Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Jan 2016 07:31

ramana wrote:No Cold Start being enabled.

Pray, Explain

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 28 Jan 2016 07:07

Stage Set for User Trials of Akash Missile from Today

BALASORE: A series of user trials of surface-to-air supersonic Akash missile system will be carried out from a defence test facility off the Odisha coast from Thursday. Reliable sources said, the tests will be conducted from launching complex-III of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) in Chandipur, about 15 km from here. The indigenously developed missile air defence system has been produced by Bharat Electronics Ltd. “A couple of tests has been planned on Thursday and Friday. The tests assume significance as those would be first in the series after the induction of the missile in the armed forces - Army and Air Force,” said a defence official.

Akash is a mobile, multiple- target handling and medium range air defence missile developed under Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). After years of rejection, allegedly for faults in the missile system, the Army had agreed to accept the modified version of the missile, which was formally inducted in the Army on May 5 last year. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had handed over the missile to the Air Force on July 10. Along with 13 DRDO laboratories, 19 public sector units, five ordinance factories, three national laboratories and six academic institutions, Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) successfully partnered with more than 265 private industries across the country to produce Akash.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2016 03:01

This is big. HEMRL has put out a tender for Casting and Handling fixtures for main motor of MPATGM.

Meanwhile, more tenders on NGARM are out, like theassembly of empty warheads.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 29 Jan 2016 07:59

indranilroy wrote:This is big. HEMRL has put out a tender for Casting and Handling fixtures for main motor of MPATGM.

Meanwhile, more tenders on NGARM are out, like theassembly of empty warheads.

Is that the MPATGM DRDO is doing as a JV with BDL? Mentioned in http://bdl.ap.nic.in/MediaRelease.pdf.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Jan 2016 08:23

indranilroy wrote:This is big. HEMRL has put out a tender for Casting and Handling fixtures for main motor of MPATGM.

Meanwhile, more tenders on NGARM are out, like theassembly of empty warheads.

If DRDO is working on a MP-ATGM with some definite timeline, then it would makes sense to NOT induct Spike on a large scale. Or, not induct it at all. With MP-ATGM, DRDO should also be working on ATGM to be fired from BMP-2 or FICV. This is one area where we should be having a whole family of domestic ATGM and remove foreign dependence once and for all.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2016 09:23

I am a little confused over the MP-ATGM, CLGM and Amogha-1 programs. ADE was developing CLGM. Is BDL the production agency, and Amogha-1 the final product name? If yes, what is the significance of the numeral 1? Is MP-ATGM a different project based on Nag for a fire-and-forget missile?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Jan 2016 10:56

Indranil: CLGM is laser guided. MP-ATGM will most likely be a fire & forget type missile. Don't know about Amogha-1

I've always wondered why we don't mate CLGM with LCH/Rudra as a cheap jihadi-hunting missile (like Hellfire)

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2016 11:38

It will be. It is in the plan. But the first ones are land to land, because that need is more critical at the moment.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 31 Jan 2016 18:41

http://m.ibnlive.com/news/india/india-s ... 96093.html

Akash missile test fired 3 days ago. I think we missed it.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 01 Feb 2016 11:39

DRDO Gears up for Canister Launch of Agni-V
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 255695.ece

BALASORE: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is preparing for the second canisterised launch of India’s most potent home-grown surface-to-surface nuclear capable missile Agni-V. Sources said preparations have begun at the Abdul Kalam Island test facility for the test scheduled in the last week of February. As the missile has to traverse across the Indian Ocean, all logistic issues are to be fixed prior to the launch. The missile has a strike range of more than 5,000 km, the longest one in the arsenal.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Feb 2016 16:25

Is there any book/website/any other resource which gives good overview on Indian missiles - types, history, development etc - suitable for UPSC studies??

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 01 Feb 2016 16:32

^^^ Janes/IHS publications are quite detailed about a program: its genesis, development history, tech specs etc. Usually most defence PSU have a subscription to Janes publications.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 01 Feb 2016 19:04

Posting a news on US/ UK spying on Israeli missile development programmes and UAV programmes as I believe it has a direct bearing on the systems we have bought from Israel.

https://www.rt.com/news/330850-nsa-gchq-spying-israel/

Israel missile program also spied on by NSA, GCHQ under Operation Anarchist – report
Published time: 1 Feb, 2016 11:43

A spy operation conducted by the NSA and Britain's GCHQ tapped into Israel's missile interception program, according to local media. Earlier the same operation was found to have hacked into videos from Israeli drones and fighter jets.
The joint US-UK operation, referred to as 'Anarchist,' gathered information on Israel's Black Sparrow missile project, part of its Arrow missile interception program, according to Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper.

The Black Sparrow missile is air-launched from a plane, usually an F-15 fighter jet, before accelerating away to become a target for anti-missile systems to track and intercept.

Surveillance of the missile, which has been used in tests of the Arrow and Magic Wand defense system, was a secondary task of Anarchist, and was code-named 'Runway’, according to the newspaper. {So what was the primary task?}

It remains unclear how the NSA and GCHQ obtained the data, or whether it was taken directly from intercepted transmissions during Black Sparrow flights.

Black Sparrow is produced by Israel's Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, in cooperation with US defense firm Raytheon.

It comes just three days after it was revealed that the two agencies had been spying on Israel's air force operations for at least 18 years – information that was reportedly gleaned from documents made public by National Security Agency (NSA) whistleblower Edward Snowden.

Over the course of those years, the US and UK managed to crack the Israel Defense Forces' (IDF) special encryption system for communication between fighter jets, drones and army bases. The two nations reportedly used that access to keep tabs on IDF operations in Gaza, watch for a possible Israeli strike on Iran, and monitor the drone technology that Israel exports.

An Israeli security source described the breach as “an earthquake...the worst leak in the history of Israeli intelligence,” the Times of Israel reported.

The tracking was completed from the UK's Royal Air Force installation in the Troodos Mountains, near Mount Olympus, on the island of Cyprus, according to the Intercept.

A 2008 GCHQ report called the acquired access into Israeli intelligence “indispensable for maintaining an understanding of Israeli military training and operations and thus an insight to possible future developments in the region,” adding that it was “critical” in “times of crisis.”

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Feb 2016 19:21

^^

British I can understand, but why US? In this case system is jointly developed with Raytheon. Why they would spy on them self.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Feb 2016 19:21

nileshjr wrote:Is there any book/website/any other resource which gives good overview on Indian missiles - types, history, development etc - suitable for UPSC studies??

Most western sources will have ASLV was the first missile kind of information. They will keep putting out useless junk reports as usual. So better look for some Indian sources.
On Agni and some of the Indian missiles.
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/auth ... shwakarma/

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Feb 2016 19:29

Sid wrote:^^
British I can understand, but why US? In this case system is jointly developed with Raytheon. Why they would spy on them self.

In Cooperation never means Israel shared all the technologies involved. The worrying aspect is the large number of Israeli UAV's operated by us and the kind of Intelligence they gained from it. Possibly must have all information about what and all we are monitoring using these UAV's. That's why it's always said that Indigenous technology is better.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Feb 2016 20:36

uddu wrote:
Sid wrote:^^
British I can understand, but why US? In this case system is jointly developed with Raytheon. Why they would spy on them self.
In Cooperation never means Israel shared all the technologies involved. The worrying aspect is the large number of Israeli UAV's operated by us and the kind of Intelligence they gained from it. Possibly must have all information about what and all we are monitoring using these UAV's. That's why it's always said that Indigenous technology is better.

A report on same subject states that feeds from even F-16s were hacked, giving them birds eye view from pilots cockpit during bombing runs. If I am not wrong they use Link16 data link, standard across NATO members, on their F-16 too. Which means they cracked their own untouchable Link16.

Damage entirely depends on what was actually hacked, a single data-link type or some Israeli data-link which will effect all of their customers.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 01 Feb 2016 20:41

^^^ I may be wrong but IIRC, Israeli's have a Hebrew encryption over every mil software.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Feb 2016 21:04

^^but then they won't be operate alongside other NATO birds, specially US AWACs in the region.

Data link is the same, but encryption keys are different. Maybe they got hold of these keys or the way these keys are generated.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Feb 2016 21:18

Link 16 has a custom set of encryption that each use can incorporate (and they do), and there are also common handshake protocols and standards for interoperability.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 01 Feb 2016 22:49

That's why it's always said that Indigenous technology is better.

And also to keep every indigenous tech developed in proper condition within MIC so that it can be used if needed, as a whole or in parts as building block somewhere else.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Feb 2016 22:57

brar, if you will do that it will make your data-link incompatible with others as they won't be able to decrypt it.

To work with others your encryption "type" needs to be same. Encryption device, which are custom to users, is used to generate encryption keys. Here is a good link from Grumman.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... orking.pdf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Feb 2016 22:57

The unknown entity in this whole thing is the encryption algo , Israel must have used their own proprietary algorithm with Link 16 which they managed to hack into , There were earlier news of NSA hacking into Israel PM communication.

Uncle SAM must be keen to know not only what they sell to Israel but also what Israel does with it.

Any ways the moral of the story for India is to use its own Hardware and SW/Algo for encryption using own processor and other hardware stuff , that would make enemy job more difficult if not impossible. Using any kind of Phoren HW or Encryption makes us vulnerable to hack attack or backdoors in HW or SW. Something Snowden leak showed it with Commercial systems

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2016 04:02

With MIRV features each missile can be capable of carrying two to 10 separate nuclear warheads and each warhead can be assigned to a different target, hundreds of kms away from each other and alternatively, two or more warheads can be assigned to one target.

Developed by the DRDO, the intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) Agni-V can target all of Asia and parts of Africa and Europe. It is part of the Agni series of missiles developed under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP). The three-stage, 17-metre tall, two-metre wide Agni-V, weighing 50 tonnes, is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead of about 1.5 tonnes. Capable of destroying enemy satellites, this missile flies at a speed of Mach 24

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 255695.ece

so essentially we can home on 10 targets be it space or Earth.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 02 Feb 2016 07:48

Still haven't covered North America nor is there any news on hydrogen bombs which are more important.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Feb 2016 11:12

A report on same subject states that feeds from even F-16s were hacked, giving them birds eye view from pilots cockpit during bombing runs. If I am not wrong they use Link16 data link, standard across NATO members, on their F-16 too. Which means they cracked their own untouchable Link16.

Dont forget that Last year there were reports of the Russians hacking into an American Drone over Ukraine and Crashing it. Dont think LInk16 (or any equivalent) is that Sacred

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Feb 2016 19:23

Does it really matter? Everyone, by now, must have a program to hack into everything others do. So, that one nation hacked into some other nation's stuff should never come as a surprise. Part of the game, been there for ages.

India did start up an encryption group - want to say - a few years ago. I would expect India to replace all foreign components with her own. But then it only means another encryption to hack into.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Feb 2016 19:37

rkhanna wrote:
A report on same subject states that feeds from even F-16s were hacked, giving them birds eye view from pilots cockpit during bombing runs. If I am not wrong they use Link16 data link, standard across NATO members, on their F-16 too. Which means they cracked their own untouchable Link16.
Dont forget that Last year there were reports of the Russians hacking into an American Drone over Ukraine and Crashing it. Dont think LInk16 (or any equivalent) is that Sacred

You don't have to break into something to bring it down. You can disrupt it, and that disruption need not be limited to a data-link. Most disruptions against UAV's involve disrupting communications both LOS and NLOS (Satcom) and hardening for that requires more money than the cheap drones possess. A global Hawk or Triron is hardened an old reaper may not have that level of system protection.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Feb 2016 19:53

the iranians also managed to bring down a classified x-plane drone..maybe they jammed enough signal to trigger a automatic recovery mode wherein it glided to a soft landing right into the arms of the cats.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Feb 2016 20:52

Folks how did US-UK hacking into Israel become part of this thread?

Please show some restraint.
thanks, ramana

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Feb 2016 20:57

SaiK wrote:
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 255695.ece

--------------------------
BALASORE: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is preparing for the second canisterised launch of India’s most potent home-grown surface-to-surface nuclear capable missile Agni-V. Sources said preparations have begun at the Abdul Kalam Island test facility for the test scheduled in the last week of February. As the missile has to traverse across the Indian Ocean, all logistic issues are to be fixed prior to the launch. The missile has a strike range of more than 5,000 km, the longest one in the arsenal.

A defence official associated with the mission said since Agni-V is a complex system and the attempt is to fire it from a canister, scientists are on the job to achieve greater accuracy.

“The missile will be fired from the confines of its canister, a hermetically-sealed airtight container mounted on a road-mobile Tatra truck,” he said.

According to DRDO, the missile is among the best in its class in the world with its advanced ring-laser gyros, composite rocket motors and highly accurate micro-navigation systems and inertial navigation systems.

As Agni-V incorporates advanced technologies involving ring laser gyroscope and accelerometer for navigation and guidance, its accuracy level is far higher than 700-km range Agni-I, 2,000-km range Agni-II and 3,000-km range Agni-III.

The canister-launch system will give the armed forces the requisite operational flexibility to promptly transport the ballistic missile and launch it from a place of their choice. The DRDO is also working on the canister version of other Agni series of missiles including Agni-I, Agni-III and Agni-IV, the official informed.

So far three tests of Agni-V, including one canister version, have been conducted. The missile will be inducted in the armed forces after two to three more tests. “The next focus will be more on multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs) and manoeuvring warheads to defeat enemy ballistic missile defence systems,” said a DRDO scientist.

With MIRV features each missile can be capable of carrying two to 10 separate nuclear warheads and each warhead can be assigned to a different target, hundreds of kms away from each other and alternatively, two or more warheads can be assigned to one target.

Developed by the DRDO, the intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) Agni-V can target all of Asia and parts of Africa and Europe. It is part of the Agni series of missiles developed under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP). The three-stage, 17-metre tall, two-metre wide Agni-V, weighing 50 tonnes, is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead of about 1.5 tonnes. Capable of destroying enemy satellites, this missile flies at a speed of Mach 24.

-------------------------------------
So two-three more tests before induction.
Then MIRV follow on
Then anti-sat capability.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 02 Feb 2016 21:30

Long overdue test, previous one was in Jan 2015. It was supposed to be inducted this year per last years announcement.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 02 Feb 2016 23:06

Is it me or has the pace of missile testing slowed to a crawl ever since the Avinash Chander mishandling? Hope all is well inside DRDO

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 03 Feb 2016 03:25

Indeed missile testing has slowed to pre-2012 levels since the Avinash Chander fiasco. Also, the current GoI seems to be reluctant to give a full speed ahead to the missile program just like their predecessors. It was a wrong decision to put DRDO in charge of someone from outside the missile cluster. Strategic missiles should be the DRDO's most important program.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 03 Feb 2016 08:09

Vipul wrote:Long overdue test, previous one was in Jan 2015. It was supposed to be inducted this year per last years announcement.

Friends-Nothing to do with any specific Individual. The System has to be fine tuned based on the Parameters read/witnessed earlier. New Systems are to incorporated whenever new tests are Planned. Just for Force Projection systems which were used in 2013, 14 & 15 would not be used. I am sure all will agree.

Further, This is for a 2nd time canister launch is being exercised and there are other factors which affect the launch.

Jai Hind!!!

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 03 Feb 2016 08:55

This long gap between tests, introducing new systems in each test etc makes it look like a perennial research/tech. demo project rather than a system that is to be deployed. In the second case, one freezes design after three or so succesful tests and makes a couple of more tests to certify the fixed design within a span of 8-12 months. Then onto full scale production. For some reason GoI is holding back on all this. No K-4 test since 2014. Looks like some GUBO to the west is on.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Feb 2016 14:03

I suspect (and hope) that the February test of Agni-V is a MIRVd test.

In May 2013, the DRDO Chief, Dr. V.K.Saraswat said that MIRV was at a design stage and another test of Agni-V, without MIRV, would be done later that year. I interpret that as meaning that the test after that would be MIRVd. The design effort had started in 2012 itself. In Sep. 2013 there was a successful launch. The next one was two years later in December 2015 and it was the first canister launch. The canister launch itself was slated for c. 2013. Therefore I expect the next evolution in Agni-V, namely MIRV in this test.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 03 Feb 2016 14:13

Sometimes changes are required depending on operational objectives. Perhaps the operational objectives were revised/clarified after previous tests.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 03 Feb 2016 15:24

Each test gives additional information that needs to be dealt with. Also each test does not give the terminal event information. Re,eber what happened wrt both Bo5 and K4 tests - actual results and number of tests were declared much later.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2016 17:46

has K4 ever been officially tested at all? I recall no pic