Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05, 2015

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milano
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by milano »

Anujan wrote:Yea Pakis are like that. I had posted some time back:

If you think about it, "Pakistan itself is a victim of terrorism" is merely a rephrasing of "Before the world blames suicide bombers, they should realize suicide bombers themselves victim of their suicide bombing". Essentially Pakistan is the country equivalent of a suicide bomber. So, the best way to counter this is repeat those talking points ourselves but modified in absurd ways, so every time someone hears those words, they only remember how absurd those words are. I never tire of doing that.

1. Before the world accuses Pakistan of spreading polio, they should realize Pakistan itself victim of polio
2. Before US accuses ISI of funding pro-Kashmir group to influence American politics, they should remember Pakistan itself victim of ISI influencing politics
3. Before Bangladesh accuses Pakistan army of committing crimes, they should realize Pakistan itself victim of Pakistan army crimes when Bangladesh was part of Pakistan
4. Before India complains about Pakistan army shelling its towns, they should realize Pakistan itself victim of Pakistan army shelling their towns

So take a talking point, gleefully deconstruct it, point out how absurd it is, keep repeating it and drive the point home.

*The Road to Kabul Runs Through Kashmir
Why the key to winning in Afghanistan is peace between Islamabad and New Delhi. http://foreignpolicy.com/2010/11/11/the ... h-kashmir/
Kashmir: The lynchpin of the Afghanistan problem http://www.dawn.com/news/697593/kashmir ... an-problem
Kashmir Is the Key to Peace in Afghanistan http://www.newsweek.com/kashmir-key-pea ... tan-216628

** There is a parody about it in a movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3boy_tLWeqA
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Thanks Anujan - very astute observations of the methods behind the madness and the madness itself.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Anujan »

Good Haqqani in his book says how every meeting with the visiting American delegation in the 50s (!!) were practiced before hand and the talking points revised so everyone right from the TFTAs to the civilians stayed on message and said the same thing.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by milano »

Kashi wrote: The approach has been iteratively refined and now being presented as "Opinions and Blogs" by "noted socio-political commentators and security/strategic experts." Some of these "experts" hold proper and bonafide positions in various "think tanks", may have been planted by the deep state itself or co-opted through various means.....



All these "strategic experts" simply form yet another constituent of the deep state "arsenal", against India (and others as well).

LeT, JeM, Good Taliban etc are the 'A' team, while these folks are the 'B' team. Much like the A and B teams of the People's Amn Committee of Karachi.
Thanks Kashi - great laying out of how they work. Any ideas on why we're seeing the talking points spiking at this juncture?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by partha »

Along with such patterns, one can also roughly identify establishment folks. chaighar wallah is one such fellow. He presents a liberal, peace loving face but definitely has some connections with Paki establishment. Unlike retd kernails who spew Lahori logic in op-eds he employs some sophistication. Tufail Ahmed rightly called him for what he is - an establishment hack. No wonder it pissed him off and he called Tufail, an RSS stooge. Nothing hurts these RAPEs more than Indian Muslims criticizing them or not towing their line. chaighar wallah types are what Lutyen's elite interact with in New Delhi parties and conferences and fall for "majority of Pakis are peace lovers, less than 10% are extremists" propaganda.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by member_29089 »

I think we are over-analyzing pakiness. i think paki ideology can be simplified. The aptly named Sunny Fragments are glued together by the fake propagandu of their "establishment" that India is the great kuffer enemy for various reasons. The sole purpose for their existence (or death-wish) is to nuke india to revenge the 1971 humiliation. Their jarnails who are retiring, copulating, and spreading pakiness in Canada will keep their genetic line going when their country is destroyed by Indian retaliation. Gazwa-e-Hind can also be a nuke attack on India under a koranic excuse. No amount of agreements, treaties, or handing over of KiSS (Kashmir, Siachen, & Sir-creek) will change this ultimate goal of badlaa for 1971. The reason 90% of pakis revere OBL is because they learned that if a 9/11 type attack can impact the US economy over the long run then a nuke attack on Bombay and B'lore, Kerala will easily cripple India. The biggest winner of course will be China because they will see their main rival in the region (India) eliminated. A nuke attack on Mumbai/ B'lore will also have minimal radiation hazard on China. Choices for India are few. One is to rapidly become economically strong in the coming years and have international coalition to nuke-nude pakistan because even a massive premptive nuke attack on pakistan will spread radiation into large parts of India. Other choice is to have a low-threshold offensive nuclear posture towards china (Agni-5, 6, 7, Nirbhay, bombers, sea-launched BM with thousands of warheads of kilotons to gigatons) and a clearly declared nuclear doctrine that "since china has spread nukes to Poaqland, any nuke attack on India by pakis will result in massive Indian attack on Pakistan as well as on China" - end of rant - JMT paisa.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by shaun »

See its simple , when i interact with people around me about the pukiness of pakis , i hear the same thing, " all are human " !! and mango pakis are like mango Indics. It is the politicians , generals and mullas ( i wonder what is left !!!), who don't want good relationship with India.
The social engineering thing , happening through media , movies and music , have taken its toll on Psyche of Indian when it comes to dealing with pakis. The so called intellectual Indians are the most affected. They fail to see, that the action of politicians , generals and mullas are the reflection of their ( porki ) society.

When argued about terrorism , these so called intellectuals make parallel incidence happening across border , in shitistan , meaning is " we all are victims ".

Example : The mass killing of school kids at an puki army school , The argument is , As the school was celebrating "malala's view " ( which are liberal and in sync with any normal kids view ) the school was attacked by terrorists. See the victim hood thing , that being portrayed . He happens to love NDTV and that's the message he got from that channel. When i argued with him , whether he knows that it was actually an army school , he told me , he don't know about that and started questioning me , why target army school . I gave him some facts that , puki army was running some anti talib ops in FATA and thus the consequence .

Example : Mango paki and Indics are same , I told nope they are not , at least in their thinking . He asked me why , I told him to look at the paki school text books where hatred for Indian and anything non muslim is preached . He told that those preaching happens in madrassas not in puki govt books , I provided him with some links about their hate text in their school books. He was astonished . He told me , he never knew about that.

Both the above examples shows the face of our socially engineered intellectuals.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Anujan »

Also the way some of the chaighar types torture logic is funny. A pet project is to claim that Jinnah was secular, tolerant and made Pakistan because of religious extremists like Gandhi and Nehru who wanted to establish a theocracy. Well, the results are there for all to see. A second claim they make is that Jinnah wanted a united India but it is Gandhi and Nehru wanted to divide India. If you ask who propounded two nation theory, well the response typically is that it was merely a "negotiating position" for "greater minority rights".

The reason they do that is because if you start from today and rewind to when Pakistan was created, there is not a single Paki with broad support that anyone in Pakistan can claim to be a progressive, whose ideals are worth following. Well they are a few, but let us not speak ill of the murdered and the dead. Except for Jinnah, who reputedly made a single speech about how Pakistan will be progressive (except that nobody can find a recording or any authentic transcript of that speech).

As my third cousin twice removed says: Blasphemy law, like Jinnah, is quite progressive. It applies equally well to men or women and particularly favors minorities.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Kashi »

Milano wrote: Thanks Kashi - great laying out of how they work. Any ideas on why we're seeing the talking points spiking at this juncture?
Thanks Milanoji for your feedback and for your well articulated comments on the Paki psychology.

As you aptly put it, one of the reasons could be something major than has happened behind the scenes that did not make it to the public domain- such as armed forces hitting them hard in a shock and awe. That could explain a series or screeches on cold-start, Gen. Suhag's statements, PM Modi and what not.

Though it seemingly fits, I am somehow unable to get around the fact that if such things have indeed happened- that is to say beyond the disproportionate response on the border/LoC that has become the norm- someone, somewhere would have squealed or let something on the social media.

Even in the past, blackops such tit-for-tat beheadings somehow made it to the public domain, despite internet and social media being in its infancy atleast in India. Thus, the absence of any hints into "the events" beyond the public domain would lead me to suggest that maybe that's not all which has forced the Paki chaddis into a collective twist. To clarify, in Pakiland, only the Khakis wear the chaddies. Sure, there are likely to be some "special ops" and hopefully we'll find out soon enough.

I believe it's a combination of things. Apart from the disproportionate response, it's GoI, completely refusing to engage Pakis beyond a basal level, and that too only when terrorism will be the topic of discussion. There is no "composite dialogue" on the horizon, no Hurriyat meeting the visiting Paki delegation, no cricket, no IPL, no hockey- an all round royal ignorance. Something the Pakis are unable to stomach.

I also suspect, one of the reasons why US SD issued a visa to Geelani maybe to allow the good Sharif (and maybe sneak in a few SD officials, Kerry, Hagel, Hillary etc. as well) to meet with a "prominent Kashmiri leader" while PM Modi was present in the US. GoI nixed it as well and that too by suspending the passport for four weeks. Why no indefinitely? Because Geela nahin travelling to US after Modi visit and managing to meet Obama himself, does not have the same effect as a meeting with Sharif, while Modi happens to be engaging the industry and diaspora, a few blocks away.

I also get a feeling that Zarb-e-Kabz is not going well at all and the fauj is feeling the heat, literally. So what better than bleat and cry for attention by invoking a nuclear shadow?

Of course, I could be way off the mark, but the coming month would be very interesting from a Paki watcher's point of view.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by partha »

Anujan wrote:Except for Jinnah, who reputedly made a single speech about how Pakistan will be progressive (except that nobody can find a recording or any authentic transcript of that speech).
RAPEs want the world to believe Jinnah was secular and wanted a secular Pakistan just like secular India based on one line in a speech of which, as you have said, there is no copy or recording. So a rumor which is most likely false considering there is no other instance of Jinnah saying anything like that is sufficient evidence for these Pakis but when it comes to 26/11 and other terror attacks on India, they always want more evidence from India to show Pakistan's involvement. Same case with OBL. All facts point to Paki establishment's haath in protecting OBL but RAPEs say there is not enough evidence. This whole putting chaddis in a twist to somehow project Jinnah as secular leader who was just as great as Gandhi is for doing == with India and for western audience. Will they ever make the same arguments about Jinnah in Urdu press and call for a truly secular Pakistan?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by KLNMurthy »

Milano wrote:Hi all. Shiv and JE Menon, thank you for the welcome. I'm going to attempt the URL thing now.

I'm attaching links to articles that have been published in a cluster over the last few days (sep 19-22ish). All are very similar, which is leading to my thinking that it is a coordinated effort and correlated to something. They're all the same well-worn talking points: "don't try Cold Start, it could lead to all manner of unintended consequences, you're overestimating your capabilities, your FDI/GDP will be badly impacted...". 2 Lt Cols (Retd), 1 Brigadier/SSG Officer (Retd), and 1 south asian Stimson Center fellow. One of the articles is what Falijee had previously posted.

In the past, one has seen these things come in clusters at times of serious crisis. So what I'm wondering is this: why now? Why are the cornered rat and its sympathizers squeaking?

Things seem to be relatively quiet on the LOC/Borders (at least based on the lack of headlines of cross-border shelling). My hypotheses: (1) Indian Govt and Army have been successful in following up bark with serious bite (not in the public domain?) with clear (not in the public domain?) signaling of serious punishment to come; and hence the need to bluster for the domestic audience and/or warn India not to go further, or (2) this is all posturing tied to the upcoming UNGA and visits of PM(s) to the USA, to remind all that South Asia is a powderkeg, so as to try to get international pressure increased on India and make it back off. If the motivation is the latter, I don't think it's working too well given the points emanating from the Kerry/Swaraj meeting that really put the spot light on Pakistan's role, as well as warnings that the Coalition Support Funds could be at risk.

http://nation.com.pk/columns/19-Sep-201 ... ical-study
http://tribune.com.pk/story/961565/indi ... pirations/
http://www.dawn.com/news/1208299/limited-war
http://www.hindustantimes.com/editorial ... QH8fL.html
And here are a couple from Indian Express:
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... ted-sense/
(Sushant Singh warning India against thinking that it can wage a limited war against Pakistan, because you know, pakistan has the n-things that cannot be named)
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... te-please/
(From Nirupama Subramanian, ex-correspondent of The Hindu in Pakistan, asking for resumption of Track 2 dialogue, to repeat the success of having that dialogue with Musharaf)
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by A_Gupta »

Why now? IMO, UNGA and visit of the PMs.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Gagan »

Pakistan seems to thrive on doing an == with India.
Traditionally the UN is where they've done this.

This year, after their bluster about submitting a dossier about RAW's activities in Pakistan (Which I am sure is only a vast collection of uncircumcized male crotch photos - which the Pakistan leedaraan are getting off on), they don't have anything else of importance to do.

So probably, some pak pasand massa diplomutts must have planned the whole Geelani visit during PM Modi's visit there to try and create a scene.

Nawaz is also afraid, that now that the bluster has been made at the behest - actually under pressure of the fauj, once he reaches the UN, what will he do with the dossier-e-crotch-photos hain ji?
He can't present it to anyone, he'll be laughed off. OTOH, ISPR will be getting the media back home ready with the announcements that inspite of overwhelming evidence of RAA's activities, the bleddy-civlian Nawaz has betrayed Pakistan, and caused loss of H&D vis-a-vis India.

So, a lot of talking points will be generated in the lead up to the UN visit, as every year.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Falijee »

partha wrote:
Anujan wrote:Except for Jinnah, who reputedly made a single speech about how Pakistan will be progressive (except that nobody can find a recording or any authentic transcript of that speech).
RAPEs want the world to believe Jinnah was secular and wanted a secular Pakistan just like secular India based on one line in a speech of which, as you have said, there is no copy or recording. So a rumor which is most likely false considering there is no other instance of Jinnah saying anything like that is sufficient evidence for these Pakis but when it comes to 26/11 and other terror attacks on India, they always want more evidence from India to show Pakistan's involvement. Same case with OBL. All facts point to Paki establishment's haath in protecting OBL but RAPEs say there is not enough evidence. This whole putting chaddis in a twist to somehow project Jinnah as secular leader who was just as great as Gandhi is for doing == with India and for western audience. Will they ever make the same arguments about Jinnah in Urdu press and call for a truly secular Pakistan?
Partha-ji :
I am in complete agreement with you that Jinnah was not a truly secular. If he was so :
(1) why did he object to his only daughter, who married a non-muslim against his wishes
(2) why did he not take action to protect Hindu minorities
(3) why did his first (Hindu ) Law Minister fled to India, and the laundry list goes on and on .....
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by shiv »

KLNMurthy wrote: http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... ted-sense/
(Sushant Singh warning India against thinking that it can wage a limited war against Pakistan, because you know, pakistan has the n-things that cannot be named)
Amazing how many knickers go into a twist when an army chief makes a remark - of plain fact, that India can fight wars. I mean, to resort to my usual rude analogy, if I say that I have the potency to take 3 wimmens simultaneously it would be really hilarious if all the convents and women's colleges in town started reacting to my statement and telling me I can't do it or what would happen if I tried. I may not have been thinking about them - I am thinking of me and my potency, but they are certainly thinking about me no? :lol: They see my assertion of potency as being aimed at them.

Anything that sounds like "Indian threat" is taken very seriously in Pakistan and their standard response is to respond and appear very powerful and ready to fight. This serves a useful purpose - it allows them to claim that India has not attacked them because we are afraid and that the Indians simply like to make empty threats to bolster their own confidence because India is a failing nation in which the army needs to cite an external threat to keep people's minds away from all the internal problems of poverty, caste, rape, dark complexion etc.

But I suspect that statements such as these from time to time serve as a potent warning to Pakis that they will get ass whupped. they do listen. All talk of friendship and trade with Pakistan is interpreted as weakness. Only tough talk backed by force that will chew off Paki ass works with them.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by shiv »

I think India has not really put in enough toil into making and distributing to the people who matter good, academic analyses of Pakistan. The reason why we have people demanding dialogue and trade and other ties is surely because of misinformation or partial information.

For example:

Does anyone in Pakistan want to talk to India? Yes of course. There are Pakistanis who are for dialogue
Does anyone in Pakistan want trade with India? Yes of course. Many Pakistanis realize that they will benefit from trade with India
Do the people of Pakistan want war or peace? Most people say peace, maybe with conditions attached
Do people of Pakistan want the freedom to travel to India? Yes I am sure many do.
Do Pakistanis want terrorists to be arrested and brought to justice? yes. That is what they claim all the time.

So you look at the answers to all these questions and say "Hey look -Pakistanis are humans like us, not the devils they are made out to be. We should have dialog and better ties.

The problem is that it is not these simplistic questions with straight answers that matter.

Does anyone in Pakistan want to talk to India? Talk is cheap. The problem is whether there is anyone in Pakistan who is capable or willing to stop jihad factories from training terrorists into entering India. If we are not going to talk about this there can be no talk with Pakistan

Pakistanis, including Nawaz Sharif as of yesterday make the link that because Kashmir is an issue, people who are angry with India will attack India and that everything will be solved if India "solves the Kashmir issue". Surely in 2015 Indians should have enough sense and the ability to read history to understand that the "Kashmir issue" has been negotiated and terms agreed upon in several treaties. Pakistan has abrogated those agreements and that being the case what can be achieved by further dialogue?

If Pakistanis want to negotiate Kashmir, every India should know that J&K are non negotiable. How dumb can diplomats, ministers and political functionaries in India be if they still think there is a case for dialogue? When we agree to talk with Pakistan, Pakis know damn well that we are "breaking down" once again and negotiating what we say is non negotiable and that negotiating is being done under the shadow of terror which Pakistan will not stop. Pakistanis see this as a sign of weakness and move in for what they think is one more chance to screw India in some way.

Unfortunately I suspect that apart from some military leaders - few Indians - particularly in the Congress party understand the meaning and use of national power. national power has to be displayed and wielded. It must not be hidden away in such a way as to make ourselves look like a weak or equal party in negotiation. This frustrates me a great deal. I suspect taht too many Indians have misunderstood Gandhi and think that he made people understand the message of peace. he did not. All he did was unite violent warring parties (which was an achievement in itself) and told them to save their fight while he negotiated with the Brits. Gandhi had the backing of people who would have massacred the Brits. he just prevented that massacre of Brits. He played with power with great finesse. Our leaders have been dumbos for too long. I am afraid that we will get another weak moron after Modi who cannot understand or use national power. I fear people like Manish Tewari and that baldy spokesperson who comes on TV. These people appear completely impotent to me. they should never be allowed to lead India. And the Gandhi parivaar coming again would be a national disaster. Sorry to digress
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Cosmo_R »

@Shiv ^^^"It must not be hidden away in such a way as to make ourselves look like a weak or equal party in negotiation."

I submit this is the direct result of a polity (and culture) based on populism. Give anyone who screams loud enough a 'sop'. Somebody jumps into a tiger area in a zoo and gets killed? Pay the family an 'ex gratia'. Sandal wood poachers get killed while attacking the police? Pay the families.

This is 'hush money' paid with other people's money. The same logic applies in the INC and the lefties to Pakistan: buy them off because it is another way of buying votes. Just a refinement of Mulayam SIngh Yadav's infamous pledge to pay Pakistan billions to buy votes in UP.

JLN's "not even a blade of grass grows there " remark re NEFA is another case in point.

It's appeasement in many forms stemming from a fear of wielding hard power. And we know that weak Kings don't last.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Gagan »

Shiv-ji,
Completely agree with the use of national power argument.
The current GOI Knows that a mere statement by Min of State Defence, or Army Chief or some important government functionary in India will put the Pak Fauj and their media wing's chaddis in a twist.

The possibilities of using this are endless.

A version of this was used by Advani, when he egged / challenged Pakistan post pokharan-2 to test. I think India was well aware of the EXACT state of their weapons program - and not the 100+ going onto 200+ now bakwaas.

One aspect is that the ISPR is battling a war of perceptions within Pakistan. The ISI/Fauj is supposed to be 'hafiz of the zameeni and nazariyati sarhad of Pakistan' (The ISI / Pak Fauj / ISPR are the defenders of both the geographical and ideological boundaries of pakistan)
So they perceive any statement coming out of India as an attack on that nazariyati sarhad (Ideological frontier/boundary)

It is this nazariyat (which we refer to as Pakistaniyat, I call it Pakistani haramigiri) that is at the root of all the trouble, terrorism, religious bigotry that this entity has exported to its neighbours, and carried out within in the form of religious porgroms on its minorities and subsects.

Before one even talks of getting rid of Pakistan as a geographical entitiy, breaking it down, we must break down this nazariyati sarhad that the pak fauj has set up. This is variously called the Two nation theory or the idea of pakistan - which are all euphemisms of the same nazariyati sarhad.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by ramana »

Milano, Along with seeing what is common also look at what ins not and that might reveal something. Or else its ISPR press releases regurgitated.
BTW We have three long view threads on TSP:

Pakistan a New way of looking

Managing Pakistan Failure

Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story


All these have tremendous archival material which any commentator could use.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by ramana »

The spate of articles from military 'analcysts' could be due to the 50th anniversary of 1965 war is on us and they realize the drive to Lahore was a proto- Cold Start.

It was a close thing if 4th Division had captured Lahore.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by A_Gupta »

I think I saw something from Doval about India punching at its weight, not below it and not above it.

India punching at its weight would be an improvement over the past, especially as India moves up the weight classes :). But don't expect that to miraculously cure anything with regard to Pakistan. It is like, when you are overweight, you won't shed the weight on the first day you start your diet.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by shiv »

Gagan wrote: One aspect is that the ISPR is battling a war of perceptions within Pakistan. The ISI/Fauj is supposed to be 'hafiz of the zameeni and nazariyati sarhad of Pakistan' (The ISI / Pak Fauj / ISPR are the defenders of both the geographical and ideological boundaries of pakistan)
So they perceive any statement coming out of India as an attack on that nazariyati sarhad (Ideological frontier/boundary)

It is this nazariyat (which we refer to as Pakistaniyat, I call it Pakistani haramigiri) that is at the root of all the trouble, terrorism, religious bigotry that this entity has exported to its neighbours, and carried out within in the form of religious porgroms on its minorities and subsects.

Before one even talks of getting rid of Pakistan as a geographical entitiy, breaking it down, we must break down this nazariyati sarhad that the pak fauj has set up. This is variously called the Two nation theory or the idea of pakistan - which are all euphemisms of the same nazariyati sarhad.
Beautifully put Gagan.

Translated into English what the Pak fauj/ISI are defending a sense of honour and dignity and that honour and dignity is upheld by
1. Showing aggression and not weakness towards India
2. Hurting India physically
3, Demanding territory and other absurd compensation from India

A person or entity that behaves like this should be insulted and told to fu(k off. This person/entity should not be encouraged by agreeing to negotiate, requesting them to catch criminals and treating them like normal well adjusted members of society.

It is total and complete stupidity on the part of India for not having people to analyse Paki behaviour and advise government with an appropriate response based on the fact that Pakistanis are defending an ideological frontier and are looking for psychological fulfilment by pestering and punishing India. If a person behaves like an idiot, he needs to be handled like one. Psychological profiling of Pakistani behaviour is a must. Experts in various fields need to cooperate to handle international issues. But our governments behave like illiterates - not realizing the value of biological, social and neurosciences in handling people as individuals or as groups. India's lack of ability to handle Pakistan revolves around the Indian leadership's lack of understanding of how behavioural sciences can be applied in international relations. We are bums of the first order. Pakis are also bums but we must climb out of our ignorance. Who is going to tell our government this? Who is going to tell our know-all diplomats this?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Falijee »

Bin Laden had prior knowledge of 2008 Mumbai attacks, reveals new book
Osama bin Laden had prior knowledge of the 2008 Mumbai attacks. He wanted to establish an Al Qaeda state in Pakistan following the breakout of full-scale war between the two nuclear armed neighbours.
These revelations were made in the recently published book ‘Pakistan’s secret war on Al-Qaeda’, written by Azaz Syed, an investigative journalist and a former correspondent for DawnNews.
According to the book, Major General Ehtesham Zameer of the ISI had received a tip off from the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) about the expected arrival of a high value target at Islamabad airport. The target was a Saudi financier of the 9/11 attacks, and was tailed by ISI operatives to a house in Rawalpindi. The house in question belonged to one Dr Abdul Qudoos, who had befriended KSM in Germany and Sudan.
Read: Excerpts from Abbottabad Commission report
The elusive KSM, had been dodging security agencies since 1995, when his nephew, Yousuf Ramzi was arrested from a guesthouse in Pakistan. Ramzi was wanted by the United States for the murder of CIA officials in the US. KSM was also present at the same guesthouse, but managed to evade capture.
No doubt with the connivance of Deep State Agents
The book has also revealed another unknown fact, one of bin Laden’s daughter has been married into Kuwaiti brothers family, and she now resides in Kohat.
Another chapter in the books deals with two retired colonels of the Pakistan Army. One of them was employed by the CIA and the other was apparently running a private security company providing services to various foreign embassies.
Reports also reveal that the land on which Osama's compound was built, was owned by Kakul Military Academy, and was "subdivided" to make room for OBL's house
The then US Vice President Dick Cheney had paid an emergency visit to personally hand deliver a chit to Musharraf, and had asked him to read it after he left. The chit read: “We suspect that bin Laden is in Pakistan.”
So obviously, Mushy, as usual, was not coming clean on this :D
Syed also explains the making of General Kayani as the army chief, who attained the position after meeting Benazir Bhutto in Dubai. He is also reported to have said that he would hit back at president Musharraf, maybe, this is the origin of the tiff between the two or is it a Pakjabi- Mohajir thing :D if the president tried to remove him as he was under severe domestic pressure at the time from different quarters.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Amber G. »

Now Pak is going to ask why China is poking nose in Pakistan's internal affairs.. ..

Women's veils a sign of backwardness in Xinjiang: Officials
The custom of women wearing face veils is not a tradition of minority people in China's western area of Xinjiang or in any Muslim country, but is a symbol of extremism and backwardness instead, a senior regional official said on Thursday.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Arjun »

Now that is one Chinese statement that deserves a high-five !

I am really glad there is a government that has publicly voiced (in diplomatic language) how pukeworthy this vile Muslim outfit is. Would have been good if this had come from India - but I guess we are not there yet.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Prem »

shiv wrote:
Gagan wrote: A person or entity that behaves like this should be insulted and told to fu(k off. This person/entity should not be encouraged by agreeing to negotiate, requesting them to catch criminals and treating them like normal well adjusted members of society.It is total and complete stupidity on the part of India for not having people to analyse Paki behaviour and advise government with an appropriate response based on the fact that Pakistanis are defending an ideological frontier and are looking for psychological fulfilment by pestering and punishing India. If a person behaves like an idiot, he needs to be handled like one. Psychological profiling of Pakistani behaviour is a must. Who is going to tell our know-all diplomats this?
Call and treat the Paki as true Benisian and it will provide much needed handle for controlled outcome of Poakonkey (Newly made species with genetic Mixture of Paki,Monkey and Donkey) behaviour .
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Falijee »

DSP Peshawar central jail, brother shot dead in Charsadda

Now how does this tie in the recent statement of Raheel that the "backbone of terrorists" have been broken?

Maybe, the "Bad Sherrif" needs to brush up of his understanding of Pashtunwali code of ethics, where Badla ( revenge), alongwith Hewaad (country), Tora (courage), Melmastia (assylum), Nang (honour) Sabat (loyalty) are basic tenets :mrgreen:
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Falijee »

India appoints Gautam Bambawale its envoy to Pakistan

Does this signal a more hardened policy towards Pakisatan :twisted: or is it just routine ? can anyone eloborate.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Peregrine »

Gentle Readers of this Forum,

Jinnah's Secular Status is touted just as that of a highly experienced - i.e. of long standing- stripper in a cheap bar.

Here is a Link to part of the Article by the then Chair Person of Government College University, Lahore Dr. Tahir Kamran : http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1802164

It is an old Article in the News International of 08-05-2005 and it cannot be accessed. I have posted the Article on the Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2015 - Page. As such I am posting the Full Article without any "embelishment" :

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2005- ... /dia.htm#2

IDEOLOGY IN CHANGING TIMES – DR. TAHIR KAMRAN
Discovering a secular image for Pakistan from the sayings and speeches of Jinnah alone is fated to be a lost cause

Marxist-liberal academics and intellectuals apart, the Hindu as the 'Other' seems to be the solitary epistemic fact providing Pakistani identity its raison d'etre. The textbooks of History and Pakistan Studies exemplify that methodology to the hilt. Hindus are projected as inveterate enemies of Muslims, cunning and conspiratorial and not at all trustworthy. Now that people at the helm want to mark a new beginning in Pakistan's relationship with India, they have to contend with deeply embedded animosity in the hearts and souls of common Pakistanis whose anti-India mindset has a perspective spanning over no less than four decades. To dispel all the misgivings and ill will inculcated through media and textbooks is likely to take a lifetime. The political will and the consistent effort required for building up the confidence requisite for an amicable relationship would undoubtedly be an acid test for Pakistani leadership.

Also

On the intellectual plain, the question of ideology appears the trickiest of all whereby the South Asian Muslims were distinguished from the rest of the communities of subcontinent on the basis of religion. Among all those communities, Hindus had been especially demonized and completely 'othered' specifically by the Muslim leadership espousing the creation of a separate state. Most of the time, the liberal-Marxist intelligentsia refers to Muhammad Ali Jinnah's speech that he made on 11 August 1947 to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan in which one statement is profusely mentioned to prove the secular vision of Jinnah for Pakistan. That statement merits to be quoted here;

"You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan . You may belong to any religion or caste or creed... that has nothing to do with the business of the State... We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state... in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State."

Finally

However, a disinterested glance at the other speeches and statements of Jinnah confirms the above quoted lines to be an aberration rather than norm as it has been projected. A passing reference has been made by Chaudhry Khaleeq-uz-Zaman in 'Pathway to Pakistan' stating that the statement was issued to appease Indian rulers so that the safety and well being of those Muslims could be ensured who, due to various reasons, preferred to stay back in India. Shahid Javid Burki, too, unleashes trenchant criticism on the inanity of that statement in his ' Pakistan : A Nation in the Making'. His contention holds water particularly when he questions the legitimacy of Jinnah's articulation emphasising a single nationhood immediately after massacres and pogroms killing at least hundreds of thousands if not millions.

One tends to concur more with Mubarak Ali who disregards the speech in question as totally out of tune with the rationale of Pakistan movement. He rightly contends that one can find out all sorts of statements and speeches. If Presidential address to the Constituent Assembly resonates a secular vision for the state, many other speeches stressed religious ideology as the cornerstone for future planning and policy formulations. Jinnah's address at the annual meeting of the Muslim League in March 1940 can be quoted as an example;

"The problem in India is not one of an inter-communal character but manifestly of an international one, and it must be treated as such.... They (Islam and Hinduism) are not religions in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact different and distinct social orders, and it is a dream that Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality... The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, literature. They neither inter- marry nor interdine together, and, indeed civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions."

Numerous references to Islam as a major factor in shaping the Indian Muslims' personality and destiny will be found in Jinnah's observations both before and after Pakistan 's establishment. While addressing the Punjab Muslim Students Federation on March 18, 1944, he called Islam 'our bedrock and sheet anchor' and asked the Communist Party to leave the Muslims alone for Islam was their "guide and a complete code of life".

It can safely be argued then that discovering a secular image for Pakistan from the sayings and the speeches of Jinnah is fated to be a lost cause. Hence, one cannot help agree with Bipan Chandra and Mubarak Ali's contention. The improving state of relations with India demands Pakistani intelligentsia to re-construct the vision for the future Pakistan which calls for greater mutuality between India and Pakistan on one hand and a greater respect for cultural as well as ethnic and regional plurality of the country on the other. Undue concerns of the centrist forces should be dispensed with, earlier the better. The future vision of Pakistan must be that of a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural state and society.

(The writer teaches History at G C University Lahore ) : E-Mail Address is tahirkamran_gcu@yahoo.com

Dr Kamran was a visiting Professor at Wolfson College, Cambridge, and has now returned to Lahore

I deeply regret that we have Battalions of Indian Opinion Makers lauding Jinnah’s Constitutional. Democratic and Secular Status - Believe me far be it from Jinnah any such intention (added now) of being either Constitutional, Democratic or even Secular. He was a Suited, Booted, Kunth Langoted Whisky Guzzling Porcine Products Eating Foaming at the Mouth Mullah of the World’s Only Religion of Peace in the Land of the Pure and the Home of the Terrorist.

Cheers Image
Last edited by Peregrine on 24 Sep 2015 22:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by KLNMurthy »

shiv wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... ted-sense/
(Sushant Singh warning India against thinking that it can wage a limited war against Pakistan, because you know, pakistan has the n-things that cannot be named)
Amazing how many knickers go into a twist when an army chief makes a remark - of plain fact, that India can fight wars. I mean, to resort to my usual rude analogy, if I say that I have the potency to take 3 wimmens simultaneously it would be really hilarious if all the convents and women's colleges in town started reacting to my statement and telling me I can't do it or what would happen if I tried. I may not have been thinking about them - I am thinking of me and my potency, but they are certainly thinking about me no? :lol: They see my assertion of potency as being aimed at them.

Anything that sounds like "Indian threat" is taken very seriously in Pakistan and their standard response is to respond and appear very powerful and ready to fight. This serves a useful purpose - it allows them to claim that India has not attacked them because we are afraid and that the Indians simply like to make empty threats to bolster their own confidence because India is a failing nation in which the army needs to cite an external threat to keep people's minds away from all the internal problems of poverty, caste, rape, dark complexion etc.

But I suspect that statements such as these from time to time serve as a potent warning to Pakis that they will get ass whupped. they do listen. All talk of friendship and trade with Pakistan is interpreted as weakness. Only tough talk backed by force that will chew off Paki ass works with them.
What's funny is that, virtually all these articles, whether from Indians or pakis, consist entirely of schooling India. India must realize this that and the other, India will face this or that loss, India failed to this and that, and so on. No prescription whatsoever for pakistan.

Perhaps it is the "India as the good & pliable brother " syndrome, perhaps it is a way to occupy and dominate the communication space with the paki pov.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Prem »

Poakalien Gastronac TNT Theory validated
Watch at 333
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Falijee »

Zardari's Self Imposed Exile Explained _ His Right Hand Man Now Implicated In Billion Dollar Fraud And KickBacks :P


Rangers reveal kickbacks of billions taken by Dr Asim
DUBAI: In its first official and detailed report on the high-profile interrogation of Asif Ali Zardari’s right hand man Dr Asim Hussain since his arrest on August 26, the Sindh Rangers have come up with astonishing figures of corruption with hundreds of billions pocketed by Dr Asim and his bosses.The 12-page report, officially sent to the National Accountability Bureau (NAB) for further investigation and action, lists details of how the PPP leader took kickbacks from whom and in what amounts. Officials said on Wednesday the NAB had already formed a Joint Investigation Team with Rangers to further probe these specific charges and the NAB Chairman Chaudhry Qamar Zaman had already received briefings from both the Rangers chief and the corps commander Karachi to proceed further in the case. A copy of the Rangers confidential report, available with The News, confirms almost all the charges of astronomical loot and plunder that was so far heard only on the media and was never confirmed by any official investigating agency. The covering letter of the Rangers report, sent to the NAB on September 9, describes Dr Asim Hussain as “prima donna at the national level” who accrued “mighty illegal benefits which magnified his financial stature and social standing equating him to be indispensable.” Five other officials of the Sui Gas companies and Petroleum Ministry, who were also arrested and interrogated, gave explicit details of how Dr Asim had collected billions upon billions in kickbacks from companies, even those which were known friends of Asif Ali Zardari. The persons who were interrogated include Zuhair Siddiqui (ex-Managing Director SSGC), Shoaib Warsi (Deputy MD SSGC), Amin Rajput (Chief Financial Officer SSGC), Fayyaz Merchant (Sr GM SSGC) and Kamran Ehsan Nagi (GM SSGC). The report states: “Dr Asim has been found involved in various acts of corruption, corrupt practices and misuse of authority as public office holder… He is responsible for inflicting losses to the tune of billions of rupees on the national exchequer…Huge amounts so embezzled were provided to his political masters, which were subsequently used in terror financing and funding target killers.” The following are the specific cases mentioned in the Rangers report: —- Dr Asim gave favours and illegal gas connections to KESC, which was owned by Abraaj Group with links to Asif Zardari and Faryal Talpur to the tune of Rs100 billion. —- Zuhair Siddiqui admitted that he had paid Rs6-7 billion to Dr Asim collected after illegal gas connections were given to companies including KESC which was allowed to keep Rs62 billion in unpaid gas receivables. —- He revealed, as per Page-10, para 3 of the Rangers report, that “Dr Asim directed him as MD SSGC to grant liberty to Omni Group of Anwar Majeed, a friend of Asif Zardari, to allow enhanced loads of gas to captive power plants and sugar mills of Asif Zardari through Omni Group, thereby causing loss of billions to the national exchequer.” —- Dr Asim allowed uninterrupted gas supply to selected textile mills of APTMA and captive power plants and collected Rs150 to 200 million per day as kickbacks. — Zuhair Siddiqui revealed that a Turkish global company paid US$40 to 50 million to Dr Asim for prequalification as an exporter of LNG gas. Siddiqui himself got $0.25 million as kickback. —- Para 8 on Page 10 of the report reveals that Dr Asim received daily kickback of Rs2 billion from PSO, through Shah, a Deputy MD PSO, and Jaffery, a GM, whose brother is a close friend of Asif Zardari. —- Dr Asim received Rs1 billion as kickback from Abbas and Khalid Steel Mills. Dozens of similar details of what amounts were taken in land deals with Manzur Kaka, the building authority official who has escaped from Pakistan, PMDC issues and oil kickbacks, have also been revealed in the report. These specific charges will now be investigated in detail by the JIT of Rangers and NAB and references will then be sent to the court. The Rangers report also reveals that all banks in the country were ordered to submit the entire financial data of Dr Asim and other arrested persons while all of them were to be placed on the ECL so that they could not leave the country. On September 11, 2015, two days after the Rangers report was received by the NAB, a letter was issued to form the JIT which has now been set up and has started its work. The astounding figures quoted in the report over a period of 4 to 5 years would amount to hundreds of billions of rupees collected by Dr Asim and his associates for his bosses. There is no mention in the report how these huge amounts were transferred overseas or whether this money was still in the Pakistani banks but all accounts have been seized.This story first appeared in The News.
Nothing new here; everyone and his grandmother knows that Pak-satan is a cess pool of corruption, terrorism, ethnic strife, economic misery and what not; the relevant question to be asked here is why such high profile investigation is only selectively conducted against non-Pakjabi elites (MQM, PPP) of Paki society and not against political mullahs,( eg Maulana Diesel, Lal Masjid Maulvis) Army Jernails and Kernails, Nawaz, his brother and other Pakjabi members of PML (N); by such selective actions, they are alienating more and more sections of their society
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Gagan »

The question is, how much of a cut will bad sharif and the crore kammandus want for all their efforts?

Surely not 10% hain ji! Zardari will be very upset indeed
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by SSridhar »

Falijee wrote:India appoints Gautam Bambawale its envoy to Pakistan

Does this signal a more hardened policy towards Pakisatan :twisted: or is it just routine ? can anyone eloborate.
Please see this
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by milano »

ramana wrote:Milano, Along with seeing what is common also look at what ins not and that might reveal something. Or else its ISPR press releases regurgitated.
BTW We have three long view threads on TSP:...

All these have tremendous archival material which any commentator could use.
Gang, thank you again for the advice and for the insightful inputs. Ramana, thank you as well for the advice on key links I can use to further the analysis! I shall peruse with enthusiasm.

Based on all the contributions from everyone, I shall posit what I think is the consensus view: the recent uptick of standard talking point regurgitations in the Opinions sections of Pakistani media, warning off India from dastardly misadventure (a.k.a. permanently fixing the problem) are based on memories of 1965 and the realization that there is finally a government in place that walks the talk and is fully capable of finishing the job that was easily in reach 50 years ago, and that the Pak strategy is to flail about and get the international community to put pressure on India, since India and US are not listening, whilst simultaneously trying to boost the morale of the army and civil society. Hence the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Clearly some serious insecurity issues are boiling over based on the mere threat of an Indian Government that is very very different than all the past ones - the Pakistani winning formula is no longer working and they now realize it. I would hate to be the official shrink to the Pak Overlords.

What is cool is that there's no specific or major crisis that is causing the Pakis to freak out. As some esteemed members have pointed out, now all GOI has to do is jump out of the tall grass and shout "BOO!" THAT is progress.

On another note, 2 Pak papers have *Editorials* today expressing foreboding about the India-US joint declaration and its specific references to D-Company, LET etc. I am now counting down to when the Retd Cols start spewing in the Opinions sections... :). I have my stopwatch out.

BTW, Shiv, brilliant analogy about provoking responses from convents and the parents/guardians of impressionable young ladies!

Cheers.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by amit »

Arjun wrote:Now that is one Chinese statement that deserves a high-five !

I am really glad there is a government that has publicly voiced (in diplomatic language) how pukeworthy this vile Muslim outfit is. Would have been good if this had come from India - but I guess we are not there yet.
Taslima Nasreen, a person I admire very much has written a lot about the origins of purdah:
There are many views on why and how the Islamic purdah started. One view has it that Prophet Mohammed became very poor after spending all the wealth of his first wife. At that time, in Arabia, the poor had to go to the open desert and plains for relieving themselves and even their sexual needs. The Prophet's wives too had to do the same. He had told his wives that "I give you permission to go out and carry out your natural work". (Bukhari Hadis first volume book 4 No. 149). And this is what his wives started doing accordingly. One day, Prophet Mohammed's disciple Uman complained to him that these women were very uncomfortable because they were instantly recognisable while relieving themselves. Umar proposed a cover but Prophet Mohammed ignored it. Then the Prophet asked Allah for advice and he laid down the Ayat (33:59) (Bukhari Hadis Book 026 No. 5397). [It appears voyeuristic tendencies among men in that part of the world is an old custom]

This is the history of the purdah, according to the Hadis. But the question is: since Arab men too relieved themselves in the open, why didn't Allah start the purdah for men? Clearly, Allah doesn't treat men and women as equals, else there would be purdah for both! Men are higher than women. So women have to be made walking prisons and men can remain free birds.

Another view is that the purdah was introduced to separate women from servants. This originates from stories in the Hadis. One story in the Bukhari Hadis goes thus: After winning the Khyber War, Prophet Mohammed took over all the properties of the enemy, including their women. One of these women was called Safia. One of the Prophet's disciples sought to know her status. He replied: "If tomorrow you see that Safia is going around covered, under purdah, then she is going to be a wife. If you see her uncovered, that means I've decided to make her my servant."
Taslima also writes:
My mother used purdah. She wore a burqa with a net cover in front of the face. It reminded me of the meatsafes in my grandmother's house. One had a net door made of cloth, the other of metal. But the objective was the same: keeping the meat safe. My mother was put under a burqa by her conservative family.
I really admire this woman. It is really a shame that when she appealed for help from India, the Leftist secular brigade, including the redoubtable late Jyoti babu and Buddhadeb babu, maintained a deafening silence.

Link
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by shiv »

amit wrote: Taslima also writes:
My mother used purdah. She wore a burqa with a net cover in front of the face. It reminded me of the meatsafes in my grandmother's house. One had a net door made of cloth, the other of metal. But the objective was the same: keeping the meat safe. My mother was put under a burqa by her conservative family.
I really admire this woman. It is really a shame that when she appealed for help from India, the Leftist secular brigade, including the redoubtable late Jyoti babu and Buddhadeb babu, maintained a deafening silence.

Link
What the leftists did was follow Indian secularism to the letter. Indian secularism is "Do not provoke the Muslim, who is prone to be violent."
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Amber G. »

Why this came as breaking news in Pak's leading daily?

Five Paki cops booked (3 of them arrested) for herding goats to rail track

While there was no news about Sharif raising Cashmere in UN?.. In the whole news paper?

Some India News Papers had stories about:
"Pakistan's Sharif to offer India peace proposal at UNGA" ...

"Nawaz Sharif to Meet Kashmiri Leaders in New York"

"Nawaz Sharif likely to raise Kashmir issue at UN"

:eek:
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by Shaktimaan »

Since we are playing media games : What if India were to unofficially "leak" to certain sections of the media a false flag that we have conducted an operation to halal Dawood in Karachi.

Then the Pakis will be in a dilemma : either they have to produce evidence that he is safe and mehfooz under their hifazat, or the Indian claim that some short dark rice-eaters went into their territory and bull-cattled their #1 protectee after bin Laden will stand. Will the proud TFTAs will allow such damage to their H&D?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Post by kenop »

I had an early morning dream that the uniformed Sharief did a koo.
One is due for a long time in any case.
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