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rsangram wrote:What you are saying is all platitudes and leap of faith. No evidence. Gujarat is an anomaly in India. Rest of India, particularly North and North Eastern India is a different planet than Gujarat.
You are welcome to be down in the dumps, if it makes you feel better
BTW, regarding evidence,
To make matters worst, Modi found himself with a treasury, not merely empty, but in red, and in a hole so deep, that there really was no money whatsoever.
where's the evidence for this? Does the Pradhan Mantri keep the nation's treasury in a safe in his bedroom, and count the money himself? He doesn't. There is a whole bureaucracy that keeps track of the money; and the nation's "hole so deep" could hardly fail to be widely and publicly known. So, if we're speaking of evidence, do provide some basis for the previously made assertions.
A_Gupta wrote:
where's the evidence for this? Does the Pradhan Mantri keep the nation's treasury in a safe in his bedroom, and count the money himself? He doesn't. There is a whole bureaucracy that keeps track of the money; and the nation's "hole so deep" could hardly fail to be widely and publicly known. So, if we're speaking of evidence, do provide some basis for the previously made assertions.
It is reasonably well known. I dont have any special insider knowledge. Many people know about this. There is no money to invest heavily in infra-structure. Governments, present and past, have been trying to talk up India's potential to foreigners, foreign governments, companies, multi-lateral institutions and financial institutions, everywhere, to entice them to invest on infra-structure projects in India. This is because previous governments spent most of the government money in subsidies to buy votes and stole the rest. If you have people stealing lakhs or crores, and spend thousands of crores on subsidies, and another thousands of crores on special packages to cesspools like J&K and Bihar, not to mention Bengal, it is no secret, nor a surprise that pretty soon, you will run out of people's money. It is not too difficult to surmise. If the government had any money at all, you could bet your bottom dollar, Modi will be embarking on several big infra-structure projects and massive defense build up. The fact that he has not done either, is evidence enough, that there is no money.
The three articles above are a good read. They are serious articles, by Indian journalistic standards, but it is all the same recycled, old school and very conventional thinking. The commonality in each of the three articles is that it is mostly pontificating to BJP and Modi, as to what they have to do different to get more votes. When the articles are not pontificating, they are literally demanding, that Modi changes his ways, becomes more inclusive of Muslims, not attempt to change curriculum, reign in the extremists, and "deliver on his promises", as people will not give him more than a year.
The problem with this type of thinking is that it is intellectual laziness. People do not want to dig deeper and think harder, before writing stuff like this. And because there is some element of truth in what they say, this sort of thinking becomes the whole story, rather than just one aspect of what is going on.
While it is true, that the BJP has to change, it is not true that it has to change in that it is an intolerant party. It has to change, because it is also a party of thieves, barring very very few, such as Modi. So, first and foremost, BJP has to change by becoming an honest party, for the most part. That will go a long way.
Secondly, while it is true that BJP has to change to become honest and cease to be klepto maniacs, that is only a small solution. Even if the BJP as a party, miraculously becomes an honest party, with a wave of a hand, through some magic, you think that will solve the problem ? That will only solve the problem, if the people, the general population value honesty and vote for honesty. Honesty has to go hand in hand with effectiveness, no doubt, but "honesty", has to be assigned an extremely high value among the general population and the nation as a whole, otherwise, even a miraculously turned honest political party will be totally ineffective, as it could never get elected. So, THE PEOPLE HAVE TO CHANGE, THEIR VALUES HAVE TO CHANGE. AND NO COMMENTATOR, NO JOURNALIST, NO THINKER IN INDIA TODAY IS QUESTIONING THE PREVAILING VALUE SYSTEM OF THE INDIAN GENERAL POPULATION OF TODAY. It is almost like the general populace is beyond reproach, they are always right, it is the political parties that have to pander to them, that in a "democracy" (kleptocracy), people are supreme.
Nothing can be further than the truth. In a democracy, people have the freedom to voice their opinions and vote and choose a government. But it is the wrong notion, that in a democracy, you cannot criticize the people and their mores and value system. In fact, a healthy society always keeps introspecting about its own weaknesses, and is constantly evolving a better value system for itself, so that it can better meet the challenges of fast changing times. The political parties cannot by and large be dishonest, and this dishonest, to the point of creating a perfect kleptocracy, that India has become, without something being terribly wrong with the grassroots and the general population and their value system and their pathology. In fact, I believe very strongly, that we should stop blaming the political parties, even parties which are out and out thieves and traitorous such as Congress, Lalu, Mulayam, Mamata etc, and really start focusing on how we will transform our society from ground up, to have a better value system. We must focus on and start with the education we provide to our children in our homes, the value system we instill in them, through example, not pontification (with a do as I do, not as I say, attitude), and begin the hard work of rebuilding our society, from scratch, from ground up.
But in order to do that, we have to first diagnose the problem correctly, which is that "problem is us", not Sonia. We must first have the courage to face up to this fact. Then, after we have gone through the difficult process of coming to terms with that fact, we have to be open enough, to discuss this openly, have an honest national and societal debate on our current value system, its shortcomings, and where we need to go from here. Only then, and after a lot of introspection and meditation and self-purification, will each one of us arrive at a roadmap, of how we get to where we want to be, from where we are, and put it up for a collective consensus, starting from ground up, from the grassroots.
What I see today, is not even close to the beginning of the kind of process that I have described above. In our "democracy", including on this forum, the noise and the chorus is all about how others can improve and what others can do for us, what our leaders can do for us, what political parties can do for us. The moment it comes to what we can do to change ourselves, the general people, the door to the debate is shut, before it even begins. No one wants to talk about it. If someone persists, he is slapped down. "How dare you criticize us as a people " ? "How dare you ask us to change", "change who, us, the people, go to hell, you Western stooge, you Macaulyte, you", "we are a democracy, and how dare you criticize the people and challenge their supremacy, in a democracy", "keep your hands away from my corruption", is the order of the day.
It is a sad life, if all one does is spend it everyday on criticizing the political leaders and expecting them to miraculously change without any societal pressure to change. So, our general population will have no qualms about electing thieves, but once we elect them, we expect them to be honest, while still allowing us our little thievery, whether we be a patwari, or a doctor or a government engineer or a private contractor. We should be allowed our little space to practice klepto mania, while we will not tolerate dishonesty in our politicians.
The "gloom and doom", as you put it, is really professed by those, who are intellectually lazy, do not even want to think, go with the flow, accept the status quo, and expect others to do things for them. That is gloom and doom in practice. In fact that is the hallmark of a dead person. Professing the same old hashed out recycled thoughts in aggressive, loud and jingoistic tone is not, "Not doom and gloom". It is the epitome of "gloom and doom". The ability to think, think hard, introspect, taking action to change oneself, being self-critical and the willingness to self-correct, are all signs of confidence and "being alive", not gloom and doom.
Only an optimist of the highest level, can think of and even imagine the possibility of massive grass roots change, particularly in the current context of the mores and debauchery (not sexual, but of materialism and me, me, me), that defines the Indian society of today. To even attempt to think straight, amidst all this filth, is positivity of the highest order, not gloom and doom.
Only an optimist of the highest level, can think of and even imagine the possibility of massive grass roots change, particularly in the current context of the mores and debauchery (not sexual, but of materialism and me, me, me), that defines the Indian society of today. To even attempt to think straight, amidst all this filth, is positivity of the highest order, not gloom and doom.
The Indian treasury is not empty as you said earlier. The Current Account Deficit is rising and will be highest this year. The main reason for this are oil and gold. In India, the demand for oil and gold are price inelastic. It does not matter what the world price of those 2 commodities is, it will still be in high demand in India. If we discount gold and oil from the equation, India runs a current account surplus. The main reason why we run this surplus is due to SME's- small and medium enterprises. The people working in these and running these are not whom you will read about in the Business magazines nor in Economic times. But they keep going on and run a more or less profitable venture. It is to help the workers in these industries that the JDY was launched. It is to help the people who run these SME's the Mudra Bank was launched. The effects will be noticeable in a year or so.
Coming back to the oil and gold thing- these 2 are considered commodities. And as long as gold is considered as such we will always have a problem. You say we have a huge problem of infrastructure. And we have no money to invest in that. In the west the infrastructure is funded by debt and the debt is long term. We have not got a evolved debt market and the main reason is people in India do not believe in debt. We are a saver society. The responsibility of funding has fallen on the banking sector and they are not geared for this. 70% of indian banks are nationalised. rest are private and foreign. The quality standards in nationalised banks is better than the others- though this may surprise you- you got to go through the balance sheets to believe it.
The question of funding of the many pet projects is something which has bothered this and past governments too. Did you know the main reason for the 1991 Balance of Payment crisis was the wasteful expense of the repeat congress governments which believed in slogans like garibi hatao. They sound more like threats to the vested interests. Why would the vested interests allow that to ever happen. And that is the case today too.
Our reserves have grown. But considered the size of our economy today, the reserve position of the nation is worse. But that is not the whole story.
You said Only an optimist of the highest level, can think of and even imagine the possibility of massive grass roots change.
Well I see a tremendous grass roots change happening in India. Alas the government has chosen to do something stupid to scupper it. If you have read the economy thread, I keep going on about gold. And gold is the reason why there will be grass roots change. We keep cribbing we have no funds to make things happen. We do. Its in the form of gold. And when time comes people will use it. Coercing them to get it into schemes (which have failed in the past and will fail again) is not the way to go.
Only if you can see the fractal. The infinite resolutions it gives, you will see there is no need to be gloomy. Its overwhelmingly positive. What we need is the right leadership to allow this metamorphosis to happen. Though I do feel the government needs to put on a show of doing things. People need to see the change. They will live it later. But in the era of 140 characters or less, there is a need to put on a show. The masses are fickle after all.
Only if you can see the fractal. The infinite resolutions it gives, you will see there is no need to be gloomy. Its overwhelmingly positive. What we need is the right leadership to allow this metamorphosis to happen. Though I do feel the government needs to put on a show of doing things. People need to see the change. They will live it later. But in the era of 140 characters or less, there is a need to put on a show. The masses are fickle after all.
I do not disagree with a lot of facts that you have stated. But I beg to differ on your conclusions. If you read your own post carefully, you will notice that it is more hopefully optimistic than realistically optimistic. The main thrust of your post is that India has tremendous potential. I absolutely do not disagree with that. But, your argument goes like this. Because India has a lot of potential, India will necessarily progress. I agree with the premise, but not your conclusion. Indians have always had a lot of potential, but historically, it has always managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. The Indians of today are better than every before in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Therefore, Indians are past masters at squandering potential.
We can go on and on and on, and I will be happy to discuss with you, point by point, on every issue that you have raised, in an appropriate forum, or in person. But I will only leave you with this response to one point you made. Yes, we have tremendous amount of gold. Yes, any scheme by government to monetize it will fail. But unlike you, I think that the private Indians will never fully monetize their gold. This is because of fundamental economic principles, and your post indicates that you are either an economist or understand economic principles quite well, therefore, you will appreciate, even if you disagree with what I have to say next. Monetizing gold or utilizing gold or finding a way to invest privately held gold, requires for private individuals who own that gold, to have faith in the future, in the economy of the country, in the monetary and fiscal soundness of the country, in political stability and most importantly, have a belief that long term planning will pay off. No rational person will have that faith and that belief in the future, in India. That is why individuals behave the way they do in India. They act short term, because they know that they will be rewarded for a short term grab, and penalized for long term strategic thinking. There simply are no institutions which provide stability over the long term, in India, and continuity, which engender confidence among rational people in India. Only the very rich business houses, can and do afford to plan long term, because they feel that they have the "heft" and the financial clout to control their own destiny over the long haul and can influence events to their advantage. The game is hopelessly rigged against the small and medium sized enterprise, that you mentioned above.
rsangram wrote:The three articles above are a good read. ...
A very long reply, I'll be brief.
a. I don't know about the other two authors, but Balu (S.N. Balagangadhara) is very much on the ground in Karnataka, India, raising a new generation of researchers/intellectuals.
b. Countries, like the U.S. of A improved, not because its people were exceptionally honest or any such, but because they came up with a workable system. India's system is largely workable. It certainly can stand a lot of improvement.
(Or, do you think that after the Prophet died, Islam ran over the world from Spain to China because Muslims had an exceptionally high caliber of honesty, etc.? No, they had a workable system which could harness the energy of ordinary people in a common direction, and for the period of time that it worked, it was unstoppable. What happened of course, is that it was not a "smart" system where smart is defined below - it could not change with the times.)
c. Criticism within India of India is largely tolerated. What is not acceptable is to try to "reform" India from the pages of the Guardian or the New York Times.
d. If you are a normal human being, you are not the problem.
e. Be smart, I'm adding this because I came across this nice description of "smart" today
“Smart” is a multifaceted cognitive feature composed of excellent analytical skills, possession of an extensive knowledge base that is easily and frequently augmented, possession of a good memory, and being readily curious about the world and willing, even eager, to reject previously accepted notions in the face of new data. Being smart includes having the ability to analyze new data for validity and, thinking creatively, draw new insights from existing common knowledge.
f. This forum is not India, not representative of India. But to the extent criticism is rejected here, remember, rejection of criticism is a normal human reaction, the critic has to persist - it is his duty almost, should he want to be a critic.
g. Janata Janardhan is like your boss - you criticize his/her decisions until it is made. After that, you respect the decision and work with it the best you can. Same with election verdicts.
h. Most have a life outside BRF, and presumably are doing something useful and something good out there, not just criticizing leaders here. BRF is a place to hang out, blow off steam, and also to get smart (as in adding to an extensive knowledge base).
i. I'm sure Modi can think, think hard, introspect, self-correct, etc. He would not have lasted as Gujarat's CM with such success as he did, unless he was able to. The real message of all these criticisms is to his "supporters" who do not align with his vision and what he needs to do.
rsangram wrote:
I do not disagree with a lot of facts that you have stated. But I beg to differ on your conclusions. ....
Because India has a lot of potential, India will necessarily progress. I agree with the premise, but not your conclusion. Indians have always had a lot of potential, but historically, it has always managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...
Only the very rich business houses, can and do afford to plan long term, because...
The game is hopelessly rigged against the small and medium sized enterprise, that you mentioned above.
Let me add a few points please. I am one who was so happy when BJP/Modi took power in 2014, that I kept the news paper believing 'this is a historic moment for India'. But I am not that certain today. But I think some of your points need better introspection. I will try to be brief.
1- Any civilization you take, it was always started by the 'working class'. They till the land, make produce, barter, sell etc. Then comes the more enterprising ones helping the farmers sell the goods. They create more traders, then with more money comes architects, bankers, protection force (army) etc. Eventually the money power rules and you get class system. This is a very brief explanation.
2- India is no different. You will have rich ruling the poor 'working class'. The greedy ones eventually reaching the top. This is where the moral standards come into play. This is the importance of Dharma, reverence toward all life and right conduct toward all life.
3- In today's world, this Dharmic life is pushed out of the classroom, business, politics etc. It is replaced by MBA style accounting, efficiency, waste reduction, lean principles etc.
4- your point about India being bankrupt, please understand that the modern principle of economy run by fiat money itself is bankrupt. No nation is truly rich. US has one of the highest debt today can never be paid off or serviced. But most nations look up to such western style principles. We have a saying in Kerala, roughly translated "when the society run, you run right in the middle". India cannot stand separate, bankrupt dollar has to be THE currency. Those who went against dollar has bitten the dust.
Only the very rich business houses, can and do afford to plan long term, because...
5- I work for a multinational with about $ 100 billion in cash. Let me tell you that even we find it difficult to do long term planning in today's world. Govt are disappearing faster than ever, wars and social instability is more today than 10 yrs ago, currency variations are rapid and more 'random'. We cannot today confidently say let us invest $5 million in that project, because I expect a 3 year payback and the market is expected to grow 30 million over next 7 yrs !! So even the rich business houses are on a level playing field. They cannot afford large investment long term plans
Monetizing gold or utilizing gold or finding a way to invest privately held gold, requires for private individuals who own that gold, to have faith in the future, in the economy of the country, in the monetary and fiscal soundness of the country, in political stability and most importantly, have a belief that long term planning will pay off. No rational person will have that faith and that belief in the future, in India....
They act short term, because they know that they will be rewarded for a short term grab, and penalized for long term strategic thinking...
6- Your point about lack of long term confidence in India, I am not sure if I can find any long term safe investment in today's ultra dynamic world. Stock, gold, land, real estate, metal commodity, govt bonds, star ups, you name it, none. During the last 2 or 3 Quantitative Easing some of the investment banks ended up with trillions of dollars. Which they can move around at will. Which ever stock markets allows Foreign investment, they will sink their teeth in and suck the blood out, then they disappear. Only to come back for more pump and dump. This is how world is today, not just India.
Why, in human organizations and societies, do bad people advance?
Politics, done right, is all about building structures that are resilient against incompetent and malicious people, no matter how popular or charismatic they might be. Most of the great work done in politics by European and American intellectuals in the 17th and 18th centuries was based on this insight: focus on structure, not on personalities. This seems obvious now, but it’s something that most societies in human history– run by charismatic actors, then their progeny– missed, which is that structure is more durable than faith in some quasi-divine human or caste. A good king might turn bad, trust the wrong people, or hand the throne to an undeserving son. The only way to build a sustainable government is to design it with bad actors in mind because they will come, and some of them will be remarkably attractive and popular people.
and
Any robust system needs to make the formation of virtue itself a clear goal. Since its individual virtue that ultimately holds together the various flawed systems man comes up with, even the better ones.
“We make men without chests and expect from them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man
There simply are no institutions which provide stability over the long term, in India, and continuity, which engender confidence among rational people in India.
Of course there is. You chose to not see it. Its the family structure which is still stable - or relatively stable. The SME's have been under pressure for a long time. But that is how it has worked. A book called Hindu Yajmani System by William Wiser is very illuminating. SME's are usually family owned businesses. There are too many assumptions today which are essentially dogmatic. Its not essential we accept them. Rajiv Malhotra is doing his bit to educate us to learn about our systems on our terms. Vaidyanathan and Gurumurthy are doing their bit for the economic perspective. I would recommend Vaidyanathan's book called India UnInc.
It the people who have nothing that Modi government is empowering. And as Bob Dylan once said - When you have nothing, you've got nothing to loose.
If you read your own post carefully, you will notice that it is more hopefully optimistic than realistically optimistic.
I do not claim to be an authority on anything. But one thing I am quite convinced about is the current paradigm is changing as we speak. Nasim Taleb says - We love the tangible, the confirmation, the palpable, the real, the visible, the concrete, the known, the seen, the salient, the stereotypical, the moving, the theatrical, the romanced, the cosmetic, the official, the scholarly sounding verbiage, the pompous Gaussian economist, the mathematicized crap, the pomp, the Harvard Business School, the Economics Nobel, the dark business suits with white shirts, the moving discourse and the lurid. Most of all we favour the narrated....
AND that is the problem. We favour one perspective over the other because it does not fit into our paradigm of what is considered acceptable. You could consider it to be hopefully optimistic. I consider it to be realistically optimistic.
We owe it to Modi. He is the commander in chief. Not everything he will do will be good or good enough from our perspective. But he is at least doing it and we are lucky he is there.
Therefore, my young friend, the BRF trainee, forget about hope, I believe, we as Indians dont even have a prayer.
If you think different, by all means, state your opinion, but make it thoughtful and give reasons for your opinion. And I keep weeping for India and keep weeping for Indians and keep weeping for myself.
The 'BRF Trainee' condescension is understandable, for you may not know that I've been here all along, at least as long as BRF has been around.... but that's immaterial.
And thank you for calling me young, although I am in all probability quite a bit older than you, but again, that's not important.
If you have already decided that there is no hope for us or for India then we all might just as well pack up and go home, shut down this forum and continue to shed tears in self-pity. There is no argument from me that will convince you otherwise so I will not even try.
rsangramJi, can you kindly summarize in 2-3 sentences on what your prescription for India and ModiJi to be? Give that you sound so pessimistic, even more than me , should India just cease to exist?
I think fact is dawning on rsangramJi just like lot of us that Modiji is going to play this game as per his skill and understanding of the wicket and there would not be any grand ,made for headline stuff happening not even prosecuting of anti-national media or corrupt NBJP cabal.
and yes, MAD is no magical answer to everything that lot of posters here keep commenting.
I although don't agree with rsangramJi that Modi ji went inside the treasury and found it empty, then he went to check defense preparedness and it was nil and NM can't utter a word about it.
perception is reality, but do understand that it is temporary and can change and does change.
perception on modi in 2003 was that he was indeed culpable in the riots. i myself was divided at that time, thinking of him as not doing enough.
i will say it again..
we are looking at 10 yrs modi and 15 yrs bjp.
let me also mark this post so i can gravedig it in 2019 and 2024.
congress vote transfer model worked in delhi, but it only works in states where they have votes to begin with.
MGB only works in some states where BJP is weak, vote blocs are rigid and the other big parties can come together.
who is this modi killer? rahul ? kejri? nitish? the last two won't get out of this term with any sort of electability. the first one is the joke option in any poll.
Gus wrote:
congress vote transfer model worked in delhi, but it only works in states where they have votes to begin with.
MGB only works in some states where BJP is weak, vote blocs are rigid and the other big parties can come together.
who is this modi killer? rahul ? kejri? nitish? the last two won't get out of this term with any sort of electability. the first one is the joke option in any poll.
Somehow I think the same way delhi turned out to be a blessing in guise for BJP, Bihar may end up being the same. NiKus 2019 ambitions stuck with fighting with Lalu..
Yes MGB type alliance will emerge in 2019... but with misgovernance in both delhi and bihar.. they may end up losing seats there.. lets see.. even if 3-4 egos can get along.. Kangress may end up supporting some MGB type alliance just to stop BJP.. their only value lies in the ownership of C-system via power, pelft and crooked connections.. even that may disappear if Modi gets some sense and starts cracking the whip..
CRamS wrote:rsangramJi, can you kindly summarize in 2-3 sentences on what your prescription for India and ModiJi to be? Give that you sound so pessimistic, even more than me , should India just cease to exist?
In my view, India has already ceased to exist. The question I think you want to ask is can we resuscitate India and if so, how ? I am afraid, I cannot answer the first question, partly because I would be making an educated guess (based on and to the extent of my own education), and secondly, because, it is really not important. Here is why that question is not important. Let us say, if I were to tell you, that I am a "know it all" and I am a 100% certain, that India is beyond hope and cannot be resuscitated. What would you do ?
1) Would you then just give up all hope, fold and go "home" ? Or
2) would you just abuse me, for my prediction, using choicest words, and then go about your daily business, making yourself believe that "superhero", avatar of Vishnu, Modi will bring India back and you really dont have to lift a finger ? Or
3) would you, then, sit down, think, seriously come to terms with dismal reality, but then still, attempt to arrive at a plan, a strategy to take India from where it is right now "AS IS" and to where you want it to be ("TO BE"), regardless of how hopeless you may think the situation is or how hopeless I would think the situation is.
I can tell you with certainty, that number one option above is not what you will go with. Now you have two options left and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So, here is my prescription.
A) Quickly do number 2 and get it out of your system at the very earliest.
Then
B.) Go to option 3 and do the best with it, but give it an honest effort and an honest shot, and only you will be the judge, whether you have given it an honest shot or not. Because, we as Indians really have no choice. No matter how hopeless the situation is, no matter how deep the hole is, no matter how dismal it all looks, do we, really have a choice to roll over and die ? No, we do the very best that each one of us can do, start movements, act righteous with ourselves, our neighbors, our countrymen, be fair, be giving, be generous, stay strong, follow the ten commandments, when it comes to our countrymen, do anything, but DO NOT KEEP LOOKING TO MODI. LET THE POOR GUY BE. Let us all do something, for a change.
There, there is my prescription. I am sorry, if it is not a holy grail, a waiving of the magic wand, an invention of a new "messaiah" or a quick fix. And it is not a reliance on someone else, that, that "someone else", will magically bring us back. We have to first diagnose the problem correctly. The problem is "us", not our leadership, so let us start with fixing ourselves. But in order to fix ourselves, we have to first recognize that the problem is "us". That is a very bitter pill to swallow. And the messenger or messengers who will give that message, a few of them will be killed, before the message sinks in, like how the "democratic" Athenians killed Socrates. Then maybe something will happen. Even if it doesnt, that is the honorable way to die, by trying till the very end. So, either way you win, just by trying. Like Gita said, keep trying, and dont worry about the results, but do keep trying, like a karmayogi, not as a "do nothing" yogi.
So, my prescription is to try and do option number 3 above. But then again........its just easier to do number 2 and savor your next meal!
rsangram wrote:
.............
B.) Go to option 3 and do the best with it, but give it an honest effort and an honest shot, and only you will be the judge, whether you have given it an honest shot or not. Because, we as Indians really have no choice. No matter how hopeless the situation is, no matter how deep the hole is, no matter how dismal it all looks, do we, really have a choice to roll over and die ? No, we do the very best that each one of us can do, start movements, act righteous with ourselves, our neighbors, our countrymen, be fair, be giving, be generous, stay strong, follow the ten commandments, when it comes to our countrymen, do anything, but DO NOT KEEP LOOKING TO MODI. LET THE POOR GUY BE. Let us all do something, for a change.
Sorry to be persistent, but may I ask how you know that we are NOT doing exactly that? Do you for example have any idea of who I am, what I do or do not do? Is it not possible that all of this is being done, has been done, and the task is almost Sisyphean and yet we carry on?
In any society, leadership counts and is often a lodestone to which like minded people are attracted. IMHO, there has, so far not been another PM like Modi, except perhaps for LBS who unfortunately died (or was killed) before he could really do a lot more. He has the potential to bring about a paradigm shift in the thought process of the average Indian, if he is really allowed to be - something that you so passionately espouse. The problem is just that, he is not allowed to be - which is where I think BRF can be of great value.
rsangram wrote:
.............
B.) Go to option 3 and do the best with it, but give it an honest effort and an honest shot, and only you will be the judge, whether you have given it an honest shot or not. Because, we as Indians really have no choice. No matter how hopeless the situation is, no matter how deep the hole is, no matter how dismal it all looks, do we, really have a choice to roll over and die ? No, we do the very best that each one of us can do, start movements, act righteous with ourselves, our neighbors, our countrymen, be fair, be giving, be generous, stay strong, follow the ten commandments, when it comes to our countrymen, do anything, but DO NOT KEEP LOOKING TO MODI. LET THE POOR GUY BE. Let us all do something, for a change.
Sorry to be persistent, but may I ask how you know that we are NOT doing exactly that? Do you for example have any idea of who I am, what I do or do not do? Is it not possible that all of this is being done, has been done, and the task is almost Sisyphean and yet we carry on?
In any society, leadership counts and is often a lodestone to which like minded people are attracted. IMHO, there has, so far not been another PM like Modi, except perhaps for LBS who unfortunately died (or was killed) before he could really do a lot more. He has the potential to bring about a paradigm shift in the thought process of the average Indian, if he is really allowed to be - something that you so passionately espouse. The problem is just that, he is not allowed to be - which is where I think BRF can be of great value.
Primus wrote:
Sorry to be persistent, but may I ask how you know we are not doing exactly that ?
In any society, leadership counts and is often a lodestone to which like minded people are attracted. IMHO, there has, so far not been another PM like Modi, except perhaps for LBS who unfortunately died (or was killed) before he could really do a lot more. He has the potential to bring about a paradigm shift in the thought process of the average Indian, if he is really allowed to be - something that you so passionately espouse. The problem is just that, he is not allowed to be - which is where I think BRF can be of great value.
Bring about paradigm shift in the thought process of the average Indian ? What exactly is the current thought process of an average Indian which you object to ? Could it be, their narrow and casteist thinking ? Or could it be their extreme "dont care a damn, about anyone else than me", attitude, or worse, could it be their "dont care a damn, even about me, beyond the immediate 5 minutes", attitude, or yet worse, could it be their, "screw merit, screw the country, I just want whatever I can grab", attitude ? Or even worse, could it be their "sacrifice ? What sacrifice ? Sacrifice is not an Indian word, just like for Bonaparte, impossible was not a French word", attitude ? or finally, could it be their "courage ? you mean, kora kagaz ? never heard of it" attitude ?
You expect one leader and Modi at that to bring about a paradigm shift in these deeply rooted and even more deeply imbedded thought processes and attitudes, in fact, character defining attributes ? I hate to say it, but I cannot tell you how many times I run into otherwise highly intelligent Indians indulging in and succumbing to wishful thinking and flights of fancy of this kind.
And until we first get grounded in reality, there will be no solution. All your effort, will go down the drain, if not directed towards the right solution.
The right solution, is not to start with changing "an average Indian's" thought processes as a pre-requisite to any further change. The solution just might be "usurpation" of power by a few right thinking individuals and then go about changing thought processes from top, with a combination of right intentions, right policies, right education and most importantly, RIGHT ENFORCEMENT.
rsangram wrote:
................The solution just might be "usurpation" of power by a few right thinking individuals and then go about changing thought processes from top, with a combination of right intentions, right policies, right education and most importantly, RIGHT ENFORCEMENT.
rsangram wrote:
................The solution just might be "usurpation" of power by a few right thinking individuals and then go about changing thought processes from top, with a combination of right intentions, right policies, right education and most importantly, RIGHT ENFORCEMENT.
And there you have it ........Modi in a nutshell
If you insist in being in denial and not follow what I am say, that is fine.
But, Modi did not "usurp" power, nor is he "ENFORCING" anything, because in the current system, with all the good intentions, he CANNOT, and WILL NEVER NE ABLE TO.
NAGPUR: Shatrughan Sinha, the sulking silver screen idol and BJP leader, apparently received a cold shoulder from the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh as well as the local BJP brass on Saturday. The Bihari Babu, who raised a minor revolt of his own in the party even before veterans like LK Advani, Shanta Kumar and Yashwant Sinha did, has been denied any hearing by the RSS.
After landing late in the city on Friday, Sinha fervently tried for an appointment with RSS top leaders. But he was told that the Sarsanghachalak Mohan Bhagwat as well as Sarkaryavah (general Secretary) Bhaiyyaji Joshi were not in town. Sources said no other leader was interested in meeting him.
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He tried through mediators to fix an appointment but was politely told that Bhagwat was travelling and would not be in city except for a day on November 22. Bhaiyyaji Joshi is touring and was in Delhi on Saturday. Sinha is desperately trying to find some sympathy from the RSS by narrating his version of happenings in Bihar elections.
Sinha is holding the grouse that he was kept out of the poll campaign in Bihar by party president Amit Shah. He has even tried to give an impression that had he handled the Bihar campaign, things would not gone sour for the party.
However, BJP sources insist that Sinha had was kept at bay as his ambitions of being projected as chief ministerial candidate came in the way.
Sinha is scheduled to make an appearance as a special guest at a function in the city on Sunday for the felicitation of veteran Hindi journalist SN Vinod on his 75th birthday. But he sprang a surprise by reaching here in advance in the hope of meeting the RSS leaders.
Interestingly, even city MP and Union transport minister Nitin Gadkari avoided meeting Sinha before he left for Delhi on Saturday morning. Gadkari is leaving for Brazil and will return only at the end of the month.
Gadkari's refusal to meet Shatru has now given rise to speculation that the BJP may finally throw the actor out of the party. For a long time, the party has put up with his tantrums, but BJP insiders believe that for the last several years he has been more of nuisance than any help.
Sinha spent entire Saturday closeted with his biographer in a tony city hotel.
The way you have depicted the collision of string theory and metaphysics in the context of such disparate faculties as ethics and politics is amazing. It is almost like you are intersecting the meeting of matter with anti-matter in space, a kind of a black hole, akin to the "chupeapar theory", of quarks interacting with quazars. You know, the positively and negatively charged quarks. And of course, some people try to explain all of this using the now much discredited chaos theory.
But I digress. Perhaps, we should take this to another more appropriate thread and lay this out threadbare.
If you insist in being in denial and not follow what I am say, that is fine.
But, Modi did not "usurp" power, nor is he "ENFORCING" anything, because in the current system, with all the good intentions, he CANNOT, and WILL NEVER NE ABLE TO.
Well, some might argue that he did not deserve to be the PM hence perhaps is a usurper of sorts. However, he is the most inspiring leader India has had since LBS. I don't know if you were around then, but his speeches still echo in my brain even though I was very young.
An honest and truly visionary leader can make a huge difference in the fortunes of a nation, just as the opposite can sink it. History is replete with examples of both kind.
