Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

[Vipul]

Upgraded submarine INS Sindhukirti to boost Navy’s flagging fleet.

India will finally get a desperately­needed shot in the arm for its depleting underwater combat fleet. With INS Sindhukirti set for final "full­power trials" from Friday after being stuck in a refit for a decade, the Kilo­class submarine is expected to be formally
handed over to the Navy next month.

The 3,000 ­tonne INS Sindhukirti's re­induction into the fleet is vital since the Navy is down to just 13 old dieselelectric submarines ­ barely half of them fully operational at present ­and one nuclear­powered submarine with out nuclear­tipped missiles on lease from Russia.

A submarine's design or "prescribed life" is considered to be 25 years. But 10 of the 13 conventional boats are already older than that, with the others not being far behind. INS Sindhurakshak, which sank after internal explosions at Mumbai naval dockyard in August 2013 killing 18 personnel, was in fact one of the relatively newer submarines.

As reported by TOI earlier, the medium refit of the 25­year­old INS Sindhukirti, which was to be completed within three years, itself is a shocking story . Gross mismanagement, coupled with alleged perfidy by Russian experts, ensured the submarine remained stuck at Hindustan Shipyard (Visakhapatnam) since early 2006.

But the submarine is "as good as new" now, with hull renewal as well as new weapons, sonars, fire control systems and the like. The vessel will now also be capable of firing the almost 300­km Klub­S land­attack missiles from the six torpedo tubes fitted on its "nose".

"The full­power trials, after the successful sea­trials, are meant to test the submarine to the extreme," said a source.
The NDA government, however, does not seem to be showing the requisite urgency to rescue the sinking submarine arm, much like the previous UPA regime. The tender for construction of six new stealth submarines with foreign collaboration, under Project­75India, is still nowhere close to being issued, said sources.

Once it is floated, it will take at least a decade to build the new submarines, which are supposed to have both land­attack missile capabilities and air­independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance. Project­75I gained "acceptance of necessity" way back in November 2007 at an estimated cost of around Rs 50,000 crore. The figure will now touch Rs 80,000 crore.

The six Scorpene submarines being constructed at Mazagon Docks are now finally slated for delivery from 2016 to 2020. But they will just replace the existing submarines, which are being flogged well past their operational life through life­extensions and upgrades.

Incidentally, four Sindhughosh­class and two Shishumar­class submarines are now slated to undergo mid­life upgrades and life
extensions for Rs 4,800 crore, which was approved in August last year. Two of the Sindhughosh­class vessels will be upgraded in Russia,while the other four will undergo it in India.

[Karan M]

Another Rajat Pandit farticle.

>>and one nuclear­powered submarine with out nuclear­tipped missiles on lease from Russia.

Oh, the horrors. We have an Akula without nuclear tipped missiles. Useless, completely useless

>>>The NDA government, however, does not seem to be showing the requisite urgency to rescue the sinking submarine arm, much like the previous UPA regime.

Perhaps they don't want to make the same gaffes.

Oh wait, they don't care which is why:
Incidentally, four Sindhughosh­class and two Shishumar­class submarines are now slated to undergo mid­life upgrades and life
extensions for Rs 4,800 crore, which was approved in August last year.

Is there a be dumb, write dumb academy which most of our journos have to attend and then take refresher classes in?

[NRao]

Word count ka zamana.

[Hobbes]

Excellent article from Saurav Jha in Swarajya: How To Neck The Necklace

Key excerpts:

While the Gulf of Aden operations may have crystallized the Chinese leadership’s thinking in favour of obtaining permanent basing rights to sustain a maritime presence near vital sea lines of communication, China is as yet not capable of positioning a fourth fleet (the CN has three fleets at the moment) for operations in the IOR. Nor can it currently claim access to enough sizeable bases in the IOR, Gwadar notwithstanding, to support any such hypothetical element. So whatever “pearls” China can string along in the IOR, besides serving to replenish rotating surface ships, will, for the foreseeable future, be used to support submarine deployments as a key offensive element. In the event of conflict, Chinese submarines may be used to interfere with Indian sea lines of communication, and threaten land-based targets with cruise missiles. They will also complicate deterrent patrols for Indian nuclear ballistic missile submarines (SSBN), even in peacetime.

The IN’s maritime patrol aircraft while on long range patrols are known to find and buzz Chinese ships even when they are sailing south of the equator. Despite the CN now possessing much bigger multi-role ships with decent anti-air warfare capability, it is unlikely that China has the confidence to take on the IN in the IOR with a surface ship-heavy force. Moreover, India also has the capability to bottle up a CN surface fleet entering the northern IOR via a strategic channel such as the Strait of Malacca.

China will instead focus on the underwater domain, where the IN is sorely lacking in platform numbers at the moment vis-a-vis the Chinese. The IN today has only 15 submarines, 13 of them conventional diesel-electric types (SSKs), one nuclear attack submarine (SSN) and one SSBN, the INS Arihant, that is right now undergoing final sea trials before induction. As opposed to this, the Chinese possess over 50 SSKs, 5 SSNs and 4 SSBNs and are building more of all types. Granted not all its submarines are modern or of the same quality, the fact remains that China has boats to spare for patrols in the IOR. And since 2013, “contact” with both Chinese nuclear and conventional submarines have been made by the IN near Indian waters.

It is noteworthy that Chinese submarine operations in the IOR seem to coincide with the INS Arihant’s progress towards final induction and deployment on nuclear deterrent patrol. Chinese SSNs operating in the Bay of Bengal will definitely make matters difficult for the Arihant and its follow-on boats to find sanctuaries wherefrom they can launch their nuke-tipped ballistic missiles at targets in the Chinese mainland if it ever came to that. SSBNs such as the Arihant after all need to lurk undetected in deep waters waiting for orders to launch their missiles in a retaliatory nuclear second strike while on deterrent patrol. The continuous presence of Chinese SSNs however means that the IN will have to adopt a “bastion” approach to protecting the Arihant and its successors. This would involve the use of both existing surface based ASW forces as well as future SSNs inducted by the IN.

India’s only operational SSN, INS Chakra, would very likely be part of the shield protecting the Arihant to keep it safe from enemy SSNs. The IN currently plans to lease another SSN or two from Russia and build six more indigenously. However, even with these numbers, it could find itself somewhat constrained in terms of being able to spare enough SSNs for diverse long-range missions other than providing a screen for India’s underwater second strike capability, if Chinese nuclear submarines were able to significantly increase the frequency of their patrols in the Bay of Bengal.

The Chinese submarine threat of course manifests itself in the form of SSKs as well. While SSKs bearing the Chinese flag could operate regularly out of future Chinese bases in the IOR, the bigger de facto Chinese SSK threat will come via Pakistan’s forthcoming acquisition of eight air-independent propulsion-equipped submarines to be license-produced at the Submarine Rebuild Complex in Ormara, near Karachi. Gwadar, however, is the fulcrum around which a joint Pakistani-Chinese reconnaissance-strike complex in the northern Arabian Sea is being orchestrated. China has helped Pakistan set up a very low frequency (VLF) facility for communicating with submarines in Turbat, north of Gwadar.

Technology naturally has to play a very big role in the Indian riposte to Sino-Pakistani plans. Chinese submarines are known to be optimized for anti-surface warfare and are not that capable in ASW, given the limitations of Chinese sonar and other sensor technology. Sonars are however an arena where India has traditionally had great domestic competence despite the recent issues with developing cutting edge low-frequency active-towed array sonars. Those issues have now been overcome and India must look to deploy contemporary thin-line towed-array sonars on all its submarines, something Chinese submarines currently lack.

India will also have to invest in an indigenously developed prototype sea-bed array system whose efficacy has already been demonstrated. Though expensive and power-consuming, this sea-bed array system can be a game changer in terms of locating and identifying submarines in strategic locations around the Indian Ocean.

In fact, this sea-bed array system has to become an integral part of Indian maritime domain awareness in the IOR which already consists of a satellite-enabled multi-sensor, multi-location network.

[Austin]

Lift ban on blacklisted co for torpedo deal: Navy

With the first Scorpene INS Kalvari set to head for year-long extensive trials this August, Navy has pressed the panic button of "critical operational necessity" for the acquisition of 'Black Shark' torpedoes from Finmeccanica subsidiary Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquel (WASS).

All fresh deals with Finmeccanica are banned under the graded blacklisting norms notified for the conglomerate in August last year due to the fallout of the infamous VVIP helicopter scam, in which another of its subsidiaries AgustaWestland was the accused.

[Philip]

In retrospect,the IN desperately wanted a new carrier,Gorshkov was the best option at the time,to preserve its carrier aviation capability.The US even refused to sell us the vintage Skyhawk carrier aircraft for Vikrant,etc! Britain had abandoned a supersonic STOVL bird,instead sold the Harrier's tech to the US ,who produced their improved version in the hundreds for the USMC,still serving with distinction decades later. The USMC even bought early retd. RN harriers lock,stock and barrel not too logn ago,where they will serve at least until 2025,when enough replacements of JSFs are available.

[Kakkaji]

With eye firmly on China, India to hold naval exercises with Japan, Australia, Myanmar and others

NEW DELHI: India may still be reluctant to invite Japan, Australia and others to join its top-notch Malabar naval exercise with the US this year, in part because China protested against such a multilateral naval grouping in the Bay of Bengal the last time around. But it does not mean there is no strategic game plan underway.

Sources on Friday said India will hold a flurry of bilateral naval exercises over the coming months with countries in the critical Asia Pacific region, ranging from Australia, Japan and Indonesia to Sri Lanka, Thailand, Myanmar and Singapore. Interspersed with them will be exercises with the US (Malabar), UK (Konkan) and Russia (Indra), with the one with France (Varuna) already being held in Arabian Sea in April-May.

[Pratyush]

Lift ban on blacklisted co for torpedo deal: Navy

With the first Scorpene INS Kalvari set to head for year-long extensive trials this August, Navy has pressed the panic button of "critical operational necessity" for the acquisition of 'Black Shark' torpedoes from Finmeccanica subsidiary Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquel (WASS).

All fresh deals with Finmeccanica are banned under the graded blacklisting norms notified for the conglomerate in August last year due to the fallout of the infamous VVIP helicopter scam, in which another of its subsidiaries AgustaWestland was the accused.

What about the Varunastra, and the domestic HWT They cant be used with the French Boat?

[tsarkar]

Varunastra is designed to fit Russian TT that are longer than Western TT, so wont fit on Kalvari.

It will equip Arihant, Akula, Sindhughosh classes.

Like Astra required to replace R77, Varunastra is urgently required to replace Russian torpedoes designed in the last century.

[Pratyush]

So how long will it take to develop a new torp, based on the guidance and propulsion developed for Varunastra. Surely, if the problem is of the dimension, then the solution is in repackaging it.

No. Or I have totally lost my marbles.

[chaanakya]

Lift ban on blacklisted co for torpedo deal: Navy

With the first Scorpene INS Kalvari set to head for year-long extensive trials this August, Navy has pressed the panic button of "critical operational necessity" for the acquisition of 'Black Shark' torpedoes from Finmeccanica subsidiary Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquel (WASS).

All fresh deals with Finmeccanica are banned under the graded blacklisting norms notified for the conglomerate in August last year due to the fallout of the infamous VVIP helicopter scam, in which another of its subsidiaries AgustaWestland was the accused.

Another IED in making for NaMo Govt .

[Aditya G]

Excellent article from Saurav Jha in Swarajya: How To Neck The Necklace...

Most articles including this one inevitably highlight IN's low submarine count as the main issue in addressing PLAN submarine threat.

The solution for a submarine a ASW ship, helicopter or LRMP.

The low hanging fruit for us is to order a batch of 12 Kamortas with HUMSA-NG, ATAGS. ASW heptr will come in due course.

Next up, develop a C-295 based MR aircraft.

[tsarkar]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Vis ... 357959.ece

Pic of missile retrieved after test firing.

@Pratush - not just dimension but also interfaces.

It'll be easier to develop a new torpedo to fit Kalvari tubes using the know-how of Varunastra.

[Kersi D]

The US even refused to sell us the vintage Skyhawk carrier aircraft for Vikrant etc

What I understand is that the US Skyhawk required a longer / stronger catapult than was fitted / to be fitted on HMS Hercules. The British refused to fit the longer / stronger catapult to ensure that we cannot use the US Skyhawk and WE HAVE NO OPTION BUT TO BUY the British Seahawk.
Kersi

[Kersi D]

Excellent article from Saurav Jha in Swarajya: How To Neck The Necklace...

Most articles including this one inevitably highlight IN's low submarine count as the main issue in addressing PLAN submarine threat.

The solution for a submarine a ASW ship, helicopter or LRMP.

The low hanging fruit for us is to order a batch of 12 Kamortas with HUMSA-NG, ATAGS. ASW heptr will come in due course.

Next up, develop a C-295 based MR aircraft.

And continue for another 6 Scorpene
K

[Cosmo_R]

..
Next up, develop a C-295 based MR aircraft.

K

Might be cheaper to order more P-8Is than to develop something on the C295

[andy B]

..
Next up, develop a C-295 based MR aircraft.

K

Might be cheaper to order more P-8Is than to develop something on the C295

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... epatrolai/

[Aditya G]

The C-295 has both maritime recon and ASW versions in service. Its what ICG and IN wanted.

[andy B]

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... epatrolai/

Some further info on the MPA version of the 295.

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/02/f ... r-options/

[srai]

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... epatrolai/

Some further info on the MPA version of the 295.

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/02/f ... r-options/

C295 MPA Palletized Version

[Singha]

boeing has offered a 'austere' version of P8I for the MRMP tender. not sure what austerity measures are proposed as the air frame is the same. probably the torpedo bay and ASM firing pylons will be deleted and maybe even the sonobuoy launcher..same for ESM...in favour of a more surveillance oriented role with radar and EO pod similar to the dornier but much faster and higher endurance.

the opex of the CN295 will likely be lot less than a P8I though.

I would say instead of more manned MRMP for just surveillance role, we should invest in Herons, Rustom2 and BAMS.....these have way more endurance and sport similar sensors if all we want is a search platform.

and then get some short-chassis C130J with the ER fuel tanks for CSAR over the sea...given them to the CG. kit them up with the dornier AMOSP also. murica weather service routinely flies them through the teeth of typhoons to gather data....rugged beasts that can take a beating and keep on ticking.

addl benefit is marcos units can also utilize as parachute platforms to dunk chariots and stuff into the sea before jumping out themselves. (atleast if my expert reading of the 1983 movie 'navy seals' was right)

[Philip]

Too expensive.CG needs "low and slow" aircraft,even amphibs for SAR.C-295 a better choice.

The TOI article about Chinese subs now operating out of Karachi needs a fire lit under the backsides of the MOD/DM to equip asap thye IN with more subs,leased,bought,built,whatever.DEbating exotic carrier tech for the future large CV is well and good,but the acute urgency for nthe IN is meeting the combined Paki-Sino challenge underwater,where we are at a disadvantage.

[svinayak]

http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy ... t-carriers

India to get US help with aircraft carriers
HIROYUKI AKITA, Nikkei senior staff writer

Part of the framework calls on the two nations to jointly develop mobile electric hybrid power sources and next-generation protective ensembles.


Chinese carrier the Liaoning © Xinhua/Kyodo
The deal is expected to encourage U.S. defense contractors to enter India, amid mounting tension in the South China Sea due to China's island-building activities there.

The cooperation package also includes a low-profile but possibly a bigger favor for New Delhi -- assistance for aircraft carrier design and construction.

The joint statement, issued June 3, says Carter and Parrikar "agreed to expedite discussions to take forward cooperation on ... aircraft carrier design and construction... ."

Rear Adm. Tom Moore, the program executive officer for aircraft carriers, will lead the U.S. Navy contingent in working with its Indian counterpart on carrier design.

Moore has long worked in design and construction of aircraft carriers and is an expert in the field. "We've got a series of meetings with them coming up," Moore told the U.S. Naval Institute News. "They are interested in obviously learning from us big picture stuff about how you start from a clean sheet of paper and what are the processes used to build a carrier."

The U.S. Naval Institute News is published by the U.S. Naval Institute, a nonprofit organization with no government support.

The U.S. Navy is a global leader in aircraft carriers, seagoing airbases that can carry numerous aircraft. It boasts 11 carriers, enough so that the U.S. can have a naval presence anywhere in the world at a moment's notice.
Aircraft carriers are expensive yet critical assets. They also require high levels of operational expertise, much of which only comes from experience. So the decision to transfer prized aircraft carrier technology and knowledge to India was a tough one for Washington.

Currently, India owns two aircraft carriers -- the Viraat, a hand-me-down from the British Royal Navy, and the Vikramaditya, purchased secondhand from Russia. The Viraat, which has served for 56 years, is slated to have a grand farewell next year.

India's navy is currently building its first made-in-India aircraft carrier, although the deployment will probably be delayed until 2018. This is where the U.S.'s technical assistance could be useful. With U.S. know-how, India would be able to accelerate the launch of its domestically made carrier. New Delhi is also mulling whether to design and make another carrier at home.

According to an Indian security analyst, the Pentagon has been encouraging India to build its naval strength and expand its sphere of influence. It is concerned China's navy may be seeking to expand its reach into the Indian Ocean, the analyst said.

[Cosmo_R]

On C295, when you add in all new infrastructure and training, the number might be quite different. But hey, the Viky was free.

[suryag]

Too expensive.CG needs "low and slow" aircraft,even amphibs for SAR.C-295 a better choice.

The TOI article about Chinese subs now operating out of Karachi needs a fire lit under the backsides of the MOD/DM to equip asap thye IN with more subs,leased,bought,built,whatever.DEbating exotic carrier tech for the future large CV is well and good,but the acute urgency for nthe IN is meeting the combined Paki-Sino challenge underwater,where we are at a disadvantage.

yeah we know what that means order the Amur or some Russian junk double hull nonsense that they will say is for free but will charge an arm and leg for when it comes to maintenance ... ohh wait they helped us since time immemorial so why not keep getting their help for everything

[Karan M]

LOL, SuryaG eggjactly.

[Singha]

maybe even a line of n-powered Kilos using the tea kettle concept.

[Philip]

Good,buy some more ultra-expensive non-Klub Scorpenes-without AIP at $700M+,when Kilos with Klub are available at $300m a pop! Alternatively,one can buy German subs at around a similar price,but we'll have to wait for at least 4-5 years before the first arrive. Reg. Russian subs,Kilos,etc. were operated for decades by the IN and one never heard of any major problems with maintenance,spares ,etc.,until the era of the "lost decade" of defence thanks to the UPA and AKA! It was during AKA's decade of dereliction of duty that our subs had to be cannibalised for batteries,leading to the fire and fatalities on a Kilo,plus other reprehensible acts of omission and commission. Today,Russia is the only country that can help India in immediate sub acquisitions,both nuclear and non-nuclear,and the lease of a few Russian subs is of paramount importance, which even a mainstream paper also recommended in its editorial today,when PM Modi visits Russia.

Sadly,it has all come to pass.When I repeatedly warned about the Chinese "take-away" of SL and its major plans for the IOR over a decade ago,I was "pooh-poohed" by most "experts" saying it would never happen.They are now sucking their thumbs and running around like headless chickens not knowing what to do. Even US naval experts have been confounded with the massive growth of the PLAN ,esp. its sub tech drive,both in capability and numbers.All was kept a dark secret. The US and its allies are now on a firefighting spree to counter the massive Chinese naval challenge,which as far as a decade ago was given the highest priority of the Chinese military. A sat pic of a secret Chinese mini-sub has just been released. The Chinese may have more tricks up their sleeve.We were caught not just napping but have been in a comatose condition reg. the crisis in our sub fleet. The much touted US high-tech for future carriers is of a premature nature.Even if approved today,this future large CV will arrive a decade later.

The subs are needed as of the "day-before-yesterday",as presence of PLAN subs in the IOR operating out of Paki ports is now of a permanent nature.
The Pakis want "parity" with India at least in sub capability using asymmetric methods,AIP subs with N-tipped missiles as its own second strike leg of the triad.The IN has to plan for at least 36 subs,preferably 40-50 for the future to sanitise the IOR from both Paki and PLAN subs,secure our SSBNs and maintain a forward offensive presence in the Indo-China Sea to prevent a "break-out" of PLAN maritime forces into the IOR through the chokepoints.

Mini submarine captured on satellite photo of Chinese dockyard
http://www.news.com.au/technology/innov ... 7419643477

Xcpt:

Island enclosure


While geography poses a challenge for submarine forces in Asia, China may be seeking to turn that to its advantage.

Ships of all kinds must pass through narrow straits to enter Chinese waters from both the Pacific and Indian Oceans. The Indonesian Malacca, Sunda and Lombok Straits are natural ‘choke-points’ to the Indian Ocean. Then there’s the Luzon Strait between the Philippines and Taiwan, and the island chain including Okinawa between Taiwan and Japan.

China established its naval strategy in the 1980s when Admiral Liu Huaquing defined a “First Island Chain” (line stretching from southern Japan to the southern Philippines) as well as a “Second Island Chain” (From northern Japan, Guam and down to Indonesia) as being ‘constraints’ on Chinese power.

His stated objective was for the People’s Liberation Army Navy to have established dominance over the “First Island Chain” by 2010, and the “Second Island Chain” by 2020. Many see China’s land reclamation projects in the South China sea to establish a string of military bases in disputed territory as the embodiment of this strategy.

One advantage of this approach is to create an enclosed ‘sanctuary’ to protect its nuclear missile submarines.

It’s also why the US fears China will declare a new “air defence identification zone” over the South China Sea — enforced by combat jets operating from the new island bases — in the same way one was imposed over the East China Sea in 2013.

[amit]

Good,buy some more ultra-expensive non-Klub Scorpenes-without AIP at $700M+,when Kilos with Klub are available at $300m a pop! Alternatively,one can buy German subs at around a similar price,but we'll have to wait for at least 4-5 years before the first arrive.

Just curious Philip. Can you buy a Kilo sub in a Russian supermarket and bring it home with you? Are their readymade Kilos in Russian showrooms?

How soon do you reckon a Kilo can be had? Especially one with AIP since you seem to object to the fact that Scorpenes don't have AIP?

I wish somebody would gift you a new record to play!

[Austin]

3 Warships Launched, 48 on Their Way, Says Top Navy Officer

Kolkata, West Bengal: As three new warships join maritime services in Indian Navy, a top navy officer has said that another 48 of them are currently under construction in various shipyards across the country.

They include aircraft carriers, frigates, destroyers, submarines, corvettes and fast attack crafts.

The Vice Admiral, P Murugesan launched three Water Jet Fast Attack Crafts (WJFAC), or warships at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd. (GRSE) in Kolkata today.

Mr Murugesan said, "It is a proud reflection of our indigenous capabilities that we are building all kinds of warships. GRSE has so far built 94 ships for the navy".

The warships launched today are ideally suited for interception of fast-moving surface craft, performing anti-smuggling operations, fishery protection, search and rescue operations.

Powered by the latest 4,000-series MTU engines with advanced machinery control system, the ships will be fitted with CRN-91 indigenous 30mm guns and will have the latest communication equipment and radars to enable effective surveillance.

These warships launched are named after the Andaman and Nicobar group of islands, Tarmugli, Tillanchang and Tihayu.

[Kersi D]

Can some experts give us the complete (as far as possible) list of AIP equipped submarines, in service with the various navies ?
As far as I recollect, Sweden (Stirling engine), Germany / S Korea (PEM cells), Pakistan (MESMA system) and Russia (Amur 1650) have AIP systems. And the the MESMA system is NOT used by their designers France.

Can some experts give us the complete (as far as possible) list of anti-ship and/or anti-land attack missile equipped submarines, in service with the various navies ?
As far as I recollect, Germany / S Korea (Type 214 / 216 - Exocets), Pakistan (Agosta 90B - Exocets) and Russia (Kilo - Klub) have missile systems

AND

Can some experts give us the complete (as far as possible) list of anti-ship and/or anti-land attack missile equipped AIP submarines, in service with the various navies ?

So which design will the IN opt for the P 75I project ?

K

Exclude the n subs. Errors and omissions expected !!

[NRao]

I think the cheapest path would be to buy Klubs with AIP and upgrade them to Kilo. ????? $20 mil for original platform, another 5 for upgrade.

[Kersi D]

I think the cheapest path would be to buy Klubs with AIP and upgrade them to Kilo. ????? $20 mil for original platform, another 5 for upgrade.

Sorrrrry. cannot understand your statement "buy Klubs with AIP and upgrade them to Kilo."

Do you mean we buy Kilo with AIP (Russian or Indian ? ) and equip them to fire Klubs ?

K

[Philip]

Vietnam placed orders for 6 new Kilos in late 2009.The 4th has just been delivered by heavylift merchantman,the 5th undergoing sea trials in Russia,6th launched and all bought at a cost of just around $300M! Russia has several advanced Kilos in service-is building more of them,apart from the two Amurs which at one time were offered to us on lease,so reported.There are also several Akula-2s in service apart from the Kashalot ( a "lot of cash",say some )which is reportedly to be completed for the IN. Therefore,if we need immediate replacements through leases,Russia is the only option. Unless we dramatically increase our sub "portfolio",we will not be able to prevent Chinese shipping through the M straits,while they try and do the same to us for our oil supplies basing themselves at Gwadar.

The problem with old U-209s,which may also be available is that their anti-ship missiles are inadequate,only Harpoons or Exocets,neither of which are supersonic like BMos,or even the terminal warhead of Klub,reported speed M3.0+

[Singha]

AIP equipped subs seems to be:
Agosta90B - TSPN - MESMA, offered on scorpene as well
sweden - something from kockums - "stirling engine", kockums has a large design A26 iirc. but their record with collins was spotty. electric boat groton had to be called in to fix some problems.
s80 - spain - bio ethanol + fuel cell
U214 - widely exported - malaysia, soko, turkey, greece...siemens "pem" fuel cells
soryu - used swedish system, shifting to Li-ion batteries now

so kockums(now saab defence), HDW, navantia, DCN and mitsubishi are the main players in the global SSK export market.

the japani li-ion thing if it works would be best perhaps for durability and safety..always a concern for any underwater system....li-on batteries are now the dominant ones in airborne also i think..dreamliner has them....these puppies have to power backup systems in case of multi-engine failure...and some like actuators need a lot of pushing power to move control surfaces.

[Karthik S]

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... meet-soon/

In a major push to bilateral defence cooperation, an Indo-US working group on aircraft carrier technology is likely to meet next month, diplomatic sources told The Indian Express. India and US had decided to form a working group “to explore aircraft carrier technology sharing and design” during President Obama’s visit to Delhi this year. This was again reinforced during the visit of US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter to India earlier this month. - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... IMaac.dpuf

It is believed that Indian Navy has already completed the technology assessment, feasibility studies and analysis of alternatives for joint development of an aircraft carrier, tentatively christened INS Vishal. It is currently believed to be working on engineering design of the warship. The Defence Acquisition Council had approved Rs 30 crore as seed money for this project in April. Former US State Department official and senior associate at Washington-based Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Ashley Tellis had penned a monograph in April arguing for joint development of a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier. “Working in concert to develop this vessel would not only bolster India’s Naval combat capabilities but would also cement the evolving strategic bond between the US and India…,” Tellis wrote. Sources said the two projects, agreements for joint development of Mobile Electric Hybrid Power Sources and the Next Generation Protective Ensembles, have been notified to the US Congress. - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... IMaac.dpuf

[Philip]

Just flipping through recent mags/statements from the CNS,etc.,the IN has decisively plumped for the 6 SSNs that it wants. This is very welcome,as no conventional AIP sub can compare with an N-sub in terms of endurance,speed, weaponry carried,etc.It is only in the shallow waters of the littorals that it comes off second best to smaller AIP subs,but even here,equipped with SDVs and UUVs,an SSN/SSGN can operate staying out of shallower waters. The Russians have also supposedly developed a MK-2 of the Shkval rocket torpedo,far more lethal then the original version. carried by our SSN/SSGNs,it would provide a very potent weapon to be used against enemy subs. Therefore,the speed with which the IN finalizes its design for the SSN is of paramount importance,as it would then also determine the size/power of the N-reactor.

However,as can be gauged,we need both SSNs as well as SSKs,which come cheaper.What we do in the interim to augment the crisis in falling numbers is a moot point as there are few options available. As a member said in an above post,there is no "supermarket" where one can buy a sub off the shelf! This is why there are hopes that Mr.Modi's visit to Russia will open up some options for the IN.

From the ET:Russia's Admiralty Shipyards: The facility where many Indian submarines have been made
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | 2 Jul, 2015,
Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

[Kersi D]

Vietnam placed orders for 6 new Kilos in late 2009.The 4th has just been delivered by heavylift merchantman,the 5th undergoing sea trials in Russia,6th launched and all bought at a cost of just around $300M! Russia has several advanced Kilos in service-is building more of them,apart from the two Amurs which at one time were offered to us on lease,so reported.There are also several Akula-2s in service apart from the Kashalot ( a "lot of cash",say some )which is reportedly to be completed for the IN. Therefore,if we need immediate replacements through leases,Russia is the only option. Unless we dramatically increase our sub "portfolio",we will not be able to prevent Chinese shipping through the M straits,while they try and do the same to us for our oil supplies basing themselves at Gwadar.

The problem with old U-209s,which may also be available is that their anti-ship missiles are inadequate,only Harpoons or Exocets,neither of which are supersonic like BMos,or even the terminal warhead of Klub,reported speed M3.0+

After the Gorshkov and other "scams" who can truct the Russians on their price and delivery commitments.

Of course it is the fault of IN for not checking each and every cable and so teh Russian had to charge us some few million US$.

And as soon as we contact the Russian will say the IN Kilos are going to be special so the price is US$ 300 +++++

[andy B]

AIP equipped subs seems to be:
Agosta90B - TSPN - MESMA, offered on scorpene as well
sweden - something from kockums - "stirling engine", kockums has a large design A26 iirc. but their record with collins was spotty. electric boat groton had to be called in to fix some problems.
s80 - spain - bio ethanol + fuel cell
U214 - widely exported - malaysia, soko, turkey, greece...siemens "pem" fuel cells
soryu - used swedish system, shifting to Li-ion batteries now

so kockums(now saab defence), HDW, navantia, DCN and mitsubishi are the main players in the global SSK export market.

the japani li-ion thing if it works would be best perhaps for durability and safety..always a concern for any underwater system....li-on batteries are now the dominant ones in airborne also i think..dreamliner has them....these puppies have to power backup systems in case of multi-engine failure...and some like actuators need a lot of pushing power to move control surfaces.

GD minor correction Malaysia uses Scorpene subs from DCNS two I beleive were delivered.

[Philip]

Come on Kersi,be realistic.The Gorshkov was a one-off deal. In retrospect,it was very poorly detailed and negoitiated,especially as it was originally built in the UKR which reportedly couldn't even hand over all plans of the ship.The issue has been flogged to death and the carrier is now in service with the IN for well over a year without any major problems,the most potent force in the IN's fleet.If one wants to talk about bad deals,what about the Scorpene sub scandal and its ever increasing pricing and repeated delays for brand new subs not a complicated conversion of a cruiser-carrier into a regular flat top?!