Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Oct 2015 21:04

I want to address the experts on periods and tampons. Let women handle that. If they say they can, and they can pass every test at par with men, then they can. Doesn't matter what you think or feel!
[\quote]
But can they? Just because they say they can doesn't mean much. I understand you feel that this is exclusively a woman domain of expertise, but there are male physicians who might know better. More importantly, this is about national security, and concerns men as well, them saying they can, does not serve anything. Objectivity is a concern.

In short, stop being the judge. Candidates who pass the test, are selected. There is no other criteria. Not your feeling, not the western feeling, not the woman's feeling, nothing!

Hmm, and you are absolutely sure that this is 100% meritocracy based and no other factors make any difference? nobody is being a judge but why are reasonable discussions being summarily shot down,?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 27 Oct 2015 21:07

Rahul M... u r right but u should also know that the quality of 'men' pilots has been pretty low in recent past ( as per my cousin who was a flight instructor at AFA and now retired from IAF as a 2 star officer). As per him a fair no should not have been inducted as pilots but such are the shortfalls in numbers that ..... Many of the air crashes have been attributed to such pilots. I think as others have stated that if woman can meet the standards they should be inducted. Even if in the worst case they are restricted to comabt flying in indian territory in the event of war, its a welcome addition to the talent pool. such a move will raise the overall level of the AF.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 27 Oct 2015 21:08

the point i am making is that standards have been reduced for men pilots ... to make up for the numbers..

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Oct 2015 21:11

ramana wrote:If they had women in officer positions, some of the idiotic decisions like Operation Riddle would never have happened for they would have not been Nimrods.
Not patrolling own bunkers and rely on Pak goodwill type would not happen.

I don't think you're being fair here Ramanaji. Accepting that women have the mettle to be great leaders also requires one to accept that female leaders are more than capable of matching their male colleagues when it comes to plain boneheadedness.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 27 Oct 2015 21:13

Why stop at women only? Allow eunuchs, gays, transgenders too. Change the name too. IAF to IFF( In dian freak force).

warned and banned for a month. saw Indranil's post after that,
- Rahul

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 27 Oct 2015 21:17

darshan ji..maybe u forget shikhandi... but enuchs have participated in battles in ancient times. and i am sure gays, transgenders are serving their countries well.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 27 Oct 2015 21:29

Well, here is one such scholarly link which tells that menstruation does not have any noticeable effect on high G and have some effect on some days in motion sickness.

Of course some professional hakim in BRF has to authenticate such scholarly words as I am singularly incapable

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=_6h ... &q&f=false

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 27 Oct 2015 21:32

manjgu wrote:darshan ji..maybe u forget shikhandi... but enuchs have participated in battles in ancient times. and i am sure gays, transgenders are serving their countries well.

yeah sure. Let's have a fag squadron specializing in deep penetration

Enough of this language. Banned for a month. NO ONE ELSE RESPOND TO HIS POSTS - Admin

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Oct 2015 21:32

Cain Marko wrote:
In short, stop being the judge. Candidates who pass the test, are selected. There is no other criteria. Not your feeling, not the western feeling, not the woman's feeling, nothing!
Hmm, and you are absolutely sure that this is 100% meritocracy based and no other factors make any difference? nobody is being a judge but why are reasonable discussions being summarily shot down,?

Believe it or not, you are being a judge! You are doubting their capability before they are tested. Selections should be made on meritocracy and nothing else, men or women. No concessions should be made and everybody given equal chance to serve.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 27 Oct 2015 21:35

^^^ Okay Cairn Marko ji, I did not want to participate any further in this discussion but still here is my reply -

I was around three when as per my parents I first said "Eye baunt to be a Pilot". My mum has kept numerous school notebooks of mine in which I had drawn pictures and pictures of planes. I had so many scrap books of aircraft photos from newspapers that my parents stopped providing me additional shelf space to store them.

I did my 12th and I went to NDA and then I then I went on to become a pilot in the IAF. I did not become a 'fighter pilot' but I had a good shot at it. It was my inability at the end but no one denied me the opportunity. Trust me not one soul who trained with me had a story which said I came here because I did not get through elsewhere. Everyone was desperate to become a fighter pilot.

What if I was born a girl?

The differences in physical ability exists for the average joe. In one year India produces about 75 - 80 fighter pilots or maybe fewer. Out of these hardly 10 will be women. This is an elite of elite club in terms of numbers. Are you saying that we do not have 10 women per year who have such dreams for which they will willingly put everything on line? IAF just like you does not want to dilute standards.

However, women will be inducted differently. There absorption, training, progress over an extended period will be studied. For women, this is just the first door that has opened in fighter flying. Slowly and after many considered decisions new venues may or may not open within this stream.

Atleast, let them have a shot at it. If they fail - fine, they do not make fighter pilots.

The battle of sexes to me does not justify smothering aspiration. If one aspires and if one is ready to work for it - law or regulations should not bar a person from serving his / her country in ones chosen path.

On question of women pilot in combat zone from the IAF:

http://shethepeople.tv/gunjan-saxena-sa ... mbat-zone/

Since I know Gunjan (she was senior to me) it would be unfair to single her out but she did not shirk nor did she boast.

CM ji, as an aside but an interesting fact if you did not know already - Lara Dutta (Miss India, famous actor, etc) has a sister Sheryll Dutta, who was a helicopter pilot in IAF. Two women, sisters, vastly different aspirations.

Also, none of the transport or helicopters in India have a toilet. Maybe the VIP machines have, not the common ones.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Oct 2015 21:36

DELETED.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Oct 2015 21:47

manjgu wrote:the point i am making is that standards have been reduced for men pilots ... to make up for the numbers..

there must be some minimum criteria that one needs to fulfil to become a pilot. all I am saying is those should not be selectively diluted for anybody, men, women or anybody else.

Indranil, for people with that brand of bias, just point them to the history of the sacred band of thebes, sit back and relax.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Oct 2015 21:50

^^^ I was just about to get some popcorn, but you nipped it at the bud.

Just kidding. It was the right thing to do.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Oct 2015 22:13

Indranil, actually the judgment was passed by those who think this is a good thing. I'm simply questioning that perspective, admittedly, I'm not sure it is such a great thing, time will tell I suppose.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Oct 2015 22:33

Picklu wrote:Well, here is one such scholarly link which tells that menstruation does not have any noticeable effect on high G and have some effect on some days in motion sickness.

Of course some professional hakim in BRF has to authenticate such scholarly words as I am singularly incapable

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=_6h ... &q&f=false

Good find..my question has more to do with the length of time that one can go without changing the apparatus. 3-4 hours is recommended by most authorities depending on certain factors, 8 hours is pushing it and max allowed. So, on a fighter aircraft have women's sorties to be limited to below 3-4 hours on particular days of a month since changing the same in-flight is likely not possible? Or is there some workaround?

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 27 Oct 2015 22:53

Temporary measures are very common like BCP. In fact my fiancee took that option when she figured out that her "days" may encroach the "lagna" for our marriage ceremony

I have heard that female sports persons continue with pill for 3 months at a stretch so that it does not interfere with their practice sessions etc. Even higher interval like 8-9 months are not uncommon among the pros. So, if required, our band of flying ladies will surely be able to manage to delay the onset of those "days" for long intervals (like months) when the yellow matter is about to hit the fan.

When Lalu prasad is not hit by a falling fan, they can plan for short duration sorties on those special "days".

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Oct 2015 22:59

CM, you know that there are women pilots for the U-2, right? You must have also heard about Amelia Earhart, Amy Johnson. Well these relate to endurance. How about Svetlana Savitskaya, Sabiha Gokcen, and more recently Liu Yang regarding excellence as combat pilots?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Oct 2015 23:02

or even our own transport pilots, some of whom are of the female persuasion. those flights are not exactly short.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 27 Oct 2015 23:05

Tampons have time limits, pads do not.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 27 Oct 2015 23:09

Once it is proven that many woman can fly during period without any bad physiological effect, the bulk disqualification factor based on that vanishes. Some women will have painful cramps during period and may not qualify. That would be similar like a male with bad eye sight for example.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Oct 2015 23:24

Ah yes, was forgetting the pill....this should make it easier. didn't know iaf transports don't have loos. Thanks for the education. What I read from a shornet pilots account was that even urination is a pain in the neck in the cramped spaces and all the gear involved esp. for long flights.I was wondering if menses would further complicate the issue, guess not

Indranil, the names you have chosen are hardly typical, but I take the point. If there are no technical issues perse, that is useful indeed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Oct 2015 05:52

Too much talk about tampons from people who have probably never had any personal use for one. Visit any store in india and you will find sanitary napkins displayed prominently; hardly any tampons. TV ads show sanitary napkins. Not tampons. Women I see in hospitals wear napkins not tampons. Unmarried women in India tend to use napkins not tampons. Tampon use is practically non existent in India. . Women who get toxic shock syndrome from tampons need to keep one inside for days or weeks till it is infected and full of bacteria. Changing one when it's work is done will not suddenly lead to toxic shock syndrome. All talk about tampons and pilots can be discarded as pointless. If male pilots can use nappies on long flights, women can use sanitary napkins.

Excess bleeding from high G manoeuvres is a theoretical possibility based on physics. In practice high G does not last for hours or even minutes. High G manoeuvres last for seconds and most IAF sorties in fighters do not last more than one hour of which high G may total a few seconds. The problem with persistent Hi G is loss of consciousness and not extra period bleeding.

Indian Aviation medicine is pretty good and there are a competent bunch there and one can trust them to reach the right conclusions about women and flying. A difference in sexual organs is not a good reason for keeping women off flying fighters.

If you take the career life of an average pilot as say 20 years and assume the total number of pilots to be 1000 - you get 20,000 pilot-years of flying. In these 20,000 pilot years wars with Pakistan or any other nation will add up to hardly one pilot-year and the chances of being taken POW even lower. So the possibility that women may be taken POW and raped is not a good excuse to keep women off flying. Girls grow up travelling in buses and walking around malls exposed to groping and lewd comments and most parents equip them to cope because they cannot be protected 24x7 by mards unless sharia is imposed on them. Those who have adult daughters who are modern Indian girls will probably understand how wimmens see this. A flying career is an honourable one and women must not be kept out unless there are solid reasons for doing so.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 28 Oct 2015 07:04

^Come on, are you actually comparing the groping and pinching in buses to the kind of stuff that happened in the Delhi rape case? Because that and worse than that is what the pakis are capable off.

Many people feel the need to force "equality" for the sake of it, but I am not one of them. Frankly, I do agree with allowing female fighter pilots if they qualify for it and can picture the consequence if they get shot down in paki land, which I can stoically stomach, but what about the society we live in? Will they be able to?

The other question is who is really pushing for this? Is it a pilot-starved IAF or social justice warriors? If the IAF is the real force behind this decision then all is well, but if it is the other party, then the question is, will they be satisfied with this? Clearly, to become a fighter pilot, one has to be the best of the best. Likely, very few women will qualify or maybe none at all, at least in the beginning. What will these social justice warriors demand for then? Will they be objective and stop their crusade or will they continue to push their agenda to get in female fighter pilots in significant numbers (50%)? Would they care about reduced standards? Would the politicians care (BJP may not be in power)? Will the IAF be able to withstand that much pressure?

Unfortunately, there are more things in play here than a woman's capabilities as an individual. Sad as it is, that is the reality we live in and any decision we make cannot be divorced from that reality.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 28 Oct 2015 07:10

Problem with taking pills to forestall periods is that one may not be able to get it back when needed. I am not suggesting that the pills themselves may cause this effect, though I have heard horrors stories of how sports women suffer from such sad side effects due to their pill use. It may just be that naturally the periods had stopped at that time and the usage of the pill was just a coincidence. It would be nice if anyone with real medical knowledge confirm this one way or otherwise.

Anyway, so long as the risks are understood and agreed upon, I see no reason why periods should stop a female from becoming a fighter pilot, if she can take the necessary measures.

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Oct 2015 07:12

^^^

AM, please move on. You are going on a circular argument that you have already stated quite a few times. If you choose to believe what you believe then that is for you and others on the forum can make their own judgements. No need to keep repeating the same thing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Oct 2015 07:57

Arun Menon wrote:^Come on, are you actually comparing the groping and pinching in buses to the kind of stuff that happened in the Delhi rape case? Because that and worse than that is what the pakis are capable off.

The idea that female fighter pilots may get captured and raped in Pakistan is a ludicrous faux concern that is simply being posted as a strawman. That is no reason for keeping them off fighter flying. Most fighter pilots never see combat. Peacetime work is at least as important as wartime work. Women are being groped every day and raped less often. The chances of a woman IAF pilot getting raped in Pakistan is so low compared to those events I just wonder why people do not recommend that women should keep off buses and public transport.

I think the excuses are ridiculous (my views)
1. Women have periods and bellyaches
2. Women wear tampons
3. Women could be raped
Therefore women should not become fighter pilots. Laughable tripe.

My last post on this.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 28 Oct 2015 08:19

srai wrote:^^^

AM, please move on. You are going on a circular argument that you have already stated quite a few times. If you choose to believe what you believe then that is for you and others on the forum can make their own judgements. No need to keep repeating the same thing.

I know I am going circular, but it is only because no one has cared to explain why my arguments are wrong. Instead they just ignore it or outright deny it without giving any real explanations as to why.

Anyway, this is the last post from me on this matter currently.

Also, Shiv, I disagree with you. In your mind a woman getting groped or pinched in a bus might be comparable to a woman being raped/tortured most inhumanely by the vermin to our west, but it is not so for me and it might not be so for much of India. Let us leave it at that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Oct 2015 09:09

other than imposing strict sharia and mandate that men chaperons must always accompany women, there is no way to protect indian women from the world entirely. even women accompanied by men have been assaulted (see L&M thread for one video I posted - right in front of sahara mall gurgaon and the nirbhaya case).

so really its just another profession where they would accept risk, but only in exceptional circumstance....not daily like bus gropings and mewlings.

it is also totally voluntary choice. none would be coerced into fighter stream despite meeting qualifying std. if they want and qualify for 'safer' transport pilot job none would stop either.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Oct 2015 10:42

Hope ijt spin tests went well

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 28 Oct 2015 11:35

suryag wrote:Hope ijt spin tests went well

+1

member_29004 · Post by **member_29004** » 28 Oct 2015 11:36

indranilroy wrote:CM, you know that there are women pilots for the U-2, right? You must have also heard about Amelia Earhart, Amy Johnson. Well these relate to endurance. How about Svetlana Savitskaya, Sabiha Gokcen, and more recently Liu Yang regarding excellence as combat pilots?

Heck, I dont have any problem Indian Women fighter pilots gets captured behind in Russia, China, USA or even South America ; But do I feel the same if she gets captured in Pakistan, Middle east. No. These people simply dont have the same value system.

I am sure women, who choose such profession, gets into it knowing fully well the dangers, but I am more bothered about our reaction as public, government and armed forces, if a female pilot is captured. Everybody remembers IC -814, our reaction to such a capture will be different to that of a male pilot, good possiblity of us being vulnerable and giving in.

member_29089 · Post by **member_29089** » 28 Oct 2015 11:51

In the book "Charlie Wilson's War" it was mentioned that Afghans used to rape captured Soviet (male) soldiers. So This PakJabi / Pashun Mohammadens don't discriminate amongst male, female or goat as far as rape. We should stop this discussion about what if female pilots get captured and then what...

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 28 Oct 2015 11:53

Request to mods and members to move the discussion to women in combat thread, which is an excellent repository of this particular debate with excellent contributions especially by Dr shiv.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Oct 2015 23:28

I guess threads have made it a habit of vanishing ........................ could not find teh one on Transports

JTull wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/defence-ministry-to-clear-military-deals-worth-rs-5000-cr/articleshow/49561226.cms

...
Parrikar, who is set to leave for Russia on Friday, is also likely to discuss the possible acquisition of two new Kilo class submarines for the Indian Navy that is battling with a depleted underwater fleet. India currently operates nine Kilo submarines under the Sindhughosh class and had lost one to a major explosion at the Mumbai harbour in 2013.

The two submarines are being offered as a quick option to fill gaps as St Petersburg already has a line of advanced Kilo class submarines under production for the Russian Navy as well as a Vietnamese order.

...

The government is set to clear two major military purchases from Russia days before Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's visit to Moscow, including a comprehensive upgrade of India's Ilyushin transport aircraft fleet and the acquisition of 150 new armoured fighting vehicles.

Point being no IL-476. ?????

Follows the similar action by the RuAF too.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Oct 2015 00:10

simple search with 'transport'

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5754&hilit=transport&start=3120

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Oct 2015 06:36

afghan warlords keep a stable of young boys for pleasure. the term used is "baccha bazi". so even child rape is quite the norm for warlords. the people resent it but warlords have the guns. the US green beret who beat up one warlord with his buddy's help was doing it for this reason.

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 29 Oct 2015 07:53

Singha wrote:afghan warlords keep a stable of young boys for pleasure. the term used is "baccha bazi". so even child rape is quite the norm for warlords. the people resent it but warlords have the guns. the US green beret who beat up one warlord with his buddy's help was doing it for this reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKHPTHx0ScQ

@ 27:00 mins US Army Major describing this behavior. one can see the disgust on his face.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 29 Oct 2015 09:24

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/10/d ... ac-to.html

By Ajai Shukla
HAL, Bengaluru
Business Standard, 29th Oct 15

On Thursday, the defence ministry’s apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) will discuss a project the Indian Air Force (IAF) has tried for years to kill. However, the Hindustan Turbo Trainer - 40 (HTT-40) basic trainer aircraft has not just survived but will take to the skies shortly.

The HTT-40 project is alive because, even as the IAF insisted on a Swiss trainer --- the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II --- and on shutting the HTT-40 project to buy more Pilatus trainers; Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) proceeded with the Indian alternative.

In an unprecedented show of confidence, HAL allocated Rs 350 crore of internal funding for the HTT-40, after the IAF stonewalled HAL’s “detailed project report” (DPR), which asked for funds.

On Thursday, in a triumph for “Make in India”, HAL will brief the DAC that the HTT-40 is on track to fly before the financial year-end. Another two years will go in flight-testing and, by March 2018, the HTT-40 will be ready for serial production.

Despite IAF’s insistence that the HTT-40 cannot be built, three successive defence ministers --- AK Antony, Arun Jaitley and now Manohar Parrikar --- have steadfastly backed HAL. Now, their faith is being vindicated.

“The IAF is working closely with us and is now willing to fund the project. But we have decided to first fly the aircraft and then move the file for funding. This is HAL’s vote of confidence in the project,” said HAL chairman, T Suvarna Raju.

IAF head, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, addressing the media ahead of Air Force Day last month, publicly accepted the HTT-40. “As we get the HTT-40, indigenously built by HAL as a basic trainer, I think we will be well on our way in making up the deficiencies in our pilot training”, said Raha.

The IAF trains its fighter pilots in three phases. Stage-1 training of rookies, done on propeller-driven basic trainers will be on the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II and the HTT-40, when it joins the fleet. Next, pilots will graduate to Stage-2 training on the Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT), which is completing development. Then pilots do Stage-3 training on the Hawk advanced jet trainer (AJT), which HAL builds under licence from BAE Systems.

To bring the IAF around to accepting the HTT-40, the defence ministry cut a deal in the DAC in February. It was agreed the IAF would buy 38 more Pilatus trainers under the “options clause” of the May 24, 2012 contract for 75 PC-7 Mark II aircraft. HAL, in turn, agreed to pare down its HTT-40 order to 70 aircraft from the promised 106. HAL said at least 70 trainers were needed for economical production.

Business Standard visited the HTT-40 design centre in HAL Bengaluru, where the first prototype is being assembled in the fabrication hangar. A Honeywell TPE-331-12B engine, a version of which is already flying with the IAF, navy and coast guard on the Dornier-228 aircraft, will power the HTT-40. The engine has arrived and is waiting to be fitted into the first prototype.

The design team calls the HTT-40 a “nice, simple aircraft”, which is unlikely to create problems in the crucial spin and stall trials. These prove that an aircraft a trainee pilot has stalled, or put into a spin, can bring itself back easily into level flight.

“We will set up our production line in HAL Bengaluru, with a rated output of 20 trainers each year. The first year we will build just two aircraft, eight in the second year and 20 aircraft from year-three onwards”, says the design team head.

Since the IAF has committed to buying just 70 HTT-40s, HAL might run out of orders by 2022. However, the HTT-40 could be built in larger numbers if the IAF rejects the Sitara. In that eventuality, the IAF chief has an alternative plan for Stage-2 training to be done using the expanded flying envelope of the Stage-1 trainers.

“As soon as we get the HTT-40… this aircraft will also be used in Stage-2 training if we find that it meets our requirements. If it doesn’t, the HTT-40 will be used only in Stage-1 training”, said Raha.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Oct 2015 10:26

Abhay_S wrote:
Singha wrote:afghan warlords keep a stable of young boys for pleasure. the term used is "baccha bazi". so even child rape is quite the norm for warlords. the people resent it but warlords have the guns. the US green beret who beat up one warlord with his buddy's help was doing it for this reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKHPTHx0ScQ

@ 27:00 mins US Army Major describing this behavior. one can see the disgust on his face.

Gents, appreciate the importance of news and all but wrong thread

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 29 Oct 2015 11:11

Any update on IJT Sitara stall/spin tests?