Asian Aerospace 2006 - Singapore

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 13 Feb 2006 16:09

I am Just posting this temproray topic regarding the exhibition (Admins please move the if required, otherwise will delete later)

More information about the above can be found at the below website.

http://www.asianaerospace.com

Ticket details from below:

http://www.sistic.com.sg

I will be going to the Changi exhibition center on the 25th of Feb. If anyone is interested can contact me at (nine-four-three-one-five-six-six-seven) to tie up for the details. Would be nice to have any BR members along.
Note: Just a simple glance i found that Brahmos will be setting up a stall in Hall A so that would be must see for me.

Regards
Abhi

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2006 16:22

Pls ask them whether Pres Kalams statement about brahmos on subs means the Amur deal is being actively pursued for L&T manufacture and what size of Amur (there is a range).

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 14 Feb 2006 06:31

Singha will surely ask, will get some pictures too. By the way Kunal is also coming to the Exhibition. Hopefully there are other members who would like to join.

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 26 Feb 2006 16:48

Just visited Asian Aerospace 2006

Indian Exihibition included the Tejas/Brahmos/TATA advanced material/Mig-27 upgrade stand and some models of Lakshya and Nishant. There were some other companies that were related to aersospace equipment manufacturing.

Was a whole day event. Had opportunity to talk to one of the pilots for Tejas as well as the people at the Brahmos stall.

DRDO

Airforce seems to be quite interested in the aircraft and they expect IOC only by 2009. Another 700-100 sorties towards IOC. Few other things worth mentioning

1. No MMR has been fitted to the Tejas till as of date, its still under testing and they are hoping it can be fitted to the PV1 at a later date. As per performance of the MMR it is just a first attempt at an all indian radar thus its not as good but hopefully further upgrades can bring it at par with the requirements. They are also looking at off the shelf AESA radar for the Tejas which i beleive might be the ELTA 2052?

2. The RWR also hasn't been fitted to the PV2, its only a dummy and the actual integration will be done progressively?

3. Kaveri will not delay the program and the first batch of the LCA will be powered with the GE engine IN20. They didnt' have much info on the Kaveri as such.

4. First tranche of LCA after weapons integration will not have BVR but till the FOC RVV-AE will be integrated to the LCA. This is the case if the MMR is chosen.

5. They are working with 486 chipset as well as AMD 502 and shark processors for the mission/radar computer of the LCA. Tiger shark is apparently being used for the EW suite. ( I can't make out anything of this as i am a mech. eng.)

Brahmos

The guy at the stall was quite friendly and was willing to talk a lot about the missile itself. Seemingly the army is quite interested in the missile now that they have managed to integrate a INS+GPS as well as a Digital scene matching seeker on to the land attack version and have achieved a COP of almost 0.
As per the news artile the President had talked about submarine launched Brahmos. Therefore, the Brahmos representative the said that it will be be a part of the package of the next line of submarines to be finalized by the govt for the Navy. Though he hinted towards the Amur which is next in line for the Naval requirement.

TATA Advanced Material
They have provided Indian armed forces with over 1 lakh pcs of BPV and are in the final stages to be approved for the supply of Kevlar helmets to the Indian army. Indian paramilitary forces as per the guy at the stall has already ordered quite a number of the helmets

Israel-Rafale

Rafale was showcasing the Spyder system on the TATRA with a right hand drive. As per the representative they are still awaiting for the Indian Govt to make the decision on the missile itself.
Regarding the Barak NG the official was quite tight lipped about the capability. Well managed to ask him that how they planning to engage P3 with standoff capability of more than 100km with the Harpoons if the missile range is only 80km. His reply was that 80Km is the range of the basic missile and with a booster or a second stage of the rocket they can achieve any range possible (on the lines of Aster). The missile has been in the works for quite some time and the development is supposed to be completed sometime this year. Though he doesn't know when the whole system integration will be finished.

I will post the pictures at a later time. I also managed to get a power point presentation which has quite a few pictures on the Mission and Radar computer used onthe mig-27, Jaguar and Sukhoi-30. If anyone wants it i can email it to them (Its a 11mb file) or if someone is kind enough to upload it for me it would be great.

Regards
Abhi

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 26 Feb 2006 19:49

double post

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 26 Feb 2006 19:51

are in the final stages to be approved for the supply of Kevlar helmets to the Indian army

Boss, You made my day wonderfull!

pauldevis · Post by **pauldevis** » 26 Feb 2006 20:14

Abhisham wrote:I also managed to get a power point presentation which has quite a few pictures on the Mission and Radar computer used onthe mig-27, Jaguar and Sukhoi-30. If anyone wants it i can email it to them (Its a 11mb file) or if someone is kind enough to upload it for me it would be great.

Regards
Abhi

Hi Abhi, you could use the free upload site at http://rapidshare.de/.
Did you ask them about the Amur deal ?

TIA.

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 26 Feb 2006 20:57

[img=http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7794/aaerospace2006024small8el.th.jpg]
Brahmos on Amur class submarine.

[img=http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6016/aaerospace2006039small6ud.th.jpg]
ELTA 2052 Radar

[img=http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3954/aaerospace2006042small3jp.th.jpg]
ELTA 2052 Radar - Side View

[img=http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/9594/aaerospace2006065small7ej.th.jpg]
Insert Used in the BPV - Tata Advanced Material

[img=http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8096/aaerospace2006067small6kj.th.jpg]
Kevlar Helmets - Tata Advanced Material

[img=http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2960/aaerospace2006part2010small3sh.th.jpg]
Model - Tejas

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 26 Feb 2006 21:00

Paul,
The Brahmos guy didn't really know much about the Amur deal but they have been displaying the underwater launched system on the Amur for quite some time now and his choice of words indicated that Amur is the likely the next submarine for the Navy.

Regards
Abhi

George J · Post by **George J** » 26 Feb 2006 22:06

Abhisham:
Kevlar helmet is really good news indeed.

WHO did you ask about the MMR and Tarang. We need a name for the source. Did they specifically mention "off the shelf" AESA or "off the shelf" radars (big diff...the former is new tech with an old back end, the latter is in service currently with the IAF)

Also did the Israeli's specifically mention the next gen Barak as the Barak NG? I dont recall anyone call thing on BRF

here its called barak 2/8/LR. But the booster bit and dev. timeline is very good news indeed that will finally add some much needed facts to the discussion.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Feb 2006 23:51

Abhisham wrote:Just visited Asian Aerospace 2006
Brahmos

The guy at the stall was quite friendly and was willing to talk a lot about the missile itself. Seemingly the army is quite interested in the missile now that they have managed to integrate a INS+GPS as well as a Digital scene matching seeker on to the land attack version and have achieved a COP of almost 0.

Abhi: Cool.
Quick question, did the Brhamos guy explicenty said "Digital scene matching seeker is integrated" or was it your deduction?

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 27 Feb 2006 05:34

George J
The person I talked to was an airforce pilot, i don't think it would be appropriate to give his name on the forum. He said they are planning on the MMR but if they are going to choose an off the shelf radar it will clearly be an AESA. This was all when he was explaning how the LCA has undergone changes to keep up with the present requirements for example the earlier requirement didn't call for a full glass cockpit but they had to introduce that along the way to cater for present senarios similarly for the radar they will not delay the program for the MMR and if a decision is taken to go for an off the shelf radar then they will go for an AESA. Another things worth mentioning, the envelop given to them in LCA as of now it is a very beautiful airplane to fly better than any other in the IAF. The same person told me regarding the MMR as well as the RWR. They didn't go into much details regarding the EW which is quite secretive but said much work has gone in that field as well
I have posted the pic of the Kevlar helmet. Though the paramilitary has already ordered the helmet IA is still mulling on the GSRQ but he says that too is in the final stages, though he didn't specify the exact quantity but said its a substantial order.

Arun,
I didn't deduce the digital scene matching bit, he clearly mentioned it uses a INS+GPS for feeding in the coordinates of the target and image of the target can be fed into the DSM which it compares before impact thus giving a COP of almost 0 and army is very interested in the missile and they require a number of missiles fast. The order he says includes a command post which controls up to 3-4 firing units + loader vehicles, though he didn't mention the quantity ordered.

Regards
Abhisham

Sudhir · Post by **Sudhir** » 27 Feb 2006 05:43

Did they reveal or hint that the current Bhramos has longer legs than 290Km?

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 27 Feb 2006 07:47

Abhisham: Thanks dude.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Feb 2006 08:52

Abhisham wrote: [img=http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6016/aaerospace2006039small6ud.th.jpg]
ELTA 2052 Radar

I am confused. The Janes article posted by Vick in Radar thread talks about a 24 unit modular system, and I don't see it here.

And I assume the channels seen are the cooling system.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Feb 2006 08:52

How does the DSMC works for Brahmos , Does it compares the images in memory to that created by its onboard radar , Can it hit a specific target among a group of them in close vicinity.

Or is it mere a radio hitting radio contrast target from its background

Thanks

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Feb 2006 09:05

The Army is looking at BUK-M2 as a backup solution just incase the Akash dosent make it.

The both look designed for the same role the major difference being while one uses Ramjet propulsion the other has a solid propulsion

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 27 Feb 2006 10:06

Austin wrote:How does the DSMC works for Brahmos , Does it compares the images in memory to that created by its onboard radar , Can it hit a specific target among a group of them in close vicinity.

Or is it mere a radio hitting radio contrast target from its background

Thanks

DSMC is optical matching technique. So expect a visible band and IR band optical seeker on Brahmos. Few seconds before impact the optical corelation be made to fine tune the impact point and desired impact attitude. Aka entering the window or air vent at correct angle. I expect this optical camara to be located on the belly on a contraption that pops out when on terminal run. Yes INS and GPS will get it to within few meters and DSMC will take care any error in initial targeting co-ordinates (i.e. targeting offset optical with this scheam does not require accurate surveyed launch site or target.). hence like go to Rawalpindi street xyz and look for this relative landmark and destroy it the target that is at a know relative offset from landmark. And also when target is few seconds away acquire the target feature to home in.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Feb 2006 10:25

**** Double Posting Deleted *******

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Feb 2006 10:32

The Russians have already aadvertised about a IIR seeker or a Dual IIR/Radar seeker for Yakohant ( it was in key pubs ) so one can expect similar sensors for Brahmos .

The Tomahawk also has the DSMC which helps it to home on to the 4th window of the 3rd floor etc , But then Tomahawk is also a slow missile (M 0.7 ~ 0.8 ) which gives it some time for the Tomahawk to compare the image stored in memory to that from its optical camera.

Compare that with Brahmos which is a M 2.8 missile , Will the optical camera thing work at such high speeds also can one have a very fine control over such speeds where hitting the 3rd window of the 2 Floor of AQ Khan Nuclear Free Trade Zone is possible

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 27 Feb 2006 12:52

Austin wrote:The Russians have already aadvertised about a IIR seeker or a Dual IIR/Radar seeker for Yakohant ( it was in key pubs ) so one can expect similar sensors for Brahmos .

Do you recall what year was it advertized?

The Tomahawk also has the DSMC which helps it to home on to the 4th window of the 3rd floor etc , But then Tomahawk is also a slow missile (M 0.7 ~ 0.8 ) which gives it some time for the Tomahawk to compare the image stored in memory to that from its optical camera.

Compare that with Brahmos which is a M 2.8 missile , Will the optical camera thing work at such high speeds also can one have a very fine control over such speeds where hitting the 3rd window of the 2 Floor of AQ Khan Nuclear Free Trade Zone is possible

Got to also remember that Tomahawk is a very old vintage technology. DSMC was invented for this missile, since GPS/NAVSTART was still 10 years away.

With inital pre-positioning assured with INS/GLONASS Brahmos or other missiles require very little correction (from DSMC) to get to 3rd window on 2nd floor. Thus IMHO supersonic speed is not a show stopper. As I said, even if target is not survayed, and India has targeting info from just aerospace based sensor, Brahmos can still achive pin point accuracy, by using DSMC to eliminate offset error from estimated GPS location and actual target image from Aerospace sensor, by using relative aiming of few prominent landmark nearby.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 27 Feb 2006 13:29

Interesting. I remember that in the previous DEFEXPO, the ADA dude very specifically denied any RWR on PV-1. But a few months later, when I saw and sat in a partially disassembled PV-1, it had the antennae, the LRUs and the display unit in the cockpit. Eventually, PS Subramanium did accept that there was Tarang. Now this.

If there is no MMR on PV-2, this late, its not good news at all.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 27 Feb 2006 13:56

The MMR bit which xyz pilot told Abhisham is virtually word for word (bar the AESA factor) what we were told at a function where the BR junta asked repeatedly. IMHO, if anything, use the MMR to get the hardware right- ie design and debug the backend processors etc, and develop the basic algorithms for various radar modes. And then go for a higher power AESA in the long run to supplant any imported set (the AWACS program should help as well). I know the MMR is a light weight circa 100km ranged radar, but they can boost up beyond the 6.5kw, 10% duty cycle to get higher average power (and consequently range) or change it to an AESA with as many tiles/ bricks as are cost effective plus enough to get extra power out of the set..
Not to crib, but it would have been better for the overall program if either the LRDE or the CABS folks or BEL had picked up the MMR, its more of their functional area of expertise than HAL's SED.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Feb 2006 14:03

Do you recall what year was it advertized?

No I dont remember the exact year but not greater than 2 year , Some one had put up the Brochure of the Yakohant which mentioned the IIR seeker for the same , Let me see if I can find the thread at keypubs

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 27 Feb 2006 17:28

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 27 Feb 2006 20:18

sometimes i wonder how can a land attack cruise missile version of Brahmos travel at low altitude [like Storm Shadow/Tomahawk] sustaining speed in excess of 2.5 Mach ? any guru who can throw more light on this.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Feb 2006 20:44

DSMC of tommy is used during the flight for course correction. In fact, there were reports of tommy getting confused over the desert of eye-rack.

Brahmos travels a kilometre per second. A CMOS sensor can transfer an image in less than 10 mS, and a computer can derive correction data within a few more mS. Aero actuators work within tens of milliseconds. So, you can run one cycle in say < 50mS. That is 50 metres away from AQK's ass. Amazing I would say.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Feb 2006 21:08

Harry wrote:Interesting. I remember that in the previous DEFEXPO, the ADA dude very specifically denied any RWR on PV-1. But a few months later, when I saw and sat in a partially disassembled PV-1, it had the antennae, the LRUs and the display unit in the cockpit. Eventually, PS Subramanium did accept that there was Tarang. Now this.

If there is no MMR on PV-2, this late, its not good news at all.

So, what did they integrate on the PV-2 ? Just the new mission computer and the ability to carry R-73s? Not very good.. If you dont integrate the primar sensor, you have done no integration..And contrary to expectation, we dont see news of PV2 sorties on a daily basis or any news that stores & drop tanks and dummy munitions have been carried..

All , this stuff about AESA/MMR/Off the shelf radar is not good news at all. If PV2 is the production version with everyt thing integrated, this radar selection decision must have been made atleast a year earlier.. If they are going to make the decision on the LCA radar now, expect alteast 1 year before the thing flies with an integrated radar.. Not good news at all.
After the R-60/R-73 requirements fiasco, one would have thought that the Air Force atleaset would have been able to knock some heads to put together a weapons and sensor fit for the LCA..

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 28 Feb 2006 05:18

MMR will be integrated on to LCA if it keeps upto the schedule at a later stage as of now they are hard wiring the aircraft to carry weapons as well as structural modifications.
As per the person at the stall Tejas will get drop tanks which should increase the sorty time considerably more than 30-40 mins earlier. Don't know how correct the R-77 will be part of the Tejas only during FOC if the MMR is chosen. If off the shelf radar is integrated then the process can be speeded up a bit. As per the RCS of the Tejas the person did mention that they tried to coat the aircraft with RAM but had little improvement by doing so.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 28 Feb 2006 05:18

vina wrote:
Harry wrote:Interesting. I remember that in the previous DEFEXPO, the ADA dude very specifically denied any RWR on PV-1. But a few months later, when I saw and sat in a partially disassembled PV-1, it had the antennae, the LRUs and the display unit in the cockpit. Eventually, PS Subramanium did accept that there was Tarang. Now this.

If there is no MMR on PV-2, this late, its not good news at all.
So, what did they integrate on the PV-2 ? Just the new mission computer and the ability to carry R-73s? Not very good.. If you dont integrate the primar sensor, you have done no integration..And contrary to expectation, we dont see news of PV2 sorties on a daily basis or any news that stores & drop tanks and dummy munitions have been carried..

All , this stuff about AESA/MMR/Off the shelf radar is not good news at all. If PV2 is the production version with everyt thing integrated, this radar selection decision must have been made atleast a year earlier.. If they are going to make the decision on the LCA radar now, expect alteast 1 year before the thing flies with an integrated radar.. Not good news at all.
After the R-60/R-73 requirements fiasco, one would have thought that the Air Force atleaset would have been able to knock some heads to put together a weapons and sensor fit for the LCA..

PV-2 was supposed to have a complete, integrated fire control system besides all the avionic LRUs. It would be mostly pointless to fly PV-2 without the MMR which is the core of the fire control system.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 28 Feb 2006 06:03

Abhisham wrote: As per the person at the stall Tejas will get drop tanks which should increase the sorty time considerably more than 30-40 mins earlier.

I remember reading an article which said that LCA's sorties now last an hour or more.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 28 Feb 2006 10:37

I can recall one instance when TD-2 was in the air for well over an hour. IIRC, Siva also mentioned the endurance.

Abhisham · Post by **Abhisham** » 28 Feb 2006 13:41

Most of the sorties are usually 30-40 mins, the endurance might have increased by increasing the fuel capacity of the aircraft itself but with addition of the drop tanks they can further increase the sorty time. I am not too sure but that's what was quoted to me.

Salman · Post by **Salman** » 28 Feb 2006 14:16

Sumeet wrote:sometimes i wonder how can a land attack cruise missile version of Brahmos travel at low altitude [like Storm Shadow/Tomahawk] sustaining speed in excess of 2.5 Mach ? any guru who can throw more light on this.

I am not a guru but I'll try. See ramjet engines are air-breathing engines. So they wont work in vaccum. But they also wont work in a dense atmosphere like sea-level because the opposing force of dense air on the missile cannot be neglected in the equations. It is significant.

So a compromise is required between vaccum and dense air.

Hence, Brahmos is launched a few kms in the air so that it can achieve maximum speed at the rarefied atmosphere and hence maximum range. At sea-level, due to dense air, the speed of the ramjet Moskit is only Mach 1.2. Brahmos will also not be any better.

So Brahmos cannot fly at sea-level at excess of Mach 2.5.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 28 Feb 2006 15:22

Basically the friction at sea level is horrendous, but I havent seen any source yet which says the Brahmos doesnt do Mach 2+ at sea level. Its final sea skimming trajectory is at supersonic speed.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 28 Feb 2006 15:51

JCage wrote:Basically the friction at sea level is horrendous, but I havent seen any source yet which says the Brahmos doesnt do Mach 2+ at sea level. Its final sea skimming trajectory is at supersonic speed.

actually that is what they are advertising, right --- that it will hit with 9times the kinetic energy.. so its terminal sea-skimming trajectory is definitely M2.5-3.

The drag is high, but the mass is very low too.. so i think there is enough thrust for sustaining acceleration against the high-drag in the terminal phase at SL.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Feb 2006 16:05

> shark processor

sharc - a family of dsp chips from analog devices.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 28 Feb 2006 16:13

I had posted the sharc thng a few months back iirc

Salman · Post by **Salman** » 28 Feb 2006 16:25

It must be noted that the range of the Brahmos in low-low profile is only 120 kms, which is less than half of its usual range of 290 kms (when launched in hi-lo profile).

This means that its speed is reduced when it cruises at just above sea-level, and implies drastic reduction in speed.

Dileep wrote:DSMC of tommy is used during the flight for course correction. In fact, there were reports of tommy getting confused over the desert of eye-rack.

DSMC is actually used for terminal guidance. The image of the target is compared with the actual, and the computer tries to maximize the matching between the 2 images by manouevering the missile. Tomahawk uses TERCON + GPS/INS for mid-course guidance.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 28 Feb 2006 16:44

>>
It must be noted that the range of the Brahmos in low-low profile is only 120 kms, which is less than half of its usual range of 290 kms (when launched in hi-lo profile).

This means that its speed is reduced when it cruises at just above sea-level, and implies drastic reduction in speed.
'

Huh? If anything it implies that speed remains high & hence impacts range given more friction at sea level needs to be overcome to maintain the speed & more of the onboard energy (ie fuel) is used up in this manner.