Pathankot AirForce base under attack

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jan 2016 17:11

Watched Arun Jaitley press conf 60 seconds ago.

When I watched Obama (also Bush and Reagan earlier) after an attack, watching a Brit PM, watching a French PM I saw passion and anger and a warning that the attackers will have to pay.

With Jaitley - total disappointment. No passion. No anger. If I had the sound turned down his demeanour and his body language might have been him talking about a new tax that is proposed or the measures taken to reduce loss of power transmission by increasing efficiency. Even Paki jernails speak with anger and firmness and say that someone will pay. But not our leaders

This is a total sell out. I have not heard one leader say with passion and anger that the perpetrators will be punished. Indian governments are up to something that I do not understand. Maybe it is true that we have been warned by powers like the US to keep our hands off Pakistan. Only that can explain this funereal calm and soporific tone.

In order to comfort myself (cry myself to sleep?) I have to imagine that something is coming. But that has gone on so long that I know that my tears will be dry tomorrow, but we will bow before Pakistan. Not giving in, but simply giving up

member_29190 · Post by **member_29190** » 04 Jan 2016 17:26

You expect lyutens dweller to shed tears and show anger for dead natives?

Isn't one of the reason there was hue and cry for 26/11 because Taj hotel was attacked? Did any one shed tears for 50+ who were killed in the railyway station? or 200+ in the train blast?

Isn't the symbol on 26/11 stil the Taj Hotel?

Salman khan was lampooned for telling the telling the same thing on Pak tv. He is a bollywood type usless fella, but it is one thing I agree with him.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jan 2016 17:33

NewsX says more terrorists holed up "at air base"

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jan 2016 17:36

WTF? Looks like these cowardly rats didn't anticipate a serious fight on their hands and went to ground in different places and when cornered are now reacting.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jan 2016 17:37

israel has a very short problem area in the west bank and instead of e-fencing and such has paid the cost of a gigantic concrete wall. this might not be viable due to terrain and cost over 100s of km of border. even khan despite periodic noises and money has not really fenced the mehico border much.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 04 Jan 2016 17:38

shiv saar, probably we haven't seen an instance of calmness leading to action so far, hence the dejection. Hopefully this is the first time, the fire and brimstone is in the action, not words or emotion.

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 04 Jan 2016 17:43

2 More.... these guys have turned our air base into a pig sty...

Ideally Night would be great for recon with IR sensors. Am sure the pigs know how to mask their heat sig to hide. Seem well trained to do all this.

There was not too much in the way of words before the border crossing into Myanmar...... mebe Pak needs to be reminded that we dont think much of them either...... (wish)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Jan 2016 17:44

Screambowl wrote:as posted in previous posts by other members.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/u ... epage=true
United Jihad Council claims responsibility for Pathankot attack

Now that the UJC has claimed responsibility for the terror act and it operates from Pakistani soil, India must demand extradition of Syed Salahuddin who roams around there, who is an Indian citizen after all and who heads the UJC that owned up to terror act. Otherwise, we threaten to declare war on Pakistan.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jan 2016 17:48

If not for the DSC ambush at the cook house causing the bulk of casualties, this attack by Pakistan would have (relatively) been a spectacular failure. Kudos to the NSG and IA, IAF SF for reacting so promptly and forcing these scumbags into hunkering down as versus attacking the AF high profile assets.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Jan 2016 17:49

The UJC does not have the wherewithal to operate like this. Its name is being used for two reasons by the ISI, to hide PA's involvement and to claim that this was related to Kashmiri freedom movement (the usual story of how the unresolved Kashmiri issue is destabilizing and how Kashmir is a nuclear flashpoint etc). This is clearly a well-orchestrated Nawaz Sharif-Raheel Sharif operation. Just as Kargil was by Nawaz Sharif & Musharraf.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 04 Jan 2016 18:01

TOI: Pathankot attack: Two more terrorists spotted, gunbattle continues

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jan 2016 18:04

SSridhar

FWIW Minhaz Merchant makes the same point.
http://www.dailyo.in/politics/pakistan- ... /8262.html

A coordinated attack on a forward Indian air force base spread over 1,600 acres cannot take place without the absolute involvement of the Pakistani army and the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

It's equally obvious that when Prime Minister Narendra Modi dropped by to meet Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in Lahore on December 25 planning for the Pathankot terror strike was well under way. Significantly, Sharif almost certainly knew about the planned attack even as he walked hand in hand with Modi at his opulent home on the outskirts of Lahore.

............

Fact 1: The Pathankot strike was planned months ago, well before the new comprehensive dialogue was formalised recently by external affairs minister Sushma Swaraj in Islamabad. Pakistan follows the good cop-bad cop policy. The Nawaz Sharif government plays good cop, engaging with India, piously condemning terror attacks on Indian targets, promising action against the perpetrators, politely asking for evidence, and then doing nothing about it.

Meanwhile, Pakistan's army and ISI clinically plan attacks on India targets with their terrorist proxies: the Laskhar-e-Toiba (LeT) and Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM). The attacks are designed to be lethal enough to damage key Indian assets but not lethal enough to compel New Delhi to break off talks or launch a retaliatory attack on Pakistan's terror infrastructure across the border.
.................

But Pakistan knows that Indian outrage is often shortlived. In a week, it will be business as usual as the two foreign secretaries continue with plans to meet in Islamabad on January 14-15 as part of the new comprehensive dialogue. For Pakistan, if these talks do go ahead, it will be mission accomplished. It would have successfully given India a bloody nose and shown the world that a handful of terrorists can occupy an Indian air force base for days. The Nawaz Sharif government will deny complicity and insist the dialogue process continue to discuss the root cause of terrorism.

This time though, Pakistan may have overplayed its hand. We will soon know.
.................

One, following an attack India can downgrade diplomatic relations with Pakistan. Recall our high commissioner in Islamabad. Tell Pakistan's high commissioner in Delhi to pack his bags. Downgrade the Pakistani high commission to consular status. (Saudi Arabia severed diplomatic relations with Iran on January 3 following the execution of a respected Shia cleric by Riyadh and a retaliatory attack on the Saudi embassy in Tehran.) Talks can meanwhile continue at consular level but Pakistan's diplomatic downgrade will send an important message to both Islamabad and the international community: terror carries a price.

Two, impose calibrated economic sanctions. After the Modi-Sharif meeting in Lahore, Pakistan wants more trade with India not less. Following Pathankot, give them less trade. It will pinch Pakistan's fragile economy and have no impact on India's.

Three, covert operations. Hit Pakistan quietly but consistently where it hurts most by using proxies. India's covert capability is poor but mercenaries (Baloch, Pashtuns and others) are available on hire. We must use them behind enemy lines to inflict proportionate damage with surgical precision on Pakistani terror assets - with plausible deniability. National Security Advisor Ajit Doval knows exactly what to do.
............

The Pathankot strike has shades of the Mumbai 26/11 attack that killed 166 people and took years of planning. Pathankot clearly was meticulously planned months ago. The air base, spread over 1,600 acres, has over 1,500 families in residence. Securing their safety was paramount. Hence the slow pace of combing operations to neutralise the remaining two terrorists. All physical assets in the air base - aircraft, helicopters and avionics equipment -were secured early in the attack.

To summarise: India must engage with Pakistan - there is no long-term substitute for talks. But the level of engagement can be downgraded. When terror from Pakistani soil strikes, India must punish it: diplomatically, economically and covertly. Pakistani proxies today attack India with impunity knowing India will outrage but eventually do nothing.

That comfort level must end. For every terror attack there must be relaliatory action - covert and overt - along the three measures outlined above, taken together or individually, depending on the scale and nature of the terror strike.

Screambowl · Post by **Screambowl** » 04 Jan 2016 18:07

SSridhar wrote:The UJC does not have the wherewithal to operate like this. Its name is being used for two reasons by the ISI, to hide PA's involvement and to claim that this was related to Kashmiri freedom movement (the usual story of how the unresolved Kashmiri issue is destabilizing and how Kashmir is a nuclear flashpoint etc). This is clearly a well-orchestrated Nawaz Sharif-Raheel Sharif operation. Just as Kargil was by Nawaz Sharif & Musharraf.

True.
As UJC itself consist of 12 groups , LeT is one of them. Just to give it an Indian grown domestic violence, ISI has made him(Syed Salahuddin) the chief.

SSridhar wrote: Now that the UJC has claimed responsibility for the terror act and it operates from Pakistani soil, India must demand extradition of Syed Salahuddin who roams around there, who is an Indian citizen after all and who heads the UJC that owned up to terror act. Otherwise, we threaten to declare war on Pakistan.

Demand extradition and same time invest in raising outfits in POK against Sunni administration.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Jan 2016 18:14

Colonel Shukla makes some pertinent points in his latest oped. Unfortunately he is not perceived as unbiased.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 562_1.html

....

By good luck, India’s intelligence agencies were forewarned on Friday, the day before the attack, by telephone calls the terrorists foolishly made to Pakistan. This intelligence, which went straight up to the NSA, provided precious hours to beef up security at potential terrorist targets – a list headed by the Pathankot Air Base. The means for this were readily available from the nearby Pathankot cantonment, India’s biggest, which houses two infantry divisions and two armoured brigades (over 50,000 troops). Yet, when the NSA met the army chief on Friday, he asked for only two columns of soldiers (some 50 troops). Intent on directly controlling what he anticipated would be a walk in the park, and without anticipating that there might be more than one group of terrorists, Mr Doval led with his trump card --- he ordered 150-160 National Security Guard (NSG) troopers to be flown down immediately from New Delhi. The army was placed on the side-lines.

In effect, knowing that armed terrorists were prowling the vicinity, the NSA left the Pathankot Air Base in the hands of Defence Security Corps (DSC) jawans; a handful of air force Garud commandos; and the NSG contingent. The DSC, composed of retired military veterans well past their prime, can hardly repulse a well-equipped and motivated terrorist suicide squad. The NSG is not a first responder, and is neither trained nor equipped to protect sprawling air bases; it is meant for pinpoint operations like hostage rescue or flushing out terrorists holed up in a house. As for the Garuds, even the air force has not been able to adequately clarify what they are meant for. The army, which flushes militants out of large forests every day in Jammu & Kashmir, was given a peripheral role. Only when things started going wrong was the army asked for more troops. Although six army columns (150 soldiers) were eventually deployed, it was never in command of the operations.

It is revealing that not a single Pathankot casualty is from the army. The hapless DSC jawans took most of the casualties. The NSG took unacceptable losses, including an officer killed from a booby-trapped terrorist body. The army knows this ploy well and approaches terrorist bodies in J&K with caution, knowing the jihadi’s dying act could have been to activate a grenade and lie on it.

But in New Delhi, the flawed initial allocation of resources set the stage for further bumbling. Eager to crown Mr Doval with credit, even before the operation was done his cultivated troupe of journalist cheerleaders began tweeting his brilliance. A sample tweet: “Ajit Doval take a bow. Superb counter action, moved NSG on Fri(day) brilliant synergy…”. Another: “Hats off to those in nat(ional) security/int(elligence) op(eration)s/military/Punjab pol(ice) who haven’t winked in past 24 hours to exterminate the vermin 4rm (from) across.”

Perhaps taken in by this drivel, which was being corroborated by credit-seeking air force commanders on the ground, top political leaders joined the premature victory chorus. Home Minister Rajnath Singh tweeted at 6.50 pm on Saturday: “The nation is proud of its brave security forces who have always rose (sic) to the occasion. I salute our forces on successful operation in P’kot (Pathankot)”. At 9 pm, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar joined him in saluting the martyrs. At 10.05 pm on Saturday, the prime minister tweeted with finality: “In Pathankot today, our security forces once again demonstrated their valour. I salute their sacrifice.”

It took just a few bursts of terrorist fire in Pathankot on Sunday morning for these sonorous statesmen to be unmasked as national security amateurs. Stepping in to explain the continuing casualties that day, Home Secretary Rajiv Mehrishi – clearly a votary of the police tradition of throwing troopers into action without training or equipment – declared the Pathankot attack was not a security lapse, because “when weapons are in use, [a] few security personnel are bound to be injured.”
....

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 04 Jan 2016 18:17

i am hoping (probably against hope) that Modi will address the country after the armed forces officially declare the operation over. If not for anything else, and this is the cynic in me saying, he must act to atleast gain some political traction within his core constituency.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jan 2016 18:17

Shukla's relation in the national herald case. Enough said. NSA may have made errors but his proactive hndling needs to be appreciated. However this Kangress sycophant Shukla is seeking to pin the blame on him & the AF. In years past, Shukla has batted for the Pakistani POV as well. He is as much part of the problem, and reflective of how our media acts like a force multiplier for India's opponents thanks to their tendency to play politics over national interests.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 04 Jan 2016 18:23

NSG already has a decent split of SAG/SRG. SRG should be reformed and honed for asset protection duties. Tis is a waste to use SRG for VIP duties. They should be last line of defence at every air base, naval & army installtion. A platoon size force at all such key assets is a must. With DSC pulling regular guarding, QRT and & 1st line commando duty. DSC QRT needs to actively patrol the perimeters with heavily armored vehicles and weapons while DSC's own commando unit pulling combing & clearing ops.

All bases should make it a norm to drill atleast bi-mointhly to use NSG SRG troopers to try and infil the base and DSC countering. These drills need to be extensive and need to be practised often.

SRG should be compromised of deputees from QRT/commando units of BSF/ITBP/CRPF/CISF/Cobra. These guys already have plenty of training in defense tactics, with enhanced NSG training they could be a formidable force.

Every base needs atleast a battallion strength of DSC including support vehicles, IED disposal robots, some armored vehicles with .50 cal HMGs, 30mm Auto-cannons, automatic grenade launchers. A battllion of around 800 troops should have atleast a company strength force for QRT duties and a platoon size force commmando trained.

We need systems like this for better awareness around key assets (links below). We need to place orders for thousands of these under make in India. These will allow for better all around visibility & easy management of threats. These need to be deployed at borders, key sites and some units should be able to deploy very light portable versions of it during ops for on-the-go survailance.

http://www.iai.co.il/2013/36563-34558-en/ELTA - Systems by Product Lines.aspx

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/3/41423.pdf

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/0/36840.pdf

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/6/41426.pdf

http://www.iai.co.il/2013/36563-43354-en/ELTA - Systems by Product Lines.aspx

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/1/38011.pdf

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Jan 2016 18:32

So basically, since Doval hasn't sat in a T-72, his views on National Security are invalid and only Shuklajee is an all knowing Shaheen.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 04 Jan 2016 18:36

^^
The SAG of the NSG are taken from the Indian Army. So it is wrong to say that NSG do not know to react to the terror attacks and are only good at hostage rescue. In-fact if you see the structure of the SAG, it is optimized for anti terror ops having small groups of men.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Jan 2016 18:38

Karan M wrote:WTF? Looks like these cowardly rats didn't anticipate a serious fight on their hands and went to ground in different places and when cornered are now reacting.

They might have been waiting to ambush senior military officers and politicians visiting the site soon after the first "four" were taken care off. I can only guess that the four terrorists released the SP after carjacking his vehicle to spread a false impression they were the only ones. Indian security forces took that bait! The other cells were probably organized to sneak in and wait for afterwards when stand down happens and dignitaries take tour of the sites. They did that in Kashmir, albeit unplanned, and almost killed couple of generals in the process. This time it may have been the main goal.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 04 Jan 2016 18:40

shiv wrote:Watched Arun Jaitley press conf 60 seconds ago.

When I watched Obama (also Bush and Reagan earlier) after an attack, watching a Brit PM, watching a French PM I saw passion and anger and a warning that the attackers will have to pay.

With Jaitley - total disappointment. No passion. No anger. If I had the sound turned down his demeanour and his body language might have been him talking about a new tax that is proposed or the measures taken to reduce loss of power transmission by increasing efficiency. Even Paki jernails speak with anger and firmness and say that someone will pay. But not our leaders

Don't blame Jaitley. His reactions are caused by the water they drink in the North Block.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 04 Jan 2016 18:40

2 more pigs sighted !! fight is on...

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Jan 2016 18:42

My god, how many Pakroaches are there? I thought it was just announced that all 6 had been killed.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 04 Jan 2016 18:47

shiv wrote:Watched Arun Jaitley press conf 60 seconds ago.

When I watched Obama (also Bush and Reagan earlier) after an attack, watching a Brit PM, watching a French PM I saw passion and anger and a warning that the attackers will have to pay.

With Jaitley - total disappointment. No passion. No anger. If I had the sound turned down his demeanour and his body language might have been him talking about a new tax that is proposed or the measures taken to reduce loss of power transmission by increasing efficiency. Even Paki jernails speak with anger and firmness and say that someone will pay. But not our leaders

This is a total sell out. I have not heard one leader say with passion and anger that the perpetrators will be punished. Indian governments are up to something that I do not understand. Maybe it is true that we have been warned by powers like the US to keep our hands off Pakistan. Only that can explain this funereal calm and soporific tone.

In order to comfort myself (cry myself to sleep?) I have to imagine that something is coming. But that has gone on so long that I know that my tears will be dry tomorrow, but we will bow before Pakistan. Not giving in, but simply giving up

Shiv, We met at the KGA a few months back. (Rajan of the 1965 Kalaikunda witness fame)

I have been a lurker here for ages, just signed in to day.
To thank you for encapsulating the emotions which reflect mine to a T>
Also to apologize. I copy pasted your above post onto fb. Did mention that it is authored by a friend. I am sporry, if I took any liberties. But you said it so damn well.
Thank you

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Jan 2016 18:48

Pathankot at this time of the year has to be near or below freezing. If a Paki is out in the cold hiding amongst the foliage, he has to be such a huge red blob on any thermal imaging device. Don't we have drones equipped with IR cameras to scan the area?

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 04 Jan 2016 18:51

Ardeshir wrote:Pathankot at this time of the year has to be near or below freezing. If a Paki is out in the cold hiding amongst the foliage, he has to be such a huge red blob on any thermal imaging device. Don't we have drones equipped with IR cameras to scan the area?

apparently they were holed up inside buildings. Also, we do not know if this is a fresh batch

habal · Post by **habal** » 04 Jan 2016 18:53

shiv wrote:Watched Arun Jaitley press conf 60 seconds ago.

When I watched Obama (also Bush and Reagan earlier) after an attack, watching a Brit PM, watching a French PM I saw passion and anger and a warning that the attackers will have to pay.

With Jaitley - total disappointment. No passion. No anger. If I had the sound turned down his demeanour and his body language might have been him talking about a new tax that is proposed or the measures taken to reduce loss of power transmission by increasing efficiency. Even Paki jernails speak with anger and firmness and say that someone will pay. But not our leaders

This is a total sell out. I have not heard one leader say with passion and anger that the perpetrators will be punished. Indian governments are up to something that I do not understand. Maybe it is true that we have been warned by powers like the US to keep our hands off Pakistan. Only that can explain this funereal calm and soporific tone.

In order to comfort myself (cry myself to sleep?) I have to imagine that something is coming. But that has gone on so long that I know that my tears will be dry tomorrow, but we will bow before Pakistan. Not giving in, but simply giving up

I have just one point to make.

We have to allow leaders to display leadership. We as a forum also make an impact in this. Now, since this forum is majoritarian right-wing nationalist and forum members opinion is considered to be jingo opinion. This jingo opinion is shared in some aspect by entire right-wing organisations across India. Any leader can play it safe by saying that I am not going down that route, because that route is taken by some countrymen who want to settle scores with Pakistan and I am not going there. But I am doing this, this & this as response ... which may be covert and may only be shared in NSC and MI & 'international community' (read spies) but rest have to settle at his word without any overt symbols of retaliation.

So our noise, instead of enabling the Prime Minister actually gives him a safety route and acts as an escape valve for him to portray himself as a dove in front of international community.

I think we should not utter a word, let him make the harsh decisions and let him take ownership of his decisions. In our clamour for retaliation, he will feel that we will share in the glory of his decisions and he will not be the only one sitting pretty if it succeeds. But if something goes wrong, everyone will blame him, or past leadership. Our Noise will unwittingly help in making Modi petty, our stoic silence will help him firm his resolve, if he has one. But we have allow him that leadership space, since I feel he is genuine about doing certain things.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 04 Jan 2016 18:53

Ardeshir wrote:My god, how many Pakroaches are there? I thought it was just announced that all 6 had been killed.

It means the piglets came in 2 teams of size 4. One hijacked SP's car but we totally missed out the other team leading us to prematurely declare operation over, only to find the piglets still firing. 8 heavily armed attackers in two teams with handlers and co-ordinators from across the border - if not for good perimeter security, this would have been a very bad attack with severe loss of face for India. Tears of gratefulness to our braveheart soldiers who ensured that piglets failed in their soosai mission. It was heart wrenching to see the faces of the families of the fallen heroes in the media.

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 04 Jan 2016 18:55

Hindsight is always 20/20. Had the op been given to Army... things may have been diff, good diff or bad diff. The decisions taken did not seem wrong at the time when they were taken. Yes 150 NSG to secure the assets seems like the best thing to do. Garuds to secure the base also seems like the best thing to do (yes one can question... why are garuds req? the answer so far has been to secure airbases which is what they were tasked to do). It does not seem like the strategy to split into teams and attack from 2 dirs is common (not sure).

One thing that does seem is that the casualties would have been more if not for the preparations. I would have liked to see quicker spotting of pigs using tech, but prolly we will learn from this. Reaction times seem to have improved, and just having more army men at the scene may have been more risky than an advantage.

This is a well planned mission. Their actions outside the base seemed amateurish, but inside they seemed to have succeeded in hiding effectively. What seems to be the case is that ISI has a list of scenerio's planned to be activated at any time. When Modi visited Lahore, the wheels were set in motion to play out this one as it does not need high levels of preparation across the border. Short trek to the base with all your equipment, no prolonged travel, no need to blend in with the civilians. Just hop across the border, may be refresh and do namaz at a friend's sty and attack. Modi should visit Lahore in a weeks time again and then within a week attack them before they can......

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 04 Jan 2016 18:58

kvraghav wrote:^^
The SAG of the NSG are taken from the Indian Army. So it is wrong to say that NSG do not know to react to the terror attacks and are only good at hostage rescue. In-fact if you see the structure of the SAG, it is optimized for anti terror ops having small groups of men.

Saar, they may be from army but the point is that this situation would have been better handled by SF or even RR who deal with this kind of vermin regularly.

Regularly NSG training is more CQB than terrain warfare with ambush etc.

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 04 Jan 2016 18:58

manjgu wrote:2 more pigs sighted !! fight is on...

Is it pathankot operation or Afghan?

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Jan 2016 19:02

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 562_1.html

...
As for the Garuds, even the air force has not been able to adequately clarify what they are meant for.
...

Garuds did their primary job, which is to protect vital assets from destruction. They form the inner security ring while DSC the peripheral. Beyond that in offensive roles they would act as forward air-controllers lasing targets, destroying radar sites and valuable assets on the ground at enemy airbases. They are also there for combat search and rescue of downed pilots.

Anyone know how many Garuds are typically allocated to airbases? Planned raising were for around 4000 troops and given over 100 IAF installations spread across the country, their distribution may be platoon size (~30 troops) in most cases. For large airbases close to border or strategic in nature, one would expect at least a company strength (100+) deployment.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 04 Jan 2016 19:03

PTK. Habal ji u r right but justice should be done and also appear to have been done. its important for self respect of a nation and its people.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jan 2016 19:04

SidSom, the mission may have been well planned but these jokers lost their nerve and hid. Its not part of some super plan IMHO. The pattern repeated in 26/11. Even though they have been trained enough & some may have been combat experienced (eg booby trapping bodies) the 26/11 incident also showed that when our troops entered the scene and put the pressure on, these guys refused to engage in constant combat and sought isolated portions of the hotels to hole up in.

They lost their nerve. Looks like the initial phase runs on euphoria drugs and adrenalin. Once the initial rush of jihad against the infidels wears up, and they realize they are up against professionals who are hunting them, they seek to run & hunker down. Once cornered they will fight to the death, partly in panic because they have been thoroughly brainwashed their is no other choice.

In 26/11, the NSG were surprised that despite the firepower they directed at the rats in the Taj, they were still alive. Then they figured out these guys had the advantage of a huge pillar behind which they were sheltering. But in the meantime, they were screaming and begging whilst still firing at the NSG. Sheer panic driven actions. Similarly in Trident, after initial exchanges of fire, they went to ground in some of the rooms instead of seeking contact and trying to attack more civilians.

In short, the fedayeen mythos is overblown. They may be brainwashed to be suicide attackers. But how they fight, is still driven by their fear and lack of actual soldiering. As one IA soldier told me ages ago, come what may, the IA soldier is trained to react. Courage becomes 2nd nature. These guys OTOH are short duration batteries running on "dutch courage" of drugs and religious indoctrination.

raghava · Post by **raghava** » 04 Jan 2016 19:05

http://www.firstpost.com/india/pathanko ... 70138.html

Just in - by Lt Gen (Retd) P. C. Katoch

Please read it in full - He has raised some pretty serious questions.

some excerpts...

The Pathankot strike was planned in the same manner as the 26/11 Mumbai terror strikes by the ISI, with the former lot trained by Pakistani Marines and this time the Special Services Group

Why have we permitted ourselves to be subjected to Pakistan’s “thousand cut” policy? The answer perhaps lies in what veteran Research & Analysis Wing (R&AW) officers have been hinting in their writings for some time; that sections of our polity are perhaps under ISI blackmail having used hawala, who have been advocating a soft approach or, should we say, a policy of drift. In addition, some of our media houses appear aligned or bribed by the ISI and this is not only about giving out explicit operational details during terror strikes that are of advantage to the Pakistani handlers during the operation and to the ISI in the long run.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 04 Jan 2016 19:07

shiv wrote:Watched Arun Jaitley press conf 60 seconds ago.

When I watched Obama (also Bush and Reagan earlier) after an attack, watching a Brit PM, watching a French PM I saw passion and anger and a warning that the attackers will have to pay.

With Jaitley - total disappointment. No passion. No anger. If I had the sound turned down his demeanour and his body language might have been him talking about a new tax that is proposed or the measures taken to reduce loss of power transmission by increasing efficiency. Even Paki jernails speak with anger and firmness and say that someone will pay. But not our leaders

This is a total sell out. I have not heard one leader say with passion and anger that the perpetrators will be punished. Indian governments are up to something that I do not understand. Maybe it is true that we have been warned by powers like the US to keep our hands off Pakistan. Only that can explain this funereal calm and soporific tone.

In order to comfort myself (cry myself to sleep?) I have to imagine that something is coming. But that has gone on so long that I know that my tears will be dry tomorrow, but we will bow before Pakistan. Not giving in, but simply giving up

<OT>I still think Modi and Doval have steel in them. I hope that this will show in the days to come.

But at the risk of sounding like a pompous, know-it-all jerkoff, and at the risk of being halaled by the mods for whining,Shivji we are discovering what I have had the misfortune to personally see as a small fry and bystander for a while.

There are some men and women in this government who have the steel, and as a group they are a very decent lot.

But many of the others, especially the more famous ones, the 'luminaries' for example who always promise to give a "befitting reply" are the same as the oily, spineless, self serving b@stards from the INC who preceded them. And they would be a lot worse were it not for Modi's hold over them. </OT>

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 04 Jan 2016 19:11

Parrikar has practically disappeared and Doval has taken over the defense ministry.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 04 Jan 2016 19:18

Why have you fallen behind? asks Pakistan handler to 2nd group of Pathankot terrorists

Date published: Monday, 4 January 2016 - 7:14pm IST | Place: New Delhi | Agency: PTI
Verma, whose throat was slit but survived, told his interrogators that he had heard the four terrorists, who boarded the vehicle after hijacking it, talking to their handlers, believed to be in Pakistan.

The terrorists who attacked the IAF base in Pathankot came in groups of four and two and the bigger group was ticked off by their Pakistani handler as to why they have fallen behind in reaching the target when their accomplices had already entered the complex.

Official sources while giving this information today said two gunmen from the group of six Pakistani terrorists might have entered Pathankot air base in Punjab before a state Police SP was kidnapped by them and much before an alert was sounded about their presence in the area. There is "high probability" that at least two terrorists have entered the Indian Air Force base before Punjab Police SP Salwinder Singh, his jeweller friend Rajesh Verma and Singh's cook was kidnapped along with an SUV on December 31, the sources said.

Verma, whose throat was slit but survived, told his interrogators that he had heard the four terrorists, who boarded the vehicle after hijacking it, talking to their handlers, believed to be in Pakistan. The handler apparently ticked off the four terrorists saying why they could not enter the air base as two other terrorists have already reached the target to carry out the attack last Saturday. The four terrorists told their handlers that they were on their way but could not reach the base as there were several police pickets on the way, according to details of investigations.

There is also possibility of these four terrorists entered the Pathankot air base in the morning of January 1, much before an alarm was sounded in the area to secure all vital installations later in the evening of that day, sources said. The hijacked vehicle was also found near the air base. Crucial hours were lost in verifying the Punjab Police SP's claims that he was kidnapped along with two others by the terrorists.

Sources said that police officers whom the SP had informed about the terrorists initially did not take him seriously due to his "dubious past", thus leading to some crucial hours being lost. Sources said that immediately after the alarm was sounded, security at all vital installations, including the Pathankot air base, was enhanced to the highest level to make it difficult for the terrorists to mount an attack. Security agencies believe there were six terrorists and they were divided into two groups -- one of 4 and the other with 2 members.

The top security brass of the government knew by January one that Pathankot air base would be the target of the terrorists, who were still at large and steps were taken immediately to beef up security.

First priority for the government was to secure the assets parked in the technical area and a NSG team comprising about 160 commandos was dispatched and they were deployed along with other special forces to guard the assets in the inner periphery

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 04 Jan 2016 19:18

abhijitm wrote:Parrikar has practically disappeared and Doval has taken over the defense ministry.

How did you find this out?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 04 Jan 2016 19:20

habal wrote:
shiv wrote:Watched Arun Jaitley press conf 60 seconds ago.

When I watched Obama (also Bush and Reagan earlier) after an attack, watching a Brit PM, watching a French PM I saw passion and anger and a warning that the attackers will have to pay.

With Jaitley - total disappointment. No passion. No anger. If I had the sound turned down his demeanour and his body language might have been him talking about a new tax that is proposed or the measures taken to reduce loss of power transmission by increasing efficiency. Even Paki jernails speak with anger and firmness and say that someone will pay. But not our leaders

This is a total sell out. I have not heard one leader say with passion and anger that the perpetrators will be punished. Indian governments are up to something that I do not understand. Maybe it is true that we have been warned by powers like the US to keep our hands off Pakistan. Only that can explain this funereal calm and soporific tone.

In order to comfort myself (cry myself to sleep?) I have to imagine that something is coming. But that has gone on so long that I know that my tears will be dry tomorrow, but we will bow before Pakistan. Not giving in, but simply giving up
I have just one point to make.

We have to allow leaders to display leadership. We as a forum also make an impact in this. Now, since this forum is majoritarian right-wing nationalist and forum members opinion is considered to be jingo opinion. This jingo opinion is shared in some aspect by entire right-wing organisations across India. Any leader can play it safe by saying that I am not going down that route, because that route is taken by some countrymen who want to settle scores with Pakistan and I am not going there. But I am doing this, this & this as response ... which may be covert and may only be shared in NSC and MI & 'international community' (read spies) but rest have to settle at his word without any overt symbols of retaliation.

So our noise, instead of enabling the Prime Minister actually gives him a safety route and acts as an escape valve for him to portray himself as a dove in front of international community.

I think we should not utter a word, let him make the harsh decisions and let him take ownership of his decisions. In our clamour for retaliation, he will feel that we will share in the glory of his decisions and he will not be the only one sitting pretty if it succeeds. But if something goes wrong, everyone will blame him, or past leadership. Our Noise will unwittingly help in making Modi petty, our stoic silence will help him firm his resolve, if he has one. But we have allow him that leadership space, since I feel he is genuine about doing certain things.

Habalji, Namaskar. You use the term "leaders" There is an irony to it.
When our polity has reached a stage, (and I AM NOT TAKING SIDES), where the opposition drags down the ruling Govt. so they cannot implement a plan which enhances their reputation, and which cries likes babies when they are paid back in the same coin.

But I digress. Let us remember the martyrs of the Parliament attack, of Kargil, of the continuing lack of basic stuff like bullet proof vests, of.... oh hell. I am emotional because today my feelings are with the families who have lost their loved ones. Of cold start and Operations Brasstacks.
Of sheer idiocy!