India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 28 Feb 2017 17:31

Singha wrote:since a lot of the brf pointy heads + tinfoil hat types both visit this thread, posting this review. I have a feeling I should read this . have ordered both the books today.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/ ... ari-review

Interesting! I've gone and ordered them too. However the idea is not new at all. If you are a reader of Sci-Fi there are plenty of dystopian futures for humanity that have been imagined. I've mentioned this one before- A Canticle For Leibowitz, but it is IMHO one of the best although written more than 50 yrs ago. Another highly recommended book which is pure science and not speculative at all is about the development of the human body itself. Written by a Harvard professor it is The Story of The Human Body. My take on this is what took millions or hundreds of thousands of years may be undone within a century or two.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Feb 2017 19:14

With kids in home stretch and final exam imminent, april and may will be all mine..they will be off to grandparents. Have a good mind to read the emperor of all maladies another shelf showpiece that everyone talks of but few read like brief history of time lol

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 28 Feb 2017 19:29

I started on it...and did not have time to finish it and gave it back to library....its a bit heavy read, especially the parts where patients sufferings are described. author keeps it medical, but you can still visualise..especially the old practice of aggressive surgeries etc..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Feb 2017 20:08

Yes that depressing aspect has kept me off it perhaps forever. Will find less heavy materials

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 28 Feb 2017 20:15

Singha wrote:Yes that depressing aspect has kept me off it perhaps forever. Will find less heavy materials

I see so much depression and grief in my daily life that I stay away from books and movies that capitalize on it. Which is why I avoid most Oscar nominees, much to the disgust of SHQ

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 28 Feb 2017 21:01

Hi Ramana, good synopsis of last 2000 yrs and juice. Could u expand a bit on their history before the french revolution and after christ. Thanks.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 28 Feb 2017 22:40

Kansas city sh!t "thought" he had shot "a couple of Eyeranians". Applebee's restaurant waiter is the one who called police. Good for him/her.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 28 Feb 2017 22:51

Singha wrote:With kids in home stretch and final exam imminent, april and may will be all mine..they will be off to grandparents. Have a good mind to read the emperor of all maladies another shelf showpiece that everyone talks of but few read like brief history of time lol

It is a great book with a lot of information if you can remember all

but Mukherjee has really presented the fascinating medical progress very well. But there is a 3 part DVD series too if one doesnt want to read the book. The visuals though will probably be harder to take in as it has footage of actual patients from 40's to now and not all is good news.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 28 Feb 2017 23:01

who dont have anything much in common with the 'nativist xxxxxxx' ideology

Got an indoctrination straight from a Strong Believer (a *** lawyer who claimed that I must be *** descended given malloostan connections with facial and hair features similar; I pointed out to her that per our beliefs, they are all descended from yindoo/malloos since who else could have any intelligence. Didn't say "esp. in Middle East".). She pointed out that the xxxxxx ideology is very clearly, genocide against ***s. I never thought of "Armageddon" as that - I thought it was Khadgi/ Sixth Ghodawala doing pest-e-sha'eed against The Evil, but since she mentioned it, that becomes clear to me too. So no love for Bannon types there, sorry.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Feb 2017 23:43

Primus, The Sci-Fi dystopian vision is also Biblical End of Times visions from Book of Revelations.
The regular Hollywood fare of DC destroyed by extreme weather, aliens etc. is a modern version of that.
The Islamists call it Khyamat.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Feb 2017 23:44

snahata wrote:Hi Ramana, good synopsis of last 2000 yrs and juice. Could u expand a bit on their history before the french revolution and after christ. Thanks.

Wow. That's two books worth but will work on it.
French Revolution is nearer in time to us.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Feb 2017 23:46

what is interesting is that the bannonistas have gotten into bed with the chosen people (for now) but the attacks against the chosen people are on the rise - as indeed they must be if the bannonista doctrine is followed

no wonder the tangerine tyrant declared it to be an unfair question... (he would get slapped by headmaster when he got back to the oval office for his 1-1 counselling)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Feb 2017 23:48

UlanBatori wrote:
who dont have anything much in common with the 'nativist xxxxxxx' ideology
Got an indoctrination straight from a Strong Believer (a *** lawyer who claimed that I must be *** descended given malloostan connections with facial and hair features similar; I pointed out to her that per our beliefs, they are all descended from yindoo/malloos since who else could have any intelligence. Didn't say "esp. in Middle East".). She pointed out that the xxxxxx ideology is very clearly, genocide against ***s. I never thought of "Armageddon" as that - I thought it was Khadgi/ Sixth Ghodawala doing pest-e-sha'eed against The Evil, but since she mentioned it, that becomes clear to me too. So no love for Bannon types there, sorry.

UB you have mastered the art of conveying amidst FUD.
Yes Book of Revelations is all about that.

Also Greek myth is about how the Zeus et al overthrew their fathers and established new world order.
So Judeo-Christian Greco-Roman origins all mean to over throw of the earlier order to establish new order.

UK got shafted in WWII to yield to US. In process India got it.
But that was about fifty years in planning when US businessmen married their daughters into UK lordships and the grandchildren handed over power.

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 01 Mar 2017 00:50

ramana wrote:Primus, The Sci-Fi dystopian vision is also Biblical End of Times visions from Book of Revelations.
The regular Hollywood fare of DC destroyed by extreme weather, aliens etc. is a modern version of that.
The Islamists call it Khyamat.

And the Hindus call it 'pralaya' although it is not strictly what I am referring to. The book I mentioned above is not about the Biblical end of times scenario but a very interesting take on how society ends - won't give away spoilers here.

The dystopian sci-fi genre is well established, with classics like Blade Runner (based on Do Android Dream of Electric Sheep), 1984, Fahrenheit 451 etc. These are very well known. My favorites though are Cloud Atlas (David Mitchell) and Wool (Hugh Howey). The latter is particularly relevant in today's scenario, I would recommend it wholeheartedly. If you think the present leadership is reckless and crazy, do read this, will keep you awake many a night. It is entirely plausible although technically improbable.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 01 Mar 2017 01:41

Breaking news on WSJ: President Trump proposes cutting State Department budget by 37% to help pay for increased defense budget.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Mar 2017 01:48

^^Foggy Bottom must be thoroughly browned

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 01 Mar 2017 02:03

didnt a whole bunch of them got fired already? expenses would be easier to manage now

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Mar 2017 02:04

Singha wrote:the thing which struck me as ODD in that vatican speech was his careful prefacing of every utterance of christian with judeo- based on what? 5 million out of 300 million americans.
what influence did jews have on the early settler farmer cultures of american colonies - almost none I would expect. jews have never been farmers in amrika - they are mostly in urban areas in trades and education and now STEM, public admin & finance. in western europe they were mostly banned from owning land in the middle ages and hence restricted to urban trades like teaching, finance, medicine, music, handicrafts etc - the precursors of what became high income white collar jobs later on. they were too small in number to infuence the national culture of even small euro nations like austria or belgium.

to me it seems he is carefully building bridges and acknowledging the power of the jews who dont have anything much in common with the 'nativist christian' ideology he wants to promote.

that way he is very smart - avoid conflict with folks who can bring him down or impede him while he gets his band together and puts on the war paint.

the strident calls of bomb iran might also be a bone thrown to this niche.

Am afraid you don't get it.

Abraham created a new world order when he came up with the idea of a Chosen people but he limited it to by birth from Jewish mother.
Moses introduced his laws and identity markers
Jesus came along and said believe in me and become Chosen.
Along came Saul/Paul, the Roman who thought why limit this to Jews only and let anyone become Chosen by believing in Jesus.
Next cam Constantine with his Council of Nicaea which formalized the state religion.
So Judeo-Christian is a foundation block of Western Christian civilization.
So folks who want to refer back to the past always start with this.

Bannon is also referring to this foundations.
Its not to the people. Its to the idea.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Mar 2017 02:05

Suraj wrote:Breaking news on WSJ: President Trump proposes cutting State Department budget by 37% to help pay for increased defense budget.

So quite a few Arabists will get the walking papers.

Should have happened after 1988 but the Kool aid was strong.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 01 Mar 2017 02:07

Suraj wrote:Breaking news on WSJ: President Trump proposes cutting State Department budget by 37% to help pay for increased defense budget.

OffTopic Alert:
According to The Young Turks, it is to pay for the 54 billion $ increase in defence spending. EPA budget will be cut too. So far he is following the corporate agenda. He allowed the excess gas to be flared from oil wells, relaxed other norms for shale oil. So far no tearing down the system, its more of the same. It will be interesting to see how Bannon goes about it. There is a danger he will be able to tear it down without being able to build anything in its place.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Mar 2017 02:15

The beauty is to bite off a chunk here and there and soon the system is not the old one anymore.
Go back and look at Obama years to see the changes being wrought.

Melwyn · Post by **Melwyn** » 01 Mar 2017 02:31

Isn't Trump hammering the SD and EPA in some way good for India. More gas in market means lower prices which helps India. Less budget for SD means all these pesky azadi huzziat brigades fed on SD doles have less resources. HRC would've done the opposite which would harm India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Mar 2017 02:32

Correct. Look at it from Indian POV.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Mar 2017 02:40

U.S. departs Aero India, leaves stronger relationships behind

!!!!!

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 01 Mar 2017 02:47

It also helps India (I hope) but where is the biggest focus of state department? Assuming it is focussed on Russia, China, Middle East,...,India,... - in that order, the biggest beneficiaries could Russia and China.

However, it does give everyone some space, relatively speaking. How India uses this space compared to others would determine our stature. The moment something flares up in eastern Vietnam sea, or around those set of islands, we should increase the count of our western neighbors.

OmkarC · Post by **OmkarC** » 01 Mar 2017 02:57

saip wrote:Jews have Anti Defamation League, Muslims have CAIR - Council on American-Islamic Relations, Hindus/Indians?

Have you guys heard of HAF (Hindu American Forum ) ? Mostly 2nd gen Indians in leadership roles.

disha · Post by **disha** » 01 Mar 2017 02:58

Suraj wrote:Breaking news on WSJ: President Trump proposes cutting State Department budget by 37% to help pay for increased defense budget.

Mission accomplished.

. All the robin's & alyssa's will not be able to put hurrirats together again!*

*robins and alyssa's with their mega-budget used to play viceroy-viceroy in the subcontinent.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Mar 2017 03:01

I hope the Ukraine, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Pakistan depts got the chop. But probably it was the India visa division that did, so celebrations are premature.

OmkarC · Post by **OmkarC** » 01 Mar 2017 03:08

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:
Read Yascha Mounk, a German expatriate who is in Harvard.

Also reflect on the French Revolution. Why it happened and what was its real effect?

The sack of Rome in 404A.D. ended Roman Empire in Western Europe.
This led to anarchy over 300 years while local elites established feudal kingdoms with help of the Church.
The Church recognized their divine rights to rule.

The Roman Empire was merit based in one aspect. Ordinary soldiers could move up the ranks and become Emperors.
The feudal kingdoms with elites and Church were hereditary.

It ushered in a thousand years of feudal rule in Western Europe till the French Revolution upended the feudal regimes and brought in liberalism.

So what was favorite past time of these feudal regimes till Reformation?

Kill juice.

The great Richard Lion Heart coronation was celebrated with regular massacre.

The depiction in Walter Scott novels of that age, Shakespeare plays all point to that.

So ending feudal age stopped persecution of Juice till Hilter and World War II.
Then followed 40 years of peace and founding of Israel.

Now the fear is Liberalism is dead under Trumpf.
See the double desecration of Jewish cemeteries in US in one month in Liberal Pennsylvania.

Good synopsis of past few centuries. Just following web traffic on RW sites - some people say the desecrations were fake, that this is an old tried and tested trick. Apparently in 1990, French parliament refused to pass legislation prohibiting questioning certain parts of World War II history - whether gas chambers & genocide really happened. The accusation is some jews orchestrated this "cemetery vandalism" exercise and ran it non-stop in media. In the end, French parliament budged and passed the law, thus preventing any questioning of established history.
Their contention is, they are pushing DT to do something that is in Israel's interests, which he doesnt want.

Melwyn · Post by **Melwyn** » 01 Mar 2017 03:22

^ Reminds me of the church attacks fake news cycle of 2014.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Mar 2017 03:24

Don't bother about extraneous rumors even if interesting. Focus on Indian POV.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Mar 2017 03:30

If he actually goes forward with this large scale decimation of a hallowed institution in American Babudom, Trump is escalating his war on the Deep State to a whole new level.

The Babus have seen this kind of thing coming and done their best to save their own skins by sinking the Trump admin. Behold all the "leaks" regarding executive orders, Russia connections etc.

The really interesting thing is that the Babus seem to have a good part of the intelligence apparatus on their side.

A few things to note:

1) Culinary institute was always at loggerheads with the Funereal Bookkeepers Institute, and also with the Pentagon. The decades have seen lots of political turf wars of Culinaries vs. both those other institutions,

2) Pentagon has often been at loggerheads with the Foggies.

3) These days: Pentagon and DHS have been given over to the charge of former military officers (some of whom, in a break with tradition, were serving until very very recently). This has subtly but profoundly altered the dynamic within the DOD, where civilian oversight has been something of a governing mantra ever since the days of '52 when MacArthur defied Truman over Korea, and Washington arrived at a solemn consensus never to give the khakis too much control over determining defense strategy.

4) Another very recently bowler-hatted khaki has been put in charge of the NSA. This has almost certainly ruffled feathers with the culinaries, who have never got along with the khakis (that tension became particularly strong during the long, grueling years of COIN in Iraq and AfPak, where they stepped on each others' toes and kept secrets from each other all the time).

5) The Funereal Bookkeepers are in a strange position of trying to duck the limelight at all costs, ever since James Comey was alleged to have a role in pushing the 2008 election DT's way.

6) So all told, we have Pentagon, DHS, NSA relatively firmly under DT's control (noting that the Pentagon is now in the charge of a khaki, something that is going to challenge habitual assumptions and require a little "adjustment in thinking" within that institution.)

We have the Funereal Bookkeepers Institute keeping their heads down, trying to avoid being labeled pro-DT.

And we have the Culinaries and Foggies in almost open revolt against DT.

7) The missing piece. Are the Foggy Babus and Culinaries running their own, separate revolts against DT? Is each one being individually manipulated by non-governmental Deep State actors? Or are the Foggy Babus and Culinaries working together? What was the trend during the last 5-6 years? I would think the Foggies and Culinaries established a closer relationship over the period 2010-2016 than at any other time since 1949... working in tandem on such projects as Libya, Ukraine, Syria, IS... (never mind), etc.

Perhaps the Foggies and Culinaries together support the Operation Gladio hardpoints left behind by the departing Neoliberal Deep State.

disha · Post by **disha** » 01 Mar 2017 03:46

UlanBatori wrote:I hope the Ukraine, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Pakistan depts got the chop. But probably it was the India visa division that did, so celebrations are premature.

Well some of the visa offices were used to play viceroy-viceroy and now the foggy bottom have to outsource that game to norwegians...

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Mar 2017 03:59

Bannon's views may be summed up as follows:

1) Capitalism as it exists today bothers him for two reasons.
A) In its bones, it is a crony system where lobbyists incentivize the government to manipulate things for the benefit of a select few corporate clients. Not truly a "free" market. Proof of this was the 2008 financial crisis, when both traditional Republicans and Democrats favored bailing out the banks. This inspired Republican voters to join the Tea Party movement in outraged revolt against the traditional Republican leadership.
B ) On its face, it projects itself as the vehicle of "choice" and the economic machinery that guarantees "personal freedom". It adopts libertarian conventions to present itself as giving an infinite multiplicity of options to the consumer... but is in fact driven by pure profiteering of an ethically unmoored variety. Having no values at its foundation, it ultimately ends up objectifying and commoditizing people as opportunities for profit above all else. It also contributes (along with left-wing control of media, educational institutions and popular culture) to the increasing "de-Christianization" of society with each passing generation.

2) De-Christianization weakens the capacity of the West to stand against the challenges posed by competitor civilizations such as China, and also by Islamism.

NOTE: While Bannon says "Secularization", I will use "De-Christianization" when I am discussing Bannon's rubric. THIS IS BECAUSE I DO NOT WANT US ON BRF TO BECOME CONFUSED BETWEEN "SECULARIZATION" IN THE INDIAN CONTEXT, VS. WHAT BANNON MEANS WHEN HE USES THE WORD. Secularization in India IS a systematic debasement of Dharmic values to make way for creeping Christianization, and nothing else. This is almost EXACTLY the opposite of what Bannon means when he says "Secularization"... which is a leaching away of individual, familial and societal allegiance to Christian values in US (and other Western) societies. There is no commonality of interest between us and him here... his goal is precisely the opposite of what Indics desire for Bharatvarsha.

3) The way to change things for the better is to destroy (catastrophically reshape and then rebuild) the institutions of governance. This is because the administrative mechanisms adopted by these institutions invariably end up aggravating the problems defined above.

The Sops to Wall Street (on the one hand) end up aggravating problem 1A: crony capitalism. So do things like the Fed manipulating the interest rate, QE2, stimulus packages that produce jobless growth, maintenance of huge trade deficits with China and other countries to preserve the dollar's status as international reserve currency, etc. All this ensures that a few (those close to the govt) will profit while many will suffer.

Other kinds of laws that enforce political correctness on campuses, or enforce environmental protections in business, for example end up aggravating problem 1B. (This doesn't wholly make sense to me, but it seems to be what he is saying. As near as I can understand, he is alleging that the fetishization of political correctness makes White Christians feel apologetic and less assertive about their cultural identity and heritage, thereby debasing the dominant culture of the west and leaching away the ethical underpinnings of society. Meanwhile, environmental protection laws are couched as being levied in the interest of protecting "personal freedoms"... keeping the air and water clean for the "little guy's" sake... but they end up becoming instruments of a crony capitalist nexus between the government and its favored corporations; they also help create and reinforce a License-Raj type of power structure where institutions make and enforce laws simply in order to perpetuate the requirement for more institutions to make and enforce more laws, and so on).

Added later: I think Bannon is also critical of the way problem 1B... the current face of "Ayn Rand Objectivist-School Libertarian Capitalism" as he calls it... feeds into identity politics through the mechanisms of Identity Market Segmentation. For example: "pink ribbons" (originally a breast cancer awareness symbol) become a brand symbol for products that are targeted at a certain demographic of women, and become identified with "women's empowerment" and certain feminist constructs of western women's identity. Similarly hip hop music (and associated fashion, entertainment properties, etc.) with a certain ethnic and age demographic. There are many such cases of market segmentation not only exploiting but almost redefining (and definitely reinforcing) sub-identities within the American population...and Bannon sees this as detrimental because it dilutes what he considers the source of "core American values".

Identity market segmentation under the aegis of an ethically unmoored and essentially amoral "objectivist" capitalist system, presented to the public as "infinite personal freedom of choice" via the channels of mainstream media (another of Bannon's bugbears), in turn ends up contributing to greater social heterogeneity by encouraging the assertion of more and more different social and political identities. This fissiparous tendency further erodes the homogenous White Christian framework that is, in Bannon's view, a required ethical underpinning for the success (or even survival) of Western civilization. Thus problems 1B and 2, as I've delineated them above, feed upon each other in a vicious circle.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 01 Mar 2017 04:13

ramana wrote:Abraham created a new world order when he came up with the idea of a Chosen people but he limited it to by birth from Jewish mother.
Moses introduced his laws and identity markers

Matrilineality among Jews was a much later shift. For the main portion of their identity formation, they were an extremely patriarchal and patrilineal society. Although endogamy was the norm, they were permitted to take wives from other communities. Moses himself took a wife from non-Jewish background. (But endogamy was the norm - even restricting them to taking wives only from within their own intra-Jewish tribes.)

Matrilineality came after the Roman occupation, because of the high incidence of rape by Romans. High incidence of pregnancy in Jewish women due to rape by Roman soldiers raised questions about every other birth in the community. So as a survival mechanism, to keep the community numbers, those children had to be raised Jewish. In the 2nd century CE matrilineal identity was codified in their oral traditions, so as to avoid controversy over the kosher identity of so many children born.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Mar 2017 04:23

De-Christianization weakens the capacity of the West to stand against the challenges posed by competitor civilizations such as China, and also by Islamism.

All that is good in the West has been a consequence of the weakening of the tyranny of the church by thinking men.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 01 Mar 2017 04:28

sanjaykumar wrote: De-Christianization weakens the capacity of the West to stand against the challenges posed by competitor civilizations such as China, and also by Islamism.

All that is good in the West has been a consequence of the weakening of the tyranny of the church by thinking men.

For a civilization materially built on colonial loot and genocide, it takes more than "good" to understand their survival potentials. Old Testament style values are the bedrock.

As the world's economy swings back to its natural state of 50% GDP by Chindia, both Islam and the Christian West will hark to that violent supremacist 'Traditionalism' which made it easy to justify might-is-God-ordained-and-therefore-right. All that feels good can be facilitated by the sword or the ploughshare, and which was the defining characteristic determines a lot.

Human Command Potentials and Roles in Civilization

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Mar 2017 05:16

Uncomfortable as it may be for some, Christianity and colonialism are Siamese twins.

There is much good in the west. Would you like to live in the U.K. USA Canada or Saudi Arabia Iran Pakistan?

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 01 Mar 2017 06:23

sanjaykumar wrote:There is much good in the west. Would you like to live in the U.K. USA Canada or Saudi Arabia Iran Pakistan?

Of course there is a lot of goodness in the West, much we can learn from. Also in Islam, and every other civilization for that matter.

Identity & Learning

My point earlier was about the survival dynamic they will default to when not in a condition of increasing power.

Table of Conditions here

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Mar 2017 06:24

OmkarC wrote: Good synopsis of past few centuries. Just following web traffic on RW sites - some people say the desecrations were fake, that this is an old tried and tested trick. Apparently in 1990, French parliament refused to pass legislation prohibiting questioning certain parts of World War II history - whether gas chambers & genocide really happened. The accusation is some jews orchestrated this "cemetery vandalism" exercise and ran it non-stop in media. In the end, French parliament budged and passed the law, thus preventing any questioning of established history.
Their contention is, they are pushing DT to do something that is in Israel's interests, which he doesnt want.

Interesting you mention this story.

DT claims them to be 'False-flag' attacks.