Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Oct 2015 05:59

^Seems like IA has gotten better at the PR game. Nice.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Oct 2015 10:54

ShauryaT wrote:<SNIP> COAS Sundarji had many operations under his belt from Brasstacks, Trident, Checker Board and Falcon. Apart from Operation Pawan and the escalation in Punjab during his term, which of the operations of maneuver were real and to what purpose, the full record for the same is yet to come out. This was also the time the Americans were deeply embedded and supportive of the PA due to USSR in Afghanistan. An intent and capability to retake PoK at that time is extremely doubtful

The intent and capability were demonstrated when the 4 Div and 6 Mountain Div were shifted to their launchpads in J&K. And BMP-1 were lifted to Thoise in Shyok. Pakistan did not hold the area in 1987 with as many troops as it does now. Not to forget that IA was arrayed in desert to manage escalation latter.

Checker Board and Falcon happened AFTER all this. You are free to draw your conclusions.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 16 Oct 2015 12:42

Mihir wrote:Have you seen the full 11 minute ad? It's brilliant!

Great to hear Sam's voice and iconic words live on....long after he is gone.

Whose wife is shown paying tributes at 5:00 - 5:12? Is that Major Jyotin Singh Laishram's wife?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Oct 2015 11:13

Blood on my hands: Confessions of Staged Encounters

Then there are other explosive revelations. One chapter features some controversies which mattered in the saga of succession of army chiefs in the recent years. Although Bhattacharjee mentions no names, it is not hard to guess the army chief who went as the governor of Arunachal Pradesh, or who was commanding 3 Corps when his intelligence unit got involved in a dacoity case. For those in the know, the identity of a Muslim general who served in Northern Command allegedly being provided women by two brothers serving in the army is rather easy to guess.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 17 Oct 2015 11:16

abhishek_sharma, please to come to nukkad an report new papers.

Melwyn · Post by **Melwyn** » 17 Oct 2015 11:24

Not sure if this is the right thread for this but this an important topic for many soldiers in IA.
Their desire to rise up the ladder and become officers is fraught with many obstacles.

Along LoC, jawans squeeze in study time to become officers

In a bunker dug into the treacherous mountainside and fortified with iron, stone and sandbags along India’s troubled border with Pakistan, the latest issues of several general knowledge magazines are tucked under rifleman Anurag Thapa’s pillow.
Amid the frequent shelling across the border and the simmering threat of a full-blown war, the 24-year-old soldier is sneaking in study time for an exam to fulfil his dream of becoming an army officer and leading hundreds like him into battle.
The Gorkha soldier returns every night from a punishing patrol along narrow jungle trails, keeping a cautious watch on a maze of routes Pakistani infiltrators could take to sneak into India across the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir.
He races to remove his combat helmet, un-slings his assault rifle and grabs a copy of the Competition Success Review. “Even if I can study only for five minutes, I will. My father was a havildar, I want to return to the LoC as an officer,” says Thapa, who is preparing for a personality and intelligence interview spread over five days to enter the Dehradun-based Army Cadet College (ACC).
Soldiers are groomed to become officers at the ACC for three years before they are packed off for a one-year course at the Indian Military Academy, Dehradun, which churns out freshly-minted lieutenants.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Oct 2015 01:24

From FB:

I have had three postings in J&K, and I distinctly remember three incidents that took place around NW Kashmir during my first posting at Uri in 1976-77:

Incident 1:

A Maratha Light Infantry battalion was newly inducted in a sensitive sector. On the very first night when the rear party of the
previous battalion finally moved out and the main body of Marathas newly moved in, Pakis fired 2" mortar shells on a Maratha forward post. (This has been the usual way to welcome newly inducted Indian Army units by the Pakis for ages.)

As soon as day broke, a Major on the Maratha post climbed a tree with an RL (Rocket Launcher, for my civilian friends) slung on one shoulder and two rockets slung on the other, and simply blasted two bunkers of the Mujahid post across the LOC.Thereafter, not one bullet was fired by the Pakis on the Maratha paltan for as long as they stayed there.

Incident 2:

Pakis observed that Gorkha soldiers in their OP (Observation Post) just left the LMG (Light Machine Gun) un-attended for 2 to 3 minutes while they went out of the OP for a pee. One summer day at about 11 o' clock in the morning, in a daring raid, two Paki soldiers sneaked in and ran back with the LMG.

Four hours later, which is normally siesta time and security is lax, a team of Gorkha soldiers raided the Pak post and came back with the Paki CO's 15 years old daughter. (Pakistan Army's officers-lot is super privileged. They even stay on border posts with their families.)

The Gorkhas did not harm the child, they just made her sit on a chair on top of the OP bunker. Soon enough, a bunch of Paki jawans came up to the LOC with a white flag and the Gorkhas' LMG, and a neat and clean exchange took place.

Incident 3:

This incident happened when Naga Regiment was newly raised in the Indian Army and Pakis had no clue what material the Nagas were made of! (Those with a weak stomach may please skip reading this incident further.)

The Nagas were also given the customary welcome on their induction, but they did not retaliate. Then, for the next two consecutive nights, a couple of Paki soldiers would cross over to the Indian side, lob hand-grenades at the Naga post and run back.

On the third night, a few Naga soldiers laid an ambush and caught 2 Pakis. They brought the Paki soldiers back enough to be hidden from the Paki OP sights.

They tied the Pakis to a tree, lit a fire and performed a traditional Naga dance! Then they chopped a leg off one of the Paki soldiers and literally barbecued it over the fire. Both the Paki soldiers were let off the next morning, but not before the were made to hear this dialogue between a Naga Havildar and a Sepoy: Sepoy: "Ustaad, inko rakhte hain, bilkul chicken jaisa taste hai." Havildar: "Nahi re, inko jaane do, yeh dono bahut kamjor hain. Ab yahan 3 saal rehna hai; tu tension mat le, aur bahut mote tagde milenge." This news spread like wildfire, and the Pakis (Baluch Regiment) across the LOC were thereafter not to be seen even through binoculars, till the Naga battalion was replaced by another unit after 3 years.

Now-a-days, the only reason Pakistanis keeps blatantly bullying us Indians is because we allow them to do so. How I miss the good old days. Jaane kahan gaye woh din!

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 18 Oct 2015 01:56

rohitvats wrote: On the third night, a few Naga soldiers laid an ambush and caught 2 Pakis. They brought the Paki soldiers back enough to be hidden from the Paki OP sights.

They tied the Pakis to a tree, lit a fire and performed a traditional Naga dance! Then they chopped a leg off one of the Paki soldiers and literally barbecued it over the fire. Both the Paki soldiers were let off the next morning, but not before the were made to hear this dialogue between a Naga Havildar and a Sepoy: Sepoy: "Ustaad, inko rakhte hain, bilkul chicken jaisa taste hai." Havildar: "Nahi re, inko jaane do, yeh dono bahut kamjor hain. Ab yahan 3 saal rehna hai; tu tension mat le, aur bahut mote tagde milenge." This news spread like wildfire, and the Pakis (Baluch Regiment) across the LOC were thereafter not to be seen even through binoculars, till the Naga battalion was replaced by another unit after 3 years.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Oct 2015 02:15

There is a follow up tale,

Dear Friends
Nice to hear stories of Grinders. I too am a Grinder, I will narrate a story which I scripted as a CO.
One day I went to one of my Posts in Balnoi Sector. As soon as I stepped in Pakiis fired on my Post.
To teach them a good lesson I got my MMG loaded up with complete belt of 250 rds, had it taken to the bunker on one side from where I could fire enfilade on the rogue bunker Had the gun properly set up. Once gunners were ready I ordered them to aim at the bunker from where the fire came. When he reported readiness I ordered him to fire the entire belt into that bunker without stopping. Which was done. The Paki bunker was pretty badly damaged and all the inmates wee killed. There after it was end of my problems as far as this aspect was concerned.
These rogues only understand this language. Nothing else works with them. For such a thing we do not need any political decision, the CO could have taken revenge already. I would have done it for the sake of morale and spirits of my men. even at the risk of a court martial
Now that the matter is the hands of the Govt,I hope it takes a decision which makes us proud as a Nation.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Oct 2015 02:53

Let me share another anecdote about Naga soldiers - but this one was serving in the Assam Regiment.

You guys would've read about IA posts adopting stray dogs to keep vigil and serve as a sort of trip wire/early warning mechanism. Well, it seems the Pakees also had done similar stuff opposite the position of an Assam Regiment battalion on LOC. The dogs would detect the ambush positions set-up by Assam Regiment troops and give away the location to Pakees. It happened many a times and there seemed to be no solution in sight.

Well, up walks a Naga soldier with volunteering to solve the issue - his only request was to be give extra meat from lunger and not to be put on duty for next couple of days. And it was agreed.

So, what did the Naga soldier do? Well, he used to put the raw meat on the fence to entice the canine. Initially, the dog did not take the bait but eventually, starting partaking the meat left for him. One fine day, the Naga soldier ambushed the dog as it came to take the meat and slit its throat! And then, in the full view of Pakistani troops across the fence, proceeded to not only skin the dog but cooked and ate it!!!

Pakees never kept sentry dogs post this event as long as Assam Regiment was there.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 18 Oct 2015 02:57

Nagas are badasses, have read a few stories myself. May their tribe increase and take over the pappi-jhappi pasand sickular men of the country

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Oct 2015 20:11

'Hum hain Vikasi'....Song penned by a SFF trooper post 1999 Kargil (where they participated):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oas5jvD7vlQ

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 19 Oct 2015 05:51

Rohit, a link to that fb post please? To share our piss and dialog mentality onlee

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2015 06:43

rohitvats wrote:'Hum hain Vikasi'....Song penned by a SFF trooper post 1999 Kargil (where they participated):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oas5jvD7vlQ

The act of adjusting the blanket on his baby gives the touching effect of a real protector. It may have been unintended but the effect is good

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 21 Oct 2015 05:09

Post on OROP from Major DP Singh*

It may not be written in pukka polished Oxonian English that our desh drohi DDM are so fond of flaunting but its a post written straight from the heart by someone who has fought for the country and put his life on the line, always and every time.

*For those who don't know Major Singh is: He is India's most well known and probably one of the 1st Blade Runners. He competes primarily in half marathons and recently set an Indian record for the highest altitude race completed by an amputee when he ran a half marathon in Ladakh in September 2015. Major Singh lost his leg and part of his stomach/intestines during the Kargil War when he got hit by a mortar shell and was initially declared dead due to his grievous injuries. His story: http://yourstory.com/2014/01/left-dead- ... de-runner/. Now his personal best time for a half marathon is 2 hours 10 mins, faster than most "able bodied" people with 2 legs.

I have pointed him to BRF so that he may join if he so wishes.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Oct 2015 17:03

I think we all came across news of Major Dhruv Yadav passing away during exercise in Pokhran last month. Here is the letter from his mother to her departed son. Posting in full.

http://akkarbakkar.com/this-letter-from ... it-should/

“My dearest dearest Dhruvee,

That you laid down your life during a combat exercise, that the sun set on the Pokhran ranges while our son breathed his last, that you bashed on regardless to be taken away by a cruel act of God, has left a big hole in our hearts.

If…… If only you had gone to the Congo on the U.N Peace Keeping Mission….., if only you had ducked….., if only that shrapnel had grazed your shoulder. You would have been home by our side.

I cannot comprehend why God indulges in acts that make no sense at all. Why did he have to pick on our son who lived every moment like a hero.

I took your life for granted Dhruv. You were meant to be by our side, through the years. Hold our hands while we grew old. You deserted us that day as the desert blew up. It seemed as if every flower that bloomed on the desert was woven into those beautiful wreaths placed by the officers and men while you were draped in the tricolor.

I remember how hard you tried to emulate your father at Rashtriya Indian Military College (RIMC). How your father’s chest grew two inches more when you were made the Pratap Section Commander. A silver torch at National Defence Academy (NDA) that eclipsed your father’s boxing blue. And then the Indian Military Academy (IMA). And then the IMA again as an ‘Instructor’. How you wore the Regiment colors with pride and 75 Armd Regiment became your very heart and soul.

And how we loved to see you wear your olive greens. I wanted to show my ‘fauji’ off to the world.
Surbhi and you were so happy. And so in love. I would give my life to have seen you’ll bring up your little one together.

Namrata says she loves you and will miss your goofy smile. Most of all she’s going to think of you whenever she has it all wrong.

That i felt so proud when you were given the salutations of a ‘shaheed’. That you were referred to as ‘Brave son of India’ who laid down his life with his boots on, firm on top of his tank – ‘Sahasam Viajayate’.

I wish we had told you how infinitely proud we were of you, my son. I wish we had told you that you would have made a super father. I wish we had told you that you were the best son in the world. I wish…..
You were the Kohinoor in my crown.

Goodbye Dhruvee and God bless you and may you always make those around you happy.

Goodbye my Dhruvtara.

Ma.”

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Oct 2015 17:57

^^ That is so heart rending

ashvin · Post by **ashvin** » 22 Oct 2015 18:44

^^^ Yes, truly sad and heart breaking!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Oct 2015 19:22

Very touching.
Yes we don't know whom, when and how God takes us away.

Major Dhruv Yadav lived his life with that in mind and is an inspiration to all to excel in whatever and wherever they are.

He is truly a personification of Dhruv, the North Star that shines brightly to guide us and show our way.

Rohit, Please tweet it so it can be spread around.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Oct 2015 19:35

^^^Done.

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 Oct 2015 17:10

X Posted from the “J&K News and Discussion-2015” thread.

Earthquake: Two army personnel were today injured when their bunker collapsed following tremors in Sopore, 55 kms from here, in north Kashmir's Baramulla district. :

Earthquake: 2 armymen injured in J&K as quake jolts North India

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Oct 2015 16:27

A very interesting tale from FB:

Hardly anyone outside the ASC knows this.

One GS mule named Pedongi is the proud recipient of the Vir Chakra! The true story goes something like this >>>

During the 1971 war, an AT convoy in J&K came under ground attack by Pak army. As per teaching, the AT drivers scattered their mules and went for cover, while the Infantry section accompanying the convoy went into counter-attack. During re-grouping it was discovered that 3 mules were captured and taken away by the Pakis, and Pedongi was one of them.

This usually happens; and whenever they get a chance, our troops also kidnap Paki mules. Since the training of the mules is the same on both sides, ans so is the harness and saddlery, captured mules are simply put to work. Sure enough, Pedongi was also made to haul rations, water-pakhals and other loads in Pakistan.

But a fortnight after her capture, Pedongi reported back in her unit in the Indian Army. And she was carrying a Paki MMG with two boxes of ammunition!

From the way Pedongi was exhausted, it was estimated that she somehow escaped her Paki handlers and ran back almost 20 kms to her own unit in India.

For this act of extreme bravery in the face of the enemy, the Div Commander asked the CO AT Battalion to write Pedongi's citation, and made sure she got a VrC.

Now, what does a VrC mean for a mule? Well, it meant that she never carried a load thereafter. She just ate & drank and roamed around freely in the unit, till she died of old age in 1978.

The above story is open for verification at ASC Center & College, Bangalore, where the medal is preserved to date, along with Pedongi's photograph.

Dedicated 2 all the mules in the indian army, slog on, you may also get a VrC

habal · Post by **habal** » 30 Oct 2015 12:05

what does a jawan doing duty as a batman do if his officer is married to a career slut ?

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/specials/ ... -army.html

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 30 Oct 2015 12:20

^^ wow

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Oct 2015 13:11

^^ Seems to be unusually one sided and liberally slanders the lady without even a "alleged". Guess thats how DDM works.

Wonder what the truth is. Somewhere in between? Sad that 170 jawans are undergoing punishment for this

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Oct 2015 13:41

or do they want an Officer VS Jawan class war?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 30 Oct 2015 13:51

sum wrote:^^ Seems to be unusually one sided and liberally slanders the lady without even a "alleged". Guess thats how DDM works.

Wonder what the truth is. Somewhere in between? Sad that 170 jawans are undergoing punishment for this

I wouldn't fly to the defense of the lady if more than a 160 men feel otherwise in this case.

After hearing all the wife swapping stories, I wouldn't put any sexual deviance beyond these officers and their wives (who are a minuscule minority and in no way represent the Army or the other Forces).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Oct 2015 14:32

Arun Menon wrote:I wouldn't fly to the defense of the lady if more than a 160 men feel otherwise in this case.

After hearing all the wife swapping stories, I wouldn't put any sexual deviance beyond these officers and their wives (who are a minuscule minority and in no way represent the Army or the other Forces).

I might want to temper that language and go easy on such insinuation. Especially when no one, not even the counsel of the accused, has been able to establish it.

That whole article is nothing but absolute BS - remember one thing very clearly: when it comes to Army, any act of dissidence, disobedience, and violence is a very grave crime. And NO MATTER what the provocation. You simply don't do that. Period. The dictum in the army is that if two soldiers are involved in a scuffle, both get punished. The one who started and the other who responded.

Those 160 men are up the shit creek w/o paddle and will say anything and everything in their defense.

And here is the other side of the story. ADGPI took this absolute fabricated stuff very seriously and even put out a detailed reply on SM. Read and then pass your comment.

NDIAN ARMY’S REJOINDER TO THE MALICIOUS ARTICLE ‘TRIAL BY IRE’ IN “THE WEEK” MAGAZINE BY SHRI AJIT KUMAR DUBEY PUBLISHED ON 16TH OCT 2015 (FOR THE WEEK 19 TO 25TH OCT)

1. Please refer to the 'Trial by ire'in The Week magazine by Shri Ajit Kumar Dubey published on 16 Oct 2015 (for the week 19 to 25th Oct) & its online version http://www.theweek.in/…/nyoma-mutiny-in ... e-rift-b…- officers-and-jawans-in-the-army.html).

2. The article on the Nyoma incident, published in “The Week” magazine, is a piece of sensational journalism, one sided and untruthful.

3. The article starts out with slandering a woman who stood in front of a military court martial and convincingly withstood the test of a probing cross-examination. The facts are proven, Suman outraged her modesty, and 'The Week' has outraged it further. The fact that Suman's statement, which has been reported in almost one-third of the article, was found to be baseless by the court, has been ignored.

4. There are other factual errors. The article has stated that “Col Prasad Kadam, tried to flee the area in an official vehicle”. Actually Col Kadam went into the crowd of agitating soldiers to try and calm them. He was attacked and sustained five fractures in his right eye socket and four fractures at the back of the skull. He was hospitalised for three months. The theme running through the article that the accused were not provided opportunity for their defence is also incorrect. In the trial of Suman, Thirty two witnesses were examined, which included six officers and the lady. They were thoroughly cross examined.

5. The Indian Army, just as any other organisation expects journalists to be true to their calling. 'Sensationalism sells' should not be the mantra. 'The Week' and Mr Dubey have proved otherwise.

6. There was a mutiny. Indian Army as a disciplined professional force cannot accept it. Neither should the civil society and the nation at large. Any attempt to colour it by changing its focus into an officer vs soldier conflict will do grave injustice to our Army. The close relationship between officers and men is the bedrock of Army ethos and remains very strong. Making reckless statements on 'divide between the officer and the jawans' is a gross and mischievous misrepresentation of facts.

7. Law has an impartial face, whether it be practiced in Supreme Court or a military Court Martial barrack in Akhnoor. To question the legality of a trial based on loose and one- sided statements of defence lawyers is highly irresponsible. We hope the magazine will now do the right thing to a lady wronged and the organisation to which she belongs by offering an unconditional apology.

Here are the links to image of much larger reply:

https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=56C07A8A

https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=56C21608

https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=56C940B5

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Oct 2015 14:34

habal wrote:what does a jawan doing duty as a batman do if his officer is married to a career slut ?

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/specials/ ... -army.html

What's with the language? Or do you have some special insight into the case which goes contrary to the act of the Army?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 30 Oct 2015 14:47

So, its the words of 160 soldiers vs word of handful officers? Is it established that the norms were violated by the officers by bringing their wives to that place?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 30 Oct 2015 15:05

^It is not even that, it is 160 soldiers vs 1 woman, supported by some officers. I do not think any group of 160 men are going to leap to the defense of a molester, much less 160 soldiers, that too at the risk of their careers. Its not like they don't know the penalty for such disobedience (which I agree must be quite harsh). The fact that the officers have gotten away with mere slaps on the wrist is another suspicious thing.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Oct 2015 15:07

johneeG wrote:So, its the words of 160 soldiers vs word of handful officers? Is it established that the norms were violated by the officers by bringing their wives to that place?

Words of 160 soldiers towards what effect? And what do you think those 160+ soldiers are being tried for?

Those soldiers are being tried for Mutiny. At least most of them are. They went about beating their officers and literally took over the whole unit. It matters diddly squat what led to this behavior. And mutiny is the severest of crimes when it comes to the Services.

Officer's will be punished/have been punished for their crimes and dereliction of duty.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Oct 2015 15:15

Arun Menon wrote:^It is not even that, it is 160 soldiers vs 1 woman, supported by some officers. I do not think any group of 160 men are going to leap to the defense of a molester, much less 160 soldiers, that too at the risk of their careers. Its not like they don't know the penalty for such disobedience (which I agree must be quite harsh). The fact that the officers have gotten away with mere slaps on the wrist is another suspicious thing.

You're reading the whole situation incorrectly.

The chain of events is this: Officer's wife accuses Sahayak of outraging her modesty-->Officers beat-up Sahayak-->News spreads that Sahayak has been thrashed badly and not being admitted to hospital-->rest of the soldiers fly off the handle, thrash officers and take over the unit. Even beat up their CO who tried to intervene.

Almost all of those 160 who are being tried fall into the category of those who reacted to the news of Sahayak having been beat-up badly.

So, it not a case of 160 versus 1 as you make it out to be. It would be 1 versus 1 between the officer's wife and Sahayak because the Sahayak has been punished NOT for mutiny but for outraging the modesty of officer's wife.

For rest, it is a matter of their involvement in the mutiny.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 30 Oct 2015 15:22

You are telling me these 160 soldiers didn't bother to ask why he was thrashed? That they did all this without hearing the allegation against the sahayak? Don't you find it strange that in these 160 soldiers (including junior officers) had so little trust in their commanders. Isn't it true that the sahayak was thrashed mercilessly and not taken to hospital, is the the normal disciplinary procedure of the Army? What punishment did the officers receive for this? Was it commensurate with their crimes?

habal · Post by **habal** » 30 Oct 2015 15:23

Everything about this is wrong !

1. It's the word of the officer against the word of the sepoy. Even military courts seem to take the officer's word and aquit them of any responsibility because hey the jawans mutinied. So officer's word takes precedence.

2. Why have batmen in close proximity with wives & girlfriends and do not expect something like this ? Grin & bear it then. Officers have bought this upon themselves and have only themselves to blame. You got a male ayah and want him to be neutered one on top and that too on sarkari kharcha-paani. If the batmen make out with wives then grin and bear it and take it in your stride.

3. disproportionate punishment, for jawans and light reprimands for officers. It will spoil morale of jawans and in future we will see what consequences it brings to bear.

4. It's highly likely that both the sepoy and the officer's wife were equally involved, but she gets away lightly. It isn't easy for such a thing to happen if the woman in picture does nothing to initiate or respond. The sepoy isn't going to force himself on his officers wife. That is called rape. If that happened then he would have been shot and then the entire matter hushed up. No other jawan would have taken sides with the sepoy as well.

It's a pack instinct and the officers are one pack against the less empowered pack of jawans. Sadly for jawans the military courts are also manned by officers. Game, Set & Match for officers.

It's a situation wherein the govt should interfere and set things straight rather than leave everything to the army to sort out. They are not capable of doing it.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 30 Oct 2015 15:29

^^^Totally agree on each and every point.

rohitvats wrote:
johneeG wrote:So, its the words of 160 soldiers vs word of handful officers? Is it established that the norms were violated by the officers by bringing their wives to that place?
Words of 160 soldiers towards what effect? And what do you think those 160+ soldiers are being tried for?

Those soldiers are being tried for Mutiny. At least most of them are. They went about beating their officers and literally took over the whole unit. It matters diddly squat what led to this behavior. And mutiny is the severest of crimes when it comes to the Services.

Officer's will be punished/have been punished for their crimes and dereliction of duty.

If we have to simply take sides: then 160 people's words carry more weight than a few handful people when both sides are trying to protect themselves and hurt the other side. Anyway, its not surprising that the officers words are given more weight than so many soldiers. If it was colonel's word vs officers, then the colonel would have carried the day. So, its simple hierarchy.

If these soldiers are being tried for mutiny(which is really big issue), the most important thing from the army(and country) point of view is: why did it happen? and how to stop them in future? If the officers created the mess by bringing their wives into the equation, then they are the ones who made mistake in my view.

So, it would be quite important to know who is the guilty party who created this situation.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Oct 2015 15:32

Arun Menon wrote:You are telling me these 160 soldiers didn't bother to ask why he was thrashed? That they did all this without hearing the allegation against the sahayak? Don't you find it strange that in these 160 soldiers (including junior officers) had so little trust in their commanders. Isn't it true that the sahayak was thrashed mercilessly and not taken to hospital, is the the normal disciplinary procedure of the Army? What punishment did the officers receive for this? Was it commensurate with their crimes?

Well, like I said, it DOES NOT matter whether these soldiers checked on the veracity of the story. While the CGM has found the Sahayak guilty and punished him to 7 years RI, even if he had been not guilty, the conduct of the Soldiers at the time cannot and will not be condoned. Let there be no ambiguity about it. What they did was against the Army rules.

As for Officers, they've been punished for their conduct (physical assault on the soldier) and dereliction of duty. I think the case of loss of command and control also applies. Their punishment will be basis these charges and not Mutiny.

News reports talk about 4 officers, including CO, being punished. But not as severely as the soldiers. Now, why should CO be punished? Because it happened under his watch what the IA will terms as 'complete loss of command and control'. His career in the IA is finished.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 30 Oct 2015 15:38

Forget the heavy punishments the jawans (and junior officers mind you) got, why aren't the officers punished properly when in every explanation the brutal assault of the sahayak and their refusal to send him to hospital is acknowledged. What if that man had died? Is it difficult to imagine that man would have died if the soldiers didn't take action?

One is not even asking for an amnesty for the soldiers, just that they be given the right punishment and the officers ALSO be given the RIGHT punishment.

Is the punishment for brutal, life-threatening assault in the Army so mild? Is it because the victim was of lower rank?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 30 Oct 2015 15:53

Military: Arrogance of Seniority
By
Maj Gen Mrinal Suman
Issue
Net Edition
| Date : 14 Apr , 2014

Starred Golf - Caddie on the Left is Displaying Three Stars while the Middle One Shows Two Stars

Search for recognition is one of the pursuits which all human beings indulge in and continuously strive for. For professionals, promotions and advancement in career are important aspects of their aspirations. In the services, rank achieved is a conspicuous and well-recognised measure of a soldier’s professional competence and an indicator of his progression. As rank fixes one’s place in the services hierarchy, senior officers have every reason to be proud of their achievement. They are justified in deriving a sense of justification from the heavy brass they carry on their shoulders. In a steep pyramid-like organisation, promotions do not come easily.

Senior commanders and their wives remain surrounded by their staff officers and cronies. They make no effort to walk up to the juniors to exchange pleasantries. At times one gets an impression that the senior brass considers it below their dignity to mix with subordinate officers.

However, it is equally important that they carry their rank with due dignity and composure. They should neither carry them to ridiculous limits nor flaunt them in an unbecoming manner. Increasing arrogance of seniority is clearly discernible in stratification of social events and indiscriminate flaunting of flags and stars, as discussed below.

Social Discrimination

There was a time when senior officers and their wives made use of social occasions to interact with junior officers and their wives to get a feel of their morale and establish informal rapport with them. On the other hand, junior officers and their wives learnt a great deal by watching the way the senior officers and their wives conducted themselves. Thus, social functions were considered to be excellent occasions to build cohesion in an informal manner. Additionally, military norms, ethics and values were passed on to the new-inductees.

Unfortunately, social functions have become highly stratified events. There is no interaction between the seniors and the juniors. Separate areas are earmarked for them. Exclusive seating for VIPs has become a standard practice. Senior commanders and their wives remain surrounded by their staff officers and cronies. They make no effort to walk up to the juniors to exchange pleasantries. At times one gets an impression that the senior brass considers it below their dignity to mix with subordinate officers.

There are three reasons for this obsession for exclusivity. One, senior officers get special treatment in terms of quality of liquor and food. Two, they get hospitality free whereas they should be paying for their drinks and food like the other officers. Finally, the current top brass is so self-seeking that it has no concern for others’ sensitivities and social niceties.

Earlier, all guests were treated at par and served the same food and drinks, irrespective of their rank. The only privilege that a senior officer enjoyed was that he was served his drink by the waiter and did not have to walk up to the bar like others. Today, not only the type of whisky but also the goblet – crystal for seniors and Borosil for others – are rank based.

Today, not only the type of whisky but also the goblet – crystal for seniors and Borosil for others – are rank based.

A few months ago, an Air Force Station had organised a social evening after an event and invited a large number of officers from the services. Prior to the serving of dinner, an announcement was made requesting all officers of one-star rank and their wives to have dinner in the hall while the others were asked to move to the tents on the side. It was such an insulting move that many officers and their wives walked out without dinner. One fails to understand how such petty mindedness has crept in the services’ culture. If a Brigadier or a General has dinner along with others, will it lower his dignity?

At a post-tournament dinner at an officers’ institute, the Army Commander, after showing his face for a few minutes, withdrew to an exclusive chamber along with his ‘Nav Ratnas’ (Major Generals) to enjoy the evening and exclusive hospitality. Others were left outside to interact with each other – a reminder of the grand old Mughal tradition of ‘Diwane Khaas’ and ‘Diwane Aam’.

Golf Cap with Stars Indicating Rank of the Player

Protocol golf is another innovative measure that displays haughtiness of seniority. In case senior commanders want to play golf after a conference, the golf course is declared off limits for others. It is a disgraceful sight to see 4 to 5 commanders playing golf on an 18-hole golf course with staff officers who are detailed to accompany them. It shows arrogance of the poorest order. Do the senior commanders find it demeaning if Colonels and Majors are also playing at the same time? Arrogance of rank cannot be carried to such limits.

Flaunting of Ranks

It must never be forgotten that badges of ranks worn by the soldiers represent national symbols – the Ashoka Lion and the five-pointed Indian Star. The nation has bestowed its greatest honour on its soldiers. Every officer understandably takes pride in his rank by displaying the stars and flying the flag that he is entitled to. However, it must be done with due decorum and as per the laid down norms. Their sanctity should never be demeaned. Of late, a tendency has been discernible amongst the senior officers to flaunt their stars and flags in most unbecoming manner.

…a garden umbrella at a divisional tennis court had two stars prominently displayed on it to indicate that it was exclusively reserved for the Divisional Commander and his wife.

Although display of star plates and flags on private cars is forbidden, many officers feel insecure without their use and openly flout the orders. There are many commanders who insist that the mules that they ride in mountainous terrain must be duly embellished with stars and flags – a ridiculous sight indeed. Similarly, it was a shocking sight to see a Chief flying his flag and displaying four stars on his golf cart in New Delhi.

Recently, a photograph was circulated on the internet that showed golf caddies wearing jackets with stars prominently displayed on their backs to indicate ranks of the players they were assisting. Can there be a more ludicrous demonstration of disgraceful obsession with ranks?

Another absurd practice that has gained currency in the recent past is to present golf caps and tee-shirts to all participants with their ranks duly indicated through embossed/embroidered stars. It is a comical sight to see officers playing golf with their ranks duly advertised. It appears that senior officers are unable to swing their clubs unless adequately supported by the trappings of their ranks.

In another case, a garden umbrella at a divisional tennis court had two stars prominently displayed on it to indicate that it was exclusively reserved for the Divisional Commander and his wife. As human ingenuity has no limits, there are numerous such examples wherein display of rank has been carried to preposterous extent.

Senior commanders would do well to remember that humility is the hall mark of a good leader and a meta-virtue. A self-effacing demeanour indicates maturity and not meekness or timidity.

Many senior officers complain that they never demand such displays and that some over-enthusiastic juniors take initiative of their own accord. This explanation holds no water at all. Unless the junior officers are convinced that their initiative would fetch them a pat, they would never take the risk. Additionally, senior commanders can always order stoppage of such practices if they so desire. The fact is that they relish such treatment as it boosts their ego, gives them a ‘kick’ and makes them feel special.

Finally

Informal interaction between officers of different ranks should always be governed by the dictum that ‘a good senior does not flaunt his seniority all the time while a good junior does not forget his juniority at any time’. That should be the basis of healthy social equilibrium.

It must never be forgotten that the officers who fail to make to higher ranks are not incompetent. It is just that the steep pyramid-like structure provides limited promotional avenues. Many brilliant officers suffer due to the shortage of vacancies and retire as Colonels. Supersession impacts their psyche and they show signs of social withdrawal. Instead of reassuring them, social discrimination adds to their discomfort through shameless display of inequities. Worse, ‘social apartheid’ is widening the gulf between the top brass and the others.

Senior commanders would do well to remember that humility is the hall mark of a good leader and a meta-virtue. A self-effacing demeanour indicates maturity and not meekness or timidity. Humility is all about maintaining one’s pride about one’s worth and achievements, but without arrogance. It is an old saying that ‘those who achieve the most flaunt the least’.

Link

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 30 Oct 2015 17:20

rohitvats wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:^It is not even that, it is 160 soldiers vs 1 woman, supported by some officers. I do not think any group of 160 men are going to leap to the defense of a molester, much less 160 soldiers, that too at the risk of their careers. Its not like they don't know the penalty for such disobedience (which I agree must be quite harsh). The fact that the officers have gotten away with mere slaps on the wrist is another suspicious thing.
You're reading the whole situation incorrectly.

The chain of events is this: Officer's wife accuses Sahayak of outraging her modesty-->Officers beat-up Sahayak-->News spreads that Sahayak has been thrashed badly and not being admitted to hospital-->rest of the soldiers fly off the handle, thrash officers and take over the unit. Even beat up their CO who tried to intervene.

Almost all of those 160 who are being tried fall into the category of those who reacted to the news of Sahayak having been beat-up badly.

So, it not a case of 160 versus 1 as you make it out to be. It would be 1 versus 1 between the officer's wife and Sahayak because the Sahayak has been punished NOT for mutiny but for outraging the modesty of officer's wife.

For rest, it is a matter of their involvement in the mutiny.

160 soldiers believed the sahayak. No one would have supported if he was a guilty molester.
Rohitvats, as I understand the chain of events:
Sahayak is forced upon by Officer's wife --> Sahayak complains to his JCOs --> they believe but cannot take any action
Parallely Officer's wife accuses Sahayak of outraging her modesty-->Officers believe woman --> Officers beat-up Sahayak-->News spreads that Sahayak has been thrashed badly ---> Officers do not allow treatment -->rest of the soldiers fly off the handle, thrash officers and take over the unit. Even beat up their CO who tried to intervene.

Original Sin committed by woman.
Fellow officers believing her committed further sin.
Soldier get angry and commit further sin.

If anyone who should be thrashed in all this, it is the woman.
Soldiers are paying the price for her perfidy.
Does the military court judges include soldiers?

Our army is essentially a British Army Construct.
All the power for Officers continues from British days. Only Indians have replaced Britishers.
Its a reality that Officers and officer's family including their bratty kids treat soldier & sahayak class as cattle class.

This British culture problem needs a fix. long overdue.
Ending sahayak system is one step in this.

Whole discrimination / reservation / differentiation between Officer class and soldiers need to questioned and examined.