PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

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Karan M
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Karan M »

Cosmo_R wrote: Agree on the self reliance part. But regardless of whether we have US weapons or not, in the past they have insisted on what we can and cannot do to Pakistan. Moreover, the LCA and AMCA are likely to have GE engines and that gives them leverage. So buying more American stuff is not likely to make us that much more vulnerable.
Having an engine imported is not equal to having the whole platform imported. You can hedge against issues in the former.
Buying complete platforms increases our vulnerability.
Going forward, I don't think they will interfere if we launch punitive missile or a/c strikes against the pakis. They will pressure us if the IA invades and tries to kill the PA. They also know GoI doesn't really want to start something that leads to scaring off foreign investment.
You may not think this, and that's ok but what if a SD guy/bigwig thinks otherwise? thats the crux of the problem.
Much of the same logic applies to nuke testing. They already have enough on us that buying more from them will not make us that much more vulnerable.
Having some on us doesn't make it good for us to give them even more leverage.
Personally, I think there will be a repeat of 1996—one more round of allowed testing. If not, maybe the Rafale deal is about being allowed to use the French laser ignition testing facilities.

IOW, nuke testing IMHO is not a factor in buying (or not) American.
Sorry, but that's unrealistic as there are significant legal issues from the American POV if we test again. We can't ignore that.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by member_28911 »

Image
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by member_23694 »

not sure if posted earlier. found it interesting. [let me know or feel free to delete if posted earlier]


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by darshhan »

While Pak fa might turn out to be a world beater in all other respects, my question is " Is it stealthy enough ? ". Have Russians even shared the radar signature data with us ? Too many doubts remain.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by member_28756 »

darshhan wrote:While Pak fa might turn out to be a world beater in all other respects, my question is " Is it stealthy enough ? ". Have Russians even shared the radar signature data with us ? Too many doubts remain.
It does not look very stealthy compared to other fifth gen fighters but like you said it could be a world beater in all other respect but then most of the good claims comes from the Russians.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by NRao »

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by chaanakya »

Karan M wrote:
Sorry, but that's unrealistic as there are significant legal issues from the American POV if we test again. We can't ignore that.
+1

if we want to test nuke again in future, we should be extremely cautious of collaborating with US in key areas.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Viv S »

darshhan wrote:While Pak fa might turn out to be a world beater in all other respects, my question is " Is it stealthy enough ? ". Have Russians even shared the radar signature data with us ? Too many doubts remain.
There's a big question mark on other aspects as well. One of them is the efficacy of the aircraft's EW suite and LPI features of the emitting components, an area where the Russians have a less than impressive record. Another is reliability/serviceability, which is a chronic issue with the vastly majority of Russian types.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by kuldipchager »

NRao

Post subject: Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

PostPosted: 05 Jun 2015 06:51



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for kicks

Russia's fancy new stealth fighter is in serious trouble



Mr.Rao it seems like you in Russia or you saw the problem.

It nice to have some problem now because if we solve the problem now is good for better for tomorrow.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by vishvak »

chaanakya wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Sorry, but that's unrealistic as there are significant legal issues from the American POV if we test again. We can't ignore that.
+1

if we want to test nuke again in future, we should be extremely cautious of collaborating with US in key areas.
"If we want to".. why bother limiting our own convenience, better test ASAP and see the knives come out. The same people who for decades have been enforcing sanctions against India, are not coming out of woodworks now when Saudis openly demand nukes from terror munna Pakistan. There is total lack of standards in behavior.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by koti »

Looks like the govt is trying to unblock the progress move ahead albeit some compromises.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /28730155/
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by NRao »

Like the Rafale deal, seems to be apolitical call:
koti wrote:Looks like the govt is trying to unblock the progress move ahead albeit some compromises.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /28730155/
India Compromises To Smooth FGFA Disputes

Ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Russia on July 7, the Defence Ministry is toning down points of conflict about the joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to reach final agreement with Russia, said an MoD source.

FGFA is proposed to be jointly developed and produced by India and Russia and a preliminary development agreement was signed in 2011 between Russia's United Aircraft Corp. (UAC) and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) when India paid its 50 percent share of US $250 million toward initial development cost.

However, a final agreement, which will release a payment of about $6 billion as India's share in FGFA development, has yet to be inked because of conflict over issues relating to work share, a firm aircraft order from the Indian Air Force, its desired mix of single- and double-seat aircraft, and changes demanded by the Indian Air Force.

The Defence Ministry wants to reach an agreement, will not insist on the Indian work share at this stage and will agree to delivery of single-seater aircraft as against the earlier demand of two-seaters, the source added.

A firm order of 154 FGFAs will also be included in the draft agreement, the source said.

Defense analysts said that despite the delays, the FGFA project will not be dropped.

"At this juncture, given the unfolding international geopolitics and Russia's fast-depleting defense export order books, it is highly unlikely that Russia would take a take-it-or-leave-it stand. FGFA is a landmark, collaborative, futuristic defense project that would doubtless benefit both countries," Kapil Kak, a retired Indian Air Force air vice marshal and defense analyst, said.

India-Russia FGFA collaboration benefits both counties, he said.

"Russia required FGFA for its industry to stay competitive with the Western systems, reduce development cost and guarantee an export customer; India saw it as a means to address the IAF–People's Liberation Army Air Force imbalance and impart a measure of resonance to its combat aircraft development programs."

A Russian diplomat here said India's concern about low work share can be addressed and its workload gradually increased as Indian industry is better able to absorb technology and produce components for the aircraft in the years ahead.

The FGFA is based on the Russian T-50 platform and is already in prototype stage for use by the Russian Air Force and could be inducted in 2016 or 2017.

India wants about 40 changes to the Russian prototype and has a preference for a double-seater.

However, the main sticking point has been resolving a dispute over an increase in India's work share in the FGFA from the current level of less than 20 percent to 50 percent. The increase in work share would help the Indian aerospace industry get additional orders for the fighter.

"Signing of the contract is mainly based on agreement on work share on research and development. While Russians have already taken the lead in this and the Russian prototypes are already flying, there appears to be deadlock on this aspect between HAL and Rosoboronexport on behalf of UAC," Daljit Singh, a retired Air Force air marshal, said.

"The work share would have to be finalized fast to get the project on track. Delay in this also dilutes the authority of the Indian side to have a say in major design of the aircraft. Final agreement can [be reached] if the contracts between the two agencies are signed," Singh said.

While defense analysts and Air Force officers agree on India's urgent need for the FGFA, they don't want the parameters recommended by the service to be diluted to rush the deal.

"Given that India entered the project after the FGFA design had been frozen and prototypes were flying, any changes would face constraints. But India is going ahead with plans to fit indigenous avionics, navigation-communication systems, aero-structures and other components," Kak said.

Singh says the essential features of the FGFA for both Russia and India will remain the same.

"The basic design of the aircraft is based on stealth, super-cruise and super-maneuverability features, and this would remain as the base design," Singh said. "Therefore aircraft structure and power plant would be the same for both air forces and that would also ensure lower R&D costs. The IAF would be looking at some of its own requirements of sensors, avionics and weapon carriage capability. These issues are required to be finalized and mutually agreed and then the project would move much faster."

However, Padamjit Singh Ahluwalia, retired Indian air marshal, said the service wants a greater share in development and production to give it an indigenous look.

"IAF questions the indigenous development aspect in this skewed ratio. The AL-41 engine, which is supposed to power the FGFA, is not yet developed. AL-31, which powers the Su-30 MK, is not capable of supersonic cruise. Avionics, including active electronically scanned array radar, do not have any visibility. ."

At this stage, does India have any other options?

"This appears to be an academic question at this stage. It is too late in the day for India to explore other options given the extreme complexity and huge costs involved in an FGFA program," Kak said. "The indigenous FGFA, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA], still on the drawing board, is an excellent alternative provided it follows a better trajectory than the delay-ridden indigenous Light Combat Aircraft project. An AMCA success would also signal the arrival of India on the global aerospace industry market as another manufacturer of FGFA aircraft after the US, Russia and China."

Ahluwalia offered various options.

"Considering the anticipated delay in the project and to avoid any shortfalls in the IAF force levels, the options include: develop the indigenous AMCA; LCA MK II development would be indicative of capability; consider increased procurement of Rafale or F-35; propose to purchase 18 T-50s off the shelf and subsequently assess the probability of success of the FGFA," he said.
Last edited by NRao on 17 Jun 2015 02:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by SaiK »

well in one of the idrw story, they say gov feels FGFA is a non-starter owing to issues with MKI problems/ crashes etc. could be political or strategic, but I think there is a genuine concern in Sukhoi designs..

remember, the rear is still the same! only the front changed, from a visual arm chair perspective. and that is exactly MSM arm chair and others pedal, given a slight acceptance of the problems within the scope of the project.

I do see engines are the big concerns.. the FGFA engines are not ready yet... and their rear is still showing exposed abdomen that could reflect & emit like crazy! the raptor boys must be laughing then. (just considering the cylindrical abdomen underneath is enough.. unless the russkies did something I was thinking (ask me) earlier).

I always doubt.. cause, russkies keep something for the next version, and make money with IAF already bought in by their expansive setup to build on top of what they already have. Mig upgrades are just an example... that only IAF will use, and even the russkies will not.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by VinodTK »

Russia to Begin Testing Three More Stealth Fighter Prototypes


PARIS — United Aircraft Corp. plans to deliver three more prototypes of an advanced stealth fighter jet to the Russian military for testing as early as next year, a company official said.

The president of the Moscow-based company, Yuri Slyusar, said three more of the T-50 PAK-FA, a fifth-generation stealth fighter made by United Aircraft subsidiary Sukhoi, will be transferred to the Russian air force in late 2016 or early 2016 as part of a test program.

“We can say that we are in the schedule and these three additional prototypes will allow us to greatly expand the testing program and do it faster,” he said through a translator during a briefing with reporters Monday at the Paris Air Show. “What we’re speaking about in the schedule is to deliver the first batch at the end of 2016, beginning of 2017 to the customer, the ministry of defense, so the aircraft demonstrate all necessary and design characteristics.”

That will bring the total number of T-50 prototypes to eight, according to a fact sheet distributed at the event. The PAK-FA first flew in 2011 and is designed to compete against such U.S. military aircraft as the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, both of which are made by Lockheed Martin Corp.

“Compared to the previous generation fighters, the PAK-FA combines the functions of a strike aircraft and a fighter, thus offering a number of unique capabilities,” the fact sheet states. “As the fifth-generation aircraft, it has an essentially new thoroughly integrated avionics package providing superior automatic control and intelligence support.”

While the T-50 has experienced some development challenges such as engine flameouts, the aircraft is performing well in tests, according to Slyusar.

“The aircraft demonstrates all necessary and design characteristics, so we can say that there is no risk in the program moving it forward and the aircraft meets all the specifications that were initially planned,” he said. “There’s no risk in delays whatsoever.”

The governments of Russia and India have partnered to develop an export version of the aircraft. Russian officials have trained their Indian counterparts and supplied with them data and software to work on research and development.

The Indian version of the aircraft “will have some differences from the Russian prototype due to specific requirements of the Indian air force,” the fact sheet states.

Unlike the previous Paris Air Show, when Russian aircraft such as the Su-35 dominated the skies and dazzled the crowds, the government doesn’t have any military aircraft performing at this year’s event largely because it wanted to focus attention on new civilian aircraft such as plans for a new wide-body airliner to be developed in collaboration with China.

Slyusar also said the company expects to sign a contract this year to sell 24 Su-35s for the Chinese military and is in talks to ink a deal to perform more maintenance work on Russia aircraft.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Vipul »

India Compromises To Smooth FGFA Disputes.

Ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Russia on July 7, the Defence Ministry is toning down points of conflict about the joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program to reach final agreement with Russia, said an MoD source.

FGFA is proposed to be jointly developed and produced by India and Russia and a preliminary development agreement was signed in 2011 between Russia's United Aircraft Corp. (UAC) and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) when India paid its 50 percent share of US $250 million toward initial development cost.

However, a final agreement, which will release a payment of about $6 billion as India's share in FGFA development, has yet to be inked because of conflict over issues relating to work share, a firm aircraft order from the Indian Air Force, its desired mix of single- and double-seat aircraft, and changes demanded by the Indian Air Force.

The Defence Ministry wants to reach an agreement, will not insist on the Indian work share at this stage and will agree to delivery of single-seater aircraft as against the earlier demand of two-seaters, the source added.

A firm order of 154 FGFAs will also be included in the draft agreement, the source said.Defense analysts said that despite the delays, the FGFA project will not be dropped.

"At this juncture, given the unfolding international geopolitics and Russia's fast-depleting defense export order books, it is highly unlikely that Russia would take a take-it-or-leave-it stand. FGFA is a landmark, collaborative, futuristic defense project that would doubtless benefit both countries," Kapil Kak, a retired Indian Air Force air vice marshal and defense analyst, said.

India-Russia FGFA collaboration benefits both counties, he said.

"Russia required FGFA for its industry to stay competitive with the Western systems, reduce development cost and guarantee an export customer; India saw it as a means to address the IAF–People's Liberation Army Air Force imbalance and impart a measure of resonance to its combat aircraft development programs."

A Russian diplomat here said India's concern about low work share can be addressed and its workload gradually increased as Indian industry is better able to absorb technology and produce components for the aircraft in the years ahead.

The FGFA is based on the Russian T-50 platform and is already in prototype stage for use by the Russian Air Force and could be inducted in 2016 or 2017.

India wants about 40 changes to the Russian prototype and has a preference for a double-seater.

However, the main sticking point has been resolving a dispute over an increase in India's work share in the FGFA from the current level of less than 20 percent to 50 percent. The increase in work share would help the Indian aerospace industry get additional orders for the fighter.

"Signing of the contract is mainly based on agreement on work share on research and development. While Russians have already taken the lead in this and the Russian prototypes are already flying, there appears to be deadlock on this aspect between HAL and Rosoboronexport on behalf of UAC," Daljit Singh, a retired Air Force air marshal, said.

"The work share would have to be finalized fast to get the project on track. Delay in this also dilutes the authority of the Indian side to have a say in major design of the aircraft. Final agreement can [be reached] if the contracts between the two agencies are signed," Singh said.

While defense analysts and Air Force officers agree on India's urgent need for the FGFA, they don't want the parameters recommended by the service to be diluted to rush the deal.

"Given that India entered the project after the FGFA design had been frozen and prototypes were flying, any changes would face constraints. But India is going ahead with plans to fit indigenous avionics, navigation-communication systems, aero-structures and other components," Kak said.

Singh says the essential features of the FGFA for both Russia and India will remain the same.

"The basic design of the aircraft is based on stealth, super-cruise and super-maneuverability features, and this would remain as the base design," Singh said. "Therefore aircraft structure and power plant would be the same for both air forces and that would also ensure lower R&D costs. The IAF would be looking at some of its own requirements of sensors, avionics and weapon carriage capability. These issues are required to be finalized and mutually agreed and then the project would move much faster."

However, Padamjit Singh Ahluwalia, retired Indian air marshal, said the service wants a greater share in development and production to give it an indigenous look.

"IAF questions the indigenous development aspect in this skewed ratio. The AL-41 engine, which is supposed to power the FGFA, is not yet developed. AL-31, which powers the Su-30 MK, is not capable of supersonic cruise. Avionics, including active electronically scanned array radar, do not have any visibility."

At this stage, does India have any other options?

"This appears to be an academic question at this stage. It is too late in the day for India to explore other options given the extreme complexity and huge costs involved in an FGFA program," Kak said. "The indigenous FGFA, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA], still on the drawing board, is an excellent alternative provided it follows a better trajectory than the delay-ridden indigenous Light Combat Aircraft project. An AMCA success would also signal the arrival of India on the global aerospace industry market as another manufacturer of FGFA aircraft after the US, Russia and China."

Ahluwalia offered various options.

"Considering the anticipated delay in the project and to avoid any shortfalls in the IAF force levels, the options include: develop the indigenous AMCA; LCA MK II development would be indicative of capability; consider increased procurement of Rafale or F-35; propose to purchase 18 T-50s off the shelf and subsequently assess the probability of success of the FGFA," he said.

Fcuking Russians!!!, Screw the A**Ho**s. :x
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Singha »

We cannot fix the pakfa with merely su30 type work because we do not have a large or even small aesa fighter radar and super cruising large engine.

It's best to produce 60 more super30, abandon the pakfa and plough all funds into the amca which at least has uttam under works and some assurance that 414 ng will meet thrust needs.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Viv S »

NRao wrote:India Compromises To Smooth FGFA Disputes

The Defence Ministry wants to reach an agreement, will not insist on the Indian work share at this stage and will agree to delivery of single-seater aircraft as against the earlier demand of two-seaters, the source added.
What an utter and complete farce! Considering the PAK FA for direct import or license production is fine, but why the hell should we help fund its development without receiving any substantial work-share? And when I say work-share I mean x% by value of every aircraft delivered to the Russian Air Force and export markets, not just the IAF units.

One can only hope that the MoEA's desire to make the PM's Russia visit a 'success' doesn't take precedence over military and economic realities of the situation.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by NRao »

This is a Modism. A very discomfortable one at that.

I think the risks - especially with the engine - are just too high. Not yet convenienced that IAF will get what IAF needs.

Yikes.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Singha »

Looks like even.117s engine is not in mass production
Russia’s state technology corporation Rostec will showcase an engine for its famous Sukhoi Su-35 (Flanker-E) at the world’s oldest air show in France, the company said on Monday.Some 37 Russian organizations are expected to be among 2,000 participants from 46 countries at the week-long 51st Paris Air Show at Le Bourget Airport kicking off on Monday.

“We expect the professional community to devote a lot of attention to the AL-41F1S (Izdeliye 117S) engines installed on Russia’s multifunctional Su-35 fighter aircraft,” a corporate representative told RIA Novosti.

The new engines, it was explained, are intended to serve as transitional engines for fifth-generation jet fighters and will be manufactured by a Rostec subsidiary, the United Engine Corporation (ODK).

The Paris Air Show will feature a 1-3 scale mockup of the bypass turbofan engine with a thrust-vector-controlled afterburner designed for Su-35/35S jets.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Austin »

Seems like its the same defence news that mentioned Indo-Russia was close to signing FGFA deal last december and nothing materalised ..or was it Janes.

Looks like every body is clueless on FGFA as its tightly guarded by both the sides , so every one makes its own news to sell.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by NRao »

Possible.

The July visit, after all, is a SCO meeting. I would think that India-Russia will not talk about their own plans at such a gathering. ?????
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by ramana »

GD, I see India as only a paying customer at this stage. Our own track record does no give much leverage.

Sure they give 30% more and who and what will be produced and used where?
And what does the IAF 40 changes to requirements :eek: mean? Are they in same vein as 93 improvements to Arjun by IA. which doomed it.
Do they vet the improvements before making demands?
The plane is ready for induction in two years and now IAF wants two-seater which means complete redesign or reduced capability by removing stuff for second pilot.

Do they have more combat challengers then Russia?
BTW Ahluwalia options are non-existent or dead on arrival anyway.
Considering the anticipated delay in the project and to avoid any shortfalls in the IAF force levels, the options include: develop the indigenous AMCA {Fat chance :rotfl: }; LCA MK II development would be indicative of capability{Being done and LCA II is not PAK_FA or FGFA :eek: }; consider increased procurement of Rafale or F-35{Fat chance :eek: !!!}; propose to purchase 18 T-50s off the shelf and subsequently assess the probability of success of the FGFA, {What is this supposed to do :P !}" he said.
Looks like he just wants a plane, any plane.

I think one can learn form IAF how to sabotage a plane and become nanga baba.
Truly advaitists. Not this not this.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Nick_S »

In 2015, the first two sample engine of the second stage for the PAK FA will be produced.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1345874.html (/ Google tl - https://translate.google.com.au/transla ... t=&act=url )

'second stage engine ("article 30") will be up to a maximum thrust of 16,000 kg or more "
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Hobbes »

Saurav Jha has some updates on Twitter:

* Not an inch should be yielded in FGFA negotiations.
* After what has happened with Armata the Russians know that they don't have much bargaining room on the PAK-FA/FGFA.
* The FGFA is a game changer in Asia. It will allow India to establish air superiority rather quickly if deployed in the hundreds.
* Expect 300 + FGFAs to serve in the Indian Air force in the future. There will also be an improved FGFA.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Kailash »

Awesome pics. What is that big crack in the second pic?
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by NRao »

Not a crack. An expansion joint. It is part of the design. If and when the article encounters high temperatures, the article needs to expand.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Philip »

Caution should be exercised.Get 2 sqds first as with the Rafale.Evaluate them then decide upon future avatars.154 is a v.expensive proposition. Upgraded MKIs in large number will help the numbers problem . Difficult job to balance capability edge and healthy numbers vs China.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by tushar_m »

We can order 18-36 PAK-FA of Russian version as well like the su30mk

"i" could be added later on when our pilots get proper training & maintenance guys get idea of this aircraft.

One thing i must say that the sqd. will not become fully ready when russians/HAL deliver PAK-FA/FGFA.
The sqd. will be come active when pilots & ground staff become expert on this new fighter which may take 1-2 years if not less.

we could get some number of PAK-FA to make this 1-2 year acceptance period little bit early maybe 2018-19.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by srin »

We don't have the proven capability to create a fifth-gen figher period. And PAK-FA/FGFA is crucial for us against the PLAAF.
That said, our goal should be to have full understanding and control over the FGFA. Keep the PAK-FA planform and change the avionics, FBW - everything that we need to change. Start manufacturing a few PAK-FAs and then switch to our FGFA.

So, to have any say in the FGFA, we'll need to test the PAK-FA prototypes here in India. Without prototypes, no understanding.
Better yet, we need the PAK-FA test data - otherwise, we'll be forever in the dark on the design aspects.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Pratyush »

I find it amusing when I read about the proven ability to design the 5th gen fighter. No one before the actual design had that ability. The currently flying 5th gen designs are a result of the studies from the respective AFs needs and how easy or difficult it would be to meet those requirements.

If the IAF has its own requirements, then it will be able to share with the Indian R&D establishment and they try to execute it. Else they are as it is going with the PAKFA.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Kailash »

NRao wrote:Not a crack. An expansion joint. It is part of the design. If and when the article encounters high temperatures, the article needs to expand.
Just curious - are these features consistent with stealth? The american 5th gen birds look like they are built with much better tolerances and surface finish.
RKumar

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by RKumar »

Hobbes wrote:Saurav Jha has some updates on Twitter:

* Not an inch should be yielded in FGFA negotiations.
* After what has happened with Armata the Russians know that they don't have much bargaining room on the PAK-FA/FGFA.
* The FGFA is a game changer in Asia. It will allow India to establish air superiority rather quickly if deployed in the hundreds.
* Expect 300 + FGFAs to serve in the Indian Air force in the future. There will also be an improved FGFA.
I know IAF wants fifth gen fighter but how to maintain and fund a fleet of double engine fighters. It may break GoI coffer, to support around 300 Su-30 MKI, 36-72 Rafale, 300+ FGFA (Assuming it will replace some Su-30) and 300+ AMCA (Replacing other mix of planes).

I think IAF to think clear and hard what they want to do.
- IAF will not have even single long range bomber.
- What roles and numbers UAVs will fill
- I think GoI should invest only in two programs out of Rafale, FGFA and AMCA. They have to have strike one out. And don't leave whole decision on IAF, give them choice between Rafale and FGFA.
brar_w
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by brar_w »

Pratyush wrote:I find it amusing when I read about the proven ability to design the 5th gen fighter. No one before the actual design had that ability. The currently flying 5th gen designs are a result of the studies from the respective AFs needs and how easy or difficult it would be to meet those requirements.

If the IAF has its own requirements, then it will be able to share with the Indian R&D establishment and they try to execute it. Else they are as it is going with the PAKFA.
Things have to fall in place and that is a gradual process that starts decades before one even knows what the NG fighter or any other advanced weapons system will look like...

Here is the component history of the F-22 (brief one anyhow)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6203&start=1880#p1798501

What you will see if you follow that was that the precursors to the F-22, in terms of the 'capability' whether that was advanced processing, integrated circuits, gallium arsenide AESA radars (including the technology base to mass produce them economically) were leading the program by close to a decade - more for certain other areas. Also stealth was no longer someone's wet dream, it was being actively developed and tested at Groom lake and was being refined in the F-117 and B-2 production programs. Even now for sixth generation, the USAF does not have a 100% idea of what the 6th generation will look like (they are in the process of developing requirements and will be in the process for the next 5 or so years) but they know what technology needs to be developed, where the industrial base needs to be at, and what sort of long lead R&D investments need to go in NOW to get rewards in the 2030's be it Adaptive engines, Gallium Nitride production base and supply, Extremely potent staring sensors, IR stealth and advanced data links.

I just wish that before moving on to the AMCA, ADA would have developed a tech demonstrator to de-risk some of the technologies. Perhaps modified an LCA with weapons bays for example so that they could work out and test supersonic weapons launches (it was a big deal in the ATF days and when they were done with the ATF they were confident enough so that they could eliminate that requirement from the JSF X-planes) or develop a sub-scale stealth demonstrator as the Japanse are doing...It would surely make things smoother.
Last edited by brar_w on 19 Jun 2015 21:53, edited 1 time in total.
Singha
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Singha »

I think our domestic funding control from political side was so messed up, domestic MIC has this habit of making huge promises to grab all the work they can without a clear long range product plan like you outlined..because who knows when govt will change its mind , so lock it in while you can.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Cain Marko »

All this cribbingand demanding should have been thought of years earlier, iirc the rusins wanted Indian involvement (read money ) when the bird was still on the drawing board. But as usual MOD and even IAF woke up only after pv was flying. I might be wrong but at that stage what real design work share can be had?

The thing to do now is go the Su 30 mki route..and save money where possible le, dunno what this 6 billion is about. ..
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by NRao »

I might be wrong but at that stage what real design work share can be had?

The thing to do now is go the Su 30 mki route..and save money where possible le, dunno what this 6 billion is about. ..
IF they opt for teh single seat PAK-FA (granted with a few modification internally), then you are right, not much to nothing for "work share". But if it were the two-seater FGFA, then there is plenty - that should/would be a brand new plane, granted based on the PAK-FA/T-50.

The MKI was the "FGFA" of its time, in that the Su-27/30 was totally redone - as suggested for the FGFA. So, the "FGFA" would be the "MKI" we are familiar with. And, to complete the transition from the PAK-FA/T-50 to the FGFA would cost a creeping $6 billion (started as $5 billion, then went to $5.5, now $6 billion).

The way I see it is that the Russians (Sukhoi) needs the billions from India. But only the "FGFA" can command that kind of a price - not the PAK-FA. ??????
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by brar_w »

Whats the point in funding the PAKFA when you can buy it outright? and then spend the big bucks to create a unique v 2.0 when the design, production and technology is more mature and costs less. That sort of an arrangement makes sense if you actually get design work which you cant since designed prototypes are flying atm. It would also make sense if the market demand is in the thousands ala the JSF where partners such as Britain can get huge amount of work for RR and other suppliers (that stretches out decades) by making a $2B or so contribution to the development.
Last edited by brar_w on 19 Jun 2015 22:55, edited 1 time in total.
NRao
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by NRao »

Too much FUD.

Will wait and see what happens after Modi gets back from Russia. Betting not much on the FGFA front.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread - June 2014

Post by Philip »

One Q that has puzzled me,why the IAF obsession with twin-seat aircraft? Surely as avionics get smarter,the needfor a second pilot reduces and it simply adds to the life-cycle cost all the way down to an extra family to support,pensions,etc.
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