Bharat Rakshak

Old Thread in Trash Can Archive.

I have not seen this thread (maybe in trash can) which deals specifically with HRT.
I tried to raise this topic in an earlier thread but got no response.
We need to develop a credible HRT team which can land in any part of India with air time + 1 hr. Plus we need to have teams ready to perform on ships and planes. This requires a lot of training.
If an Indian ship is taken hostage (a la Under Siege), then what is our response capability. Is it MARCOS? Are they trained for that particular mission?
What is another Kandahar type hijacking occurs and the plane this time lands in Burma? What would we do?
I understand that some of these units have to be secret and special but my fear is we do not have that capability.
Lets discuss about what specific capabilities we have currently (if it exists in earlier threads then please refer me to them) and how to develop threat specific capability.

This is supposedly one of the many scenarios that the NSG is supposed to handle.



Yes. Storming offshore rigs/ships are well within the capabilities of MARCOS. Although their actual deployment in a real "Siege" like situation has to deal with all the boring variables and unknowns in the real world such as maritime laws and deployment (logistics) issues. I would imagine that a situation in the North Atlantic aboard an Indian Flagged MV would more likely be resolved with chai-biskoot than armed intervention. Check out BRs excellent page on the Marcos.


[quote="Bharat"]
What is another Kandahar type hijacking occurs and the plane this time lands in Burma? What would we do?
[\quote]

Too many variables. Hypothetically, if did take place, response would be dependent on the "Who" and "Why" and whether the Generals in Rangoon would like to Tango.

If your question can be rephrased to "Can Indian units successfully storm a hijacked plane in a secured non-hostile location", the answer is a resounding Yes.

If it is "Can Indian Units stage a successful raid into a hostile bordering state with significant military assets and who are in cahoots with the hijackers", the answer is I don't know, but i would guess that its unlikely. And I also believe that the our inability, has less to do with our SF units themselves but more with the significant IAF/IN support elements needed to pull it off.

Like minded countries have signed pacts with each other in response to airliners being hijacked. During Khandhar hijacking, US Delta Group was ready to go into action at behest of Indian govt, while the plane was in UAE.

Similarily many nations have such form of pacts. India as of today is not capable of storming a plane in a foregin country. Actually no nation is. Times of Ugandan rescue by Israelis are gone.

In military terms, the Indian Armed Forces are capable of reaching the Black Sea but its not going to happen. Thus my opinion is not based on military terms but diplomatic. A simple scenerio, an Indian citizen on visit to Pakistan to see a cricket match is kidnapped by a zealot Islamic group demanding release of some die-hard foregin terrorists in Indian jails. What will the government do? Or if Indian High Commissioner is held captive?

We will have to depend on Pakistani assistance.

Your options are very limited. Thus, if an aircraft is allowed to leave your protected border than its hard to seek SF operation, simple.

I ask again before this went to trash archive, what is the strategi goal and how do SF play a role in it? Do they have the right equipment? What form of Command Structure is best suited for these units?

Delta's ready to rescue IC 814 passengers in Dubai?? Interesting. Source please.

We know there was an NSG team on standby on the plane with Jaswant in case things got out of hand. And IIRC them Talees had put up SAM to prevent Indian rescue efforts. Idi Amin forgot SAMs...if there were SAM then egress would have been a pain for the Israelis.

O Trivedi -genius of the 7 seas

When poor Daniel pearl was kidnapped, I did not see super duper US SF swoop into Pakistan and rescue him?

And they are in Puke land?

The SF doctrine is known to the Army and the people who need to know.

If they deem it necessary to let almighty trivedi know about it - then they will.

I understand the problem of having the local country supporting us for a rescue mission. But have we developed policy on we would handle it. Has the NSG evolved since the last rescue mission? If a plane lands in a foreign territory, do our embassy officials call up their counter parts and tell them that "there is an India rescue team already in air. Let us in, decide quickly ... time is of the essence".
At that time, if we start deciding on our posture we lose valuable time. Do our negotiators know on how to handle these situations?

That is policy and strategic doctrine.
As far as the actual training goes...
Does the NSG have the latest equipment? What is the main rotation policy of active-inactive teams? How much training is conducted to maintain fitness levels? How much training is done on playacting and working with scenarios? What are our sniper options? Is the NSG always based out of Delhi (remember a report saying they are near IGI airport)?
\Last picture I saw of NSG's were they were long haired. Isn't it a prereq to have all commandos with almost bald heads. Does not long hair lead to sweat and more weight which is not desired if you want to swim to a target? My knowledge of this is limited, maybe someone can enlighten us with reasons.

The Parliament attack was mainly repelled by paramilitary forces. Do we have a policy of maintaining a high level of specialized forces on hand always at Parliament, Rashtrapati Bhavan etc.. The PM's house comes under SPG protection.

What about the Crisis Management Group? Was it not constitued to co-ordinate response in similar type of siutations. If i recall i was headed by the PM or the cabinet Sec or Foregin Sec.

(Foregin Sec. as per the article below)


http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/29hostage4.htm

Sigh

Bald head!!!!!

Err how do you propose they blend inwhen they need to do some task in "mufti"???

Let me put this way - you will haveto read what is there and decide for yourself what is possible.

If you believe in silly things like bald head to reduce weight - then nobody can help you

Mr. George,

The source is "Killer Instinct" a book written by retired well known Indian General. The book will be online shortly for everyone to read. The writer has extensive background or should I say the founding fathers of Indian SF. I will keep you updated. The book was published in 2002 I believe.

Mr. Surya,

Oh the one with a wise name. This is a discussion forum. Again I stress what exactly is the role of SF strategically. I am not talking of anti-hijacking etc, rather startegic role.

For anti-hijacking etc there are plenty of para-military forces and states should have their own specialized units. Its for people to know who should know, nice Mr. Surya, I was talking about India, a democracy not some banana republic runned by a doofus general. Transparency? Isn's that the word Advani used?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Specialized units under cabinet control or PM control. What a crap. The Indian Armed Forces have a Commander In Chief, The President. The civilian control of the Armed Forces comes from the Defence Ministry, the armed wings control their units, so why the need for SF guys under PMO or anything else? Does this make sense?

You expect a cabinet to make a decision whether to use SF or not? As Mr. Surya pointed out and as I had clarified, there are times when SF is not the answer, but imagine a Laloo thinking otherwise. Fact:

During the hijacking of TWA Flight 847, US SF was stationed in Israel and was preparing a assualt, but the President was strongly advised against in by his military, not some damn cabinet croony!

And here we are talking about India, where a neta much rather have these poor guys stand in hot sun just to show how important he is. Even if his real enemy is his wife!!! Give me a break.

1] Strategic Role
2] Equipment
3] Command Structure

Trivedi

You skipped the question.

Why didn't your super duper Delta force go in and rescue Daniel Pearl??


Doctrines evolve - please do not give me the crap about open society andother grabage.

What is released is the media in the US is useless\outdated stuff.

Again whatever is needed to be released has been released. What needs to be changed is being changed.



Since you apparently read Sabharwals book, you may also seen the pix of Indian SF men with US SFpersonnel. BTW Sabharwals book itself is highly incomplete because he only talks about his unit.

Surya,
when you mean mufti .. you mean covert ops. Those guys do not remain on stand by teams for hostage recovery. They are intel guys who are trained differently.
HRT does only hostage recovery.. .They do not do cross border attacks or sabotage attacks. Also when you shave your head regularly.. the hair grows quicker. So they can grow it back quickly.

As far as weight is concerned.. when you want to go under water.. the hair comes in your eyes especially when you surface.. It is very dangerous at that time. A bandana is also tricky as it might come open at an inopportune time.

Worse is.. when you sweat, the sweat comes in your eyes again you don't that to happen when you are sniping a target.
Like I said, if you have other reasons then I would be happy to gain knowledge.
Also, as far IC 814 is concerned .. when it landed in Abu Dhabi. it did land in the US CENTCOM area and they could have Delta forces stationed there. But you cannot have a rescue mission to be carried out in a window of 2-4 hrs unless you have the strategy and policies ironed out and training to do it automatically. Which is what i am trying to get evolved in this thread. Strategy, policy, doctrine and training.
There is a level of secrecy around it.. but to say someone knows it and that should be it seems too much secrecy and ambiguity.
What we have seen is that in most cases the political power and administrative officials have little knowledge on how to apply lethal force effectively in hostage situations.

Bharat

you are mixing up too many roles

1. SF\ anti terrorist units - many have abandoned military hair cuts. Their tasks have involved going civvy. eg. SAS in Ireland, our own SF in J& K. Why do you thinkour SF\Marcos are with beards etc.?

I have seen our SF guys on swim training and trust me the hair is the least of theproblems.

2. HRT - well I really cannot thinkof a situation where an HRT team will beswimming

BTW if you are bald the sweat is going to stream down faster if anything

Mr. Surya,

I never said a Delta Mission could be carried out for Daniel Pearl. I was also emphzising the point that SF unit cannot be deployed that easily in other countries. That was the point. I saw pix of Indian SF and US SF. I am not doubting Indian SF they are excellent. I am asking the questions that Mr. Bharat has pointed out as well.

The Delta team was ready for anti-hijacking operation in UAE at IG's okay. This is a fact.

But study the IC-814 episode again and you will see some big holes in command structure. Though this is not what I am asking. The US SF has a specific role, and are trained in that manner. The Indian SF still hasn't received the same attention from the planners. What is the strategic objective? Please dont say transparency etc are crap. If these things are not brought out for discussion, there cant be any critical study. India's Cold Start was published for public and many points came out. As an example, [same problem in US and they are rectifying it] out of million standing Indian Army, how many are infantry or have dirty boots? Are arti units capable of assualting if needed? Another discussion perhaps.

Indian SF needs to be modeled for specific tasks and train for those specific tasks. Any unit that is formed is suddenly given the SF tag. Take AF's Gaurd units, what is their job? Protect of IAF assets against terrorist attacks and security, is this what Indians consider SF?

The only unit that I have considered to be SF in India is the Desert Scorpions. They are by god the most formidable arid weather fighters in the world today. They have a specific task and train to achieve those tasks.

As for the book, you fail to mention that the writer is pioneer in formation of SF units in India and the one who has forced the army to take a look at Indian SF units. He has also been extremely critical of the top brass in its failure to utilize the Indian SF.

When you see those US SF with Indian SF, the US has an edge. Their tactics are better with force mulitpliers, their gear. If Indians get those same level fields then wow. But still they require a purpose and a proper military command. Who is in command of US SF? The SF has its own Colonels, Generals who receive a task, formulate a plan and execute it.

Now I ask you a question, how can crucial decisions like when to employ SF etc be lying with PM or the Cabinet? Does that make any sense to you personally? Be realistic here.

The Indian commandos could not reach Amritsar because their negotiator was stuck in New Delhi traffic, what?!!!!!!

Why didn't punjab have elite units from its State Police at the airport? Recently a plane was forced to land in New York JFK. NYPD Special Units were first to respond, followed by the FBI Special Units with military on stand by. This is an example of purpose, training, and command structure.

Why didnt the Indian SF units contemplate the Delhi traffic or other variables and run drills everyday til they got it right? There are no excuses, simple.

On a personal note I have seen some hostile attitude towards US, why? WHats wrong if you learn from the best? Or would you have Indian SF going to Italy for training? [During Rajiv tenure].

What is released is the media in the US is useless\outdated stuff

Are you serious? I don't think so. There are many outlets that give latest info. I am not saying all is correct but there are certain things that are accurate. As an example, how do Indian soldiers holster their weapon? A study was done by US SF to see the best way to holster your weapon. Today its standard with US, its hanging on your right or left facing down. Time to grab go crouch and aim is faster then swing it from your back. You might think its useless info, but for a soldier its life saving.

I am sorry I don't agree with your statement.

Please dont take things personally. If not me listen to Bharat, he is making the same point.

The President of India is indeed the commander of the Indian Armed Forces, but for all practical purposes his position with relation to the daily running of the Armed Forces is purely a ceremonial one.

SF units are a strategic asset whose employment during peacetime could have huge international repercussions. Which is why there is significant civilian oversight over their use. In the US, the final word on their employment rests within the Pentagon, who answers to a civilian boss serving at the pleasure of his President. No general in the US can order SF units on a mission without dealing with significant red tape from civilian beuracracy who have to consider all types of political/diplomatic/legal ramifications of the order. Its a similar situation in India. The PMO is for all practical purposes, the most powerful office in the land, and the one office which can cordinate other ministries and deal with all the aspects of a possible fall out.

The Defence Ministry is indeed responsible for the day to day running of all of India's Armed Forces, but final command authority of all strategic assets must rest with PMO.

Agreed sir. Let's substitute The President of India with the Prime Minister.

SF units are a strategic asset whose employment during peacetime could have huge international repercussions. Which is why there is significant civilian oversight over their use. In the US, the final word on their employment rests within the Pentagon, who answers to a civilian boss serving at the pleasure of his President. No general in the US can order SF units on a mission without dealing with significant red tape from civilian beuracracy who have to consider all types of political/diplomatic/legal ramifications of the order.

Agreed to a certain degree. The US Generals did not start the Iraq war. But now that they are there, do they require the President's office to approve decisions? No. They go to the Pentagon, and then approved. In India, the cabinet or the PM has the final say in everything. Look at India's involvement in Sri Lanka, every decision was manipulated in PMO.

Its a similar situation in India. The PMO is for all practical purposes, the most powerful office in the land, and the one office which can cordinate other ministries and deal with all the aspects of a possible fall out.

Hard to believe. To this day there is no white paper on PMO directing RAW to literally go to war against the IPKF in Sri Lanka. I understand the civilian supremacy, but fail to understand how the PMO can direct decisions or manipulate the plan once the green signal is given.

The Defence Ministry is indeed responsible for the day to day running of all of India's Armed Forces, but final command authority of all strategic assets must rest with PMO.

Here's the catch. Once the President of US makes up his mind and tells the military to go ahead, now he lets the Pentagon make the best plan and execute it. In what you are describing above and what we have read from the papers, it the PMO and the Cabinet that has full decision making in every process. Please correct me if I am wrong. During the Kargil War or the stand-off with Pakistan after the Parliament attack, the PMO was still formulating policies regarding the plan emitting from DGMO, this is a fact again!

Oh, but you discount the fact that we are not at war. My understanding is that when war is underway, tactical command of SF units are designated to theatre commanders as and when required. Others on this forum can shed more light on this.


The PMO certainly does not micromanage how the SF runs its ops. But due to the delicate nature of these operations, there could be relatively more oversight from the PMO in certain situations. This is done to ensure that the command loop is minimised in a time critical situation. If you are insinuating that the PMO pokes its nose and tells SF commnaders how to do their jobs, I would disagree.

With regards to SL, I'm not quite sure as to what you mean by the statement that "every decision was manipulated in PMO". I have read about the serious confusion and conflicting decisions taken during the IPKF's mission and how this was essentially because of conflicting interests and lack of cordination between Army HQ and RAW. I admit that this is poor leadership but there have been plenty of turf wars between say the CIA and the Pentagon. And I also don't see how this scenario is even relevant to our discussion. In particular, I don't see the analogy between how a PMO conducted itself during a long term international multi divisional peace keeping operation executed in the 80s with a current day SF mission such as a 2006 Kandahar-like episode.

It is the PMO's perogative to evolve policies and take decisions of a strategic nature. It is the Military leadership's perogative to plan and execute actions to ensure that those decisions and policies are enforced. This is a a resonable delineation of responsibilities, and I believe that this is indeed the current arrangement. However as most complex decision making processes, these cannot occur in a mutually exclusive manner.

As has been pointed out by others in this board, as a nation, we lack in institutionalized long term strategic thinking and planning. As a result, we have frequently been caught in a position where we tend to react more than act. For this reason, our responses come across as adhoc and knee-jerk. So there is definitely a upper level defence management issue which puts additional pressure on our command hierarchy to deliver the goods in times of crises. But I still don't see that as a SF specific issue nor a reason why the PMO should be kept out of the loop for SF intervention.

For Special Forces.. there are possibly two level of active deployments.
1. Attack/sabotage which requires insertion of troops .. Well, if its a Kargil type war, then the decision lies with the local commander ( Tiger Hill).
If its a one off operation which involves a snatch job of high profile targets.. then the PMO and the cabinet has to be involved. If this will spark of a war/ increase nuclear escalation,then the PMO has to be involved in the operation. Now this does not involve getting into tactics but setting parameters for the operation. Now if the same op is carried against a nuclear installation then the risk factor goes up and higher level of involvement is required.

2. HRT: This is a high level/pressure situation. Especially with more media involved, the people would hold GoI responsible. To tell that it is a local state operation would spark of problems. Now if this is in J&K with hostage situations happening more frequently there must be a local crisis management group which must take control. Now if you say in a hijacking the PMO must take a backseat and let local commander take total control then it is a problem. In high profile ops the responsibility lies with the Cabinet and PMO. That does not mean they tell whether a rescue mission must take place or not. There must be a Special force commander who can give the probabilities of such an operation and the earliest timeline of the operation. Now when i mean special force commander, i am not saying Chief of Army staff. It has to be someone with the expertise required. What i feel is the problem is that there is no structure/policy on how to handle it. A policy does not mean the 4 politicians/4 secretaries/one defence personnel are called for chai biscuit. It means once a situation has occurred, the actual group on stand by gets ready to board the plane to take them to the area. It means they try to get as much intel as possible. Once a deploy order is given, then the group is ready with required assets to be deployed and ready to go. It invovles a high level of training . And training by which I don't mean folks who can run 5 miles/ 400 crunches/ 2 mile swim.. Its lot more than that..

gentlemen, the last two posts are brilliant. I am apprehensive about command structure the most and the role. I thank both you and others for giving great input.

I am sure decision makers are working hard on these issue, now I must go back and enjoy Mr. DHoni's dhamakas. But before leaving one last question, is there any truth in rumor that a behind the line operation was conducted by Indian SF during Kargil War? Thanks.

You know if youtalkof civilian masters contrlling decisions over the military in a democracy - guess what it happens inthe US too.

Lets see the Tora Bora fiasco where the request for more troops were denied for fear of casualties.

Unlike the US which does not care who is killed etc (at least now), in India because of our tight links with neighbours - ut us not that easy.

Whether we agree or not politicians have to look at that.

See how B Raman is mentioning that we have to becareful and watch how local muslims react to US behaviour.

The USis equally chaotic if something close by occurred. It is because they interven 10000 miles away they have to decide between SEAL, Green beret or Deltaetc.

Their present structure has evolved based on the screwups of the past. Our structure will evolve with our screw ups.

Just to nitpick a bit...the SEALS stationed aboard a USN ship were alerted(I believe by a certain US admiral Johnson) for a possible rescue mission when IC814 landed in dubai...not the delta force. Maj.Gen. OP Sabharwal's book "Killer Instinct" is a good source for previously unreleased stuff about 9 para operations(incld. Major Sudhir Kumar Walia's final battle) but not that good a source for ops done by foreign forces...also it suffers from tons of spelling mistakes I would love to see a 2nd edition of that book released.

[quote]Israel delays supply of assault rifles
By Rahul Bedi DH News Service New Delhi: March 19

The $20-million deal for the TAR 21s including ammunition, was signed in late 2002 with Israel Military Industries (IMI).

Recurring technical and bureaucratic slippages have further delayed till the end of the year the supply of around 3,000 Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) 5.56-mm Tavor 21 assault rifles (TAR-21) with 40-mm under slung grenade launchers to India’s Special Forces (SF) or para-commandos though almost four years have elapsed since the contract was signed.

The $20-million deal for the TAR 21s including ammunition, was signed in late 2002 with Israel Military Industries (IMI). But after IMI’s recent bifurcation, the assault rifles contract is now being serviced by IWI that has taken control of the small arms division.

A senior Army officer said procedural technicalities had delayed the TAR 21s’ arrival. These were earlier supposed to be delivered to the SF in September last following the resolution of problems with the under barrel grenade launchers (UBGLs). IMI’s split also contributed to the delays, the officer added declining to be named.
[b]
IMI had earlier supplied between 300-400 TRA-21s without UBGLs, for around US $1.5 million to India’s Special Frontier Force (SFF ), a “quasi-military commandoâ€

KL Trivedi,

If you want a hostage rescue team that is dedicated to the job and can get things done *very* quickly, you need a force that has the shortest possible short link to the top, which in India means the PM.

That's the only way it could get a priority on its needs (eg sufficient helicopter lift on standby) when conflicts arise, or when other parties want to poach the unit to meet the endlessly expanding manpower needs for various kinds of COIN and security duties.

You also need to make sure that it doesnt end up led by empire-building bureaucrats who are eager to taken on all kinds of other responsibilities.

The SAS and Delta can do what they do in part because they have the full weight (a very considerable force) of their governments behind them, both when it comes to planning for continencies, and responding to them. They are backed by that authority in the bureaucratic struggles in planning and preparedness. They can alert the top national leadership, or be alerted in minutes. In an actual crisis they can alert the top national leadership, or be alerted in minutes regarding administrative, diplomatic and political obstacles.

Training, equipment and planning are all vital in responding effectively to a crisis. But so is authority and short, responsive lines of communication to the top.

Hi Surya,
Well Said

Too many things went wrong during IC814 .
SEALS move up a status when something happens in their area just like our guys would in case a US airliner would be hijacked and flown to a SAARC country.
Doesnt mean that we will actually go and do the job.

OP Sabarwhal is not the last word you see.
The story of the Indian SF units is one waiting to be written.

Kapil Ji,

To which e-mail address do I send pics of my model SHAR possibily to jumpstart a IN model gallery like we have in the IAF section?

Thanks!

-Raja

Hey Raja,
Thats splendid.thanks!

Do send them to kapil at bharat hyphen rakshak dawt kawm

Boss,

E-mail massage sent abhi abhi!

-Raja

India mulls VIP security unit

The Indian government has established a committee to review VIP security issues..... According to official sources speaking on condition of anonymity, the committee will consider methods to make security "less obtrusive" and establish whether state security costs should be shared by those protected..... The government is also considering a proposal to create a permanent VIP security force.....

Not exactly on topic, but an interesting description of a Pakistani diver's experience with the SSG-N.
My first out of air incident!

From amitabhs link - this is priceless

From the above link

By roturner

ROFL

This is the best

http://starbulletin.com/2006/09/10/news/military.html


Indian Army to train at Schofield Barracks
The Indian Army is participating in its largest exercise with U.S. forces at Schofield Barracks this month, as it learns how to deal with terrorists in an urban environment. Col. Mark Zimmer, Army spokesman, said 140 soldiers from the Indian Army arrived here Sept. 1 for the month-long counter-insurgency training at Schofield Barracks mock urban village.

Also included in the exercise are 20 Guard special forces members of the Indian Air Force.

Shouldnt it be garuda forces?

I hope somebody from BR follows this link and a subsequent one that the author also includes - there are some outstanding photographs in the two - for the BR hostory and special forces pages! - with the author's permission of course.
P!

I would imagine that newer electric-powered vehicles will prove advantageous to special forces and other infantry, due to their silent operation:

http://www.gizmag.com/go/6197/

I'd always thought that newer electrically-powered vehicles would probably be heavier, due to a weight penalty incurred by the lesser efficiency of electrical energy storage or electrochemical energy conversion.

But that may not necessarily be the case. Besides, there are plenty of situations where it may be acceptable to trade off long range in exchange for stealth.

Here is a link to the ENV bike, which is a more full-sized motorbike, but powered by a hydrogen fuel cell:

http://www.envbike.com/

It too has silent electric operation. The hydrogen power unit is removable, and can be used to power other devices. New technologies like micro-reactor reformers can convert conventional fuels like propane or diesel into electricity, allowing their use for silent electrical operation:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/emergingtech/?p=363

not sure if its a repost ...link to new parachute regiment site
http://www.indianparachuteregiment.kar.nic.in/

There is a book on Lt Gen IS Gill coming out soon (currently being "vetted" by HQ). He was a member of the SAS during WW-II. He received two awards from Greece due to his performance in WW-II but the Indian Government would'nt allow it.