LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 28 Feb 2016 00:36

tsarkar wrote:
maitya wrote:For Astra etc (2) is not an issue - while (1) is not an issue as most probably it's hybrid-version of the 2032 (or maybe we have been provided access to the AA algorithms or atleast the API itself).

For R77 etc it's a huge issue, as Russians wouldn't part with the (2) details above (as will be the case with any foreign BVR AAM). For Derby, it's not an issue anyway as both Radar and the missile belongs to the same manufacturing unit etc.
Good Post, Maitya

The only radar for which we’ve ToT and source code is Bars. Its manufactured at HAL Hyderabad. Which is why Astra is tested on Su-30MKI, because we have the source codes.

The Russians developed Bars using Indian funding, and since no other sales was forthcoming (Algeria, Malaysia sales were much later), they actually did the ToT.
<snip>

I thought the BARS RCs were designed/developed by LRDE (or was it DARE?) as a part of project Vetrivale. Integrating a RC wouldn't be possible without very very deep sharing of almost all aspects of Transmit-Receive paths and their control.

Either that, or we did develop the h/w and shared the microcode wth the Russians so that they can implement the required A-A/A-G algorithms on it and integrate it.

Whatever, but it's good to know that we have full control/access to the BARS algorithms - now that is one deep ToT that way.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Feb 2016 03:59

Sid wrote:^^
I don't think we have that level of data linking in IAF fleet. Navy yes, but not IAF.

well.. let us see how our three LCA Tejas in 'HOT_READY' + 1 stand-by participate in Iron Fist 2016 assumingly on a net-centric mission.

python and derby sure to fire along with the adder vympels, stick and tandem bombings in "swing role".

Mark your calendar : March 18

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Feb 2016 04:08

Maitya, we just supplied the HW, am not sure whether code access was part of it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Feb 2016 18:24

^we can see the movements of chia seeds who might be interested how the vel got integrated vetri or tholvi.

measure: the more they intercepted and interfered in knowledge sharing, the more we have gained integration brownie points. after all, that is a huge market to sell weapons for unkill on russkie platforms.

they will seek out coop in DTTI slowly and try to place a hand. The same reason why the khans are interested in Israeli tech.

I think it is a dare-bare integration!

take-away: the more DRDO does similar projects with the khans using DTTI, we become next Israel or better to both the soupah pawahs

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 28 Feb 2016 18:44

And tomorrow will be 1 year 1 month since SP1 delivery, awaiting SP2 delivery and about 10 months since last SP2 delivery timeline was announced by Parrikar ji himself (I think March 2015 was promised). Salute HAL.

IAF is probably happy that because of late delivery they rather might get FOC configuration sort SP's, probably sniffing more Rafale orders or F-18/Gripens and HAL is happy with 'Chalta Hai' attitude. Jab Miya Biwi Raazi to Kya Karega Kaazi (Modi).

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 28 Feb 2016 18:49

nirav wrote:
ashthor wrote:IAF to induct 8 squadrons 'Tejas' in 8 years: Manohar Parrikar

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
The math is a bit confusing.

@16/yr is still being established.

8 squads @ 18 per squad = 144. Order intent meanwhile is for 120 and intended capacity @ 16/yr.

DM spoke of second line @ HAL, not private sector.
It makes sense if squad is 16 ac and not 18.

The order for 1st 20 is for IOC config Aircraft

then there was order for 20 for FOC config tejas

then 100 for tejas Mk1a aircraft

now it is not confirmed by the

order stands at

20 IOC / FOC cinfig aircraft - Tejas Mk1
100 Tejas Mk1a

now it may take upto 18 months to 2 years to increase capacity to 16 per year

remember that tajs Mk1a is being worked upon will get ready in 1-1.5-2 years

by the time the capacity reaches 16 per year (1.5-2 years)
the production of Tejas Mk1 will be over (20 Nos)
the Tejas Mk1 is expected to ready

so actually this is a well laid plan (or Best laid plan)

that when the Tejas Mk1a is ready it will immideately go into production at the the rate of 16/ year - with all production setup and vendors - the suplly chain ready

and

it will give 6 years to mfg tejas Mk1a at 16/year = 96 in 6 years
ans Tejas Mk1 20
so total comes to around 116 quite close to 120

of course these are all paper yet

but HAL gets two years to work out teething problems in mfg and production rampup while only being concerned with producing 20 Tejas Mk1 in 3 years time frame ( considering fro last year)

and with Manohar Parriker whatever bitching & snagging by IAF is expected to be brushed aside (but worked upon) so no doubts over that quarter

ans who knows 3-4 years down the line we may see some imporvements and also third mfg line taking the capacity to 24/year with more orders

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 28 Feb 2016 18:55

Sid wrote:HAL/ADA are prepping 3 LCAs for Iron first next month. I think that's gonna delay Derby/Python certification.

article says they will fire Python and also demo Multiple ejector racks

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Feb 2016 21:30

Parrikar’s statement in LS inspires Team Tejas

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 28 Feb 2016 21:52

^^ From the article:

“Today all our jigs are full and we have got back on track. We have a clear picture of till SP-8 as we speak to you. ......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... s-1.895410

A photo would be nice to have. 8 jigs full of LCAs under assembly

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Feb 2016 03:33

we need 8 jigs per year growth up to 3 years, and then review needs based on concurrent plannings

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Feb 2016 03:41

JTull wrote:Parrikar’s statement in LS inspires Team Tejas

What's the max capacity of current assembly line--8 or 12? What's the max capacity planned for the new one?

Where will naval variants (8 NMk1 units) be assembled?

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Feb 2016 06:57

arshyam wrote:^^ From the article:
“Today all our jigs are full and we have got back on track. We have a clear picture of till SP-8 as we speak to you. ......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... s-1.895410
A photo would be nice to have. 8 jigs full of LCAs under assembly

8 jigs full! That would mean from this point onwards HAL would be able to deliver continuously with a certain defined time gap (either in batches of 2-to-4 (parallel lines) or at least one at a time (one sequential line)). Then start on the next set.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Feb 2016 08:02

looking at size of final assembly hall of Tejas around 10 might be max possible. question is can they deliver things in lots of 10 every six months and move another 10 into final assembly.

a airbus toulouse plant that place is not - very modest sized buildings.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Feb 2016 08:10

Do the estimates on this thread indicate that we will have 100 tejas (~6 Squadrons) in 8 years - ie, 2024? How many MiG 21 and MiG 27 squadrons will be retired by then? Ten?

We will be looking at a further reduction in IAF combat aircraft numbers by 2024 unless someone can educate me about all the calculations on this page that I do not understand.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 29 Feb 2016 09:01

Fact is that exact numbers are unclear for anybody. Engine delivery schedules (even order status) for F404 are equally unclear. I hope GE is fully in loop with cancellation of mk2 and need for F404 in these numbers now.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 29 Feb 2016 10:48

This sort of hand wringing is the result of partial disclosures and then glorification of it. SP2 is out of the jigs, ready for ground runs. That leaves SP3-10 in jigs. The question any sane person would ask is what sort of timeline to a ground run does the assembly line provide. 12 months? 18months?

Next is the promise of SPs 3-5 being handed over. Will the jigs be empty then? And if SP11-15 end up in jigs this year, then will that mean some part of the line will go idle before 1a ever arrives. 20 is not that far from 15. You can only fill the jigs less than once more before you run out of things to make. What will the second line make at this point? More mk1s?

See, none of this makes any sense from a production engineering standpoint. Cant they (the makers and the writers)make some rational statements like "it takes an average of X months to go from block to first flight at this point. we hope to reduce it to y by z time. The main challenges are x,y,z." 2 done, 6 in 16, 12 in 17. Thats 20. ONE whole, count it, look at it, bow before it, squad in 2018. Then what?

Instead, its "there are no problems, everything is great. Your suit will be ready the night of your wedding. Come for a fitting that afternoon." And then people complain when this is pointed out.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 29 Feb 2016 11:58

Singha wrote:looking at size of final assembly hall of Tejas around 10 might be max possible. question is can they deliver things in lots of 10 every six months and move another 10 into final assembly.

a airbus toulouse plant that place is not - very modest sized buildings.

Be careful what you wish for. Imagine they decide to build airbus size plant on a reclaimed belandur lake, what will happen to ORR.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Feb 2016 16:46

Shreeman wrote:This sort of hand wringing is the result of partial disclosures and then glorification of it. SP2 is out of the jigs, ready for ground runs. That leaves SP3-10 in jigs. The question any sane person would ask is what sort of timeline to a ground run does the assembly line provide. 12 months? 18months?

Next is the promise of SPs 3-5 being handed over. Will the jigs be empty then? And if SP11-15 end up in jigs this year, then will that mean some part of the line will go idle before 1a ever arrives. 20 is not that far from 15. You can only fill the jigs less than once more before you run out of things to make. What will the second line make at this point? More mk1s?

See, none of this makes any sense from a production engineering standpoint. Cant they (the makers and the writers)make some rational statements like "it takes an average of X months to go from block to first flight at this point. we hope to reduce it to y by z time. The main challenges are x,y,z." 2 done, 6 in 16, 12 in 17. Thats 20. ONE whole, count it, look at it, bow before it, squad in 2018. Then what?

Instead, its "there are no problems, everything is great. Your suit will be ready the night of your wedding. Come for a fitting that afternoon." And then people complain when this is pointed out.

There is still a lot of questions for sure. Another thing to point out is assembly of various components are in the process of being outsourced to the likes of L&T (wings), etc. So it remains to be seen how smoothly the final assembly line runs (or continues to run).

You are right in pointing out production gap between Mk.1 and Mk.1A. If the HAL and its partners continue to gear up to produce at full capacity, the production of first lot of 20 Mk.1 will end within a year and half and then it will grind to a halt as the full Mk.1A specification won't be qualified until after 2018 or so. I would think the plan may be that production continues with Mk.1 specifications until Mk.1A is ready (or as parts ready it gets integrated into the production lot). Mk.1A is basically a Mk.1 with software and few avionic upgrades and some internal layout rearrangements. So this should allow most of the production activities to continue even if not all Mk.1A features are achieved by next production lot commencement. One can expect some hiccups during the transition but hope that it won't be as much of a hurdle as beginning the first lot.

On the other hand, if HAL can continue with the second lot of Mk.1 FOC standard (as originally planned ~2018) then the transition to Mk.1A from third lot onward (~2019/20) would work out much better.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Feb 2016 20:11

I think the signal/noise on Mk.1A must come from ADA rather than HAL. JMT

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Feb 2016 20:43

About LCA production: What is the rate at which we receive supplies of imported aviation grade aluminium ingots and fabric for composites? How many years will "make in India" take to kick in for these?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Feb 2016 21:53

I am currently blocked from where I am accessing this link
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... aFgHB6m1iQ

http://www.aame.in/2012/08/imported-com ... light.html
I think it has the list of items that we need for indigenous manufacturing. [just looking at chacha cache]

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 29 Feb 2016 22:21

On one hand there are light bulbs and fuel filler caps on that list. How did those come to be imported in the first place? Some scientist grade 'g' looked at a brochure and said that's a nice looking bulb?
On the other hand, it doesnt answer the raw materials question.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Feb 2016 22:26

https://www.ada.gov.in/images/ADA-IND.pdf

the list doesn't include Aluminum or Composite fiber.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2016 04:27

Shreeman wrote:On one hand there are light bulbs and fuel filler caps on that list. How did those come to be imported in the first place? Some scientist grade 'g' looked at a brochure and said that's a nice looking bulb?
On the other hand, it doesnt answer the raw materials question.

Shreeman ji,

May I suggest one small assignment? To you, or anybody on BRF: find any Indian vendor who produces or is ready to produce the said bulb. All the best! You can disparage the grade G scientist all you want after that. If not ...

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 01 Mar 2016 05:05

Ofcourse no one has stopped shreemanji or anyone else from manufacturing those bulbs and fuel filler caps.

Manufacture it and stick it to the" scientist g"..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Mar 2016 07:02

Watch this video from 15 to 17 seconds. Just 2 seconds. A mysterious door opens up near the nose gear before take off. I have never noticed that before, Is this part of the "landing gear modification" that has been done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p6D9iTqKYY

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Mar 2016 07:58

Shreeman wrote:On one hand there are light bulbs and fuel filler caps on that list. How did those come to be imported in the first place? Some scientist grade 'g' looked at a brochure and said that's a nice looking bulb?
On the other hand, it doesnt answer the raw materials question.

Or no local firm agreed to produce the handful of items for LSP/SP.
In all my conversations with LCA suppliers, the SME/MSMEs kept complaining how many of their people/resources were tied to the LCA & they had no idea whether they would ultimately be rewarded for the LSP by SP orders. No surprise then that this indigenization effort comes on the lines of guaranteed Mk1 orders for 40 airframes and FOC being around the corner.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 01 Mar 2016 08:19

This has been a persistant problem. Even for Kaveri getting small quantities of alloys was a huge problem

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Mar 2016 08:24

prasannasimha wrote:This has been a persistant problem. Even for Kaveri getting small quantities of alloys was a huge problem

The other thing that we don't know about is the acquisition process. When small numbers are needed I think there is a tendering process. There may be Indian vendors willing to do small quantities at high prices, but foreign vendors who have a huge slice of the market may be willing to supply the same items at a low price along with warranties.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Mar 2016 09:09

Karan M wrote:
Shreeman wrote:On one hand there are light bulbs and fuel filler caps on that list. How did those come to be imported in the first place? Some scientist grade 'g' looked at a brochure and said that's a nice looking bulb?
On the other hand, it doesnt answer the raw materials question.
Or no local firm agreed to produce the handful of items for LSP/SP.
In all my conversations with LCA suppliers, the SME/MSMEs kept complaining how many of their people/resources were tied to the LCA & they had no idea whether they would ultimately be rewarded for the LSP by SP orders. No surprise then that this indigenization effort comes on the lines of guaranteed Mk1 orders for 40 airframes and FOC being around the corner.

Gentlemen, (and not specifically karan) it is all nice to make fun of the old shreeman ji, but have you considered that if the plane for which materials are processed from ingots (so design, development, and manufacturing are in house and no one else has a use for it) STILL uses imported bulbs, then it is highly likely that ALL bulbs for ALL planes are imported. Just like the tires.

Or you could have designed your plane for a bulb you do make.

Which is it to begin with, then we can talk building and making.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Mar 2016 09:13

The door looks like the standard two part main gear door. Was it not like this always?

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 01 Mar 2016 09:23

I thought that Tejas uses(some?) Made in India light bulbs!
http://www.fokallamps.com/defence.htm
http://www.indiamart.com/mithabhi-lamps ... lca-mirage

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Mar 2016 09:29

BharadwajV wrote:I thought that Tejas uses(some?) Made in India light bulbs!
http://www.indiamart.com/mithabhi-lamps ... lca-mirage

Check the list, there were many other bulbs there. An aircraft uses half a dozen different on/off/strobe varieties. This seems to be the bulbs attached to the main landing gear. The existence of 1 domestic bulb then defeats the designers complaint that they could not habe found domestic versions for the rest.

On the other hand its probably a strong indicator of the heritage of LCAs landing gear. Do they bear a resemblence to the mirages?

edit -- looks like just the landing light is used in LCA, and the rest DO exist domestically. Why are they on the india-genious-ing list?

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 01 Mar 2016 09:34

Saar, economies of scale?
We have less than 20 Tejas/NLCA airframes and getting imported ones might have been slightly more expensive but quicker and low risk(I assume, of course).
DRDO can do ToT for desi MICs for future manufacture of such equipment for a larger order.
Given more time (10-15 Years) we will see the full scope of the LCA project in helping the desi MICs to be up and running.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Mar 2016 09:57

What's wrong with imported bulbs? Imported bulbs used to be hip.. pfst...what's wrong with Indians these days.

Anywho no need to go RSS on LCA now

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Mar 2016 10:33

This is NOT a point of going RSS. Nor is it related to economies of scale.

It is building an ecosystem, that is at stake. If these materials were incorporated (bulbs and all) then one less item would be held hostage to a foreign supply chain (whether tap is open or closed) and one more supplier will see additional orders of stuff they are already supplying for other craft.

Importing small quantities eg rafale works against your arguments. You pay random LARGE amounts/ransoms for small batch orders. Furrin suppliers dont holdout hope of "establishing relations". The manufacturer would have moved on from the model, connection, voltage, housing etc by the time you reorder for the next 20. A domestic supplier is beholden to the local IAS. A furrin one, it is the reverse.

Then there is this illogical ToT statement thrown in. ToT of what? Screwing the bulb in? Buying 20 bulbs froma shop does not get you the manufacturing process. What risk? The item you use in domestic operational craft is risky for use in a test craft instrumented and watched by a 100 people?

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Mar 2016 10:38

SaiK wrote:https://www.ada.gov.in/images/ADA-IND.pdf

the list doesn't include Aluminum or Composite fiber.

That list is at least 2.5 years old. Given that it mentions "Tejas has completed over 2000 flights so far and continuing system performance and evaluation towards reaching Final Operational Clearance (FOC)", we can assume that list was complied and published sometime in 2013 (likely Dec i.e. at the commencement of IOC-2 standard serial production). As of end of 2015 (Nov/Dec), LCA had completed 3000 flights.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Mar 2016 10:41

Shreeman, Would you setup a production line for 200 bulbs or maybe 2000? I disagree with your assertion that it's not related to economy of scale. Production margins are usually razor thin, reduce the numbers and unit costs will jump out of control.

Samtel is on this path because there is concrete demand and they are supplying. I am not sure but low key items like bulbs seems to be low hanging fruits which may not demand urgent attention. Specially at a time when we have bigger things to handle, like radar/engine.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Mar 2016 10:57

Sid wrote:Shreeman, Would you setup a production line for 200 bulbs or maybe 2000? I disagree with your assertion that it's not related to economy of scale. Production margins are usually razor thin, reduce the numbers and unit costs will jump out of control.

Samtel is on this path because there is concrete demand and they are supplying. I am not sure but low key items like bulbs seems to be low hanging fruits which may not demand urgent attention. Specially at a time when we have bigger things to handle, like radar/engine.

sid,

There will never be demand, because everything is imported. And these other statements are specious --margins are thin, quantity is low, blah. Then dont try to build planes. You cant make them one piece or out of paper. Indian rupee within india is just that, paper. Why are the margins, thin?

For whatever reason, domestic versions exist and are more than brochure items. Likely applied to kirans etc. Look at the link supplied. Why not design your plane around them? These instruments are relatively low technology, but their dimensions and technical requirements matter. By using a foreign model, you are forcing a new manufacturing line.

In the test plane, what difference would the domestic versions have made that it would have been inferior? Arguing that it would have been necessary to move a mountain is coming from you. I am just saying use what was already being built, bought, operated. Why use anything else to begin with?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Mar 2016 11:28

Can you please point to domestic versions that exist and can meet mil-grade and has been certified by CEMILAC or foreign military aviation agencies? You don't build plane around parts that are available domestically if the domestic ones do not meet the flight grade requirements. And many of the parts that need to go into aircraft, whether military or civilian, has to go through multiple rounds of testing and be certified by relevant certification agencies. All the parts are acquired through e-tenders, and ADA has to go through them.