Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

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vina
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by vina »

ManSingh wrote: Moving to 4G and beyond means replacing the entire core network that has been in place since ever for voice calls will move to the same infrastructure as used for data. This is disruptive and a big barrier for telecom companies and so one should not expect data plans to come cheaper any time soon.
Reliance Jio is an all data network (4G LTE). Even the voice calls on that is VoLTE only. Disruptive? Exactly. Those guys have made the investments and will undercut every incumbent on data and throw in voice "Free".

Yeah, the incumbent guys NEED to move to all data networks.. etc.. but that is the way things are going. Will they need to give out free /subsidized handsets like Reliance ? Maybe. Will they do their damnest hold Reliance back, oh, absolutely. But the writing is on the wall. The are facing up to a cash rich giant behemoth, who has an infite time horizon to recover investment, is not going to put tail between legs and go away . So what are they going to do?
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by ManSingh »

vina wrote:
ManSingh wrote: Moving to 4G and beyond means replacing the entire core network that has been in place since ever for voice calls will move to the same infrastructure as used for data. This is disruptive and a big barrier for telecom companies and so one should not expect data plans to come cheaper any time soon.
Reliance Jio is an all data network (4G LTE). Even the voice calls on that is VoLTE only. Disruptive? Exactly. Those guys have made the investments and will undercut every incumbent on data and throw in voice "Free".

Yeah, the incumbent guys NEED to move to all data networks.. etc.. but that is the way things are going. Will they need to give out free /subsidized handsets like Reliance ? Maybe. Will they do their damnest hold Reliance back, oh, absolutely. But the writing is on the wall. The are facing up to a cash rich giant behemoth, who has an infite time horizon to recover investment, is not going to put tail between legs and go away . So what are they going to do?
This is hard to answer.
1) I am at a loss to figure out the necessity of 4G connections in India. Why would I buy one? As the data speed is higher, so would be the data consumption. There is no way an aam aadmi( sorry for using this term ) will be able to figure out why his data pack is getting used up so fast.and besides what fun is 4G speed without HD ( or 4K ) video streaming. Do the subsidized sets provide any such fun? :D

2) Reliance has taken a bet that they will get people to switch to 4G before they burn out of cash. In doing so, overwhelm the competition as the competition are still paying installments for 3G backend infrastructure. What if that does not happen for the next 4-5 years i.e. till 5G standards are finalized? Competition could move 3G->5G directly and skip 4G which would be a good business bet in my opinion. Remember reliance failed with CDMA earlier. ( I know that 3g->4G is a bigger leap than 4G->5G ).

3) Its not east to hold them back. There is an interesting story I heard from a manager in a North American telecom firm who in his then role provided the hardware for their previous telecom avatar. Gist of the story was: Keep quiet even if it means loosing money for the NA company. Biggie is a very powerful man in India.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Yagnasri »

ROI has not taken the bet. Banks did. 50k Cr already lent and 30k Cr under process. Wait till it get messed up.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by shiv »

ManSingh wrote: besides what fun is 4G speed without HD ( or 4K ) video streaming. Do the subsidized sets provide any such fun? :D
My personal view is that HD is overrated especially when viewed on small screens and what is going to count is "user experience". I am guessing that in the US, 3G networks seamlessly streamed video to the max extent that 3G is capable of providing. But in India those same "lower res 3G suitable videos" are doing stop-start-stop-start on 3G because of the way Internet providers share bandwidth. For this reason in the US ( I am guessing) that for HD videos 4G was needed for a great user experience. In India the same old 3G videos will now be seen without break on 4G networks. So the US/India comparison does not work without taking into account user experience.

That aside - 40-50% of Indian viewers are watching on phones and on small screens. HD and 4G are for bigger screens - if you can't see pubic hair on a small screen it does not matter that much.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Rishi Verma wrote:Blackmail on GST by Mamta over DeMo

Coffee Spill Alert: Bi*tch Anti-national Burkha has written the report and her ugly face is prominently visible. May send the viewer in a fit of uncontrollable rage

Edited as per kind suggestion below
Rishi ji best is to post the text from article here in case of rNDTV or cHindu types, if we all hit the link and visit their site, then they benefit, just a request :
News Flash
Old 500 rupee notes will be accepted at petrol pumps till Dec 2, not Dec 15 as announced earlier: Press Trust of India
On Notes Ban, Firm Warning From West Bengal To Centre: GST Now At Risk
All India | Barkha Dutt | Updated: November 30, 2016 20:00 IST



Bengal Finance Minister Amit Mitra said the banning of 500, 1,000 notes has created an economic slowdown
New Delhi:
Highlights

Notes ban has already hurt states' revenue, says Bengal Finance Minister
States were prepping for loss of revenue from GST: Amit Mitra
Notes ban is double whammy, GST unfeasible at this time: Amit Mitra

The biggest tax reform in decades - the national Goods and Services Tax or GST - has been thoroughly jeopardized by the centre's abrupt demonetization drive, said Amit Mitra today. As the Finance Minister of West Bengal, Mr Mitra is on the GST Council, which is drafting the rate and scope of the tax. He told NDTV that the April rollout of the tax seems unfeasible now and he will talk to other Finance Ministers about revisiting support for a reform seen as crucial for economic growth.

"After demonetization, GST has become a double whammy for states," said Mr Mitra to NDTV. The GST replaces a patchwork of central and state tariffs, creating a single market across the country. States are to be compensated for the next five years by the centre for the money they will lose from their taxes being removed.

However, Mr Mitra said, the abrupt banning on November 8 of 500 and 1,000-rupee notes has already created an economic slowdown, so states are losing more money and sooner than planned.

"The government needs to redo its arithmetic," he said, suggesting that the government's April deadline for introducing GST now seems doubtful. He said the centre "should do GST at a time when it's feasible," adding, "I don't see that at this time, as a student of economics."

Mr Mitra's party boss, Mamata Banerjee, has demanded the rollback of the notes ban, which the government has flatly ruled out. Mr Mitra served earlier as the head of a special committee that fleshed out the contours of the GST. Now, the details of the tax are being worked out by the GST Council which brings together Finance Minister Arun Jaitley with his counterparts from states. It has resolved some key issues on how the sales tax would work and has approved draft rules for its collection.

Economists including former Prime Minister Manmohan Singh have said that economic growth is likely to shrink by at least 2 per cent on account of the notes ban.

Trashing the notes ban as a "tectonic" hit, Mr Mitra said, "I'm deeply concerned about timing of the GST. People are talking about a recession. A 2 per cent fall in GDP is serious, (so) can GST happen?" He said he will reach out to Finance Ministers of other states to collate concerns about how their revenue is being affected.

The GST would do away with levies charged when goods cross state lines, a boon for manufacturers and transporters. The Finance Ministry has proposed four tax slabs, with the highest at 28 per cent for about 20-25 per cent of taxable items. Other slabs included 12 per cent for food and fast-moving consumer goods (FMCG), and 6 per cent for precious metals like gold and for essential items.

To meet its April deadline, the government has been keen on parliament clearing key GST laws in this session which would formalize the tax rate and divide tax assessment powers between the centre and states.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Manish_Sharma »

saip wrote:It makes you wonder how much black money Didi lost because of this master stroke by Modi. She is behaving like a mad dog.
certain number of her voters who were getting supplies of bundles from bangladash - Malda etc. may also have been hit badly and are angry, she has to be seen to fighting for them also to retain their votes.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Philip »

Ahem...retain her "notes""?! :rotfl:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/20/demoneti ... runch.html
Stranded trucks, unpaid workers: India Inc counts cost of cash crunch
Sunday, 20 Nov 2016 | 11:02 PM ET
Reuters
India faces cash crunch amid demonetization drive
Monday, 21 Nov 2016 | 7:29 AM ET | 00:37
Like millions of Indians fed up with corruption and counterfeiting, Vimal Somani cheered Prime Minister Narendra Modi's shock move to replace all high-value banknotes. Two weeks on, his business is being hammered by the ensuing cash crunch.

Sales at Somani's aluminum foil maker, Rockdude Impex, have fallen by roughly a quarter in the past week, and the cash shortage that followed the "demonetization" drive has left his supply chain in tatters: his trucks are stranded with no money for fuel, workers won't load goods for free, and distributors can't pay up.

Modi's move on Nov. 8 was aimed at cracking down on corruption and flushing out funds stashed away in India's "black economy". But the cancellation of 500 and 1,000 rupee notes ($7.30 and $14.70), more than 80 percent of currency in circulation, threatens to push Asia's third-largest economy into a liquidity crisis.

Consumer spending makes up 56 percent of India's $2 trillion economy. But with just the small stock of smaller denomination notes available and a struggle to get hold of new bills, consumers are holding back.

The government has acknowledged that the disruption would last weeks because of delays in note printing and technical problems with ATM machines, but Modi has made a plea for patience until Dec. 30. The government said it could not have printed new notes or recalibrated cash machines in advance for fear of the move leaking out.

Meanwhile, supply chains at small, medium and even larger companies are breaking down, underlining just how much corporate India - not just the shadow economy - relies on hard cash.

"The entire supply chain has broken," said Somani, who employs 150 people across India from his base outside Mumbai.

India replacing banknotes to fight conterfeits India replacing banknotes to fight conterfeits
Wednesday, 9 Nov 2016 | 6:40 AM ET | 00:37
Problems at Rockdude go from its network of suppliers to its 1,500 distributors and 150 stockists. Its sales team, spread from Delhi to Nagaland in the east and all the way to the south, is rapidly running short of cash to promote a planned new product, even for the rickshaw rides they use to travel.

Revenues have frozen, Somani says, but fixed costs continue, including wages. These are paid online, but his staff cannot get access without being given time off to queue at the bank.

"We are cutting production," he added. "If this goes on for two more months, then it will hit us very badly."

An executive at a mid-sized hair oil manufacturer, a beauty staple in India, said sales had crumpled as consumers simply stopped buying shampoos and lotions. Wholesale markets, which operate in cash, are shut. Distributors have no cash.

"We are planning to extend some discounts to the distributors so that they at least replenish the amount of stocks they are selling, instead of not buying from us at all," he said.

"We are cutting production every day," he added.

Like many of the businessmen interviewed by Reuters, he declined to be named, given the sensitivity of the issue.

Cash crunched

In the year to March 2017, the cash crunch is estimated to pull down India's gross domestic product (GDP) growth from last year's 7.6 percent by as much as 4.1 percentage points. Brokerage Ambit Capital says it does not rule out a contraction in the October-December quarter.

Corporate operating profits are tipped to fall by as much as 40 percent in the current quarter.

People ranging from taxi drivers and street hawkers to big consumer goods firms have seen their earnings plummet by as much as 80 percent in the first week of the swap alone, according to some analysts' estimates.

Those relying on informal, cash-based channels are, unsurprisingly, worst hit. Greengrocer Ranveer Singh, who regularly borrows money to run his shop in New Delhi, sold vegetables on credit to regular customers in the first two days after the cash crackdown, but has been forced to shut up shop.

"I don't have cash to refill stocks," said Singh, who used to make about $15 a day before the crackdown began.

"If it remains like this for two more weeks, my family might have to go without food."

But even for more sophisticated firms, paying employees is a major challenge, and not just in the construction and building materials sectors, which still pay contractors in cash.

Senior citizens waiting in queue to exchange their old currency notes of the denominations of 500 and 1000 in Mumbai, India.
Arijit Sen | Hindustan Times | Getty Images
Senior citizens waiting in queue to exchange their old currency notes of the denominations of 500 and 1000 in Mumbai, India.
As most Indians do not have bank accounts, most are paid in cash, though reliable statistics are hard to come by.

With the government changing rules for currency withdrawals and exchange almost every day, Somani and others are struggling.

Chandubhai Kothia, head of chemicals company Shree Ganesh Chemicals in Gujarat, with an annual turnover of 1 billion rupees, said a newly imposed 50,000 rupee cash withdrawal limit per week for some businesses that came in as part of the measures was simply not enough.

"The payment of wages to workers and transport are a problem," he said.

While Modi has promised the cash situation would become normal by year-end, Saumitra Chaudhuri, a former economic adviser to the government, estimates it will take six months to replace the stock of canceled bills.

Earnings crushed

Some analysts are already reviewing their estimate of company earnings for the rest of the year.

Brokerage Motilal Oswal warned this week that its forecast of a revival in corporate earnings in the second half of the fiscal year 2016/17 was now in jeopardy, with autos, retail, consumer goods, cement, telecom and non-banking financial companies likely to see downgrades.

India's vast services sector, which accounts for two-thirds of GDP, is worst hit.

Credit Suisse estimates more than 90 percent of consumer purchases are made in cash as few Indians have bank cards and infrastructure for online transactions is poor.

In Gurgaon's Cyber Hub, a corporate leisure center, several eateries reported a crash in their card swiping machines, compelling them to decline customers who didn't have sufficient smaller denomination bills.

In rural areas, where cash is totally dominant, the situation is worse.

In the wheat-growing states, sales of seeds and fertilizer have plunged halfway through the sowing season as farmers told Reuters they had run out of cash.

As the crunch continues, more are beginning to ask whether the government could have done more to ease the impact.

"The Prime Minister to my mind has done an income tax raid in every house in the country," said Abhishek Saraf, joint managing director of SquareFoot, a flooring-maker in Mumbai.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by svinayak »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
saip wrote:It makes you wonder how much black money Didi lost because of this master stroke by Modi. She is behaving like a mad dog.
certain number of her voters who were getting supplies of bundles from bangladash - Malda etc. may also have been hit badly and are angry, she has to be seen to fighting for them also to retain their votes.
Fake notes are serious issue

the border states are the main problem since mafia can get those fake notes inside India with ease.
If the border state is dependent on these kind of fake note stimulus it can cause damage to the entire country
if the political leadership in that border state panics it may halt the economic growth and economic future of the entire country just because of the fake notes.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sachin »

Mean while at Bengaluru, looks the state's police force would get an even more dubious distinction thanks to the demonitisation drive.
  • Retired DySP, aide arrested in realtors' robbery case
    Dy.SP (retd.) Babu Noronha, winner of President's Medal for Gallantry. Now accused of robbing a few realtors of their old currency notes. They were lured in by the promise of currency exchange :evil:.
  • CCB constable among 5 held for abduction
    Again, the deal was to exchange demonitised currency for a commission of Rs. 5lakh. Wife of the CCB Constable went to a police station to file a complaint of abduction (of dear old hubby). The policemen gladly took her to the lock-up where the hubby was currently put up :lol:.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sachin »

Enforcement Directorate and Financial Intelligence Unit in action And scanned a few online news papers. The expected "cash crunch" due to salary pull out does NOT seem to be happening. And with the government restricting the usage of old Rs.500 at fuel pumps, the new Rs.2000 would get forced into circulation.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by chetak »

Sachin wrote:Mean while at Bengaluru, looks the state's police force would get an even more dubious distinction thanks to the demonitisation drive.
  • Retired DySP, aide arrested in realtors' robbery case
    Dy.SP (retd.) Babu Noronha, winner of President's Medal for Gallantry. Now accused of robbing a few realtors of their old currency notes. They were lured in by the promise of currency exchange :evil:.
  • CCB constable among 5 held for abduction
    Again, the deal was to exchange demonitised currency for a commission of Rs. 5lakh. Wife of the CCB Constable went to a police station to file a complaint of abduction (of dear old hubby). The policemen gladly took her to the lock-up where the hubby was currently put up :lol:.
a few honest cops, at last.

Doing openly what was being done on the quiet. :)
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by RajeshG »

Most likely TKiran's chaiwalla doesnt own his own shop. He is most likely "leasing" the stall from a previous "owner" who doesnt "own" the place either.

These thieves dont own the place, dont pay municipal tax, service tax, sales tax, falana tax, dhimka tax. They just have their thela in front of some building/road/etc.

We all should just boycott these chaiwallas and go to cafe coffee day who do proper business, have a CA who files their taxes and take mastercard and visa.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by VickersB »

Those arrested are Abhinav Verma, a BTech and resident of Dhakoli in Zirakpur, his cousin Vishakha Verma from Kapurthala, who is pursuing MBA from Manipur, and Suman Nagpal, a Ludhiana-based property dealer

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/chandi ... 30860.html
chetak
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by chetak »

^^^^^^^
@ RajeshG ji,

cafe coffee day like places owned by shady sons in law of even shadier political fathers in law.

Better to take flask of coffee from home onlee.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Crossposting from Economy thread :
NRao wrote:
Rahul M wrote:66% is a bit too much IMO.

'surgical strikes' on black money holders are supposed to start tonight. we can expect an extension by a week or so to gather up some last minute holdouts.
You were right.

Demonetisation Math: How Much Cash Was Part of Our Black Economy?

Three weeks after the government decided to demonetise or invalidate Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 currency notes, data on cash deposits offers early leads on the progress of one of the largest currency replacement exercises across the world.

The data, once complete, may also help answer a much debated question – what part of India’s cash economy was also part of the black economy?

Based on various studies, it has been broadly assumed that India’s parallel or ‘black’ economy is roughly a quarter of India’s gross domestic product. Bank of America-Merrill Lynch estimates the numbers as below:

India’s Nominal GDP (estimate): Rs 15,17,81,00 crore
Black Economy (25 percent of GDP): Rs 37,94,530 crore
Cash Black Economy (10 percent of black economy): Rs 3,79,450 crore

These estimates and other similar assumptions on the proportion of black money in cash will be tested against the amount of invalidated currency that does not come back into the banking system by the end of the demonetisation exercise on 30 December.

The rationale is that unaccounted cash will not be deposited for fear of prosecution by tax authorities, giving an indication of how large the black cash economy was.
As of Monday the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) had released data only for the period between 10-27 November. And while it’s too early to conclude on the success of demonetisation in helping identify and extinguish black money, the data does set up goal posts to watch for.

According to the RBI, Rs 8.45 lakh crore have been deposited in banks in this period. This is about 54.6 percent of that portion of currency in circulation that was invalidated (Rs 15.45 lakh crore) by the cancellation of Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 notes.

To this, it would be prudent to add the cash that was already lying in currency chests of banks, since this is already in the banking system and some portion of this would also have been invalidated. This number – cash held by banks – can be arrived at by subtracting currency with public from currency in circulation.

For the fortnight ended 11 November, the amount of currency with banks was Rs 2.5 lakh crore. However, this is an unusually high number, mostly due to a surge in currency deposits right after the currency ban was announced. On average, in the past year, banks have held currency worth Rs 70,000 crore, for instance as of the fortnight ending 28 October, the amount was Rs 75,000 crore. Assuming that 86 percent of this amount (the ratio of banned currency) has been invalidated, banks are likely holding about Rs 64,500 crore in Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 notes.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Vikas »

KJo wrote:People want fixes to situations but are not willing to put up with inconveniences. Nothing in life is free. Modi is conducting emergency surgery, so there will be some recovery and pain for long term health.
KJo, All our lives, we Indians have put up with inconveniences, When did we have life of milk and Honey. Hasnt every Govt promised pot of Gold at the end of misery and hardships.
Problem is that Modi has raised the expectations as if we will see a new dawn come January'17 and if this DeMo drive does not provide results quickly, We have seen that People do tend to go back to other options.
Telling someone who is already reeling under all the corruption and incompetence of the Govt agencies that there will be more pain but long term health will cause 2004 'Shining India' deja vu all over again for BJP.
Yes Sir, we are impatient people since Patience hasn't fetched us anything till now :(( :((
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by SaraLax »

Manish_Sharma wrote:Crossposting from Economy thread :
Large amounts of BM have indeed come into the banks & into government entities through many ways ... like the sudden top-up of Jan Dhan accounts to 49K after November 8th, unexpected complete repayment of gold loans & other loans & arrears amounts in the banks and similar payments of arrears in electricity boards, municipal corporations and etc - across the nation. Also there has been direct money exchange in Banks/POs during the initial week after Nov 8th.

The sudden transactions on some accounts after Nov 8th and those accounts that never had any money in them or entities who had pending loan arrears and etc - are waiting to be probed by the IT department & Financial Intelligence Unit (Finance Ministry) as Suspicious Transactions OR they can be hauled into the net of Pradhan Mantri Garib Kalyan Yojana (PMGKY) scheme.

Hindu BusinessLine : Modi is running away with the game
.
.
.
Look no further than the interestingly named Pradhan Mantri Garib Kalyan Yojana (PMGKY), nothing but another income declaration scheme.

The PMGKY is a clever scheme that suggests the Government is thinking on its feet and reacting to data and feedback from the ground. The surge in bank deposits, particularly in Jan Dhan accounts which added ₹27,000 crore between November 8 and 23, and other innovative measures adopted to launder hoarded cash, clearly suggest that those holding unaccounted money are doing their best to get it into the system. The scheme taps right into this.


The PMGKY has to be seen along with the amendment to Section 115 BBE of the Income Tax Act, which deals with unexplained credit, investment and cash. The scheme allows declarants to enjoy half their unaccounted cash with no questions asked, with the other half to be paid as tax. Half of what the declarant gets to retain will have to be deposited with the bank to be locked in for four years without interest. So, why will someone accept these terms?

Simply because if she’s caught with unaccounted cash after the closure of the scheme on December 30, she will lose as much as 82.5 per cent of the stash thanks to the amendment to 115 BBE.

Over the last three weeks, the tax department has been sending out notices to assessees who’ve deposited over ₹2.5 lakh in their accounts after November 8. Trusts and societies have also been served notices to declare their cash balances as of November 8. The message is clear.

Assuming that ₹1 lakh crore is declared under the scheme (quite possible given that the last one that closed on September 30 resulted in over ₹70,000 crore being declared), the Government gets to pocket a cool ₹50,000 crore, which is about 14 per cent of the budget estimate for I-T this fiscal. Another ₹25,000 crore will flow into the banking system as free funds leading to a virtuous multiplier effect in the economy.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by SaraLax »

Image

A 252% relative increase in Revenue Collection across Indian cities - just for this year's November month and mostly due to DeMo !!!

I guess this is just for the Municipalities and City Corporations across the nation.

NOV 2015 Revenue Collection ( 489 Crores INR ) and NOV 2016 Revenue Collection ( 1722 Crores INR) !

A kind request to push the above image into the Whatsapp & Twitter groups of people who are offended by the current Demonetization !!

Same image can be sourced from here to (but a bigger sized one) : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CycSpRVUsAEiFsQ.jpg
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sicanta »

Gold in your lockers? Government not to tax jewellery from disclosed, exempted income

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... ry/461420/
Jewellery and gold in all its form purchased out of disclosed income or legally inherited from ancestors is not chargeable to tax under the amended I-T law, said Finance Ministry on Thursday. Giving a major relief to the people who were anticipating that jewellery would be covered under the amended law after demonetisation of high value currency notes, the Central Board of Direct Taxes (CBDT) announced that the Gold purchased from various sources including disclosed income, income exempted from tax, agricultural income or reasonable household savings not to be taxed. Besides, the ancestral Gold jewelleries or those who have been acquired from explained sources are also not falling under the ambit of tax, announced the ministry.

“The jewellery or gold purchased out of disclosed income or out of exempted income like agricultural income or out of reasonable household savings or legally inherited which has been acquired out of explained sources is neither chargeable to tax under the existing provisions nor under the proposed amended provisions,” the CBDT said.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi on November 8 announced the ban on Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 currency notes to combat corruption and black money from the Indian economy. As India is the world’s second-biggest gold buyer, and it is estimated that one-third of its annual demand of up to 1,000 tonnes is paid for in black money – untaxed funds held in secret by citizens in cash that don’t appear in any official accounts, the ministry were reportedly monitoring gold deposits of people after the ambitious demonetisation step. However, the ministry clearified that Gold purchased out of purchased out of disclosed income or exempted income or reasonable household savings will not be chargeable to tax.

The ministry further notified that that I-T department would not seize gold jewellery to extent of 500 grams per married lady, 250 grams per unmarried lady and 100 grams per male member of the family besides the above relaxation. Also, legitimate holding of jewellery up to any extent is fully protected, said CBDT.

Earlier, the government rooted out anticipation that it might be imposing some kind of restrictions on gold holding by individuals that was hovering around after the reports that many people had converted their black money into gold after the move.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sicanta »

Yes Bank offers digital service sans Internet for rural users

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... rs/460826/
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by SaraLax »


A very clear nice explanation from Gurumurthy (for DD News channel) of why DeMo was required, what it will lead too and which sectors need immediate help and so on. 30 odd minutes long.
Sachin
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sachin »

No tax on gold or jewellery bought from disclosed income
The government also highlighted instruction no. 1916 issued in the year 1994 that stated that gold jewellery and ornaments amounting to 500 gm per married lady, 250 gm per unmarried lady and 100 gm per male member of a family need not be seized.
---
Looks like GoI has now got Gold on its radar, but they have also pulled up an old instruction to decide the limits of Gold which can be kept at home etc. etc. GoI can now say that they are now enforcing a rule which was drawn up nearly 12 years back ;).
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by SBajwa »

Paying Taxes is good! otherwise how will the defense (Air Force, Navy, Army, etc), foreign affairs, railways, infrastructure, etc work?
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Rishi Verma »

It's a cascading volley of attacks
1) bank employees worked overtime
2) IT field teams working overtime
3) IT accountants working overtime
4) Jail cooks working overtime (coming soon)

Bangaluru Duo Caught with Crores in New Currency

Gov departments are the true sleeper-cells (they were sleeping for last 60-years) and modi knows how / when to activate them. Soon overweight BM and Corrupt guys are going to start dying due to heart attacks or burst veins in the fatty brains, they are already suffering due to sleepless nights. Even laloo's ear-hairs turning white.
vina
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by vina »

Oh. This seems like the Kaveri Neeravari Nigam guy who was arrested along with a contractor .. The irrigation contracts are about to be awarded. Details here IT crackdown on top officials
UlanBatori
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by UlanBatori »

" However, on sustained interrogation, Manivannan spilled the beans."
Such exotic terminology.
Probably also spilled most of the contents of his stomach and lungs during the "sustained interrogation". :eek: :shock:
Subdas
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Subdas »

All the sceptic of this bold reform should make a note. The game is already over and Modi has own it hands down. The goal of this reform was to force financial inclusion and that part is now complete as more than 10k lack crore of notes are now in bank and most mango people are having bank accounts just like they have adhar accounts. The long lines in the bank is the proof. The next phase of the reform is to assure that all these account holders have access to adequate cash. This is a easy problem to solve as RBI is printing money like hell and sooner or later the cash situation is going to improve. From there on wards, it is MODI all the way with tons of money in his kitty to back role his jan dhan program.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by ShauryaT »

nachiket wrote:Making vague prescriptions of carrots to encourage compliance is fine, but what specifically do you think the government should do which would be a good enough carrot in your opinion?

Is GST not a good enough carrot?
If one has thought through and read the various shades of opinion on this topic, one will not make that comment as a vague thing. An entire eco-system built over 70 years and more is not changed by a few acts. One can list many things on the lines of programs for BM being channelled for investment, a war on government corruption, more gradations in tax layers, reduction in indirect taxes, devolution of power, disinvestment, right to privacy and a fundamental change in the nature of the "financial" relationship of the state, its obligations and limits, etc. There are many things and NO GST is not an example of it. In fact, think GST is the wrong step for India and its federated polity. Most confuse GST with single market issues - they are two separate things, am all for a single market. It in fact takes India to a centrist and away from a federal model. Another topic for another day on these philosophies of governance and what is apt for India. But the key point is do not mistake the high level comment to presume it does not have details behind it.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Lilo »

Karan M wrote:TKiran - seriously dude. good going on convincing some random dude not to pay tax. way to go. great nation building right there. right on the day when some folks who are merely supported by that tax and who protect you (and me) lost their lives while you were convincing some random chai wallah to not pay. if you wanted to post an apocryphal story, err...not too great either.
+100.

Speechless after seeing on brf such proudly pasted accounts of "helping" "poor" tea shop owners to keep every nayapaisa of his 12 lpa income without a kaani going to the dutty communal govt .

The gaand me khujli of malsics or aaptards is seen to be believed when ever they look at modi's dynamism.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by disha »

Chaiwala now TKiran'ed TKiran.

News is that if you have unaccounted gold more than 500 gms of married female + 250 gm per unmarried female + 100 gm per male then you are in trouble.

That is a family of four with 1 daughter and 1 son can have 500+250+100+100 gm = 950 gm of gold untouched. Beyond that you have to account.

Now TKiran is truly T'Kiraned! :rotfl:
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Bart S »

Lilo wrote:
Karan M wrote:TKiran - seriously dude. good going on convincing some random dude not to pay tax. way to go. great nation building right there. right on the day when some folks who are merely supported by that tax and who protect you (and me) lost their lives while you were convincing some random chai wallah to not pay. if you wanted to post an apocryphal story, err...not too great either.
+100.

Speechless after seeing on brf such proudly pasted accounts of "helping" "poor" tea shop owners to keep every nayapaisa of his 12 lpa income without a kaani going to the dutty communal govt .

The gaand me khujli of malsics or aaptards is seen to be believed when ever they look at modi's dynamism.
Actually the guys posting that stuff on this thread are mostly neither. They are erstwhile super-bhakts whose enthu was lost (presumably along with their stash). :lol:
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by bharotshontan »

NRI question. Is the airport the only remaining avenue to convert USD cash into INR cash without an Indian bank account?
Gus
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Gus »

all those idiots who kept shouting "WHAT ABOUT THE BM IN GOLD"....

better be careful before they open their mouths and say "but what about the land" :P
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by vnms »

Buddy in our WhatsApp group:

"Government is going to take away the marraige registrations next. You are lucky if you have registered"

;)
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Karthik S »

Although it's necessary, but seriously hope government treads very carefully. Gold in India has lot of emotional attachment, daughter's marriage, child's first birthday etc. People may not appreciate officials handling their gold even if they have all the records.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Paul »

There are phoren citizens with FDs in PO. They needbto be tracked down as well.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Deans »

I have been a strong supporter of Demonetisation and that has been reflected in my earlier posts.

However I am started to get increasingly worried. Given what I see going wrong, its possible the decision was more impulsive than calculated
and all the implications were not thought through. 3 weeks into the scheme I have the following concerns:

1. Far too much money has already some back. The estimate for 3.79 lac crore in BM posted earlier, is a credible estimate and it was believed most of it would not come back. Now it appears almost all of it would. If the amount not coming back is anything under 100,000 cr. either BM holders have defeated the system, or the amount of BM held in cash has been hopelessly overestimated. The conventional means of laundering that we have discussed here (which my banker / economist friends agree) like using dormant JDY accounts. salary advances/ loans etc would not account for more than 50,000 cr (net, after people get their cut). Of course, increased deposits mean increased ability to tax unreported income, but given GOI's flip flops I am becoming sceptical of that too. Some of the proposals to tax may not withstand legal challenges.

2. The issue of new notes has been badly mismanaged. I say this after taking the view that this exercise can either have planning or secrecy, but not both and to the extent that there is planning, secrecy gets compromised. I am also aware that in a country which hasn't managed to run a PDS even after 70 years, or built a road without potholes, one cannot expect operational excellence in an operation of this magnitude and complexity, run by govt employees across 200000+ locations. That said, I do believe implementation has been madly managed.

My understanding was that about 2 lac crore notes of Rs 2000 were printed in advance, to which would be added existing stock of 100s and printing of new Rs 500 notes immediately after 8th Nov. This would have ensured about Rs 10 lac of new notes where in the system by end Dec (we don't need more, assuming the destruction of 3-4 lac crore of old notes and increase in adoption non cash payments). This assumes 16,000 cr are printed daily, while we have a capacity to print 15-25000 cr / day of high value notes (depending on the denomination), if the presses work 3 shifts.

However, to date, barely Rs 2 lac crore has been disbursed. Simply put, none of the notes printed since 08th Oct have reached the public to any meaningful extent. After various measures, the supply of 500/2000 notes has been increased to over Rs 25,000 cr/ day. However, SBI (which is over 20% of the banking system) has not recd more than 4000 cr on any day and does not expect more than this in coming days. The numbers are just not adding up. I now wonder if anyone at the top is tallying on a daily basis : Notes printed vs. dispatched to disbursal points vs. actually paid out AND
ensuring someone is accountable for slip ups.

3. I'm not sure enough is being done to prevent laundering, or that many of the problems could not have been anticipated earlier - without compromising secrecy. For e.g. an earlier use of 100,000 bank correspondents (could have been mobilised on the pretext of a financial inclusion exercise) would have worked wonders in rural areas. Indelible ink could have been in place a week earlier. Party cadres could have helped managed queues and take control of the narrative away from the opposition. A helpline could have been set up for informants etc. Some measures like ensuring all firms with more than 10 employees (or any firm required to pay PF) pays salary only through bank transfers. Also, implement some of the Shah committee recommendations like no cash transactions above 2.5 lac etc before 08th Nov.
Last edited by Deans on 02 Dec 2016 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
Sachin
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by Sachin »

Deans wrote:1. Far too much money has already some back. As posted earlier, an estimate for 3.79 lac crore in BM was a credible estimate and it was believed most of it would not come back. Now it appears almost all of it would. If the amount not coming back is anything under 100,000 cr. either BM holders have defeated the system, or the amount of BM held in cash has been hopelessly overestimated.
Or could it be that, the government expected that most of the BM would NOT come back because the people would not come forward and deposit the money? But won't this logic be incorrect, if people start depositing the money with a mind set that either they would pay the penalties, or try to fight their cases in court? The logic of the BM folks would be "let us go ahead and deposit the money, we can then wait for the over-worked IT Dept. to issue us notices, and then we will see..". The only people, who I feel would just not deposit the money would be folks who know they have got FICN with them. That would just get burnt up.

And yes, we also need to see what happens when Primary Co.Op bank gets their account books examined. These banks were always flying below the radar of RBI, and how much money they actually possess and transact may have not been known. There are lots of such banks in every state of India.

Also how can we say that the BM folks have "defeated the system"? They have just deposited their money into the accounts, and that automatically does NOT make their entire black money into white money. They would have "defeated the system", if through favourable judgements etc. each BM hoarder manages to get back his entire deposit, without paying any penalty at all. If that happens we can for sure say that they have neatly laundered all their black money.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

^
Well explained. Instead of letting the cash turn zero perhaps people have taken a chance by depositing it into the system.

Folks fail to realize that this was the first step. GOI has declared many times that any deposit beyond 2.5 lakhs will be examined and compared to past IT filings. That clearly meant that GOI was prepared for the next step even if they did not bet on all cash coming back.

There is still a gap between the amount recycled and the old money in circulation. We don't know but that most cash that is to come back is already back. Lets wait for the final tally.
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Re: Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

Post by pankajs »

Just the conclusion quoted below but those who want the details dive in

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/TILnOG ... ikely.html
Are Jan Dhan accounts being misused? Unlikely, shows data

While we are comparing two different time intervals here, it suggests the increase in balance in Jan Dhan accounts is not extraordinary—on aggregate, they are being used to the same extent as non-Jan Dhan bank accounts.
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