Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Nov 21, 2015

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Dec 2015 22:51

It is not "India is dancing to US tune". Rather, India is supportive of the international order, i.e., it will not use radical means to up-end the existing international order; it will "work within the system".

A radical method of changing the world order, would be, e.g., to proliferate nuclear weapons. Or to support "non-state actors" a.k.a. international terrorists. Thus, while not a ratifier of NPT or CTBT, India will not gratuitously violate these. Leading power or balancing power, even PM Modi's India is a "status quo" power, not a "revisionist" power.

PS: Already, in PM's speech to the Afghan Parliament - the sandwiching Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, an Indian Pashtun, between "India remembers Afghan contributions to the independence struggle" and "the first Indian government in-exile in Afghanistan" can be read as a signal about the Durand Line; of where Indian sympathies lie; and certainly not in accord with the USA. I dunno, maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but it tickles me.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Dec 2015 23:13

BajiraoMastani

Replace Nizam with Pak

thats what happened Christmas Day!!!

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 27 Dec 2015 23:41

A picture worth thousand words...
Sharif doing kanyadaan - in pink Rajasthani safa given by Modi.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 28 Dec 2015 00:32

Since many other family members were also wearing pink turbans, Modi's gift was co-ordinated with Sharif's staff. This means, that the visit was planned well in advance....

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Dec 2015 00:59

The thing is, if India does not take the initiative in controlling its neighborhood to suit itself, then others will step in and start advising india.

Containing Pakistani haramigiri is partly India's job too.
Pakistan has played the US against India for far too long. They have conducted terrorist attacks on our soil and then ran to hide behind the US. Conducted terrorist strikes in Afghanistan, and then blackmailed the US using the Indian bogey.

The US, with its short attention span, and its penchant for throwing some more money at a problem, and its lack of South Asia experts was always reacting to Pakistani haramigiri. They knew they are being taken for a ride, but had to grit and suck it up. They had to ride out Kiyani's tenure !

Now if GoI is proactive, its leadership is aggressive and flamboyant, its national security minders are experienced and have razor sharp intellect, it opens so many more options for India that were not fesable earlier.

India is doing its own version of blow-hot, blow-cold, keep pakistan guessing, diverting its energies.
This is partly what MMS was doing - only with chai-biskoot and taking in terror strike after the other.
Modi-Doval ji have upped the ante, and are playing a very fast paced game, replacing the chai-biskoot with carrot and sticks, replacing the ends at which the carrot and sticks go ever so often.
The game is too fast for Pakistan to catch on, and they will run out of money, energy, national cohesion trying to play it.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 28 Dec 2015 01:07

shiv wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:
For those of us used to crass arrogance from the political class, or its obverse--a kind of fake overwrought ghazal-spouting gentlemanliness-- it can be difficult to understand Modi's natural warmth, grace and class. Especially considering the entire propaganda about Modi has been that he is a rustic gangster type. The DIE classes repeat this with fear and loathing, while many of the fed-up Hindus hope and wish that Modi would be an authoritarian gangster.
Astounding as it may seem, there is a connection between the attitudes you describe and the attitudes of the people of Delhi last days of the Mughal empire - attitudes that were carried on into British built Lutyens Delhi - which were then inherited by the Congress party.

The late Mughal Delhi-ites considered themselves to be the most ghazal-spouting cultured, with the prettiest women and the best mangoes, and looked down upon outside towns from there their armies were recruited - describing those other Indians as "Purbies" (easterners) or even "Talinganis" - people of Telengana who were part of the army.

The same contempt for the Indian, love for Urdu speech and Ghazals and high and well connected incestuous society carried on into Lutyens Delhi and the likes of Nehru and his clan and hangers on like Mani Shankar Aiyer, servile gulaams like MMS and others including the NDTV crowd. A culture that has lastes about 150 - 200 years - from teh early 1800s - past 1857 to 2014

It is the non Delhi PMs who actually did India proud - including Narasimha Rao, Atalji and now Modi

Good historical insight, shiv. The thread of Delhi's feudal effeteness has never been cut, and remains continuous. Old Chandni Chowk Delhi's whorehouses ringing with Ghalib's weepy drunken doggerel, morphed into the Prufrock debauchery of Tarun Tejpal and the Lutyens elite.

William Dalrymple wrote in one of his books that the punjabi community including refugees became the noveaux riches of Delhi and were looked on with dismay by the old cosmopolitan elite. But the punjabis had enough dynamism and drive to break into this class and I guess, dominate it these days.

This is more relevant to the "what makes Pakistan tick" thread, but I'd guess that at least one piece of the puzzle there is the shared goal of this snooty effete feudal Drones Club (without the added fictional Wodehousean charm) lifestyle. RAPEs do what they do because they are Drones; they are able to continue doing it because of their fellow Drones on the Indian side, who just happen to be comparatively more intelligent and hardworking. It's like a generally useless family with one branch having more resources and looking out for the other.

Needless to say, anything like a real-life Drones Club is an anachronism in a democratic era.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 28 Dec 2015 01:14

Cain Marko wrote:The last time vajpayee was trying to be all peaceful statesman like in Lahore and what not, India got stabbed in the back with kargil. Let us see what gift tsp comes up with this time.

All this hype in media and br jingoes about modi being out of the box genius and what not remains to be seen.

Modi is indeed an out of the box high caliber genius, but the point many people miss is that he is India's PM, not the BRF's PM. Two different things entirely.

Rajagopal · Post by **Rajagopal** » 28 Dec 2015 02:52

Gagan wrote:The thing is, if India does not take the initiative in controlling its neighborhood to suit itself, then others will step in and start advising india.

Containing Pakistani haramigiri is partly India's job too.
Pakistan has played the US against India for far too long. They have conducted terrorist attacks on our soil and then ran to hide behind the US. Conducted terrorist strikes in Afghanistan, and then blackmailed the US using the Indian bogey.

The US, with its short attention span, and its penchant for throwing some more money at a problem, and its lack of South Asia experts was always reacting to Pakistani haramigiri. They knew they are being taken for a ride, but had to grit and suck it up. They had to ride out Kiyani's tenure !

Now if GoI is proactive, its leadership is aggressive and flamboyant, its national security minders are experienced and have razor sharp intellect, it opens so many more options for India that were not fesable earlier.

India is doing its own version of blow-hot, blow-cold, keep pakistan guessing, diverting its energies.
This is partly what MMS was doing - only with chai-biskoot and taking in terror strike after the other.
Modi-Doval ji have upped the ante, and are playing a very fast paced game, replacing the chai-biskoot with carrot and sticks, replacing the ends at which the carrot and sticks go ever so often.
The game is too fast for Pakistan to catch on, and they will run out of money, energy, national cohesion trying to play it.

Gagan: Excellent analysis. This line of thinking is possibly the most likely theory that explains all the strange games and moves played by Doval and Co.

In essence, we have to takeover the role played by the Americans all these days. If we play the role of the big brother to the hilt, Pakis will find somebody else to do the equal-equal. i.e Af-Pak, Bangla-Pak, Iran-Pak, etc. We must promise them the sky but deliver nothing.

In the near future, if Pakis can be "convinced" to see us as a beneficiary instead of an enemy, the very foundation on which it was built will collapse. The society will turn against each other.

If the Pak army is smart enough to see through the moves, they will resist India getting any closer than this.

Expect some big dhamakawali events happening inside India very soon. Hope our security forces are alert and ready for them.

Rajagopal · Post by **Rajagopal** » 28 Dec 2015 03:21

This editorial from across the border comes close to deciphering the agenda behind Modi's visit.

"According to India sources, the central idea was to signal that every meeting — even at the highest level — is not a summit, every meeting doesn’t have to have an “outcome.
” This should be a loud and clear message that this was a smokescreen.
This will take the pressure off the Indian side to make physical progress on the issue."

http://nation.com.pk/editorials/27-Dec-2015/ego-trip

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 28 Dec 2015 03:27

or maybe we would like to see a stable relationship between two nuclear armed states?

don't make us issue another traveler advisory....

No just issue them for Ferguson, Minneapolis, Florida, NYC......

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 28 Dec 2015 03:46

Milano wrote:A good OpEd that raises interesting observations that I had not previously considered - that the Pak Fauj is not monolithic, i.e. that PA and ISI can and sometimes do work at cross-purposes. Her piece tends to confirm that you can correlate the mood of the security establishment by what certain anchors and journalists are spewing. That said, I am a bit surprised not to see a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth in the daily rags about this new period of engagement...would appear that the whole Pak establishment (Civ + PA + ISI) are on the same page this time. http://nation.com.pk/columns/27-Dec-2015/the-boyzes

How is it a good op-ed? The writer seems to not get the sarcasm in the tweets about Modi causing earthquakes in Pakistan.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 28 Dec 2015 03:54

Guddu wrote:Since many other family members were also wearing pink turbans, Modi's gift was co-ordinated with Sharif's staff. This means, that the visit was planned well in advance....

Something tells me Modi (certainly Dovalji) is laughing... PINK safa! (Coordination with Sharif's staff is certainly likely - Safa has plenty of material - even for a sari - If Generals (or Mullahs) can wear a burqa I am sure, if time comes, pink sari would be good way to camouflage

)

I am sure most experts will know, but some BRFites may not know much about Rajasthani safa. This is a Jodhpuri safa. the correct color to wear in winter is saffron. Pink safa is worn in spring.

From:http://www.ignca.nic.in/coilnet/rj168.htm

ॠतुओं के अनुसार रंगों का चयन

हमारे राजस्थान में आदि काल से ॠतुओं के अनुसार पाग-पगड़ियों के रंगों का चयन होता था।

१. बसन्त ॠतु में गुलाबी।

२. ग्रीष्म ॠतु में फूल गुलाबी तथा "बहरीया' - जिसमें रंगों की धारियां एवं हल्के छींटे लगे हों, बांधा जाता था।

३. वर्षा में - मलयागिरी - जो लाल चन्दन जैसा होता है। मलयागिरी में चन्दन का पुट होता है, और वर्षा काल में श्रावण-भादों के फंवारे जैसे ही पाग को गीला करते हैं, उसमें से चन्दन की सुगन्ध प्रस्फुटित होती है।

४. शरद ॠतु में गुल-ए-अनार रग की पाग बांधी जाती थी। (आसोज कार्तिक)।

५. हेमन्त ॠतु (मिगसर-पोष) "मोलिया' बांधा जाता है, अर्थात् विभिन्न रंगों की पगड़ी।

६. शिशिर ॠतु (माह-फाल्गुन) में केसरिया रंग बांधा जाता है, क्योंकि इन दिनों शीतलता के कारण पसीने से रंग छूटता नहीं है।

Rough translation:
In spring - Pink
In summer - Pink with some spots..
In Rainy season - sandalwood color
Fall - pomegranate
Winter: -- Saffron..

So why did NaMo did not give Sharif a saffron color??? (May be as above says - do not choose this color if the person 'sweats')..

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 28 Dec 2015 04:55

This has been posted before, with little reaction,
"A Conversation with Gen. Khalid Kidwai - 2015 Carnegie International Nuclear Policy Conference"
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNZCw0BXKyE

There is a transcript also, (PDF file), here, which may make the material more accessible:
http://carnegieendowment.org/files/03-2 ... KIDWAI.pdf

milano · Post by **milano** » 28 Dec 2015 06:30

KLNMurthy wrote:
Milano wrote:A good OpEd that raises interesting observations that I had not previously considered - that the Pak Fauj is not monolithic, i.e. that PA and ISI can and sometimes do work at cross-purposes. Her piece tends to confirm that you can correlate the mood of the security establishment by what certain anchors and journalists are spewing. That said, I am a bit surprised not to see a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth in the daily rags about this new period of engagement...would appear that the whole Pak establishment (Civ + PA + ISI) are on the same page this time. http://nation.com.pk/columns/27-Dec-2015/the-boyzes
How is it a good op-ed? The writer seems to not get the sarcasm in the tweets about Modi causing earthquakes in Pakistan.

Fair point, KLNMurthy Sir, on the sarcastic tweets - she clearly missed there. I thought it was good in so far as opening my eyes to the possibility that there have been times when the Army and ISI are working at cross purposes. She seems to confirm a theory I have long held that, depending on which journalist is on whose payroll (Army or ISI), you may be able to indirectly gauge the mood of the real powers in Pakistan who have final say on foreign policy by reading their pieces. I had always thought of Army and ISI as being one and the same, and that the only fissure is between Civilians and the Army/ISI combine; however, she's providing some evidence (new to me anyways) that ISI can have a mind of its own.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2015 06:34

A_Gupta wrote:It is not "India is dancing to US tune". Rather, India is supportive of the international order, i.e., it will not use radical means to up-end the existing international order; it will "work within the system".

This is what it looks like to me personally.

Of course my personal viewpoint is that India should not engage Pakistan at all. I think a few BRFites support this and perhaps a few groups in India - maybe Shiv Sena support this - not sure. But no Indian government or national political party has ever supported the idea of not engaging Pakistan at all. The Congress never said that. The BJP has never said that. Even the RSS has not demanded that India should never engage Pakistan.

So when Modi, earlier this year, cancelled talks with Pakistan because of terrorism I was very happy. I thought, now this is a government with brains. My brains.

However the government is in no way following my recommendation. They are back to engaging Pakistan as a matter of policy - a policy that has never been one of complete lack of engagement as I have recommended. If the government's policy is one of engaging Pakistan - where does the US come in? Especially at this point in time - late 2015 - when there is no special IndoPak crisis causing international or American chaddi wetting based on subcontinental events.

What I have seen on this thread is a kind of general cheer and celebration when the Modi government stopped engaging Pakistan and a sense of disappointment when engagement restarted. It seems to me that this disappointment is sought to be explained away by blaming it on extraneous factors - that is US pressure. As if India left to itself would ignore Pakistan, but because the US does not allow it, India is engaging Pakistan. But the premise that India would not want to engage Pakistan is itself wrong. It is only a fervent hope that people like me and a few other Pakistan lovers have.

milano · Post by **milano** » 28 Dec 2015 06:40

shiv wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:It is not "India is dancing to US tune". Rather, India is supportive of the international order, i.e., it will not use radical means to up-end the existing international order; it will "work within the system".
This is what it looks like to me personally.

Of course my personal viewpoint is that India should not engage Pakistan at all. I think a few BRFites support this and perhaps a few groups in India - maybe Shiv Sena support this - not sure. But no Indian government or national political party has ever supported the idea of not engaging Pakistan at all. The Congress never said that. The BJP has never said that. Even the RSS has not demanded that India should never engage Pakistan.

So when Modi, earlier this year, cancelled talks with Pakistan because of terrorism I was very happy. I thought, now this is a government with brains. My brains.

However the government is in no way following my recommendation. They are back to engaging Pakistan as a matter of policy - a policy that has never been one of complete lack of engagement as I have recommended. If the government's policy is one of engaging Pakistan - where does the US come in? Especially at this point in time - late 2015 - when there is no special IndoPak crisis causing international or American chaddi wetting based on subcontinental events.

What I have seen on this thread is a kind of general cheer and celebration when the Modi government stopped engaging Pakistan and a sense of disappointment when engagement restarted. It seems to me that this disappointment is sought to be explained away by blaming it on extraneous factors - that is US pressure. As if India left to itself would ignore Pakistan, but because the US does not allow it, India is engaging Pakistan. But the premise that India would not want to engage Pakistan is itself wrong. It is only a fervent hope that people like me and a few other Pakistan lovers have.

Fully agree, Sir. The one consolation we have is that this time we seem to have a government for whom engagement does not necessarily always have to be of the positive kind.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 28 Dec 2015 07:02

KLNMurthy wrote:How is it a good op-ed? The writer seems to not get the sarcasm in the tweets about Modi causing earthquakes in Pakistan.

Was it really sarcastic? To me they looked like barely concealed hatred augmented by an epic butt-hurt wrapped in a fig leaf of sarcasm- much like Simon Sharma tweet on "Super PM not needing earplugs" that was followed up a with melodramatic "joke ruined" when he was called out on it.

The way these journos are used by ISI is not dissimilar to how Congress party tends to employ the likes of MSA, Digvijaya, Khursheed and Manish Tiwari.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2015 07:10

Milano wrote: 1. A stabilizing domestic situation in Pakistan due to apparent success of Operation Ass-e-Grab and investment via CPEC; India perhaps realizes it can't take advantage of an off-balance Pakistan
2. An Indian government losing the plot due to external and internal pressure piled on about "intolerance" - needing something dramatic/positive to divert attention from the domestic front
3. India dramatically upping the costs on the LOC and Pakistan finally feeling sufficient pain to straighten up
4. Some kind of proof provided by Pak to India that it is changing course (for real this time, really)

I would rule out option 2. India does not mix international relations with domestic politics. Domestic politics is extremely dirty and the politicians are either equally dirty of thickskinned enough to simply ignore what is thrown at them. this intolerance debate has had no impact on India's policies - especially with a security threat like Pakistan.

I have been wondering about Nawaz Sharif's role in all this. First off, Nawaz Sharif is now a seasoned politician in Pakistan with a powerful domestic base in Pakjab. He presided over Pakistan's nuke tests in 1998 and was at the helm when Kargil occurred. When he met Vajpayee he did not show the warmth or indeed the anxiety that (I think) his demeanour has displayed this year. That, and the Kargil misadventure made us suspicious of Nawaz Sharif.

However, history has shown that Musharraf was the author of Kargil and soon after Kargil Nawaz Sharif tried to get rid of Musharraf and failed. He paid for it and was rescued (we believe) by KSA. These events and several subsequent events have shown that Nawaz Sharif and the Pakistan army do not always see eye to eye. That said, Nawaz Sharif's political base is from out and out Islamic extremists including anti-Shia groups like the LeJ. The LeT may be pro Pakistan army, but it is tolerated by the Nawaz Sharif government.

From the Indian viewpoint, both the Pakistan army and Nawaz Sharif support Islamist opposition to India. If we are opposed to islamic extremism, we have to work against the civilian and military establishment. By working with one or the other we are accepting that we are doing a deal with someone who represents anti-India Islamists. The only marginal "benefit" that can accrue for us in working with Nawaz Sharif is the extent to which he has differences with the army. NS himself cannot go against the army, but when he or his representatives talk to India in private it is possible that they are able to say things that the civilian entities want that the army does not want. I suspect that Nawaz Sharif may have privately indicated some things to GoI that can serve as a starting point that neither enrages the Pak army, nor puts him at risk with his civilian constituents.

There are a few things that Nawaz Sharif and the Paki army probably agree about. One of those things is terrorist attacks within Pakistan. The other is probably a struggling economy from ongoing civil wars. Both these can have an India hand - and that India hand is totally deniable. Indian ability to interfere in Pakistan was made easier by the fact that the Paki army and the civilian politicians were supporting their own terrorist groups for their own purposes and were often working at cross purposes within Pakistan. So when India and Pakistan talk and when the GoI tells us the talk will be about terrorism, it may not just be terrorism against India, but terrorism within Pakistan as well. Only time will tell if terrorist attacks continue in India. It is only 1 year since there was a bomb blast in Bangalore and only weeks since the last soldier was killed at the LoC and policemen killed in Srinagar. It is only days since Pakistan's last bomb blast.

I suspect this engagement with Pakistan is going to centre around terrorism. That is what GoI has said, so far. Let us see.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 28 Dec 2015 07:11

US pressure on India and Pakistan to talk seems obvious to me. But, the interesting part seems to be that its not just US, but even Russia or China want India and Pakistan to talk. Pakistan serves the purpose of keeping India tied down. The present day powers like the status quo including a tied-down India. Why would anyone else want India to be freed up and rise as new pole of power? The present day powers would certainly not want new competition.

Now, this Indian govt has said that it is not against engagement or talking. But, it has some red-lines and pre-conditions:
- talks and terror can't go together.
- terrorism must stop and 26/11 is a test case.
- Pakistan can't talk to separatists if they want to talk to Indian govt.
- if there is firing on the border or LOC, then there will be retaliation.

This govt has laid down basic rules of engagement and so far, the govt has stuck to it. Ufa and Bangkok mention 26/11 and terrorism prominently.

There are other moves like leaking a video of brutalities committed by Pakistan Army in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. And also Doval ji had said that Afghanistan is a neighbour of India because POK belongs to India. There was also an attempt to corner Pakistan in 26/11 case in UN and other such platforms. India was part of Heart of Asia meet. There also seem to be moves to strengthen the armed forces and give them more free hand in dealing with security on the borders.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2015 07:23

There is a huge difference between the obvious fact that there is pressure on every country in the world to do something and a retrospective explanation that something that already happened was due to specific pressure.

If we know what types of pressure are acting on India we should be able to predict what India could do to mitigate any pressure that is against Indian interests. But we don't seem to do that. What we do is to wait for some event to appear in the news and then say "Oh I know this event occurred because xyz applied pressure.

Apart from the fact that this is a laughable conclusion, it only indicates a desperate search for an explanation that makes one come to terms with events that cannot otherwise be explained - like the way we used to explain away MMS's actions as "he wants the Nobel Peace prize"

Perhaps Modi now hankers for the Nobel Peace prize? The evidence is there for all to see. Maybe the US has promised to pressure Norway and told Modi about that?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 28 Dec 2015 08:08

shiv wrote: Of course my personal viewpoint is that India should not engage Pakistan at all.

Me too.

But if there is any engagement, nothing should be given away.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Dec 2015 08:36

India’s trade with Pakistan may get a boost by Nawaz Sharif government following PM Modi’s fresh initiative - Dipanjan Roy Chaudhry, Economic Times

India's trade with Pakistan could get a boost through a more liberal visa regime, closer links between business houses and grant of most favoured nation status {What a pipe dream!} to the country by the Nawaz Sharif government, following Prime Minister Narendra Modi's fresh initiative to reach out to his counterpart in an attempt to improve bilateral relations.

Officials said improvement in economic relations is one of the least controversial and, therefore, the most easily achievable of the confidence building measures envisaged in the comprehensive bilateral dialogue recently launched by the two sides. Bilateral trade was one area which saw some progress when structured dialogue between the two neighbours was resumed in 2011 after the 2008 terrorist attack in Mumbai.

India-Pakistan trade touched a peak of $2.7 billion in 2013-14, before dropping to $2.35 billion in the next fiscal. Trade through third countries is estimated at $3.5-4 billion. Modi had urged Sharif at their first meeting in Delhi in May 2014, a day after he was sworn in as PM, to take steps to improve cross-border business relations. While there has not been much progress on the ground so far, Modi's surprise visit to Lahore on December 25 and the impetus this is likely to give to relations could change things for the better, the official said {This is a very wrong expectation. I am surprised an official stated this, unless it was diplomatese}.

In July last year, the Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan had announced the country's unilateral decision to grant three-year multiple entry business visas to eligible Pakistani nationals. This came after the revised visa agreement of September 2012 liberalised provisions regarding business visas and allowed visa holders to travel to 10 cities for business purposes.

Although efforts have been made to give a fillip to exchange of trade delegations over the past few years, Pakistan has alleged delay in granting business visas to visit India. Further liberalisation of the visa regime could be discussed at the next commerce secretary-level meeting, officials said.

India had accorded MFN status to Pakistan in 1996 to boost bilateral trade, but a Pakistan cabinet decision of November 2, 2011 to reciprocate this remains unimplemented. In March 2012, Pakistan substituted a 'positive list' of over 1,950 tariff lines permitted for import from India by a 'negative list' of 1,209 lines, Pakistan government officials said.

The two countries had during the commerce secretary-level talks in Islamabad in September 2012 agreed on a road map to move toward full normalisation of bilateral trade. However, Pakistan is yet to implement its decision as per the road map - permitting all importable items through Wagah-Attari land route against only 137 at present - Indian officials said.

Three agreements - Customs Cooperation Agreement, Mutual Recognition Agreement and Redressal of Trade Grievances Agreement - were signed during the 2012 talks, officials said. In January 2014, the commerce ministers of the two countries reaffirmed the commitment to expedite establishment of normal trading relations and to provide non-discriminatory market access (NDMA) on a reciprocal basis.

The ministers decided to intensify and accelerate the process of trade normalisation, liberalisation and facilitation, and to implement the agreed measures before the end of February 2014. However, implementation of these steps, including removal of 'negative list' and restrictions on the number of importable items via Wagah land route by Pakistan is still awaited, officials said.

They said the two sides may also consider cooperation in gas and petroleum sector. In 2013, the Pakistan PM had asked for assistance to tackle power crisis in Pakistan. The possibility of supplying up to 5 million cubic metres gas per day by extending the Dadri-Bawana-Nangal pipeline from Jalandhar via Amritsar to Lahore, and establishing a 500 MW high-voltage direct current link from Amritsar to Lahore to facilitate power trading were explored.

The integrated check post at Attari now possesses better infrastructure to facilitate trade and travel.

Spread over 118 acres, it contains a passenger terminal measuring 9,600 square metres, a dedicated 4,700-sq-metre cargo terminal and separate import and export warehouses measuring over 10,000 sq metres, apart from over 50,000 square metres of parking space for trucks and an equally large area for future expansion.

Officials said the two sides have earlier discussed initiatives such as 24x7 operation at Attari-Wagah trade route, movement of containers between Amritsar and Lahore, and meeting point for business persons at Attari-Wagah. Various segments of Pakistan society have spoken in favour of opening more land trade routes with India, including Munabao-Khokhrapar, officials said. A joint working group is slated to consider this matter.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 28 Dec 2015 08:47

>> Of course my personal viewpoint is that India should not engage Pakistan at all.

+1. I agree.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2015 09:25

SSridhar wrote:India’s trade with Pakistan may get a boost by Nawaz Sharif government following PM Modi’s fresh initiative - Dipanjan Roy Chaudhry, Economic Times

Would rather see trade with Afghanistan improved.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 28 Dec 2015 09:26

Pink pagdis\safa are worn by many Rajput communities in Noth Indian weddings too. Shouldn't read too much in to saffron or pink thing.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Dec 2015 09:42

Maybe pink chosen to show new beginning for pagdi color readers!

member_29089 · Post by **member_29089** » 28 Dec 2015 09:56

In my humble opinion the Modi landing in Lawhore can be summarized as below.

- Modi, Doval, and their RSS team (Shah, Swaraj, Gadkari, Rajnath Singh, Parrikar etc) know well that pakis can't be trusted and there is no use of signing any treaties as all the past treaties have been dumped by the pakis

- Modi and his team know that indian fake-seculars (Nitish, Congees, Kejri, media, etc) are scoring points by scaring the general population with the "intolerance-card" - so the sudden droppings in Lawhore will blunt that weapon for some time to come.

- Now Modi drops in to Lawhore to meet with the most inept and powerless PM for pawwaw. It serves to defang the "intolerance-card", it shows the "international-community" that Modi is at least trying to engage the Poaks, it makes the Unifored Jehadies (AKA paki army) look stupid and stunned, all this while achieving or losing nothing.

- Nothing whatsoever will change between India-pak until porkilund is divided into 4 logical pieces. Paki Nukes are the problems of USA and China who facilitated poaks into having them. Let them sort it out.

- Further Modi dropping onto Lawhore will create more infighting and distrust among various shades of greens (uniformed, non-uniformed, and bhookha nangas),

- Dropping into a wedding must have resulted in modi blessing the bride and groom in who touched his feet - reminding them of their hindoo ancestry and nudging them into the subtle option of ghar-wapsi.

- 200+ entourage (including ModiJi) using pakistan in pakistan may be the real reason.

- In the meanwhile India keeps marching towards better economy, better governance, etc etc

- All in all a genius move by NaMo

RajeshG · Post by **RajeshG** » 28 Dec 2015 11:50

mere pyare 25 crore pakistaniyon..

aaj main apse 3 zha ke barey main baat karna chahta hoon.. zhameer, zharurat, zhindagi..

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 28 Dec 2015 11:56

Afghanistan is suffering huge attacks from Taliban.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Dec 2015 13:33

India should NOT give any unilateral concessions to Pakistan.

It is time the Pakistanis gave some concessions.

These beggers will have great pangs if they gave away something, it will be a national disaster of epic proportions and will be a talking point.
They have always claimed they have big hearts (standard pakistani tactic into extracting concession, right before dropping down on their knees and grovelling). It is time they actually showed their famed big hearts for once, and gave India a concession - any concession!

Until we all have had a demonstration of that fabled big heart, there should NOT be any unilateral concession to Pakistan.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Dec 2015 13:59

Although Pakistan's negotiating tactics can be summarized as "Negotiating with the gun pointed to their own head", I offer an expansion of the various stages they go through, when they negotiate. They usually go down these stages in serial order.

Stage 1: Demand a concession, banging fists on the table! Subtly bring up Nuclear weapons and terrorism.

Stage 2: Endlessly pester with useless, lahori logic type arguments, into giving up some concession. (Example of 1&2 being the pakis meeting an israeli delegation secretly in istanbul, and asking them to not supply weapons to india. The israelis are so disgusted/irritated with the Pakis, that the Israeli PM keeps them at an arms length away in international meets)

Stage 3: Take recourse to "pakistani/punjabi muslims have big hearts", and essentially trying to shame/guilt trip the opponent. The appropriate urdu term for this is "farakh-dili" (large-heartedness). Simultaneously, they will paint all sorts of deadly scenarios - 'fledgeling democracy in danger' with the west to 'sunni islam in danger with KSA'!
A word of advise: When Pakistanis are in stage 3, and you've heard the Large heart and/or farakhdili term being used, beware! One of two things may happen:
i) The Pak fauj /ISI will order a terror strike, try to take hostages, and try to go back to stage 1. Or
ii) They will go over to stage 4, below...

Stage 4: Drop down on their knees! grovel! cry loudly! make a lot of noise! pull out the gun and point it at their own head, unless they get what they seek.
They feel that threatening to puke and spill their guts over your expensive carpet or stain your expensive suit with their blood once they've shot themself, is a fairly good blackmailing tool, that can give them the desired concession.

Once you reach stage 3, when in negotiations with pakistan, I would recommend waiting and bracing yourself for haramigiri in the way of some kind of terrorist incident.

Please note: Since they deliberately have multiple power centers, they will use the other power center to weasel out of any commitment that they've made. They see what they have as a blackmailing chip that can bring them endless revenues, so they'll want to use it again.

Their cricket negotiations with us are somewhere in stage 3 now.

Err,
If you still haven't given in by stage 4, they will get up from their knees, and leave in a huff, throwing some choice verbal abuses in Punjabi on your face. Then they'll sulk in a corner, hoping things will somehow change. Please note: They speak urdu when they try to impress you, they always abuse in Punjabi

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 28 Dec 2015 14:27

My CT on Modi visit to Lahore is. It is definitely under prodding (aka preassure) from Unkill Roos and Cheen for sure. I think all superpowers think there is a window of opportunity in Afghanistan to negotiate some kind of settlement since Taliban is currently rudderless with leadership crisis. They want Pakis to bring them (all rainbow of telebunny leadership) to table and calming down eastern border could be a carrot that was offered to them. Modi visit could be a way to defuse tensions and hammer out some truce between India Pakistan and let Zarb r Azb continue.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Dec 2015 14:50

Sir two issues
1. The use of the term pressure.
India can't be pressured to do things it itself doesn't want to do. All nations, at the head of state level, and other levels, request and suggest. The final decision usually remains with the nation in question.
One can only pressure nations with a single center of power, where the power is vested in one individual - like a monarchy, dictatorship or a congress dynasty ruled India.

2. The taliban don't have a leadership crisis !
They no longer have a spiritual leadership after Mullah Omar and OBL died. They only have an operational head (who also happens to have control of some finances), for which there is some infighting.
The taliban are headed by some Brigadier or General ranking officer in some relevant section of the ISID in aabpara

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 28 Dec 2015 15:22

There is absolutely nothing wrong with engagement!

We need to think of ourselves as the ones having the Pakistani throat in our grip! Whenever they act as scorpions, which they would do as it is their nature, we squeeze our grip so that Paki tongues hang out and eyes pop out, and when Pakistanis behave a little, we let go of the tight grip just slightly, and let them get a few gasps of air.

May be India is not in a position to snap Paki neck just yet, but we need some time to get there. Until then we simply squeeze their throats.

Now regulating pressure on the Paki throat is "ENGAGING PAKISTAN".

It has nothing to do with American pressure or British pressure or the like! In fact Modi may just be taking the Americans and other Western leaders "into confidence" to show that their contribution to Indo-Pak rapprochement is "valuable", so that they can feel better about it, more positively towards India, and don't fall for their gut urges for high-standing and to trying to preach peace to India, even though they have no standing and little leverage.

Engaging Pakis is only letting them gasp for air and make them feel elated by the experience of being able to breathe. This is important so that Pakis don't look for fourfathers to get some respite.

We have left the notion of giving Pakis anything at all - from Kashmir to Sir Creek to Siachin light years behind. All this is not on the table. The only thing on the table is a pat and a hug by Modi as well as some H&D mumbo-jumbo in Urdu!

Modi is cutting out the whole Mughal-Lutyens caste from Indo-Pak (as well as the Indo-West) relationship! He is the architect of the "New Pat the Dog Policy" with a thrashing and whipping just a few mood changes away!

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 28 Dec 2015 18:11

TSJones wrote:.

don't make us issue another traveler advisory....

If thats what we have to do to keep your child molesting Evangelicals out of our borders and inside yours..

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 28 Dec 2015 18:15

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 696_1.html
"How Sushma Swaraj helped Modi get his Pak groove back"

Typical of her low profile, there wasn't a word from Swaraj that it was her rapport with Sharif and his family that contributed to the warm embrace the two PMs exchanged at Lahore's Allama Iqbal Airport on Friday afternoon. "That's like a statesman. Padosi se aise hi rishte hone chahiyen (That's the kind of warm relations neighbours should have)" was all tweeted.
...
Swaraj has worked assiduously to build good relations with Sharif and his family. In November-end, Swaraj was in Valletta, capital of the Mediterranean island-nation of Malta that hosted the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, or CHOGM. There, as a South Block source recounted, the dignitaries were made to sit in the order that they receive the first rays of the rising sun.

It meant Bangladesh Foreign Minister Abul Hassan Mahmood, sat on the right of Swaraj and the Pak PM on her left. Sharif and Swaraj chatted endlessly, the source said. By the second day, the seating arrangement was changed somewhat. The Bangladeshi minister now sat at some distance from Swaraj and Sharif because of a gap in the circular table. This helped Swaraj and Sharif to talk with more ease. Swaraj's proficiency in Urdu and Punjabi helped the conversation build up. Sharif had travelled to Valletta with his mother Shamim Akhtar, wife Kalsoom and daughter Maryam. Swaraj was invited to meet them. It helped that no journalists and camera crews from India or Pakistan were present when Swaraj broke the ice with the Sharif family.
....
Apart from her meetings with Sharif and her Pakistani counterpart Sartaj Aziz, she again spent over four hours with Sharif's family in Islamabad. Aziz even complemented Swaraj for her command over Urdu, confessing that in his case, his Punjabi at times interfered with his Urdu pronunciation. "Yes, subah (morning in Urdu) becomes suvere-suvere (Punjabi for morning)," Swaraj joked.

She again called on Sharif's mother. "Tu mere watan se aayi hai, vaada kar rishte theek karke jayegi (You have come from my homeland, promise me you will try improve relations)," she told Swaraj, and spoke with nostalgia about her birthplace, Bheem ki Katra, in Amritsar. She said neither had she visited Amritsar after Partition nor met any from her watan before Swaraj. The two spoke at length about Amritsar, a city Swaraj would visit often when growing up in her Ambala hometown and later during her political career.

Akhtar also asked about Modi and told Swaraj that the Indian PM had sent her a shawl, and asks about her wellbeing whenever speaking to her son. Swaraj also met Sharif's wife, daughter and granddaughters. "I met four generations of the Sharif family," she told people after returning from Islamabad.

Swaraj's meeting with Aziz led to the decision to resume the "comprehensive bilateral dialogue". Before returning, Swaraj met Sharif's daughter, Maryam. "Tell your grandmother that I have kept my promise (on improving relations)," she told her.

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 28 Dec 2015 18:16

As a newbie first, let me commended everyone here for the excellent quality of the discussion following Modi-ji's surprise visit to Pakistan. My two-paisa contribution !
-Everyone agrees that (world) balance of power has shifted from US/Europe to Asia.
-Everyone agrees that US domination is only "sustained" by sheer military power (Economic power on decline)
-Everyone agrees that US will not allow any nation to usurp its dominance and will use everything in its power to play one nation against other (Russia-China, India-China, Saudi-Iran) and thwart the rise of an absolute power; it seems to have forgotten history (Rise and Fall Of the Roman Empire/British Empire!)
-This is one way of explaining US behaviour towards India- Pak
-If looked, from this angle , for the US:
Nightmare # 1
Formal/informal alliance between Russia/China, India/Pak, Pak and Ummah world , against US, Nato etc ( zero percent chance)
Nightmare # 1 A
Paki nuclear weapons falling in wrong hands ; Paki dreams of Ummah leadership, with Saudi money power and Islamic atom bomb, coming true
Nightmare # 2
Formal/informal alliance by India -Pak against US (very little chance)
Nightmare # 3
US will not support India membership in UN security council unless it emerges as a pro US power
Conclusion:
Unless Pakistan shed their Pakistanayat (so-called H and D, Mughal power dreams, = = dreams, ), there can be no peace between these two countries. Pakis due to their beggar status, internal civil war, will always look to 3.5 friends for economic survival, and will always do their bidding. And will always invoke the Ummah angle for domestic consumption.
PS: Modi-ji being a Gujju, subtly playing the Bijness card with Ganja Sharif; remains to be seen if successful

habal · Post by **habal** » 28 Dec 2015 18:19

few facts:

raheel sharif is due for extension/retirement next year. extension needs good sharif's blessings.

pakistan is out of saudi orbit and USA is not what it used to be.

china corridor is pakistan's trump card these days and pakistan can't resist chinese + russian leverage.

Modi's visit to russia coinciding with pakistan drive-by may be important because of Modi's condition to Russia-China on adopting their currency basket could be normalization of relation with pakistan. Or it could be vice-versa.

pakistan is in dire straits economically.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 28 Dec 2015 18:30

http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2015/12 ... ef=d-river

Pakistan’s Race to Build Tiny Nukes Is Going to Backfire

Pakistan has the fastest growing nuclear arsenal and, within the next five to ten years, it is likely to double that of India, and exceed those of France, the United Kingdom, and China. Only the arsenals of the United States and Russia will be larger.

In recent years, Pakistan has boasted of developing “tactical nuclear weapons” to protect itself against potential offensive actions by India. In fact, Pakistan is the only country currently boasting of making increasingly tiny nuclear weapons (link in Urdu).

Pakistanis overwhelmingly support their army and its various misadventures. And the pursuit of tactical weapons is no exception. However, there is every reason why Pakistanis should be resisting—not welcoming—this development. The most readily identifiable reason is that, in the event of conflict between the two South Asian countries, this kind of weaponization will likely result in tens of thousands of dead Pakistanis, rather than Indians. And things will only go downhill from there.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Dec 2015 18:51

Our PM is a cunning gent! He is being underestimated like Gandhi was. Everyone knows that he was elected on the eco tkt,promising development and more moolah in our pockets. War beggars nations.The US/West are reeling from the trillions wasted for absolute zero in the MEast/Af-Pak. Terror has actually increased on their soil. Right now the Pakis have too many irons in the fire to concentrate on India and the dream of conquering Kashmir. In fact this dream is steadily getting beyond the Pakis as the Indian economy is stronger than theirs and our mil modernisation, though running years late,is still advancing in capability faster than they can catch up.The only area where they have some kind of parity is in N-weapons, thanks to Chinese help. Whether they do have more warheads than us according to western sources is a moot point. We are not nuclear slouches at all!

Mr.Modi wants a relatively peaceful sub-continent where economic growth all round becomes the priority of the member nations and not conflict. getting the Pakis to see the light is going to be difficult,but given their new-found reticence to go to the help of their Saudi patrons in Yemen,indicates a serious new caution on the part of their military.Had Gen. Mush-a-Rat been at the helm,we would've seen yet another tactical stroke of genius,but a strat . disaster played out this time in the Yemen. The two "sheriffs" of Pak are perhaps wiser with hindsight.

Afghanistan is yet again in the news and for all the wrong reasons. ISIS has entered that country with a following in tens of thousands according to some informed sources. Sangin is under siege and the casual western generals are now saying that "we knew it would fall,blah,blah, after we pulled out"! Vietnam redux. I've posted in the Afghan td Robert Fisk's latest report on the "bad news" from there. Stabilising Afghanistan is very much on the minds of India,Russia,Central Asia,even the US/West. China and Pak are the dodgy players. Both want to exercise their influence over that war-torn nation. But the Pakis are also feeling the pinch of endless conflict,with their extremist Taliban and trying to gain strat. depth in Af. through the machinations of the ISI. How long the Ghani regime can be propped up is a moot point,unless the other regional stakeholders come to a common plan of action. What happens in Ag-Pak is more dangerous today than the pursuit of pigs who've crossed into our side of the fence. We've gifted the Afghans a new parliament building.Let's hope it does not fall into the hands of the ungodly jihadis.Even the Pakis would be in dire straits if the likes of ISIS take root in Af-Pak.