First IL-38 upgrade returns home

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 17 Jan 2006 15:43

Upgraded IL-38 aircraft of the Indian Navy:
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3690/u ... 20ret1.jpg

PRESS INFORMATION BUREAU (DEFENCE WING)
(GOVERNMENT OF INDIA)

IL – 38 RETURNS AFTER MODERNISATION

New Delhi, 17 Jan, 2006

The Indian Navy’s maritime surveillance capability
received a big shot in the arm with the return of the
first MRASW Ilyushin –38 aircraft from Russia after
extensive modernization and refurbishment. The
aircraft, equipped with a new state-of-the-art sensors
and weapons package arrived at the naval air station
INS Hansa, Dabolim on 15 January.

The first IL 38SD aircraft of Indian Navy, IN 305, is
fitted with multi-functional “Sea Dragon Mission
Suite”, augmenting its independent capability of
search, detection, localisation and tracking of
aerial, surface and subsurface targets and destruction
of surface and subsurface targets. The Sea Dragon
comprises multifunctional radar, finger printing
electronic surveillance system, anti-submarine system,
magneto-metric system, Infra Red & TV System, C4 I 2
capable tactical system, anti ship system with
capability to launch bombs, torpedoes and air to
surface missiles. The combined features and functions
of the mission suite surpass the capability possessed
by any MR air platform in the Indian Navy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jan 2006 16:24

Nice News Vishnu , I hope they sort out their differences and the Tu-142M also gets their SD suite.

Getting the Tu-22M3 with SD as the Russians are offering is also a good platform to have.

Sudhir · Post by **Sudhir** » 17 Jan 2006 19:41

Whats sensors does the top radome contain? Radar / ESM?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jan 2006 08:22

This is good news indeed. With the server issue finally resolved, I should be able to do some updates now as well.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Jan 2006 08:24

Sudhir wrote:Whats sensors does the top radome contain? Radar / ESM?

Thats the radar.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2006 10:20

I think its the ESM. the radar would be in previous canoe fairing under the
belly.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Jan 2006 11:13

Its External ESM antenna mounted on top part it supposed to provide all round coverage its designation is 2SD9.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Jan 2006 11:29

You have a ref for that; the ESM is supposed to be DRDO's; havent seen such a huge fairing, another russian caption said it was the Sea Dragon suite radar itself.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2006 11:32

No I am sure its the ESM on top. there are other pix around in places like AFM mag for the belly radome.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Jan 2006 11:52

Refs please.
BR just says that the radome holds ISAR/SAR radar. Should be the same logically, but dont know what components and how many systems make the upgrade.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Jan 2006 11:54

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21568

Ken cites IAPR for the above being ESM. That settles it I guess.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2006 12:00

the radome under belly looks like a large spider carrying its egg sac. killed a few in my time...had them stuffed and mounted in my cabinet of hunting trophies.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Jan 2006 12:23

Singha wrote:the radome under belly looks like a large spider carrying its egg sac. killed a few in my time...had them stuffed and mounted in my cabinet of hunting trophies.

http://www.royfc.com/

by Roy Cochrun

ROY'S RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT RESOURCE

The Long Creeping Out of the “Sea Dragon”

India is examining alternative proposals for basic patrol airplanes

In September 2001, Russia and India signed a contract worth 250 million dollars for the upgrade of five basic Il-38 patrol airplanes into the Il-38SD variant ((suffix in Latin letters)) (with the “Sea Dragon” aircraft search and targeting complex.) According to reports of the information agencies, transfer to the customer of the first IL-38SD had been planned before the end of 2003. Now they are calling the second half of 2005 as the approximate period for dispatching the first two Il-38SD.

The basic patrol airplanes are the “eyes and ears” of the military sailors. Because of delays with the realization of the Il-38 upgrade project, the Indian navy has remained “blind” and “deaf” for several years. What decisions will the customer make, having restored “hearing” and “sight”?

It is possible, instead of upgrade of the Tu-142MKEh, by analogy with the Il-38, the Indians will prefer to purchase P-3C Orion ((in English)) airplanes in the U.S.A. In meetings with Indian journalists, India’s naval chief of staff, Admiral Arun Prakash ((phonetic)) named the “Orion” as a “strong pretender for the role of a large basic airplane for Indian naval aviation.”

Right now, when the Il-38SD, by all appearances, has come about and soon will enter India’s 315th navy aviation squadron, it is seems to be appropriate to look into the situation. In order avoid a repeat of the unpleasantness, it is necessary to draw the correct conclusions on the basis of the completed and on-going projects.

India’s navy occupies a special place in the structure of the armed forces. Very likely, India has the most powerful naval forces among the states of the Asian and Pacific Ocean region. Included are aircraft carriers, destroyers, frigates, corvettes and submarines of European, Soviet and their own construction. The country is involved with the creation of its own aircraft carriers and atomic submarines which are called upon to replace the English and Soviet analogs.

The aerial reconnaissance and observation missions, and also antisubmarine operations in open sea, have been entrusted to the Soviet built Tu-142MKEh and Il-38 airplanes. Lightweight German Dornier 228 ((in English)) aircraft bear patrol of coastal waters and maritime boundaries.

No problems have been noted with the latter. India has extended contracts for the licensed assembly of Dornier airplanes at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited ((in English)) facilities. There is a tender at the present time for a new lightweight patrol airplane. Among the aspirants are the An-140MP, ATR-42MP ((in English)), C-235/295 FIT ((Latin letters)), and also special variants of the Embraer EMB145 ((in English)) and Gulfstream G-550 ((in English)). Russian proposals in the competition are not being examined for a number of reasons, including those connected with the long “creeping out” of the “Sea Dragon.”

In the area of naval aviation with a long radius of action, the Indian side has trusted in Russia, having ordered serious upgrade of a good deal of aging in service time Soviet manufactured basic patrol airplanes.

After several years of negotiations four years ago, Delhi agreed to the plan proposed by Moscow. True, the customer preferred “consecutive” to “parallel” upgrade of the Il-38 and Tu-142MKEh.

In September 2001, the sides concluded a contract for the upgrade of five Il-38 into the SD (Sea Dragon) ((in English)) variant. After the loss (as a result of an aerial collision) of two Indian airplane sin October 2002, they looked at the deal again. Two airplanes from the Russian Federation defense ministry were offered on an uncompensated basis to India.

The Il’yushin Aviation Complex extended the calendar period for use of airplanes of the Il-18 type (the Il-20 and Il-38 military variants are included in the family) to 40 years. The first upgraded aircraft flew as early as the start of 2001. It was reported in November 2002 about the start of complex tests of the targeting apparatus.

The “Sea Dragon” is a multipurpose complex which resolves missions in the detection of submarines, the survey of the water’s surface, reconnaissance of ground targets, the conduct of search and rescue operations and ecological monitoring. It has a range of more than 300 kilometers in the water surface survey mode and up to 100 kilometers – of air space, and is capable simultaneously to track thirty and more targets.

The complex, a development of the Leninets holding company, became the main reason for the delays with execution of the contract. In February 2005, at the Aero India 2005 exhibition the FGUP Rosoboronehksport deputy director, Viktor Komardin, answer like this to a VPK question on the condition of the Il-38SD project: “You understand, the “Sea Dragon” is so advanced a complex in the technical regard that it can be called equipment of tomorrow. And ‘tomorrow’ in no way can ensue.”

There is a proposal that the developers of the “Sea Dragon” had counted on the “parallel” variant of the Il-38 and Tu-142MKEh upgrade. But events really went via the “consecutive” scenario. As a result, less funds arrived that were expected for the creation of the complex. Most likely, “under-financing” also became the root of the extended operational development of the complex.

The appearance in India’s navy of the ship-based Ka-31 radar observation helicopters with the “Oko” observation radar somewhat defused the situation with aerial reconnaissance. Very likely, only with the introduction into service of project 11356 frigates of the newest construction and of the new ship-based helicopters, the Indian navy restored the ability to a well-known degree to resolve missions of aerial reconnaissance in the open sea. When the first Ka-31 arrived in India, naval aviation had available only two Il-38. True, flight of the Tu-142MKEh continued, but their limited quantity (eight units) and aging avionics complex (a 1986 model) imposed definite limitations.

It is planned to equip the 185-tonne giant also with the “Sea Dragon.” Russian industry is not offering alternative variants. The customer, undoubtedly, has gotten interested in the upgrade of the given airplane and its reequipping. The Tu-142MKEh is able to cover a distance up to 12,000 kilometers or “hang” in the air up to 17 hours. However, the present weapons composition (it is limited by bombs and torpedoes) does not allow the use of the airplane as a strike ((vehicle.)) The installation of the “Sea Snake” make the use of cruise missiles possible. But the drawn out history of the preceding project, very likely, is compelling the customer to think about the advisability of such an upgrade.

AK Il’yushin also bears a definite share of the responsibility for the delay of the Il-38SD project. Owing to a number of reasons, the airplane’s developmental firm was not able to create a single solitary project management team, hence also a whole series of problems...

Be that as it may, right now it is extremely important that the Indian navy receive the long awaited Il-38SD. Regular delivery delays, while not speaking of possible complaints for operation of the new aircraft complex, may be used by the enemies of military and technical cooperation between Moscow and Delhi for the breaking up of other Soviet and Russian manufactured armament and military equipment which serves in the inventory of the Indian army and navy.

And the Russian power structures also need modern reconnaissance airplanes. The domestic navy is awaiting a revised variant of the “Sea Dragon” for internal use, for the upgrade of its own Il-38 and Tu-142 based on engineering solutions paid for by the foreign customer.

In this connection, experts recall that as early as 2002, representatives of the Russian navy noted at the hydro aviation salon in Gelendzhik that the technical aspect of the “Sea Dragon” accommodates them in principle, while expressing, however, at the same time the desire that Leninets work on it more actively and purposefully. The desire, judging by everything, has been disregarded.

A special “Sea Dragon” variant may be of interest for Federal Security Service aviation. They need airplanes with a reconnaissance, observation and control complex for the resolution of missions for guarding coastal waters and anti-terrorist activity in the North Caucuses.

Source: 17.06.05, Voenno-Promyshlennyy Kur’er Vladimir Karnozov

All said and done, this appears to be a very formidable system.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2006 12:30

Indeed If we have an equipment of Tommorow , Our Today is safe atleast

Talking about equipment of today the IN is more keen to go for the Boeing 737 based P-8A , The chief WNC has stated that in an interview that either a Airbus or Boeing based solution is the preferred replacement for Tu-142.

Interesting place to have an ESM Antenna , the antenna itself looks strange , visually it becomes a childs play to identify a Sea Dragon'ed IL-38.

The Tu-142M seems to have been caught in a tangle between India & Russia , India wants Israel Stuff , Russians wont allow that , India limit is $500 million for the Tu-142M upgrade , Russias asks $750 million.

But the main hurdle seems Israel component to the Tu-142M , Why dosent IN goes with the SD for the Tu , arnt they happy with the SD config , why are they insisting on Israel stuff ????

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 18 Jan 2006 12:39

Per whats been posted by Uncles aunts friends in BR, the Tu upgrade with Israeli kit has also been underway. The Tu also has the locally produced ESM gear ..

John · Post by **John** » 18 Jan 2006 18:42

JCage wrote:You have a ref for that; the ESM is supposed to be DRDO's; havent seen such a huge fairing, another russian caption said it was the Sea Dragon suite radar itself.

IDR 2003 Sept.

George J · Post by **George J** » 18 Jan 2006 19:35

I am surprised to see the IL-38 back in India after a "successful" upgrade. There were all kinds of stories floating about serious integration headaches. Since no naval officer has been killed (off) I am assuming that either no one really protested or they actually managed to solve all problems in an amicable manner.

I hope the IAF and IN play well with each other and share/train with their common munitions on the IL-38-MKI.

ameya · Post by **ameya** » 18 Jan 2006 20:27

Any idea as to how the planes were brought back ?
SKD's ?
or flown in from Russia ?
If they were flown in then where was the testing done , over Karachi

?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2006 20:51

GJ, the length of time it took to upg one airframe is a clear indication nothing was ready to plug-n-play when it was sent. Ru developed and tested the gear on our airframe coz probably they dont have any lying around.

hopefully the next few will be quicker because the stuff is finally plug n play now.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 18 Jan 2006 21:33

Is it possible that the top thing is a streeable phase steering antenna for secured high speed communication with friendly assets.

I saw that US Hawkeyes got similar stuff mounted in the belly.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 18 Jan 2006 22:17

Did Vishu give permission to these blokes to use his pic? Or is this a IN produced pic?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 19 Jan 2006 04:28

Singha wrote:No I am sure its the ESM on top. there are other pix around in places like AFM mag for the belly radome.

The only confirmed description translates to "radio recon" tower. Think about it -> simultaneous air and sea search with two radars. A very big deal.

No ESM antenna needs to be that big.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 19 Jan 2006 05:01

Thats what has been bugging me as well;
I am yet to see an ESM fairing that big on an Indian/ Russian project with todays available technology. Whereas we all have seen AWACs style radomes havent we?
The BR description is that the bottom radar is for SAR/ ISAR radar.
There could be two radars- but then again, the literature doesnt mention it.

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 19 Jan 2006 09:44

Are we getting additional Il-38 airframes from the Russian kitty..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jan 2006 09:49

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 19 Jan 2006 10:17

Are 5 Il-38's enough for the IN then.. I think that Russia has more in it's reserve which can be offered to IN to build up some numbers around 8-10 .. I guess..

With 142 being a maintenance hog.. limited 38's and P3C's going no where.. adding numbers of 38's would have been a good idea..

How capable is the airframe in itself..

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 19 Jan 2006 10:50

Himanshu wrote:... adding numbers of 38's would have been a good idea..

Nope ... not without "proven" ASCM (aka Brahmos for us) firing capability. With that though (from a survillence to an offensive platform, right), it becomes a fantastic toy to own, IMO ...

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 19 Jan 2006 10:56

Himanshu,

Russia cant spare more Il38's as far as I remember..hope they do so to sweeten the deal and get more upgrades!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jan 2006 11:37

somone was claiming the Upg IL38 can fire air launched version of Uran.

anyway I agree that P3C is going nowhere - undue haste in kitting TSPN up, undue waste in kitting us up - usual unkil_play.

we should hook up with france and develop a new std ASW platform based around either a A321-ER chassis or ATR. probably both with similar mission suite is the best balance.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 19 Jan 2006 12:01

2 Urans iirc. Prasun as usual had plagiarized it.

Priyank · Post by **Priyank** » 19 Jan 2006 13:26

JCage, Singha,

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attach ... ntid=16638

That looks like a Sea Eagle training round on an IN's IL-38 (serial number IN 303).

Also, what does "DAB" on the tail signify? Dabolim?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jan 2006 13:33

Harry@work. ask him what the current scene and plans are...

kantak · Post by **kantak** » 19 Jan 2006 14:57

Priyank wrote:JCage, Singha,

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attach ... ntid=16638

That looks like a Sea Eagle training round on an IN's IL-38 (serial number IN 303).

Also, what does "DAB" on the tail signify? Dabolim?

DAB stads for Dabolim ---INS HANSA air base

kantak · Post by **kantak** » 19 Jan 2006 14:59

ameya wrote:Any idea as to how the planes were brought back ?
SKD's ?
or flown in from Russia ?
If they were flown in then where was the testing done , over Karachi ?

They will be flown in one by one from russia to ukraine to cairo then to goa.Atleast the first one has taken this route

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 19 Jan 2006 21:45

Hi there .. the image is a press release from the Defence Ministry. Anyone can use it for reporting purposes.

Thanks
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor (Defence)
NDTV

Marcos · Post by **Marcos** » 19 Jan 2006 21:49

well good news and i think the delivery date was mised this time too ....

here is the Hindu article which appeared on 12 Dec 2005, I cud not find the online version and so did i not got to see the news article in any other online links, So hopefully only Hindu carried this report ....

Navy Launches Expansion Programme (Dec 12, 2005, Hindu)

Its Stature n South Asia is growing, says Assistant Naval Chief

Special Correspondent

ARAKKONAM: In view of its growing stature in South Asia and the consequent increasing role in the Indian Ocean, the Indian Navy has launched a big expansion programme which included the replacement and modernisation of the existing fleet of naval planes and helicopters, according to the Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff (Air), Sunil K.Damle.

The Navy recently concluded joint exercises with the U.S and French Navies, and those of several South-East Asian countries. "As fas as our maritime reconnaissance task is concerned, we want to bring the entire Indian Ocean under our survellience, for which we need more and modern aircraft," Rear Admiral Damle told newspersons at the Naval Air Station, INS Rajali here on Saturday. He was here to witness the passing out parade of the 65th Helicopter Conversion Course.

Refurbishment

Rear Admiral Damle said that the five IL-38 maritime warplanes presently located in Goa, have been sent to Russia for refurbishment. After retrofitting, the first aircraft would be received by the end of this month, while the other four would be received next month. All the five would be re-based in Arakkonam. The Government of India had given permission to the Indian Navy to replace the 8 Tu-142 planes located in INS Rajali, and the 16 Sea King naval helicopters based in different naval air stations in the country, all of which have become very old. While Russia has offered to supply IL-38 planes, the P3C Orion planes are also on offer from the United States. Besides, French and Spanish companies have also offered to supply the planes. The Indian Navy will decide later about which aircraft to buy to replace the Tu-142 planes, he said.

Mid-life update

The Assistant Chief of the naval Staff said the Navy was going to do "mid-life update" of the Kamov-28 helicopters being operated from a ship of Russian origin. "The sensors and radars will be changed. The Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., Banglore is carrying out an update on our Sea Harriers," he said.

Rear Admiral Damle said that while the MiG-29 aircraft to be acquired by the Indian Navy from Russia will be ready before the end of 2007, INS Gorshkov, the Russian aircraft carrier would be commisioned in the Indian Navy by 2008. The refetting programme of the aircraft-carrier is on schedule in Russia and INS Gorshkov will be renamed as INS Vikramaditya when it joins the Indian Navy.

Also to be noted is that, the Indian media earlier never carried the offer that Russia was making ...

and seems like the smart guys waited a bit more and modified and put their version being the 5 a/c will be arriving in January

INDIAN return
21/12/05

The Indian navy is due to receive all five of its refurbished Ilyushin Il-38 maritime patrol aircraft from Russia by late January. It has also received permission to seek replacements for its eight Tupolev Tu-142s and 16 Westland Sea King 42s and intends to upgrade its Kamov Ka-28s.

Marcos · Post by **Marcos** » 19 Jan 2006 21:57

also, don't u guys think that adding more Il-38s wud be the better option, as it wud cease the pressure on spares and service.

We need to have replacements for these, which have to be new & fresh platforms, so the best option wud be to acquire more IL-38s (& Tu-142, if needed) and make use of it till the new Platform come online.

For the new platform, we can make a fresh start making use of the turbofan options like (A-321, B-737NG, Tu-214) for the medium-long range MPA and if ptops is what neded customise (heavy one) the same by having the mid-fuselage & wings modified for twin-turbo-props.

But, the time filling till then has to be done by the current line of a/c, so as for it to be economic and for easeing the logistics ...

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 19 Jan 2006 22:49

Maybe look into the P-99 with Russian, Indian, French, and Israeli gear? P-99MKI?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 20 Jan 2006 05:45

Priyank wrote:
That looks like a Sea Eagle training round on an IN's IL-38 (serial number IN 303).

Project Yaduvansh

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Jan 2006 12:38

Vishnu wrote:Hi there .. the image is a press release from the Defence Ministry. Anyone can use it for reporting purposes.

Thanks
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor (Defence)
NDTV

Hi Vishnu,

Trust that yuo will be omni present at DEF EXPO 2006. I hope to meet you. Lasst couple of time we had asmall get together of some BRites. You must join us. At least I would like to meet and say hi to you.

Regards
Kersi