Pathankot AirForce base under attack

[ramana]

Thanks. K-K.

[member_27581]

What worries me here is that few pigs can hold hostage (pardon my words as couldnt find a better phrase than this, please suggest) an entire FAB for two days. I wonder what will happen in a war situation when they will be more free to throw such cheap pigs at us and here we will be engaging them with our Garuds/NSGs. At no point I am questioning the sacrifice of our brave soldiers.

I am surprised no one quoted the PNS Mehran attack. Superfically that looked template for this attack. Multiple teams, cover of night to attack.

Lastly With attack in A'stan, time has come to give Shitistan what RohitVats called "big Danda" that has been long overdue at a place and time of our choice.

[NRao]

I wonder what will happen in a war situation when they will be more free to throw such cheap pigs at us

Pakistan have gamed that too. Which is why they will keep sending more Yahoo s. As opposed to actually going to war.

Cheaper.

[kit]

Sustained counter intelligence efforts need of the hour ..

[member_27581]

One thing to notice most of Pak attacks on India has been during Nov-Dec time of the year.

1971 war, attack on western border: December
Mumbai: November
Parliament attack: December
Pathonkot: December end.


Is there a know reason why PA likes war during winter?

I can think of Snow across the Kashmir mountains & water logged marsh? across Gujarat.

Any other reason?

Edit:

Another point. CT in me also notices the 7 year cycle. 2001, 2008,2015

Around 26/11, the point raised for December was that this is a good time for terrorists to instigate a war as this is preferred time for India. Their were also reports that this time is not suited for China to take actions. Not sure of that too much, but Sam Manekshaw also waited till December.

[sunilUpa]

Two terror teams may have attacked Pathankot using different vehicles

Posting in full for further analysis

Two teams of terrorists attacked the Pathankot air base on Saturday, and they had – in all likelihood – reached there in different vehicles, security sources told HT.
“The two terrorists who remained hidden at the air base and exchanged fire with security personnel on Sunday were part of another team of terrorists that had entered the vast air base area. We also suspect that they might have reached there in another vehicle,” said a senior security official on the condition of anonymity.
Sources said a lot could be deduced from the experience of Punjab superintendent of police Salwinder Singh and his jeweller friend, who were overpowered by four heavily armed persons in military uniforms – who then used his vehicle to travel nearly 500 to 1,000 metres in the direction of the air base. “This goes to confirm that there was at least one group of four terrorists that entered the air base area on the intervening night of Thursday and Friday, when they snatched Salwinder Singh’s vehicle. The calls made from the mobile phone snatched from Salwinder and his friend show they didn’t move from one area,” said another security official.
Counter-terror sources said there were intercepts that referred to a group of six terrorists infiltrating into India to carry out the attack. The security establishment is now looking for any other vehicle that might have been hijacked from the area, and used by the second group to reach the Pathankot air base.
When asked about the number of militants who may have jointly attacked the air base, a senior police officer said that it could be “as high as eight or ten”. And as a second vehicle has not been recovered despite the Punjab police combing the entire periphery of the air base, investigation officers are almost certain of the involvement of a local module of terror outfit Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) that may have dropped the other team of terrorists at the spot.
Sources said all the phone calls made by the terrorists to Pakistan were on numbers identified as that of JeM by the security establishment for a long time now.
The police are also scrutinising footage acquired from the toll plaza on the Gurdaspur-Pathankot highway – besides various police and BSF checkpoints on the Bamiyal-Pathankot road – for clues.
Police will also go into the details of the calls made to Ikagar Singh – a taxi driver from Bhagowal village who was killed by the terrorists. Initial reports have suggested that he was called from a Pakistan number, and “hired” to transport someone to a hospital. But security sources are yet to verify the timing of the call, to check if it was made when the militants were with the driver or earlier.
Security sources are looking at the timing of the call made on the phone to see if it was made when the terrorists were with him or before that.
However, as soon as Singh discovered the identity of his passengers – who were apparently picked up at the Kathlana T-point on the Bamiyal-Pathankot road – he rammed his vehicle into a rock near Kathlour bridge over the Ravi and tried to escape. Singh was, however, killed by the militants.
Singh’s family claimed that he was repairing a car tyre when he was overpowered and forced to drive ahead by the terrorists, who were hiding near the T-point.
Meanwhile, sources said that combing the thick forested areas within the air base is turning out to be a herculean task. There are few buildings in the area, other than a deserted workshop and some empty hangars. “The combing operations continued through the night, but – considering that there are militants around – we have to be very cautious to ensure that our men are not hunted down,” a top police officer said.
The officer said that the firing was confined to the same general area where the other four terrorists were killed. “The good news is – the time lapse between the firing is increasing, which means they are running short of ammunition. It is only a matter of time before we win the battle,” he added.
Security agencies halted the combing operation late in the night to prevent chances of their personnel incurring further casualties, stating that it would be resumed at first light. They said the operation would be deemed complete only after the bodies of the terrorists are recovered.

[kulhari]

What worries me here is that few pigs can hold hostage (pardon my words as couldnt find a better phrase than this, please suggest) an entire FAB for two days. I wonder what will happen in a war situation when they will be more free to throw such cheap pigs at us and here we will be engaging them with our Garuds/NSGs. At no point I am questioning the sacrifice of our brave soldiers.

I am surprised no one quoted the PNS Mehran attack. Superfically that looked template for this attack. Multiple teams, cover of night to attack.

Finding a hidden porky-with restrictions on type of arms that can be used + aim to minimize risks - is slow. I am sure replication of mehran template was THE objective but clearly it was foiled.

[member_27581]

Sustained counter intelligence efforts need of the hour ..

I think we are past that stage, there is so much that CIntel can achieve and so much defensive actions can prevent. Unless we view every inch of our borders and assets all the time we can't be absolutely safe, especially with all the vermin in our home.

As other senior posters have already highlighted that costs need to be inflicted on Porkistan. If this and A'stan attack is not an attack on Indian state then what else is. I being a civvie can feel my blood boiling at the loss of each and every braveheart. I am sure all on this forum feel with the same degree.

For those harping about costs of war, please include the cost of self respect and pride in your calculations too.

Regarding preparation, yes a final definitive answer may be given later, but then can't something quick be done. If not some unleash heavy artillery or Pinaka battery or a few B'mos on few pakistani posts or even ISI headquarters.

[kulhari]

Perhaps we should use chemicals to incapacitate atleast one porki and get him alive.

[member_27581]

Finding a hidden porky-with restrictions on type of arms that can be used + aim to minimize risks - is slow. I am sure replication of mehran template was THE objective but clearly it was foiled.

Restriction on arms type, within our territory?

[kulhari]

cannot use heavy weapons... risks collateral damage.

[member_28397]

Reaction 1: Bomb the ****** out of border posts in J&K and if necessary in Sialkot too. Any escalation from porki side should be welcomed till the ****** they exhaust they ammunition keep on going till porkis ran to masters and then continue for few more weeks or months.

Reaction 2: No more gestures of overnight talks with nawaz and other madaris talk straight to pork army dogs and when I say talk I say in the language they understand for every one Indian causality take down 10 army pigs and piglets on the other side.

Reaction 3: Hit the economy pipelines whatever little the porks have.

Reaction 4: Dont shy away from full front war the more India shies more porkis think they can keep on rampaging. Offence is best way of defense no offence defense now just cold calm constant offence.

[ramana]

Two terror teams may have attacked Pathankot using different vehicles

Posting in full for further analysis

Two teams of terrorists attacked the Pathankot air base on Saturday, and they had – in all likelihood – reached there in different vehicles, security sources told HT.

“The two terrorists who remained hidden at the air base and exchanged fire with security personnel on Sunday were part of another team of terrorists that had entered the vast air base area. We also suspect that they might have reached there in another vehicle,” said a senior security official on the condition of anonymity.

Sources said a lot could be deduced from the experience of Punjab superintendent of police Salwinder Singh and his jeweller friend, who were overpowered by four heavily armed persons in military uniforms – who then used his vehicle to travel nearly 500 to 1,000 metres in the direction of the air base. {The terrorists traveled many km in the SP's jeep using the blue beacon privileges.}“This goes to confirm that there was at least one group of four terrorists that entered the air base area on the intervening night of Thursday and Friday, when they snatched Salwinder Singh’s vehicle. The calls made from the mobile phone snatched from Salwinder and his friend show they didn’t move from one area,” said another security official.

Counter-terror sources said there were intercepts that referred to a group of six terrorists infiltrating into India to carry out the attack. The security establishment is now looking for any other vehicle that might have been hijacked from the area, and used by the second group to reach the Pathankot air base.

When asked about the number of militants who may have jointly attacked the air base, a senior police officer said that it could be “as high as eight or ten”. And as a second vehicle has not been recovered despite the Punjab police combing the entire periphery of the air base, investigation officers are almost certain of the involvement of a local module of terror outfit Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) that may have dropped the other team of terrorists at the spot.

{Too many spokesman. I wish they show some sense of propriety and not talk so much to satisfy petty ego. Ten men killed reflects very poorly on their own professionalism So don't talk yet. Mulitple failures have happened.}


Sources said all the phone calls made by the terrorists to Pakistan were on numbers identified as that of JeM by the security establishment for a long time now.

The police are also scrutinising footage acquired from the toll plaza on the Gurdaspur-Pathankot highway – besides various police and BSF checkpoints on the Bamiyal-Pathankot road – for clues.
Police will also go into the details of the calls made to Ikagar Singh – a taxi driver from Bhagowal village who was killed by the terrorists. Initial reports have suggested that he was called from a Pakistan number, and “hired” to transport someone to a hospital. But security sources are yet to verify the timing of the call, to check if it was made when the militants were with the driver or earlier.
Security sources are looking at the timing of the call made on the phone to see if it was made when the terrorists were with him or before that.

However, as soon as Singh discovered the identity of his passengers – who were apparently picked up at the Kathlana T-point on the Bamiyal-Pathankot road – he rammed his vehicle into a rock near Kathlour bridge over the Ravi and tried to escape. Singh was, however, killed by the militants.
Singh’s family claimed that he was repairing a car tyre when he was overpowered and forced to drive ahead by the terrorists, who were hiding near the T-point.

Meanwhile, sources said that combing the thick forested areas within the air base is turning out to be a herculean task. There are few buildings in the area, other than a deserted workshop and some empty hangars. “The combing operations continued through the night, but – considering that there are militants around – we have to be very cautious to ensure that our men are not hunted down,” a top police officer said.

The officer said that the firing was confined to the same general area where the other four terrorists were killed. “The good news is – the time lapse between the firing is increasing, which means they are running short of ammunition. It is only a matter of time before we win the battle,” he added.
Security agencies halted the combing operation late in the night to prevent chances of their personnel incurring further casualties, stating that it would be resumed at first light. They said the operation would be deemed complete only after the bodies of the terrorists are recovered.

Did the taxi driver killers then car jack the SP car? Can some one look up all these places on Google maps and post here?

[Pranay]

With the attack on the Pathankot AFB and the nearly simultaneous ongoing attack on the Indian Consulate in Mazar-e-Sharif in Afghanistan - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35216950

The Pakistani Army has fired a couple of shots across the bow of the Indian state and has upped the ante.

Talk all you need - but simultaneously inflict a very painful, visible and immediate blow on some of the actors orchestrating this. JEM/LET leadership, DI location, etc etc...

[ManSingh]

kenop, Tell me more about NJS. We are ignoring a major thing here. If NJS is last point on the border what was the SP doing there?

I think the SP carjack story is all hogwash.
The SP went to pick up the perpetrators who he thought were usual drug smugglers. Meanwhile at 3:00 AM the 'drug smugglers' turned out to be terrorists and dumped him. Didn't kill him as he was a compromised asset.

Man Singh and SBajwa please what are your thoughts?

SunilUpa could very well be as its now clear there were two teams. We are looking for single explanation to the events.

So taxi hijack is another team.

RV?

Not sure. I kind of generally belong to this area but have never been beyond mukerian. Following is what I can add:

1) Most people think drugs in Punjab come from across the border. This is not true.

2) There was a crackdown in these areas of Punjab 2-3 years back. Hence, most drugs used are synthetic. The local word is that most are manufactured locally in Punjab and Himachal with connivance with bigwig politicians.

3) Blaming pakistan is an alibi used by those in power to protect their turf and business. Also it allows blame to be shifted to BSF.

4) People of the area are very well aware who is responsible for punjab's drugs i.e. local politicians. But speaking out means that you are labelled a Khalistani, congressi etc. This has led political affiliations to shift from Akali's/Congress to AAP in a big way. AAP will do very well in this area in the coming elections. BJP has a chance provided they breakaway from the Akali's. The youth are very very angry.

5) As for the SP's story: From my knowledge of the working of Punjab Police, I would believe the SP. It is unlikely an SP rank would directly involve himself with drug muling. Human couriers/gangs are available for such work in Punjab. Besides why would he inform his seniors afterwards. A lot of people visit dera's in early morning, so there is nothing wrong here. Besides generally in PP, SP rank does not have much security with him. Maybe just one car and two gunmen. Also he was not someone involved in field duty, so he might not have had any gunmen.

6) For general security in this area: It depends. Sometimes it is very very tight. I remember as a kid when we used to travel by bus on this route, the bus would be stopped in at least 3-4 places and all luggage searched thoroughly. There used to be many barriers on these roads. Not sure what is the situation now. Also on special occasions like Diwali etc, public transport buses, trucks etc are stopped from operating on the Pathankot-Jalandhar route 2 evenings in advance for security reasons. This happens even now. But nonetheless, the area is remote and there are so many different routes, back alleys to reach a destination that absolute security is impossible especially in 14 hours notice. We must remember, Punjab has the highest road density in the country where even village roads can be 4 lane highways.

[ramana]

ManSingh thanks for the perspective.

[A_Gupta]

ManSingh, what is in Talur/Taloor village, which is where the SP visited some shrine?

[ashish raval]

What worries me that pukes can activate their sleepers in India at its will and we really do not have a security apparatus for either intelligence or defending key installations. It needs a massive overhaul. Looks like we are a decade behind in this thanks to blind and deaf UPA rule.

[Vivek K]

It is easy to blame the UPA but this is now a crucial test for Modi and Parrikar. Are they going the ABV and MMS way or will there be a change in India's posture? Will India grow b$lls and avenge her bravehearts or will we simply wait for the next Martyrdoms?

[ManSingh]

ManSingh, what is in Talur/Taloor village, which is where the SP visited some shrine?

Don't know. Internet search says "Mazaar of a saint". This would mean the grave of a sufi muslim.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/pat ... 40886.html

As it was New year eve, my friend SP Salwinder Singh suggested that I come along and pay obeisance at the mazaar of a saint in village Kolian in Narot Jaimal Singh block close to the border

[fanne]

In 1965 TSP attacked India in J&K. They had well prepared plan. They in fact made good gains in chamb section. Indians were asked to show balls. There was egging from arm chair experts to retaliate in JK. That is what most power had gamed. The outcome was that India will loose if they counterattacked in JK. You needed 7:1 ratio to win war in the mountains. Ijjat ka sawal tha. India choose its own battlefield, its own response, not the one that enemy wanted, or its armchair advocated. It attacked in Lahore sector and effectively won the war. Now only if the GOI/IA of that day would have listen to all those breast beating arm chair warriors, we may live with ignominy of loosing the war.

[SBajwa]

Ramana, my cousin who was DA of Gurdaspur retired few years ago and migrated to USA. He was thoroughly disgusted with the nexus of politicians, big industrialists and mafia that was dumping drugs in all border districts. Amritsar _ Gurdaspur are all drugs. You can get a gm of opium(much of it is fake) for 20 rupees.

[A_Gupta]

^^^ AFAIK, Kolian was where the SP was carjacked. Talur/Taloor was where he either visited a saint's mausoleum or else met a "self-styled godman".

[ramana]

A_Gupta, both might have happened.

First visit to talur to meet godman.
then halt at Kolian while coming back from talur.
Carjacked in Kolian near the mazar.

[pratik]

This situation does make us angry. But i believe this is not the time to create more problems by attacking pakistan. Instead...

First put our house in order..

- Reduce the population . So that it can come down to managable level. One child policy for atleast Decade.
- Clean the mess of J&K indian pigs, Punjabi drug dealers, Gujarat-Rajashthan-Maharashtra etc smugglers and so called underworld dons etc etc.
- Build offensive weapons and use it regularly without worrying too much for any reactions .
- Decentralisation of power . Each armed force commander shall have freedom to take approrpriate decisions while keeping Indian interest in centre. I do not believe in Babus sitting in Delhi understands that the need of Sikkim or Gujarat for example.

We are not living in an ideal world and also in a time of KALIYUG ..... India has to behave like a Gangster if it wants all the respect and attention of others.

I hope Indian armed forces will not bog down in bureaucracy and wait for babu orders to punish the enemies .

[pratik]

Temporary Solution which will work for sure...

Automatic mechanism to Suspend the Indus Water Treaty (1-year after every cross border attack)

Effect: Paki Army will fall in line for good relations and clean all those madarsa's which is feeding piglitants (Lets use this word now on @BR, Today it comes to my mind so pls add it to your dictionary as well).

[sum]

What worries me that pukes can activate their sleepers in India at its will and we really do not have a security apparatus for either intelligence or defending key installations. It needs a massive overhaul. Looks like we are a decade behind in this thanks to blind and deaf UPA rule.

More than anything, this seems to be the key takeaway about how the TSP-ians seem to have fully infiltrated all over Desh and can turn on/off any level of attacks with a flick of a switch.

They managed such a huge op within just 7 days ( of NaMo visiting TSP) means that they have no shortage of assets and cells ready to do their bidding in a moment's notice.

[Shameek]

^^Also obvious during each situation is the lack of any kind of discipline from the media and in some cases those speaking to the media. Inevitably there end up being conflicting reports and misinformation that end up presenting those putting their lives on the line in a bad light. Even before the operation has concluded there are 'discussions' on how the strategy was wrong and how it should have been handled!

[A_Gupta]

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... s-surface/

EVEN AS fighting between a Jaish-e-Muhammad assault team and security force personnel at the Indian Air Force (IAF) base in Pathankot stretched through a second day, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has appointed a three-member committee to investigate how six Jaish terrorists succeeded in penetrating the facility in spite of intelligence warnings that an attack was imminent.

The investigation begins amid questions raised by the operations which stretched on for more than 24 hours after Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh congratulated security forces “for successfully neutralising all the five terrorists”.

Home Secretary Rajiv Mehrishi said on Sunday that two terrorists were still thought to be hidden in the base, in addition to four shot dead on Saturday.

Imaging equipment on an IAF reconnaissance helicopter, a source familiar with the operation said, first detected possible terrorist movement at around 4 am on Saturday to the north-west of the runway. The area adjoins Air Force housing, where over 100 families live and where there is a school run for the children of personnel.

Patrols from the Defence Security Corps (DSC), a base-protection organisation drawn from retired army personnel, were sent out to investigate the report, leading to fire contact in which three members of the force lost their lives.

Two more unarmed troops of the DSC, were shot dead next to the lavatory in the security force’s mess, just a few hundred metres from an area where combat aircraft were parked, sources familiar with the operation said. An IAF commando lost his life in this second phase of fighting.

Following the early exchange of fire, troops present at the base focussed on sealing off routes towards the north-west and south-east, in an effort to ensure the terrorists would not be able to move towards the Air Force housing, or pens where the base’s MiG21 jets, attack helicopters, and surface-to-air missile batteries are housed.

Later, further casualties followed when National Security Guard (NSG) officer, Lieutenant Colonel Niranjan Kumar, was killed while attempting to move the body of a terrorist, who had improvised an explosive device under his own body in his last minutes, by lying down on a live grenade.

“In many other countries,” an NSG officer said, “this is a task that would be done by robots, or personnel using highly specialised bomb-disposal equipment. That kind of equipment was not available with us.”

IAF officials say that although intelligence warnings were available on the attack, the aging personnel of the DSC, many in their 50s, were ill-trained to respond to the assault. “The force has never trained for this sort of situation,” a senior IAF officer admitted. “It’s basically meant to guard installations, not deal with a terrorist attack”.

Even though terrorists have successfully attacked several Pakistan Air Force bases in recent years, taking advantage of poor perimeter security, Pathankot had not installed electronic perimeter surveillance systems, further complicating the task of watching out for an intrusion.

“The terrorists basically seemed to have jumped the wall and entered the base,” a senior Punjab Police official told The Indian Express. “There’s just no way they could have watched the entire perimeter in spite of the intelligence warnings,” he said.

Local military officials also said that while NSG personnel were brought into Pathankot late on Friday night, on National Security Advisor Ajit Doval’s orders, there was no clarity on the chain of command and mandate. Late on Friday, Air Force officials jostled with the Indian Army for control of the operation, requiring high-level intervention, which finally granted command to the NSG.

etc. etc.
- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... f98G9.dpuf

IMO -- Indians often make up for organizational and infrastructural deficiencies with personal courage and personal excellence. But it can require great sacrifice. And it does not scale -- by which I mean that as problems grow larger, personal good qualities cannot make up for organizational and infrastructural lacunae. I'll simply assert that they deserve better.

India may not be able to control Pakistan. But having top-notch everything, that is within India's control and within India's ability. India is not a poor country; it is a poorly run country; and the many uncelebrated great people of the country deserve much, much better. I hope this Modi sarkar realizes just how much work it has to do.

[srai]

Few observations:

• Official vehicles -> don't seem to be traceable through radio/GPS locators?
• Chain of command/Communication channel -> information to roadblocks not conveyed to check for X-official vehicle? Slow reaction through various agencies; too many agencies involved with no clear authority?
• Unofficial use of Official vehicles -> used for private "shrine" visit by three individuals
• suspicious circumstances -> convienently at the right place to be carjacked and its three occupants escape death after being captured
• Lack equipment -> no bulletproof jackets; not many night vision or thermal equipment for search parties; no bomb disposal RV? Automated airbase ground sensors?
• Information Leak -> too many info leaks during on-going operation
• Vunerable AFS -> thick forest with bushes within the airbase; confusion still on containment; imagine the scale of damage if enemy SF teams make a raid as part of their pre-emptive strike

[chanakyaa]

(Google Map) Bamiyan/NJS

Did terrorists behind Pathankot strike take drug cartel's route?

[Vivek K]

So MMS's response (or no response) may have been prudent as per fanne and Pratik. Pratik's solution would have one wait for 2-3 decades before deciding.

[pratik]

Facebook account of a terrorist. https://www.facebook.com/people/Imran-K ... 0457111911
This guy has also putup a message on JeM facebook wall that he wanted to join them.

NIA, RAW, IB; Pls add this guy to your database.

[pratik]

So MMS's response (or no response) may have been prudent as per fanne and Pratik. Pratik's solution would have one wait for 2-3 decades before deciding.

Vivekbhai, My temporary solution can work from tomorrow if indian political parties have guts.

Temporary Solution which will work for sure...

Automatic mechanism to Suspend the Indus Water Treaty (1-year after every cross border attack)

Effect: Paki Army will fall in line for good relations and clean all those madarsa's which is feeding piglitants (Lets use this word now on @BR, Today it comes to my mind so pls add it to your dictionary as well).

[Screambowl]

Malda, Mazar e sharif and Pathankot.

The Bakis have hit India covertly.

[shiv]

Perhaps we should use chemicals to incapacitate atleast one porki and get him alive.

Need to locate him accurately first. No reliable chemicals exist for this, but other methods can be used,

[pratik]

Stop the water and Rat will come out.

[fanne]

Nope my response is not MMS response. The retaliation does not have to be another TSPAF base, or even suar hafeez. Take out 10 TSPA, or their known sympathizer or active personnel in Afg, Thailand, Nepal ....or within TSP itself, or 10 high value target in India that we know and they know (easiest) or vote against something that will hurt them, maybe an IMF loan 9if we have that can of leverage), or close some barrage and deny water if that hurts them, or just light up some sector of yellow see. Be unpredictable. For each of us, we will at least take one and adjust upwards for rank and importance. And yes if we have a chance to take some high ranking suar, yes do it.

[Yagnasri]

As you are aware I am located in India. There was serious public anger here yesterday. Tv channels are full of news about attacks. It is something like a Mumbai attacks. People now start seeing it as another backstabbing by Pakis like Kargil.

NM may be looked as being foolish. Paid media will make sure of it. There is no reason for NM or any Indian leader now to spend their time and effort to engage pakis.

With this counsel attack, it is certain that pakis will not change and the Phatankot is not a one off action by non-state actors. Earlier Afghan attacks are largely ignored by Indian media. But this may not be. The choice of Mazare Sharif is also significant as it is in the heart of northern areas wherein we have good public relations etc.

[Shreeman]

Perhaps we should use chemicals to incapacitate atleast one porki and get him alive.

Need to locate him accurately first. No reliable chemicals exist for this, but other methods can be used,

shiv,

While incapacitating a closed space filled with hostages without the takers realizing the event is difficult, this is not that situation. Of course chemicals exist. Yes, you do have to locate the target first.

One questions what you do with a turd, if you do pluck it out of a toilet. Didnt the judicial execution of the last one lead to rallies?