we gonna see the armed version of ALH rolling out or we already decided on the LCH?

Abhisham

Amarko · Post by **Amarko** » 17 Jun 2003 14:00

Other stuff:

There were flying displays and lot of muscle flexing by the 3 new generation European fighters.

The first naturally was the Rafale (biplace variant) that flew in with a thunderous roar and did some pretty impressive but classic flying, its landing gear deployed all the time

Then came the Eurofighter Typhoon, with a more impressive display, faster accelerations and tighter turns.

The last was the Gripen, which was as impressive as the big brothers Rafale & Typhoon, and the only fighter to do a "bell" manouevre.

I'd score 1 Typhoon 2 Rafale 3 Gripen

Then came the best of all, the trusted old Mirage2000. Its flying display as the most impressive. Much faster accelerations, tighter turns, very agile recovery from spins, you can just know that its FBW has been so thoroughly debugged and optimized that it can do tricks that Rafale/Typhoon/Gripen pilots wouldn't still dare to do.

In a dog fight, Mirage2000 can really give the fancy new kids on the block a run for their money !

Amarko.

vverma · Post by **vverma** » 17 Jun 2003 14:37

Have any of the Indian customers ordered the Israeli avionics upgrade? IAI website says that it makes ALH capable of day and night operations, plus looking at the picture I think it even includes the helmet mounted aiming (look what the pilot on the left is wearing). May be useful for the armed ALH version.

How much does it add to the cost?

advitya · Post by **advitya** » 17 Jun 2003 15:15

The Israeli Avionics are being used for the armed Army Dhruvs (also called the Weapons Intregrated or WI Dhruv). The 21st production Dhruv onwards will feature the glass cockpit etc.

Muns · Post by **Muns** » 17 Jun 2003 15:49

Shabash! Looks amazing...and that blue camo is a match for it.
Only hope they decide to keep it and not opt for the standard grey....IAF needs to think about us air afficianados as well. :whine:
Apparently Tipnis went on the whole grey mission with Phil showing us pics of Grey bases, with Grey Migs being fuelled by Grey Fuel trucks....a whole Greyewash...

A superb chopper for the triservices, a world beater in its class. The IA has a requirement for 60 AALHs, armed dhruvs..
Who needs asimov and giant mechanised drones.....imagine 60 of these blue babies armed with Nags in a couple of years cleansing the Indus of ALL khalids...positively refreshing...

vverma · Post by **vverma** » 17 Jun 2003 16:18

The requirement for AALHs seems to be coming from the Army(~60) and not the Air Force which has a requirement of ~60 LCH. That leads me to the question, why are they duplicating efforts to build a force of attack helicopters?

The LCH in its current avatar is not very different in capabilities from the AALH (especially after the Israeli avionics upgrade). What would Air Force's LCH's role be in a war scenario? Are they meant for different terrain?

John_Doe · Post by **John_Doe** » 17 Jun 2003 16:59

Are there any plansto develop a dedicated highly manoueverable attack chopper ala werewolf, hokum or Rooivolk?

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 17 Jun 2003 16:59

Army will also obtain LCHs once they appear, and keep buying the basic Dhruv for utility. IAF I thought just needs the utility version because tank-busting is now army aviation.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 17 Jun 2003 17:06

Originally posted by amarko:
Other stuff:

The first naturally was the Rafale (biplace variant) that flew in with a thunderous roar and did some pretty impressive but classic flying, its landing gear deployed all the time

Amarko.

Landing gear ? All the time ?
I was there the 15 June and even if the pilot deployed it lots of time before landing, I can assure you that you're wrong.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 17 Jun 2003 17:17

pilot deployed it lots of time before landing

lots of time??? how many times did he deploy to land once?

advitya · Post by **advitya** » 17 Jun 2003 17:56

Originally posted by vverma:

The LCH in its current avatar is not very different in capabilities from the AALH (especially after the Israeli avionics upgrade). What would Air Force's LCH's role be in a war scenario? Are they meant for different terrain?

You have asked the million dollar question. The LCH and the WI Dhruv are identical as far as avionics is concerned. The IAF is interested in a design that has a 'smaller' profile than the Dhruv and are being clever (much to the Army's annoyance) in financially piggy-backing on the Army's weapons integration efforts. The Army feel that the IAF should share the costs of WI. HAL is happy because the IAF is helping underwrite airframe development and will have a new product to market.

It's important to emphsize that the addition of Israeli electronics is not an 'upgrade' per se, it was planned for the WI Dhruv as far back as 1998 or so.

The IAF intends to use the choppers in a SEAD role to open a corridors for strike air aircraft....or so it says.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 17 Jun 2003 18:15

the KH31MP being 5 meters long and 600kg is out
of the question for Dhruv/LCH. so looks like IAF
intends to go after forward area radars with Nags, rockets and cannons (?)

I would have thought just use the KH31s 70km range and a decoy of RCS-enhanced Lakshya to get Pak radars to activate then launch from within india via Jags/M2Ks.

Nandai · Post by **Nandai** » 17 Jun 2003 18:31

New pictures at Jane's of Dhruv in the air, doing its thing.

Amarko · Post by **Amarko** » 17 Jun 2003 18:33

Originally posted by Fize JC:

Originally posted by amarko:
Other stuff:

The first naturally was the Rafale (biplace variant) that flew in with a thunderous roar and did some pretty impressive but classic flying, its landing gear deployed all the time

Amarko.
Landing gear ? All the time ?
I was there the 15 June and even if the pilot deployed it lots of time before landing, I can assure you that you're wrong.

I remarked the landing gear was deployed and the pilot did quite a few manoeuvres after that, so I thought it was deployed all the time, and was surprised. I'm not 100% sure, a lot was happening in the sky in a very short time ! If there are video grabs somewhere on the web, we can verify and be sure.

Amarko.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Jun 2003 20:36

Amarko,

Here you go.. The rafael does look nice.. The landing gear seems to be down only in the final leg. It also comes to stop very quickly.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/salons/bourget3/pages/fr/index.cfm

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 17 Jun 2003 22:19

Originally posted by m n kumar:
pilot deployed it lots of time before landing

lots of time??? how many times did he deploy to land once?

A good 40 secondes.
The pilot finished something, he was at the very right of the public and had to go to the very left before landing.