LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

[UlanBatori]

BTW, one of the best authorities on aircraft system identification is Ravindra Jategaonkar, ex-EyeEyeChai Kanpur, I think.

Here are some more classics on this topic, most relevant to LCA and other combat aircraft:
Jategaonkar, R. V., and F. Thielecke. "Evaluation of parameter estimation methods for unstable aircraft." Journal of Aircraft 31.3 (1994): 510-519.

Goman, M., and A. Khrabrov. "State-space representation of aerodynamic characteristics of an aircraft at high angles of attack." Journal of Aircraft 31.5 (1994): 1109-1115.

Another one because - see the abstract below:
Chowdhary, Girish, and Ravindra Jategaonkar. "Aerodynamic parameter estimation from flight data applying extended and unscented Kalman filter." Aerospace science and technology 14.2 (2010): 106-117.

Abstract

Aerodynamic parameter estimation is an integral part of aerospace system design and life cycle process. Recent advances in computational power have allowed the use of online parameter estimation techniques in varied applications such as reconfigurable or adaptive control, system health monitoring, and fault tolerant control. The combined problem of state and parameter identification leads to a nonlinear filtering problem; furthermore, many aerospace systems are characterized by nonlinear models as well as noisy and biased sensor measurements. Extended Kalman filter (EKF) is a commonly used algorithm for recursive parameter identification due to its excellent filtering properties and is based on a first order approximation of the system dynamics. Recently, the unscented Kalman filter (UKF) has been proposed as a theoretically better alternative to the EKF in the field of nonlinear filtering and has received great attention in navigation, parameter estimation, and dual estimation problems. However, the use of UKF as a recursive parameter estimation tool for aerodynamic modeling is relatively unexplored. In this paper we compare the performance of three recursive parameter estimation algorithms for aerodynamic parameter estimation of two aircraft from real flight data. We consider the EKF, the simplified version of the UKF and the augmented version of the UKF. The aircraft under consideration are a fixed wing aircraft (HFB-320) and a rotary wing UAV (ARTIS). The results indicate that although the UKF shows a slight improvement in some cases, the performance of the three algorithms remains comparable.

When you reverse-engineer, you don't try to make things that LOOK like the original, you try to match the performance and behavior of the original, and then do better.

[Indranil]

Okay bosses,

Let's get back to the LCA, of present day.

[JTull]

Okay bosses,

Let's get back to the LCA, of present day.

[vina]

The combined problem of state and parameter identification leads to a nonlinear filtering problem; furthermore, many aerospace systems are characterized by nonlinear models as well as noisy and biased sensor measurements. Extended Kalman filter (EKF)

Joo can do filtering techniques similar to estimating the parameters for ishtaack market as well! Only
trouble is Kalman filter is a linear filter with gaussian error assumptions (okay the EKF and Unscented do extend it to non linear methods). However, unlike Hawaii jahaaj with more predictable stuff, here there are billions of abduls with dhoti shivers all around stuff and things can go really really wacky. So more advanced stuff is particle filters and jump diffusion models layered on top of this.All basically trying to estimate parameters of hidden markov models and trying to make a daily living, whether flying vimaan like YellCeeYea or picking khota sikkas lying around (sometimes in heaps) after the dhoti shiverers have dropped it in their frenzy either on the up or the down.

However, given that you are trying to fit rational models into something that can be inherently irrational and sometimes plainly manipulated , you have to have your backside covered in layers of armor so that even if whacked you live to fight another day and get off easy and are not halalled.

[astal]

Regarding Parrikars recent statements, here is what I can from a glean from a quick glance at the tea leaves.

1. IAF needs to fill a numbers gap quickly, based on their own requirements calculations. For this purpose, Modi and Parrikar agreed to 36 Rafale. I think that is going to be it for the next three years.

2. Design for LCA Mk2 (IAF version) has not been finalized yet. This is really surprising given that it was supposed to be a few quick changes. The design of LCA Mk2 is crucial for the IAF and the future of the LCA. I will go out on a limb and say (actually I personally have nothing to lose) that Manohar Parrikar and the IAF have asked that the LCA MK2 match or exceed performance parameters of the Gripen. Since the IAF evaluated the Gripen for MRCA, they have a good idea of its performance.

All the design work for MK2 is focusing on this requirement. It is realistic and achievable. Given that the Gripen provided for evaluation was about 5 years old, when LCA Mk2 appears in 2020 or so, it will only be about 10 behind the Gripen (or even match the Gripen if no farther upgrades have taken place.)

If ADA is unable to match key parameters of Gripen in LCA Mk2, IAF may have to resort to another small single engine aircraft, with Gripen being the top contender.

3. The other challenge with the LCA is HAL's manufacturing capability and quality. I hope that they can lick this problem in the next few years. Otherwise Parrikar and Modi will be forced to order more Rafale or maybe Gripen to cover the capabilities gap. This will be done in collaboration with a private manufacturer and we would expect manufacturing technology to be part of the deal explicitly so LCA can also take advantage of those manufacturing technologies. (I doubt that Dassault or SAAB will part with manufacturing technology unless we make a substantial order. Perhaps even F 16 could be considered as LockMart may be more willing to part with older manufacturing technology) I think this is the challenge that Parrikar has presented to HAL and ADA.

Basically if HAL and ADA can match the performance of the Gripen with Tejas Mk2, all will be well and we will have 220 LCA's ordered in the next 15 years. Otherwise we are in for costly imports that may cripple or delay the LCA program.

The first validation of this will be Naval LCA Mk2. This design is finalized and should be flying in the next 3-4 years. I hope it can match the Gripen NG or whatever they are calling it now.

[UlanBatori]

Naat the bajaar to discuss these sorts of things, evidently. Not lo-level stuff that we poor yak-herders discuss over hooch in yak-sheds.

[shiv]

I just find it depressing that these things don't seem to be culturally ingrained. The Top in India seem to be mainly interested in getting baksheesh to buy ever newer shiny phoren, while ignoring all the opportunities to make revolutionary progress at the grassroots level.

This culture exists only at the level of local (predominantly Muslim) automobile workshops.

[member_22733]

I just find it depressing that these things don't seem to be culturally ingrained. The Top in India seem to be mainly interested in getting baksheesh to buy ever newer shiny phoren, while ignoring all the opportunities to make revolutionary progress at the grassroots level.

This culture exists only at the level of local (predominantly Muslim) automobile workshops.

Somewhat relevant:

That UB post is what caused me to post this on a burqa thread (later x-posted into Indian interests), we have to regain the confidence to select our own technologies and rapidly iterate. Needs deep reforms in education system, economy and industries.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1843257

[UlanBatori]

Unphortunate truth is that if 10 **Modern Todin's*** EllCeeYays and 2 Mirage dohajaar were falling each din in combat, there would be intense 'motivation' to
a) ramp up production and deployment rate
b) improve survivability, performance, everything.
This is the "advantage" that the Mongols, Huns, Anglo-Saxons, Russians and the Chinese have had through the ages.

But that is a bit late to start worrying about how to improve Kaveri T/W or the autoclave preparation CAD programs to improve composite panel matching to reduce transonic wave drag. So the real question is how to induce those sorts of motivations without/ b4 getting into those sorts of desperate straits, because in today's war theater, there is no time, and India does not have 2 oceans and an impassable Arctic barrier to protect it. The PLA showed that they could stream through the Himalayas just fine, and Pakis can come into Mumbai by sea.

So the fact about today's LCA is that it is a great airplane, one to be proud of, but all that about inability to ramp up production or generate various versions that test various new concepts, all point to sheer leadership vacuum.
As shiv pointed out, US air superiority was won at the cost of over 12,000 dead test pilots. To which I will add: experience of 55,000 dead from just the Xth Air Force, the one that went bombing/ fighting over Germany. Plus all the losses in Korea and Vietnam. The Russians and Europeans and Japanese also went through their own 'interesting times'.
Do Indians want to have to go through that or worse? Or pay attention to their home-grown programs as the only hope to protect freedom? Or just sit back admiring shiny new toys from abroad that break the budget, but induce no learning?

[NRao]

Interesting topic:

The metal that brought you cheap flights

[Jagan]

And in fact, HAL came up with an Ajeet trainer as well, which the Air Force which was hell bent on the Hawk refused to buy and would rather wait for another 20 years before having an AJT!

The Ajeet trainer was a 'Type Trainer' and could not really be a Hawk replacement as an Advanced Trainer.

[Viv S]

The Ajeet trainer was a 'Type Trainer' and could not really be a Hawk replacement as an Advanced Trainer.

Well.. the Hawk was a replacement for the RAF's Gnat trainer. If the IAF/MoD were somewhat flexible with its requirements, an improved Gnat as an AJT solution wasn't entirely out of the question.

[vina]

As shiv pointed out, US air superiority was won at the cost of over 12,000 dead test pilots

Not to mention the entire unmatched R&D of that period of the Germans, along with their best scientists , engineers and he losses they sustained during development. In addition, the US keeps the door wide open for everyone from around the world to Von Karman to Edgar Schumed (ironic, the aircraft that gained air superiority for the allies over Germany was designed by a German who immigrated to the US) to the YakHerder.

Here we have in addition to the general lack of ability to retain and nurture talent due to the general push factors in a turd world country, we the baboon and Mantri driven Govmint "Service" nonsense layered over it, with the icing being the x% for Y caste in proportion to population rubbish, with the "Yindee Promoshun" / "Lets Learn a Yindee Shabd every day" being the cherry on top. We are simply not serious.

[shiv]

I hate to say this. With my late cousin being my boyhood hero and having spent over 50 years as an Indian military aviation enthusiast and a VayuSena fan, and having a YouTube channel in which 100 out of 130 odd videos deal in Indian Military aviation - all supportive and positive - it looks like the Vayu Sena has a culture akin to that of wine tasters. They are fighter jocks of the World War I genre - a time when, in Britain, only the upper crust of society became pilots while the dregs went to the trenches. And they look critically at anything but the best. The crinkle their noses and sniff derisively at the oversweet underperformance of Indian wines while they are happy to speak of the '49 vintage or the '80 Vintage from France or elsewhere.

There is no point sitting and being judgemental and behaving like a driver whose ability to take you for a safe drive depends on what car you get him. "Arre yeh toh Indigo hai, bilkul faltu. Audi le lo aur phir driving ke baarey mein poocho". This is "Chauffeur buddhi". These people are prized professionals and they need to stick their noses into development of aircraft, materials and aerodynamics. The culture does not exist. they have to create it from within. They have to look at the country and say "This is our level of technology. This is what we can do. So this is what we can get. How can we cooperate to make it better"

[shiv]

I just read AM Matheswaran's article in Vayu (at least relevant bits). He says that LCAs lack in climb rate, turn rate and top speed and has intake issues at supersonic speeds. He says that it does not yet have AESA and he says that India is dependent on imports for "pre-pregs" needed for composites. He also takes a pot shot at those who are critical of him or the IAF because they know nothing about fighter flying - thereby eliminating all criticism as invalid. He then partially laments that the LCA may be going the way of the HF 24 just after pointing out that the IAF rejected it. That is specious - because there are IAF people, retired today who feel that the HF 24 could have been further developed. If he, as ex IAF helps to reject LCA he is aiding the same process that he says should not have happened with HF 24. The HF 24 was not the best fighter on earth. But it had its strong points. The only way to develop any technology is to try and leverage strong points and mitigate weaknesses. Isn't that what the IAF did with the MiG 21? And the Su-7. People are all praise for the Su-7 now, but the aircraft, back in the 60s - looked like a joke to me - a schoolboy when I compared its specs with its contemporaries - the F-4 Phantom, F-100 Super Sabre, F-105 Thunderchief, the Crusader and Corsair etc.

Why does the IAF spokesperson sound unconvincing to me - a lifelong IAF apologist and grovelling IAF chamcha that I have been? How long can people be fobbed off by excuses like "You are no fighter jock. You wouldn't know". Boss you, as fighter jock don't seem sensitive enough to the balance between technology and national strength and how you need to put you fighter-jock experts on the job. Fighter pilots become sad and upset when they can't fly. So I guess asking them to help technology development and posting them in a tech job will make them frustrated and fretful. And a techie or transport/helo pilot is already lower caste and can never become air chief.

What the fuk gives?

[member_22733]

Shivji,

I am wondering what was the status of the Navy and the AirForce during the time of liberation from the Brishits.

My suspicion is this :
1) Was the Royal IAF full of TFTA gora c**** and the RIN largely staffed by SDRE Indians?
2) Fewer staff members/pilots compared to sailors and that resulting in them coming from elite families as you mention.

Basically there seems to be a "TFTA/SDRE" caste system in IAF that does not seem to be there in the IN.

[shiv]

Basically there seems to be a "TFTA/SDRE" caste system in IAF that does not seem to be there in the IN.

I did not want to put it that way, but I cannot deny that this is exactly the thought that I had.

The IAF evolved from the RIAF, which itself was an offshoot of the British Air Arm (whatever it was called before it became RAF), The Brits had a very clear caste system of uppah class and non uppah class. It was the uppah class of the stiff uppah lip and hyphenated double barrelled names that became pilots. It was all fighter jocks in those days starting from World War 1. Those WW 1 types became the senior officer of WW2 and they probably set the culture that came into the IAF, Mind you the army too had a similar culture but that is another story. So you have fighter pilots at the top of the heap and the others below. That is not all - what bothers me is the attitude of F1 drivers - where the driver contributes nothing to the actual tech hurdles of car manufacture. He just drives to win and asks for a ready made car.

The IAF cannot simply be a elite Fi drivers club. They need to develop a separate culture that digs into engineering and technology. And guess what? When the IAF needs something done - it is often done by the IAFs Base Repair Depots - by nameless faceless technicians, fitters, welders and lathe operators led by some career Engineer - none of whom achieve any sort of prominence. Those workers are often just high school grads with a technical diploma in some Industrial Training Institute. These are the lower caste. they are there but they only sing seconds and only qualify for best supporting actress or best costume design award. No one will make a TV serial about them Shiv will never do a video about them to put on his Youtube channel. These latter people need to be given a vastly more important role. Pilots must fly what is built and maintained by technicians and mechanics. And the link goes all the way back to the manufacturer/OEM. if the IAF suddenly changes its collective mind and decides to embed these backward caste engineers and technicians in manufacture it will still be at least 10-20 years before we can see results. But I believe it will be well worth it.

[Gyan]

British Navy officer cadre was also elite of the elite but Indian Navy prides itself as builder Navy.

[member_22733]

Let me wager a guess: Running a ship requires a lot of co-ordination between people of all levels, i.e. the mechanics and maintenance folks have to be ON the ship running it as the captain who commands it.

Pilots on the other hand have lesser contacts with the mechanics and maintenance and therefore are more segregated from technology than the navy folks.

So if pilots are the only ones being promoted to higher levels then naturally they will not care about development etc.

[shiv]

Well if a ship sinks everyone sinks. If a plane crashes only the pilot crashes. How should an organization inculcate a sense of personal involvement among those who do not directly face the consequences of errors? By cursing them? Or by trying to join hands with them and mentoring them?

My late cousin had told me a story of a helicopter that once burned down at an air base (decades ago) . It looked like someone had smoked a cigarette in a no smoking zone. The CO made it clear that no one would be punished no matter what as long as the responsible person owned up. He apparently did. Pilots do have a close relationship with the workforce in bases, but the feeling of detachment from flying and lack of responsibility is usually pinned on the manufacturer - HAL. There are stories of fuel line clips being carelessly left out leading to fuel leaks and spanners in the engine. Cursing HAL is definitely required - but it needs to go beyond that to get the PSU worker who goes home to bed every night to feel responsible for his work. If he has got a career asshole babu as his boss - the whole set up might be stinking so much that a major clean up is needed.

[Austin]

Mister LCA

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/2015_issue2 ... terLCA.pdf

[vina]

The Ajeet trainer was a 'Type Trainer' and could not really be a Hawk replacement as an Advanced Trainer.

Well.. the Hawk was a replacement for the RAF's Gnat trainer. If the IAF/MoD were somewhat flexible with its requirements, an improved Gnat as an AJT solution wasn't entirely out of the question.

Exactly. This "not an AJT , but only a type trainer" was the same answer that Abhibhushan gave. But when I pointed out that the Gnat in RAF services was purely an AJT and you could have rolled back to the trainer and improved on it (Abhibhusan said that the trainer to fighter or maybe the fighter to trainer design change, whatever it was , took just a few months), and I told him that even if HAL took 3 years, it would have been well worth the effort.

Oh, and if you really wanted a more powerful engined trainer, you could have used the Adour instead of the Orpheus , just like the Brits did when they moved from Gnat to Hawk, and HAL too was producing the Adour at Bangalore ,as part of the Jaguar program !

Nope. The IAF saw a shiny new toy called Hawk, which the Brits replaced the Gnat with and they wanted it , no matter what , even if it meant waiting for 20 years, lots of rookies dead and killing a plane that had seen good service as a trainer and was quite well proven and could have been developed at very low cost (all the infra and other costs of the Gnat was already amortised over 30 years of production). After 25 odd years, you spend a few billion, get a new plane and a new assembly line! Great!

[vina]

The Ajeet trainer was ...

The BR Pages on the Gnat and the 50 years of the Gnat seem missing . I can't find them anywhere. Google shows the links, but end up as deadlinks when clicked. The only place there is IAF Gnat info seems to be at Team Bhp!

[Karan M]

Mister LCA

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/2015_issue2 ... terLCA.pdf

Typical of Vayu. Wonderful opportunity to know more about the LCA from a guy who matters. And instead they'll ask that Prodyut Das to write his screeds. And coincidentally, there will be articles on how great Gripen is.

[UlanBatori]

At least a part of this problem has to be turned back into the Mantri-Alaya. The IAF takes its sweet time developing Requirements - and I think some of that is done by reading glossy magazines like

Phlying the Phabulus Phantom

in Readers' Digest. Then they come around and EVENTUALLY manage to get the attention of Babus in Dilli and wake up the Mantri to the fact that if a war happened, the Pakis, Cheenis, Myanmarese, Maldivians, would all be able to come and bum Dilli and the Mantri's new phlat will be phlat-splat, and not a thing they could do about it. So then the Requirement goes in along with a tear-out from said Glossy Magazine on what they would like. They take that to the EchAyEll and ADeeA and DeeArrDeeOh and say:

Can u supply sau-do-sau oph blanes suberior to these in next 2 years, hain?

where all THEIR requests for upgrade to this, experiment with that, new experimental facilities, ability to recruit better personnel... all have been met with or

How is this done in bhesht/SU/Japan/Cheen etc? I don't know about Cheen, but I think all these must have some smart people in their central long-term planning, and they don't just sit up in a tower with one thumb up their musharrafs and the other busy picking biscoots. There is a CONSTANT process of making sure long-term needs are planned LONG-TERM, and they actually DO what is needed to meet those long-term goals. While the media, commie pinkos etc are allowed to and all they want, these people keep at it. Every day, every week for years and years. There is a clear process both downwards to make sure people understand what is needed, and some means of capillary motion to get a LITTLE bit of intelligence up into the top reaches. Some of this is centralized, say, in the Pentagon, but most of it happens in places that are much closer to the people who do the work. This is why they are able to invest in "long-term" university research and convey the (totally false) notion that research is done "for its own sake" and out of "pure scientific curiosity". Let me assure you that every single project has to be justified somewhere on a PPT chart in quantitative terms as being worth x% in the Y% improvement that is going to happen in, say, climb rate, or range or fugacity or killing potential (I mean of the other side, not our own). The Liberal Arts people who go around with noses in the air on how their latest piskological project is aimed to help mental patients, are not told that their findings go towards a z% improvement in ability to extract names and phone numbers inside a dungeon or cause extreme pain without leaving a trace.

These are the people really behind the advancements. Their lives are not very comfortable: travel 50% to 80% of the time, with the joy of presenting to 3-star jarnails on the one hand and Brofejars with their hands stuck out for more $$, trying to sort out the peas from the BS all the time.

India has no such process (OK, waiting for the BS Showers of "V R Having That Onlee!" - I happen to know a bit more about reality than I sometimes let on). Too many projects are treated as a joke. Evaulation criteria rarely if ever say: "Hey these baccha/bacchee log actually ACHIEVED xxxxxxx!!" instead of how many papers they presented in internashunal conpherenjes. PHD Theses, which should contain the gems of new discoveries done with 4?7? years of the most intense effort, are SENT ABROAD FOR 'EVALUATION'!!!! Even from the IITs and IISc! (And a good thing too, because some are biss-boor in quality - my 6th coujin thrice removed, once had to send back one from IIT Kanpur, of all places to their Dean, asking that they get someone to actually read it for the first time b4 embarassing themselves by conveying the excellence of their procedures. Of course they never asked him again, probably sent their next theses to some gora who said: what do u expect? these are unwashed turd-worlders onee, and wrote "EXCELLENT" - even can write in broken english! as his comment). Problem in that case was that the professor was so mighty with all the Karod-Karod rupees he 'brought in' that mere petty tasks such as reading what his students were doing were waaay beneath him, and the rest of their Reading Committee were functionally illiterate if they approved that to send out to the External Examiner. IOW, blatant corruption all round.

Sorry for the OT, but getting back to Today's LCA - how many wind tunnels are in India, to develop indigenous aircraft? ( I mean larger than middle-school project sizes?) How many autoclaves where they can check how to make a part to a given spec, starting from scratch and compensating for thermal distortion? Can you please post at least pictures of an LCA model in an INDIAN university wind tunnel? Yeah, you will find stuff on '55-degree delta wing' from IITB aping tests at AFWL from 1995, aimed for the F-22. You will find stuff from IITK on Airfoil Dynamic Stall (how many 'airfoils' - a 2-D concept - actually fly?) The famous Indian contempt for hands-on experimentation and any real work, which the EyeEyeTeas beat out of us with the 2 years of Workshaap Gulag, is back in full force - 90% of Taap Ishtudantz claim that they do See Eff Dee with e-FLUENT or maybe some simulation - almost never anything really hands-on.

As shiv says, hands-on innovation is left to the kid with the torn shirt in the bicycle shop, or someone else who cannot get into so-called "Engineering School". There IS a little bit of sense to that ad about the kid in the bakery bringing his Talking QuadRotor UAV as demonstration of his genius.

One point about IAF fighter pilots: they are glorified as brave and skilled people - just like astronauts. It is useful to remember that the first (and hence most heroic) astronauts were Cosmonauta 1, and Astronaut 1 - and each operated the missions flawlessly, (pbuh). Building a combat UAV force using old designs such as HF-24 and Gnat may be a good sanity check all round. Say, a UAV Gnat with the canopy removed and a new engine that can send it supersonic, while retaining the amazing maneuvering. Putting that in direct exercises against an Ell Cee Yay might wake up the hotshot pilots to some realities on what will really happen if/when they ever come up against the Cheens or Maldivians.

[srin]

Mister LCA

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/2015_issue2 ... terLCA.pdf

Typical of Vayu. Wonderful opportunity to know more about the LCA from a guy who matters. And instead they'll ask that Prodyut Das to write his screeds. And coincidentally, there will be articles on how great Gripen is.

To know more about what Vayu thinks, you should listen to Pushpinder Singh in those Stratpost MMRCA videos. Completely dismissive of the LCA. I don't give any more credence to what is said in Vayu.

[Karan M]

Yeah and its no surprise either to see which country/plane put on a dog and pony show for Singh and his son.

[geeth]

^^^Regarding wind tunnels..IIRC there was only one hypersonic wind tunnel at VSSC and may be one transonic tunnel at NAL during my student days in.early eighties..often people used to go abroad for testing and experimental validation for which we pay through our nose. Babus dont mind paying for these foreign trips and tests but would not sanction new test facilities or resort to delaying tactics..kudos to the older generation for achieving what we have despite all these difficulties. Only Recently I saw a tender for a hypersonic test facility at DRDL which would cost a couple of HUNDRED crores..I think Israelis are doing it. I wonder why we cant design it ourselves..with critical systems being imported.

Back in the old days aeronautical engg was not a much sought after subject. People were discouraged also to some extent. Many from IITs went abroad. What was left was the core work force now and retiring.

IAF also played its part by not encouraging domestic R&D in aeronautical feild which they could have done. Instead they preferred foreign maal and they had always avoided Indian maal whereever they could. This is because the IAF is dominated by fighter pilots and they are incapable of appeciating what technology is all about. I may sound rude..but the reason why they are not able to.appeciate is, their education level is only that much. What would you expect from a person who join NDA after +2 and is trained to fly? Some of these guys have some kind of inferiority complex too..you would find it funny to hear standard statements like "you zee I got admission to IIT also..but I chose NDA" I used to believe it initially..but then, when you hear it too often, it leaves a lingering doubt. Iam not saying this to offend anyone..but it is a fact. One possible solution is to recruit Engineering graduates as pilots. I have come across couple of captains in executive branch of Navy and I understand from my colleagues their approach & reaction to technical issues are more positive. It seems they understand better and are more cooperative. Yeah..comparing Parrikar vs St. Antony.
.

[Karan M]

This is because the IAF is dominated by fighter pilots and they are incapable of appeciating what technology is all about. I may sound rude..but the reason why they are not able to.appeciate is, their education level is only that much. What would you expect from a person who join NDA after +2 and is trained to fly? Some of these guys have some kind of inferiority complex too..you would find it funny to hear standard statements like "you zee I got admission to IIT also..but I chose NDA" I used to believe it initially..but then, when you hear it too often, it leaves a lingering doubt. Iam not saying this to offend anyone..but it is a fact. One possible solution is to recruit Engineering graduates as pilots. I have come across couple of captains in executive branch of Navy and I understand from my colleagues their approach & reaction to technical issues are more positive. It seems they understand better and are more cooperative. Yeah..comparing Parrikar vs St. Antony.

You'll know far more than me about all this, having been there and done that.. but from the past few decades.. personal observations (caveat):
My take is that this is the British culture inculcated way back in our service DNA which needs to be fixed (sooner than later). British culture (for armed forces) was about bluff, hale and hearty british lads from good schools & breeding. Their "education" was in Latin/languages and all that stuff. On the other eng-in-eers were basically from lower class "working scots" and the academic types were "eggheads", "boffins". There was a certain disdain for the mechanically/tech astute guys - "wrench monkeys", "egg heads", "screw-balls"..
I have heard many of these same 1900-1940's era terms being used by otherwise senior "IA/IAF" (especially IA) commanders/jarnails even today!!
Needless to say these terms wouldn't be an issue but for the element of disdain involved.
Added to this is the civil-military distrust (again Brit cantonment system vs ICS bureaucracy morphed into Nehru khandaan + IAS vs IA etc). Since DPSUs come under MOD hierarchy there is also the anger against former which carries over.
Terms used "saale dhotis", "b***dy banias telling us what to do" and so forth.

Basically we inherited a system which was set up for a completely different era and are now in a completely different situation. We added more issues to it. The mindset has to change completely. Less said the better about cribs people have about the entire armed forces recruitment system which is perceived as opaque, discriminatory (so and so with his dad got in) and manages to drop people left right and center who'd have made excellent soldiers under the whimsy OLQ. Our entire system works because of everyday officers/soldiers who get the job done but there is a lot of detritus and organizational junk which is now entrenched.

[vina]

The IAF cannot simply be a elite Fi drivers club. They need to develop a separate culture that digs into engineering and technology.

Oh. I would LOVE it if the IAF jocks are like elite F1 drivers. The F1 drivers are nothing like the dumb cretins who drive at ridiculous speeds and ultra dangerously like wannabe Schumachers who infest the streets of Bangalore.

Rather F1 driving is an ultra technical scientific enterprise, with nothing left to chance and everything carefully choreographed. If you think thought it was the driving skills that mostly won F1s, WRONG. It is the vehicle engineering and the team tactics and strategy mostly.

During development, the F1 teams have dedicated test drivers who continously give feedback to the designers and developers on what worked, what didnt work for every small change or hypothesis/design that was implemented. How did the car feel like, how was the suspension, how was the downforce, how was the balance, everything and these days, the data logging and telemetry generated realtime by an F1 car will put a Ariane V launch to shame.

The engineers sitting in the pit tweak most things real time. Car not cornering properly ? Increase downforce by increasing the front and rear wing angle the car comes in for the 1st pit stop. Humdity higher than forecasted,do X.. etc. etc.

More importantly, the car is under continous improvement through the season. The car at the end of the season is a highly refined and evolved one, in many case very different from the car that came out at the start of the season. All this is a painful iterative development with every bit of aero, suspension,powertrain , engine tested out in windtunnels, dynamometers, test tracks, and then realising it in practice , getting it fielded , feedback taken, either improved upon or a new idea worked on.

If someone thinks that an F1 driver is a changu mangu cabbie dropped into a car's cockpit and let to go apesh* and he wins races by his Bangalore style bullying and idiotic driving skills, light years removed from reality.

In fact, if the IAF jocks ARE like the F1 drivers with the engineers and team, you simply CANT ask for anything more. That would be the ideal state.

[Viv S]

One possible solution is to recruit Engineering graduates as pilots. I have come across couple of captains in executive branch of Navy and I understand from my colleagues their approach & reaction to technical issues are more positive. It seems they understand better and are more cooperative. Yeah..comparing Parrikar vs St. Antony.
.

Well an engineering degree is now mandatory for all applicants aspiring to an officer's commission in any branch of the Navy, except for logistics (where MBAs & B Scs are also welcome).

Earlier short service commissions for pilot/observers were open to graduates from other fields but now even that has been restricted to only those with a BE/B.Tech degree. They may not actually apply what they studied in college directly, but nurturing a technical bent of mind, in what will one day form its senior staff, will reap rewards for the IN over the long term.

[shiv]

So then the Requirement goes in along with a tear-out from said Glossy Magazine on what they would like. They take that to the EchAyEll and ADeeA and DeeArrDeeOh and say:

Can u supply sau-do-sau oph blanes suberior to these in next 2 years, hain?

Unfortunately this is exactly what I think has been happening in India because people are so underinformed. Public. Underinformed. Press. Totally uninformed. The only information everyone has is "Phoren"= "achha/nalla/good"

No one looks at capability which has been under par for decades but we want to build future systems with no capability to build yesterday's systems. Instead of building capability we are buggering about and the IAF says "You guys are simply buggering about" The IAF stays aloof - they don't want to be accused of buggering about. The entire goddam national capability looks like it is manned by ignorant bums. I am referring to what has happened in aeronautics in the last 50 years - which I am summarizing in that sentence. The movers and shakers simply do not understand what it takes to build up the tech capability and no one to tell the IAF and babus and ministers to shape up and pull their thumbs out of their musharrafs. It is no one's fault and yet everyone's fault.

With respect I must point out that even on BRF, where we like to pat our own backs - there was a situation just 5 years ago when verbose members believed that plane designing and building is like car designing and building and simply calling in "the private players" would do the trick. Here we have an educated crowd. Imagine what politicians know - that is easier to imagine that what they don't know.

[Jagan]

Vina and Viv, the following snippet from Air Marshal Rajkumar who flew the Ajeet Trainer as a test pilot should answer why the Type Trainer was not a fit for AJT..

The aircraft was put through a limited high Alpha and spin programme. I did one spin test .... The aircraft did not enter a classic spin but gyrated wildly about all three axes and lost a great deal of height in the process. The test called for holding pro-spin controls for 20 seconds and by the time we initiated recovery we had descended below 30000ft in a steep nose down attitude. Recovery was prompt once controls were centralised and we finally levelled off at 20000ft. We repeated this three times in that sortie and never succeeded in entering a conventional spin.

I also flew two sorties at night to assess visibility from the rear cockpit during the approach and landing phase. The rear cockpit had a periscope with a very limited field of view and was useful only to line up with the flare path. Flare out and touchdown had to be done by craning one’s neck to the left to catch a glimpse of the lights to judge height. The landing lights were not too good and because of the high touch down speed and not so good brakes it was not a pleasant experience. On the whole the Ajeet Trainer gave valuable design experience to the Design Bureau and to that extent it was worth the effort. The product, however, was not a pilot’s aircraft.

Definitely not an aircraft you want to put rookie pilots in straight from the Kiran/Iskra..

The BR Pages on the Gnat and the 50 years of the Gnat seem missing . I can't find them anywhere. Google shows the links, but end up as deadlinks when clicked. The only place there is IAF Gnat info seems to be at Team Bhp!

Migrating them one piece at a time.. will come up in due course..

[deejay]

This is because the IAF is dominated by fighter pilots and they are incapable of appeciating what technology is all about. I may sound rude..but the reason why they are not able to.appeciate is, their education level is only that much. What would you expect from a person who join NDA after +2 and is trained to fly? Some of these guys have some kind of inferiority complex too..you would find it funny to hear standard statements like "you zee I got admission to IIT also..but I chose NDA" I used to believe it initially..but then, when you hear it too often, it leaves a lingering doubt. Iam not saying this to offend anyone..but it is a fact.
.

Geeth Sir .

But Seriously - yes there are some - IIT quit join IAF types - hardcore flyboys (but very few). We also have some Engineering officers (mostly old) from IIT. It is more true for even courses of NDA where straight out of school one appears both for IIT and NDA. Some people are 'plane' crazy for flying, more so for fighter flying. It is true. Fire in the A$$ - as some say.

However, it does not matter. IAF has ex NDAs and Direct Entries mixed intake in all flying streams. Plus given the work profile NDA training does not give any additional advantages. So there is no bias towards ex NDAs. Neither did I feel any strong ex NDA / non ex NDA grouping anywhere, if it even exists. BTW, some Direct Entry pilots I know are part engineers as they left their engineering courses midway. Maybe there are a few full engineers too. BTW, quite a few pilots will surprise you with their know - how in the technology scene.

Next, the serious studies or academic pursuits start only once you start flying. And then it is intense. I can assure you that if you are not studying regularly, you will be categorized as weak aircrew and will not go ahead. Even a non techie (BA) like me would occasionally sit with Resnik Halidays / Irodov's etc out of interest and not out of necessity. I had a senior who wouldn't quit till we solved his riddles and puzzles. Scientific Temper Trust me, a current IAF pilot will list out all practically all that is discussed here in Aerodynamics, Aeroengines, Navigation, Metereology, Aviation Medicine, etc, etc. While doing exercises with foreign Air Forces, a particular theme resonated as a feedback from the foreigners - You guys are too deep in theory. BTW, I think I was among the last of the breed. Now all pilots have to do BSC, ex NDA or not.

Again, as a rule, for a young pilot or a pilot fresh on type, CO's and Flt Cdr's are going to make life difficult till the 'noob' knows the aircraft backwards, its systems blindfold and has enough time with the ground crew to know turning which screw does what. I have spent hours in the sun just sitting on top of a Mi 17 (and this will extend to respective pilots on their types) in sun and dry heat even in Jodhpur with my groundcrew, seeing them turn the 04 screws that they were allowed to get the engines up to the desired power levels.

In the IAF at least, deriving Lift= CeeEll* 1/2RowVeesquared*Ess is just the start and continues on to understanding why the 7th stage of the compressor is bled from the engine for the airconditioner or the KO 50 heater. Don't ask me to list out because I have forgotten most of it. What I do remember is the number of aeroengines I have see open and also how the BRDs and TETRA schools would cut open the engines to teach us pilots what is what. Our tests would include making circuit diagrams complete with relays and cut outs for all the major systems. The technical familiarity then has to be repeatedly shown through tests with three independent examining bodies - the AEB, the CASI and the real boss log DASI. Ofcourse, in the mean time all pilots will regularly make presentations on all technical systems and any new developments in the field of Aviation.

I remember, a unit pilot going for his exam for selection in to the Test Pilot course was preparing a presentation on Ring Laser gyro where he was presenting the case of ZeroDer as a material for the RLG. I was his audience for all his practice presentation back in 2001 (IIRC). The said gentleman is an ex-NDA. I say this to point out that looking at this as lack of technical knowledge will be wrong as it is one thing that IAF prides itself, be it Fighters, Helicopters, Transports, UAV's, Missiles etc.

IMO, the problem lies elsewhere and here it is purely conjecture on my part. The best and the intellectual kinds rarely make it to the top. Most end up as Test Pilots and get absorbed by HAL. Very few move back. Those who come back find themselves competing with QFI's, FCLs, FSLs etc and here too the winner is the one who toed the boss's line. Very rarely does some sharp mind make it past Group Captain stage.

Most who go up are like one retired gent whom we keep discussing here. Loud, egoistic and lacking depth in any knowledge beyond flight ops (for the level they rise to). The serious thinkers any way manage to come up with enough discordant thoughts to get disqualified by the boss.

Even among those who rise, the IAF has spectacularly managed to find the not so 'sharp' chief. I mean even in recent years between the Chiefs we had and those who missed the bus, IAF would at least have benefited if likes of AM (Retd) Patni or AM (Retd) 'Jimmy' Bhatia had worn the mantle. Instead, they too fell to the wayside.

One possible solution is to recruit Engineering graduates as pilots. I have come across couple of captains in executive branch of Navy and I understand from my colleagues their approach & reaction to technical issues are more positive. It seems they understand better and are more cooperative. Yeah..comparing Parrikar vs St. Antony.

Broadly, I agree with the direction of your solutions. But instead of Engineer Pilots, I think, that our Engineering Officers are extremely well qualified to represent the IAF while it works with agencies like HAL. Instead of a pilot let the lead be in the hand of an Engineering Officer. With ASTE available and working with HAL, and Test Pilots working with these organisations regularly, I do not think the complaint is that these pilots do not understand technical nuances.

The issue is what the top level folks at IAF are doing and how are they treating this relationship.

Unfortunately, since the level of 'pleasers' who rise is very shallow, their act is also shallow. Instead of doing what is right for the IAF, they are basically doing what is right for themselves and their 'boys' and hence one fighter pilot makes way for the other.

P.S.: Please do not use this post to paint everyone there is at the top. In between are men who are really brilliant. Sorry, for long ramble but I thought I must jump in here.

[deejay]

The IAF cannot simply be a elite Fi drivers club. They need to develop a separate culture that digs into engineering and technology.

Oh. I would LOVE it if the IAF jocks are like elite F1 drivers. The F1 drivers are nothing like the dumb cretins who drive at ridiculous speeds and ultra dangerously like wannabe Schumachers who infest the streets of Bangalore.

Rather F1 driving is an ultra technical scientific enterprise, with nothing left to chance and everything carefully choreographed. If you think thought it was the driving skills that mostly won F1s, WRONG. It is the vehicle engineering and the team tactics and strategy mostly.

During development, the F1 teams have dedicated test drivers who continously give feedback to the designers and developers on what worked, what didnt work for every small change or hypothesis/design that was implemented. How did the car feel like, how was the suspension, how was the downforce, how was the balance, everything and these days, the data logging and telemetry generated realtime by an F1 car will put a Ariane V launch to shame.

The engineers sitting in the pit tweak most things real time. Car not cornering properly ? Increase downforce by increasing the front and rear wing angle the car comes in for the 1st pit stop. Humdity higher than forecasted,do X.. etc. etc.

More importantly, the car is under continous improvement through the season. The car at the end of the season is a highly refined and evolved one, in many case very different from the car that came out at the start of the season. All this is a painful iterative development with every bit of aero, suspension,powertrain , engine tested out in windtunnels, dynamometers, test tracks, and then realising it in practice , getting it fielded , feedback taken, either improved upon or a new idea worked on.

If someone thinks that an F1 driver is a changu mangu cabbie dropped into a car's cockpit and let to go apesh* and he wins races by his Bangalore style bullying and idiotic driving skills, light years removed from reality.

In fact, if the IAF jocks ARE like the F1 drivers with the engineers and team, you simply CANT ask for anything more. That would be the ideal state.

Sad! that you think it could be any other way. High performance machines cannot operate any other way. But yes, you only see the F1.

I would be surprised if IAF pilot are anything but this. It is not a choice in the IAF. It is as they say a 'tradition'. Yes, there are 300 men in our ground crew team so each day the ground crew could be different. But, if you come back from a flight and do not spend time with the ground crew working on the 'snags' the unit / sqn won't have aircraft to fly.

[Karan M]

Geeth Sir ...

x posting in best posts thread. Thanks for taking the time to share all this.

[member_20292]

The only information everyone has is "Phoren"= "achha/nalla/good"

Oho. But this part is quite true. Indian manufactured products do not , in general, have fit and finish that compares well.
I'll give you a recent example that may apply here. I was recently riding a Mahindra XUV500. I could see the interiors having a good colour combination, but the building materials and the finished angles, the plastic, the screws that held the plastic together, giving a cheap vibe.

So yes, Indian manufacturing, in general, having not seen the same boom that Indian IT has seen over the past few decades, does lag. And I can see people not wanting to buy Indian made products.

[abhik]

I don't see what IAF being run by fighter jocks(which airforce isn't?) has got to do with anything. Simple reason is that our political and military leadership lack strategic foresight.

[UlanBatori]

^^^Regarding wind tunnels..IIRC there was only one hypersonic wind tunnel at VSSC and may be one transonic tunnel at NAL during my student days in.early eighties..often people used to go abroad for testing and experimental validation for which we pay through our nose.

Geethji, a wind tunnel is basically a fancy-shaped duct with a motor and prop attached. Usually built with a frame and some sort of sheets in between. How tough can it be to build one? Takes a bit of room, sure, maybe an old hangar. But that was my point. Very little aerodynamics experiments actually done in desh, AFAIK. So forget about cascade rigs and actual rotating rigs. All take too much hard work, getting hands dirty etc. Too far beneath the noses of the Elite Classes.

[Karan M]

>>how tough

with all monitoring eqpt, i guess pretty tough as in expensive which means babu giri. c-17 offsets have a modern wind tunnel - 450 crores
claimed to be trisonic

>>Very little aerodynamics experiments actually done in desh, AFAIK.

we are short of facilities. LCA alone had 4k wind tunnel tests IIRC and missile guys had to go to russia and israel since everything local was booked up
on the plus side L&T built one for ISRO recently which was high mach #s.