IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 02 Aug 2015 19:29

The French are expecting to secure an order for 36 aircraft and repeat the process. What better way to negotiate?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2015 19:59

Bhaskar_T wrote: Is this Lifafa article? Not being covered by any media or twitter.

You got it right. Pure lifafa.

Our defence reporting is full of dubious characters who make up and write lies.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Aug 2015 20:11

in a pure gunfight even a Mig21 is a hard customer with slash and run attacks.

but as a operational weapons system it is nowhere in the f-15 class.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Aug 2015 20:23

Singha wrote:in a pure gunfight even a Mig21 is a hard customer with slash and run attacks.

but as a operational weapons system it is nowhere in the f-15 class.

Good point Singha..Years ago there was an image of a German F-4F with Rafale kill markings..There is the famous T-38 HUD video with the F-22 in its gun sight..There are also claims by typhoon pilots about the Viper that give it plenty of respect in certain envelopes. However I seriously doubt that anyone with half a brain would rather be in an F-4 (against a rafale), T-38 (against anything that is operational and combat ready) or the F-16 (against a modern advanced fighter)..As the last article from the veteran pilot claims, any given day anything can happen..but you don't count on that luck, opponent error as a matter of doctrine..If it happens, it happens...

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 02 Aug 2015 20:24

‘Make in India’ for 90 medium combat jets

In another major step towards self reliance in the defence sector, a plan is being finalised to produce 90 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in India, informed sources said. A Request for Proposal (RFP) is expected to be drafted soon after the new Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) comes in place.

Expected to be one of the biggest projects under the Make in India campaign, the cost of the programme is expected to be around $30 million, the sources said.

The Indian Air Force requires 126 MMRCAs. With India getting into an agreement with France to get 36 Rafale fighter jets in flyaway condition, there was a lack of clarity on how the rest of the gap will be filled. The sources said that now these remaining jets will be made in India, in what will be a major step in domestic manufacturing of such aircraft.

According to the sources, the air force does not have enough squadrons in the event of a joint war with Pakistan and China.
“An RFP is expected to be drafted soon for making 90 MMRCAs in India. A global tender will be floated. The private sector will also have an active participation,” said an official from the defence ministry.

As many foreign bidders were in the race when India set out to buy 126 MMRCAs, for which Dassault Aviation, the makers of Rafale, was finally chosen, the sources said all original bidders will be invited.

The list of fighters that were in competition for the MMRCA bid included Russia’s MIG-35 (RAC MiG), Swedish Gripen, Dassault, American Lockheed Martin and Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon made by a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian firms. The sources said that out of the 90 aircraft, 54 will be single-seaters and the remaining 36 tandem-seaters.

There will be an option of acquiring 45 additional fighters as a follow-up order.

The Indian Air Force is expected to be down to 32 squadrons by the end of this year, 576 fighter jets short of the 750-strong fighter jet fleet required as per vision documents to face simultaneous two-front wars with Pakistan and China.

At least three squadrons of the vintage Soviet origin MiG-21 and MiG-27 single engine aircraft are scheduled to be phased out.
Source : IANS

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Aug 2015 20:47

^^ Must be another way to get Gripen inside as many has suspected , should be bad news for Tejas and goes against what DM said that they would put the money for MMRCA on Tejas Mk2 program

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2015 20:48

tushar_m wrote:‘Make in India’ for 90 medium combat jets

Source : IANS

[/quote]

Fake news. We have been discussing this nonsense for 7 years and just 2 days ago the 126 aircraft tender was cancelled and now some presstitute is making up this story

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 02 Aug 2015 22:52

After posting only i saw IANS

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Aug 2015 02:12

Dunno. Too many intersecting interests. The IAF needs and were promised 126 planes for sure. That much we should agree on. The cancellation were for the Rafale. This news item means that 90 May or May not be Rafale. And, why is it that if the Gripen can participate that the LCA MK-II cannot? It is a global tender. India falls in global I would hope.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Aug 2015 02:48

let me know which fighter gets chosen in 10-years time!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Aug 2015 05:31

Parikkar has just said that negotiations for 36 Rafales will take one month, and the govt has announced that the order for 126 has been cancelled,

Who exactly, other than Parikkar or GoI has now announced this "upcoming" RFP? IAF? Saab? Boeing? Or some Pressitute?

The picture I get in my mind is of a reporter pestering a babu for news to fill his quota for the day and they have a talk over a drink and speculate and it becomes headline news. Other media pick it up because they have the same problem - the need to fill up some column space with serious sounding stories. I will mark this post with a series of characters that will enable me to find it again. In three months if this RFP has been announced I promise not to post a word on BRF for 30 days

Here is the character string to locate this post
&&&&&&&

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 03 Aug 2015 05:39

If there is an RFP, please do not open a thread for it. It should be completely ignored on BRF.

We wasted 10 years on the MMRCA thread. Let's not waste another 10 years on the MMRCA-v2 thread.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Aug 2015 05:44

As I said earlier: Dunno.

I am compelled by the fact that the IAF has a great need. Now, how is that need going to fulfilled I have no clue. But, 90 planes make sense. Make in India makes sense. And, this gov doing what is needed to get those planes makes sense. I am inclined to believe this tantalizing rumor - cannot say it will happen. Should not take too long.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Aug 2015 05:45

please do not open a thread for it

It will be in production befoe you can think of opening one.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 03 Aug 2015 06:08

This news in only reported by ToI. I didn't see it anywhere else. So take it with a huge pinch of salt.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Aug 2015 06:10

RIP LCA! Long live imported, Make in India Rao Sahab. What a farce.

The LCA is ready. It can provide the numbers. But no, we need imports. SDRE Indians cannot see beyond their lungis! So Imports are needed!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Aug 2015 06:35

If we assume the report is true (I believe it is not) then there is nothing to say

If the report is false, the question is "Who would gain by faking such a report?"

I don't have a clear answer, but one major gainer would be people within the government apparatus. I am not talking about people in power, but simply people lower down in the chain with "contacts" higher up. The report could be a "plant".

A report like this will cause hundreds of foreign company reps to start probing for more information and most will be ready with money, gifts, parties for people who might get them information. So a PA or a secretary or some government functionary who knows someone who regularly meets Parikkar or who sits in on MoD briefings will "be available" to dig into the issue and give little titbits of information and get bottles of scotch, a girl or two etc.

I would not give this report any more credibility than that, but I make this post to point out how dirty the corridors of power are. We who have read how Barkha Dutt used to interact with Niira Radia etc should be able to read between the lines and see where journalists, rich company representatives, medium level government functionaries interact in the presence of socialites in the 5 or 7 star environs of Delhi to find out info that would make them more money.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2015 07:02

brar_w is that F-4 a wild weasel? seems to have a peculiar pod on centerline.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Aug 2015 09:59

There was a report about a week ago saying that the IAF had asked for "one more sqd." That would make a grand total of 54+,costing us around $10B. Appox. the original fig. budgeted. It looks like the IAF want to squander the entire 126 aircraft budget on less than half the number .Where will the rest of the numbers come from?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 03 Aug 2015 10:31

^^^I was recently talking to someone in a company that works closely with the defence establishment. It seems that the Rafale is a "done deal", and will be signed in this financial year.

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 03 Aug 2015 12:05

tushar_m wrote: Expected to be one of the biggest projects under the Make in India campaign, the cost of the programme is expected to be around $30 million, the sources said.
Source : IANS

As they say in consulting "Need I say more". Sorry for cross posting.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Aug 2015 12:40

Another MMRCA tender?!

Another farcial round of intense evaluation which will end with the winner being announced in 2020,by which time that bird too will be unaffordable! The IAF will have to cart out the museum pieces and send the retiring MIG-21s to Russia for another "rebirth" as "Grand-Bisons"! Or why not retro-production of HF-24s? There are new engines available today which could fit the bill. HAL has a lovely HF-24 in the museum .

The obvious solution is staring the GOI/MOD/IAF in the face,but there seems to be a disease in the ranks of the IAF which is crying for new toys like a spoilt child. The GOI/MOD should allot the IAF a specific sum/budget solely for its strike fighters/replacements (not the other needs like AEW,tankers,trainers,etc.) and offer it some options (extra aircraft already in service like MKIs,MIG-29s,second-hand M2Ks,LCAs,whatever ) and let it choose. After it decides,no crying later on like Oliver Twist for "more".

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Aug 2015 14:51

Singha wrote:brar_w is that F-4 a wild weasel? seems to have a peculiar pod on centerline.

The pod looks like the AN/ALQ-101 jammer, which even air-air or air-ground configured phantoms carried routinely.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2015 14:56

this will be called the A-MRCA tender - A:affordable.
onlee those MRCA costing less than $30 mil empty and $50 mil loaded will be permitted to come for evals.

I hear the JF-17 is the only contender in the range

so by default it will win and HAL can license build.

track2 faithfuls will be happy as it will be a huge CBM with TSP and finally all of russia, china, tsp and india will be under one tent as a happy family.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Aug 2015 15:07

On a positive side, if its $30 million per aircraft then only one aircraft qualifies..HAL should issue a press statement

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 03 Aug 2015 15:18

shiv, this is not such a bad thing. All MMRCA shenenigans over last 6 months have achieved one key objective, that is to remove HAL dependency. Lot of the complexity and delay in negotiations were because of doubts over HALs ability to deliver in quality and in quantity. HAL had been too busy trying to rake in tax-payers money while taking ego-trips such as with IJT. It is the single biggest obstacle to efficient production of LCA.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Aug 2015 15:39

^^^

It was mostly due to costs. At over $200 million per aircraft (plus extras for ToT, weapons and other infrastructure costs) 126 Rafale were simply unaffordable. Overall costs were reaching the $30 billion mark.

member_29112 · Post by **member_29112** » 03 Aug 2015 17:11

Why jump the gun based on some random article in TOI quoting unnamed sources?
Remember when some people did the same rona-dhona when the Swedish defence minister vistied India? It was all RIP LCA and crap like that. Calm down, Parrikar has repeatedly said LCA will be inducted in large numbers.
He isn't Saint Anthony, trust him.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Aug 2015 17:44

Having been through pages and pages of MMRCA, I fully understand the disbelief, etc. I get that.

However, this GoI has been doing two things that stand out on military topics: they have made relatively quick decisions and they have been plugging the gaps (that could be debated, but that is my view).

With that in mind:

* Unless the GoI wants to be a second class nation, the LCA will be funded to completion. I just do not see the GoI has any other option
* This gov has funded some 6 nuke boats, is funding a carrier, and some 200 ship navy. Army is getting her share of guns, etc. Much more needs to be done, but FAR better than the previous leadership. Even for the the transport they broke the single vendor rule!! Hardly a gov that is not aware
* One more tender? Yes, that is the way India operates - tenders, no single vendor, etc. *Indians* need to change that if there needs to be a change. Do not expect some gov official to do that. Laughing at the system is laughing at yourself. That is *you*

* I have no clue what is really happening, but can see 90 planes in the pipeline - soon. The IAF needs them and this gov is painfully aware of it.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 03 Aug 2015 17:44

brar_w wrote:
Singha wrote:brar_w is that F-4 a wild weasel? seems to have a peculiar pod on centerline.
The pod looks like the AN/ALQ-101 jammer, which even air-air or air-ground configured phantoms carried routinely.

GD this will be the Luftwaffe F4F Ice phantom upgrade with apg65 and amraam upgrade.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Aug 2015 17:52

NRao, at what costs though? The costs of 90 MRCA (plus ToT, offsets, weapons, customizations, infrastructure, etc) will easily exceed the $20 billion mark. If we look at the "cheapest" option as provided by France (i.e. same cost as its own air force) 36 Rafales manufactured in France is being priced around $8 billion. Bottom line is there isn't that much money for one acquisition.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Aug 2015 18:02

Thanks Andy..Here is another closeup showing the kill markings. The engagements were at Frisian Flag 2008

Of course any half brained combat pilot would know which aircraft is better and would choose the rafale on any given day..However what these encounters show is how little "Respect" there is for technology when it comes to a close in, guns only fight. There is a reason its compared to a knife fight in a phone booth. Even with HOBS and HMD's at best technology can give you a marginal advantage. In the end its about tactics and training so if you as an operator want to have considerable advantage in capability (To paraphrase in the loop " At the end of a war you need some aircraft left, really, or else it looks like you've lost") you invest in areas where that technology gets you that advantage. This explains why all with the technology base are investing a disproportionate amount of money in things like long range RF and IR sensors, stealth, sensor fusion, BVR weapons, Electronic warfare and directed energy weapons...Essentially to get that advantage !!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Aug 2015 18:14

at what costs though? The costs of 90 MRCA (plus ToT, offsets, weapons, customizations, infrastructure, etc) will easily exceed the $20 billion mark. If we look at the "cheapest" option as provided by France (i.e. same cost as its own air force) 36 Rafales manufactured in France is being priced around $8 billion. Bottom line is there isn't that much money for one acquisition.

The question is a political one. Does India want to be a "power". IF she wants to be then the funds will appear. Where did the funds for 3-4 nuke subs come from?

Then there is teh topic of what is a "Rafale" worth. Which is a diff thread.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Aug 2015 18:38

^^^

You can't be a "power" by buying foreign military wares. Especially not when 70% of your defense is through imports. When war comes, you will run into issues with supplies, geopolitics and others like price racketing by foreigners. Defense is about balancing between land, naval and air requirements with a given budget (usually in the 2%-4% of GDP range). Indigenous SSNs fulfills naval needs and it will not be able to get that many from abroad. When it comes to air, MRCA requirements could be fulfilled in a much cheaper fashion--go for more of what the IAF already has (or will have) Su-30MKI (long-range projection @ $75 million/unit) and LCA Mk.1/2 (fill-up numbers to police border areas @ $30 million/unit). You can get 2 MKIs and 2 LCAs (or 3 MKIs or 6 LCAs) for the cost of 1 Rafale @$200 million+/unit. Here are some simple calculations:

For 1 billion dollars, you get:

5 x Rafale, or
15 x Su-30MKI, or
30 x LCA

For 3 billion dollars, you get:

15 x Rafale, or
45 x Su-30MKI, or
90 x LCA

For 6 billion dollars, you get:

30 x Rafale, or
90 x Su-30MKI, or
180 x LCA

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Aug 2015 19:05

You can't be a "power" by buying foreign military wares.

Very true.

But, it is what it is. Unfortunate. But that is what it is.

It is very, very complex. How do we balance between delivering a quality product, on time, under budget when the entities responsible for the delivery do not have that ability is a lot of cases?

Dunno. No simple answer. But the imports do have quality, delivery time, but cost is an issue.

But this is a universal problem, not one that is unique to India. Look at Russia as we post. All caps problems. In red. Such is life.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Aug 2015 20:38

hsrada wrote:Why jump the gun based on some random article in TOI quoting unnamed sources?
Remember when some people did the same rona-dhona when the Swedish defence minister vistied India? It was all RIP LCA and crap like that. Calm down, Parrikar has repeatedly said LCA will be inducted in large numbers.
He isn't Saint Anthony, trust him.

On cue. Some more for you.

Will Sukhoi Design Bureau get RFP for MMRCA 2.0?

MMRCA 2.0 should be in the new thread name. : )

member_29112 · Post by **member_29112** » 03 Aug 2015 21:15

NRao wrote:
hsrada wrote:Why jump the gun based on some random article in TOI quoting unnamed sources?
Remember when some people did the same rona-dhona when the Swedish defence minister vistied India? It was all RIP LCA and crap like that. Calm down, Parrikar has repeatedly said LCA will be inducted in large numbers.
He isn't Saint Anthony, trust him.
On cue. Some more for you.

Will Sukhoi Design Bureau get RFP for MMRCA 2.0?

MMRCA 2.0 should be in the new thread name. : )

And this one is top notch.

Many defence analyst who spoke to idrw.org , belief that Request for Proposal (RFP) soon to be drafted and send to foreign bidders seems like a predetermined move and Ministry of defence and Defence minister Manohar Parrikar already might have shortlisted candidates since aircrafts which are likely will be offered to India like Russia’s MIG-35 (RAC MiG), Swedish Gripen, Dassault Rafale, American Lockheed Martin F-16 and Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon made by a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian firms have already been tested by Indian air force and in great detail technical and performance deficit have been recorded .

Ignoring the terrible English, there isn't a single fact in the article. It is a story built on some other story.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Aug 2015 22:35

IDRW, enough said.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Aug 2015 01:26

I'd say, go from the order of list MMRCA got selected upto Rafale.
Ask Rafale (L1) if they can do the 90 MMRCA as #MakeInIndia. Give them exactly 1 month to respond. failure to respond or specs of make in India, ignore and proceed to the next in the list - EF2K. If they fail, then it goes to Boeing and LM., and finally to NDTV's favorite Gripen.

oh well, gripen might bribe all of the above and get in.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 04 Aug 2015 02:39

hsrada wrote:Ignoring the terrible English ...

Don't ignore the English. The syntax, grammar and idiom is pure Russian. And very charming it is too:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADHb1p4lv8

Need to practice speaking like that if you want to get a booking at a decent restaurant before 2017.