Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Arun_S »

http://www.dtra.mil/about/organization/south_asia.pdf
Judging potential nuclear arsenal size even for a non-deployed force is feasible if enough is known about fissile material production. India's and Pakistan's "dedicated weapon facilities" continue to produce fissile material. Their outputs can be thought of as "nuclear weapon equivalents" (NWEs). Although the actual number of operational weapons in either's arsenal is not known, analysis suggests that India has, and probably will retain, a significant lead over Pakistan. We estimate India had over 100 NWEs from its dedicated facilities by 2000 -- at least twice and perhaps three times as many as Pakistan. India's NWEs from dedicated facilities are far fewer than China's estimated arsenal of about 450 weapons. By appropriating fissile material from its unsafeguarded civilian power reactors, however, India could reach a potential of several hundred NWEs, exceeding estimates of China's operational nuclear stockpile.
India has had active programs in air defense and has been acquiring high-altitude Russian SAM systems that may have some tactical anti-ballistic missile capability. Pakistan has a less robust high-altitude air defense program but is seeking new capabilities in this area as well.
Nuclear force size, technological capacity, and geographic vulnerability -- as these relate to plausible enemies and threat perceptions -- are natural starting points for this assessment of nuclear deterrence policies, postures, and strategies in South Asia. In this regard, the most basic point about the nuclear and conventional military capabilities of India and Pakistan are the large asymmetries in India's favor. India's nuclear superiority stands out on all levels, delivery systems, nuclear warhead stockpile capacity, and possibly design experience with early generation devices of thermonuclear yield.4 This nuclear asymmetry is magnified by India's strategic depth and Pakistan's relative lack of geographic depth. In addition, India is far ahead of Pakistan in space surveillance, having begun to launch observation satellites on Soviet launch vehicles as early as 1988, and on its own space launch systems in the 1990s.5 India also has a large variety of long-range airborne reconnaissance assets, while Pakistan's surveillance and early warning capabilities are comparatively rudimentary.6 In
deciphering Pakistan's likely nuclear strategy and minimum requirements, discussed later, this overwhelming asymmetry is the point to return to.
Thus, in a simple deliverable nuclear weapon count, the asymmetry today favors China against India. It is important not to overlook the fact, however, that China's nuclear inventory and delivery systems were acquired to deal with the former Soviet Union/Russia and the US overseas presence in Asia, not India. After subtracting Chinese withholds for these requirements, China's nuclear superiority over India is less substantial.
Chart 2 introduces estimates that are confined to India's unsafeguarded civilian heavy water power reactors (HWRs), which easily could be operated to produce high quality weapons-grade plutonium. (Pakistan has no unsafeguarded civilian power reactors, and therefore does not have a corresponding bar in Chart 2.) Even if these Indian power reactors have not all been operated optimally for the highest quality of plutonium for weapon purposes, their reactor-grade plutonium could be used for weapons, albeit weapons that each would require larger critical mass quantities of plutonium (see assumptions in Appendix A). In essence, Chart 2 shows Pakistan's and India's "best guess" NWE production profile from dedicated facilities along side India's potential NWE production of plutonium from its unsafeguarded power reactors -- with separate bars showing the NWE quantities that could be derived from the already separated (reprocessed) plutonium, and also from the thus far unreprocessed spent fuel.

These Chart 2 figures show that, as of 2000, India probably could derive up to 113 NWEs from the separated HWR plutonium alone. From the unreprocessed HWR spent fuel, India could, over time derive approximately 475 additional NWEs (the pacing being limited, perhaps, by installed reprocessing capacity). Taken together, these Indian figures in Chart 2 suggest a notional capacity of about 700 weapons, as of 2000 . This is about half again as many NWEs as are estimated to be in China's operational nuclear arsenal (see second paragraph below). These Indian figures will continue to climb.
Sanjay: Your proposition of 20 air delivered bombs, is inconsist with significantly large delivery capability as evidenced below, and also that the dispersal of weapons and aircrafts around large number of small airfield around th ecountry gives teeth to assured second strike, as compared to handful of Agnis.
India's approximately 310 nuclear-capable ground-attack aircraft, on the other hand, hold all of industrialized Pakistan at risk. They include state-of-the-art types of attack aircraft: 40 Su-30MK (Flanker) and 64 MiG 29 (Fulcrum) -- among the most advanced Russian combat aircraft. In addition India deploys 88 highly capable Jaguar S (I) and 147 sturdy MiG-27 Flogger strike aircraft. Numerically, India's ratio of combat aircraft to Pakistan's is just a little over 2:1 overall, but the nuclear-capable ground-attack ratio is at least 3:1. If qualitative superiority were factored in, however, India's nuclear-capable (and conventional) air attack edge over Pakistan probably would have to be treated as 5:1 or 6:1 at least. India also has a nuclear-capable (Jaguar) maritime attack squadron.
India's most up-to-date fighter-interceptors and ground-attack aircraft are also superior to the bulk of China's (the exceptions China's recent imports of Russian Su-27s and Su-30s). Indian planners believe their conventional forces, with the added advantage of shorter lines of communication, would greatly outmatch China's in any renewed Himalayan border confrontation. Most Indian nuclear-capable ground-attack aircraft, however, have not had the range to pose a threat to China's interior and eastern cities -- without heroic measures.9
These long-range aircraft provide India with putative nuclear delivery systems of strategic reach for contingencies related to China. They could become the nucleus of an imported strategic bomber force. Even in an exclusively maritime role, these aircraft further accentuate the overwhelming Indian conventional asymmetry vis-a-vis Pakistan. If reconfigured for nuclear delivery, these aircraft also could mitigate China's still large current nuclear advantage against India.
Following was added later:

Ramana's referneces "500 Kg" weapon. This report mentions 450Kg nuclear payload. Some other sources state the S1 weapon weights less then 300Kg.
Having tested several nuclear explosive devices, it would be surprising if India were unable to package a nuclear warhead under 450 kg. In any case, given the range/payload tradeoff, a slightly heavier warhead may require merely a sacrifice in maximum range.
The Alfa may also be used as by India in the R&D process as a test-bed for developing the longer-range and unmistakably nuclear-capable Lakhshya cruise missile .
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by shiv »

Originally posted by tiruvarur:
And tactical (and sub KT ) weapons?
I think TNW is cold war terminology for weapons (including neutron bombs) designed to kill Soviet forces if they invaded Western Europe. The idea was that local lands should be less damaged by nukes.

Apart from that I think TNW have no use.

About subkiloton weapons RC suggested that the tests were to validate the physics and to confirm that the equations were right so that work can continue with simulation.

There seeems to be no doubt whatsoever that all P5 nations, India and possibly others are working furiously on simulation. In general, there seems to be reasonable confidence among physicists (and possibly not just Indian physicists) that you can work out most of the stuff on paper and build a weapon and it WILL work, and give you a huge bang, close to predicted levels the first time around without testing.

That in fact was just what happened over Japan in 1945. This fact may be a bigger worry for non-prol groups rather than those who want to build bombs.

Looking at the corrections people have offered to the errors I made in speaking of yield vs destruction, it looks as though matters like CEP and missile range/payload become more important once you develop deliverable weapons.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Priyank »

Ramana's referneces "500 Kg" weapon. This report mentions 450Kg nuclear payload. Some other sources state the S1 weapon weights less then 300Kg.
There was a photo released after POK-2 that showed one of the weapons being lowered into its test shaft at night, though it wasn't mentioned which nuke it was. It was an olive green cylindrical structure and judging from the scale of the men around it, it was roughly 30 to 40 cms in diameter and about 100 to 125 cms in length. Keeping in mind those rough dimensions and that the nukes tested in POK-2 were weaponized designs, those weight estimates are entirely plausible.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by shiv »

Originally posted by Priyank:
It was an olive green cylindrical structure and judging from the scale of the men around it, it was roughly 30 to 40 cms in diameter and about 100 to 125 cms in length. Keeping in mind those rough dimensions and that the nukes tested in POK-2 were weaponized designs, those weight estimates are entirely plausible.
The photo appeared in RC's weapons of peace and I have a copy. It is longer than 125 cm - more like 200 cm.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by saint »

From the pdf file: web page
------------------------
these words are pretty important:
------------------------------------->>
Whatever words it chooses, India is likely to pursue a more ambitious force structure than minimal
deterrence would imply, although it may do so over a protracted period at a pace of its own choice, as
long as there is no pressing threat and its resources remain constrained.28 Indeed, a more ambitious
nuclear posture is strongly implied by the wide array of military technologies India is already
attempting to acquire or develop, many of which are inherently dual-use. Technology acquisition and
scientific prestige have always been key drivers behind India's nuclear and high technology military
programs.
In due course, political events almost certainly will open the way to India's program managers to
stake additional claims. A future rise in tension between India and China, given China's asymmetric
nuclear advantages, would strengthen the political hand of India's military R&D program leaders in
arguments over whether to spend more rapidly or extensively to compensate for capability gaps.
Classic strategic vulnerability, feared technical failure, and hedging against crisis instability almost
certainly will resolve arguments in favor of advanced capability and push beyond minimal
deterrence. India's rhetorical commitment to minimum deterrence may be no more than a pacifier for
the international community, which is concerned about the spread of nuclear weapons and increased
risks of their use.

-----------
Vajpayee emphasized India's self-restraint but his early statements did not
use the term "minimum deterrence." He first endorsed this concept explicitly before parliament late
that year, saying that India would seek only a "minimum, but credible, nuclear deterrent," the term
"credible" being an important qualifier.

India also announced a qualified policy of no first use (NFU) of nuclear weapons.33 The Prime
Minister in a statement on the floor of Parliament, and again, much later elaborated this formula, by
the Foreign Minister in press briefings.34
The dual rationale Vajpayee put forth for India's going nuclear was more political than military. It
asserted that India needed nuclear weapons to immunize itself from potential nuclear blackmail in
world in which nuclear threats were growing, but attributed that deterioration to the traditional
nuclear weapon states, claiming that those states maintained a discriminatory regime that protected
their nuclear status, impeding nuclear disarmament. Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh elaborated on
this in an article entitled "Against Nuclear Apartheid" in the U.S. Council on Foreign Relations
journal.35
--------------

(1) India's leadership is responsible and non-provocative, understands the dangers of nuclear weapons, and would not let matters go out of
control;
(2) India's national aims are strictly defensive (implicitly status quo);
(3) India's minimum deterrence (a relatively small number of nuclear weapons) will be sufficient to neutralize opponents' nuclear threats or aggressive inclinations (presuming that opponents were rational state actors);
(4)consciousness of the horrors of actual use of nuclear weapons is widespread and makes them
unusable for anything but deterrence; and
(5) Indian leaders are consciously opposed to massive nuclear arsenals and have no intention of becoming trapped in what they claimed were delusional Western and Soviet nuclear warfighting doctrines that drove the strategic arms race.
---

Indian Nuclear Doctrine," which speaks of "credible minimum nuclear
deterrence" (para 2.3) against "any State or entity" (para 2.4). It advocates a comprehensive strategic
nuclear force structure -- with a classical triad of air, naval and land-based nuclear force components
(para 3). It further states in paragraph (4)(i) that India's nuclear forces and their command and
control shall be organised for very high survivability against surprise attacks and for rapid punitive
response.
--------

India is actively working on its own air and missile
defense programs. During 2001, India also expressed a more positive attitude towards President
George W. Bush's missile defense initiatives than most other foreign powers.
--------

India's NWEs from dedicated facilities are
far fewer than China's estimated arsenal of about 450 weapons. {not 700}. yr. 2000.
---

Kargil:
Kargil was the first unambiguous case of crisis management between India and Pakistan as
nuclear-armed rivals. It sobered Indian nuclear experts who had assumed India's "minimum
nuclear deterrent" would contain Pakistan absolutely. Kargil indicated to the outside world that
there is a high risk of nuclear conflict in the subcontinent. The experience may have
strengthened Pakistani advocates of the view that the nuclear deterrent is an instrument only of
last resort. Kargil clarified an Indian view that nuclear deterrence does not preclude conventional
conflict.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Priyank »

Originally posted by shiv:
The photo appeared in RC's weapons of peace and I have a copy. It is longer than 125 cm - more like 200 cm.
Thanks for the correction on the actual length of the weapon. That photo also appeared in a magazine (I think it was India Today) a while after POK-2.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Sanjay »

Arun,
I've seen such estimates regarding our NWE.
I also know that we have apparently not signed any contracts for ATBMs from Russia - that has been confirmed via Rosboronexport.
Regarding gravity bombs, the IAF has only cleared the Mirages for the nuclear strike role.
The Jaguar option was abandoned early largely due to flight performance being inferior to Mirages - confirmed by Air Marshal Jayal.
MiG-27s do have a nuclear capability in theory but are dedicated to Offensive Air Support roles and are unlikely to be diverted to nuclear roles at this stage.
This isn't to say the IAF can't use the Jaguar and MiG-27 for the nuclear strike role but it seems that at present the Mirage fleet is the IAF's choice.
The report deals with capability in potentia but we have to deal with a baseline minimum capability when making calculations.
I'm not saying that the report is wrong. It's just that I am very cautious in making estimates.
For example I use the 40% efficiency figure in my calculations for Cirus and Dhruva reactor production. The report uses a 60% rate and estimates some 100 weapons. Not unrealistic.
At this juncture I seriously doubt whether we've actually built any sub-kt weapons. I think doctrinal issues and C3 are still being discussed for that.
I do have a basic question concerning the reliability and useability of reactor grade plutonium for weapons use - clarifications welcome.
Arun - I'm interested here - please advise on the source for S-1 being 300kg - a clear ref. would be deeply appreciated. Thanks.
Also, given what we know about Agni-2 - and we've discussed this before - what is the max range achievable with 1000kg and with 500kg payloads ? If I remember correctly, estimates were between 3000km and 3500km ? Correct me if I'm wrong - please.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by member_4589 »

I think TNW is cold war terminology for weapons (including neutron bombs) designed to kill Soviet forces if they invaded Western Europe. The idea was that local lands should be less damaged by nukes.
Is there some applicability against Advancing chinese forces in tibet and maybe in the sea for sub KT weapons(eg: a carrier group)?
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Arun_S »

Sanjay: Agni-2 range with 1000Kg payload and 250Kg RV weight is atleast 3,100 km. With 500Kg Payload and 250Kg RV it is 4,730Km.

As for Jaguar and M2000 story is of mid 80 vintage, when the Indian deterrant was based on 200kt boosted design, that tends to increase the weapon diameter, thus the resultant 1000Kg heavy payload that must be centerline slung and diameter clearence becomes an issue. I would submit however that the mid 90's TN weapon does not have the diameter issue (intutive logic can validate it) plus it does not have the weight issue that requires centerline mounting. After all Jaguar can carry so many 1000 lb and 500 lb weapons on its wing hardpoint. So I belive its time to re-understand air delivered deterrence and its treamendeous multiplicity w.r.t. more types and large numbers aircrafts AND number of remote dispersed airfield where second strike weapon can be loaded for retaliation.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Sanjay »

Thanks Arun.
Is there any way that Agni-2 is capable of a 3700km range with a 1000kg payload ? No idea on RV mass. What if that RV were somewhat greater at say 400kg ?

Wrt aircraft, we never cleared the Jag for nuclear weapons and have not apparently built more than 2 dozen gravity bombs ! Each 15kT.

Not to say we can't but it doesn't seem as if we have largely due to other committments. Su-30MKI however, presents options hitherto unheard of especially if we ever get that 1400km range supersonic cruise missile going or even a nuclear tipped Brahmos.

Thing is that we can do more, but I don't think we have done much more owing to costs and still low production of Agni-2.

Sanjay
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Arun_S »

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Thanks Arun.
Is there any way that Agni-2 is capable of a 3700km range with a 1000kg payload ? No idea on RV mass. What if that RV were somewhat greater at say 400kg ?

Sanjay
See my updated reply on your other question. The 3100Kg payload is a conservative estimate. The RV estimate is I belive quite realistic. 3500 Km is on the upper optimistic bound.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Sanjay »

Thanks again Arun.

So 3500km would be upper realistic limit for Agni-2 with 1000kg payload ?

Now here's another issue - Tellis spoke to somebody who asserted that there was no way that Agni-2 could ever achieve a range of more than 3000km because of its narrow diameter and India's rocketry skills.

We can't really comment on the latter point since I've seen most of your earlier calculations firmly grounded in Indian reality - but what of the diameter would that necessarily limit Agni-2 range to 3000km or is that 4700km range with 500kg payload possible no matter what the dimensions ?
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Arun_S »

Yes.
My range is based on ballistic ability of the missile, assuming the missile is controllable and structurally sound for the stress regiem encountered while it is transiting the high stress region of atmosphere from 15 to 30 km altitude. There is some truth to the fact that satellite launch trajectory is little less stressful as compared to constant inclination trajectory that is optimal for ballistic missiles. My simulations does assume the ideal high-AoA (Angle of Attack) during the initial ascent phase(~10 Km), but an aerodynamic constrained sub-optimal initial trajectroy would not be far off and I do not see significant error due to it(my gut feel is it would result in about 5% lesser range). My rocket similulator will in future (~ 1 year) account for aerodynamic constrain, but as I said there would not much error for initally constrained flight.

What do you think of the smaller dia TN weapon argument?
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by shiv »

Originally posted by tiruvarur:
I think TNW is cold war terminology for weapons (including neutron bombs) designed to kill Soviet forces if they invaded Western Europe. The idea was that local lands should be less damaged by nukes.
Is there some applicability against Advancing chinese forces in tibet and maybe in the sea for sub KT weapons(eg: a carrier group)?
IMO No, not at all.

Warfare itself has changed and anyway China cannot "invade" using thousands of tanks - which was what was expeted of a Soviet invasion in Europe.

Carrier battle groups can hardly be killed by nukes - as has been pointed out by many in this forum (please check nuke related topics in the archives - you may find something). Also the earlier pages of this therad show how short distances (near misses) can vastly reduce the damage caused by nukes. At sea, with dipersed ships - your nuke has to be very accurate to do any damage. If you have a 10 minute lag period between deciding to launch a nuke missile on a group of ships and the warhead exploding, ships travelling at say 30 knots will have travelled 8 or 9 km away from the location they were seen at and may remain unaffected by a nuke explosion 8 or more km away, and worse if each ship is anyway separated by 2 or morekm so you can't get most in one go. A chancy process at best.

I see the use of TNW against attacking hordes as trying to fight a cyclone by using artillery against tidal waves. More waves will come because the cyclonic storm remains unaffected.
A big attack is best countered conventionally and nukes reserved for big ticket items like cities in a desparate scenario.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by member_4589 »

At sea, with dipersed ships - your nuke has to be very accurate to do any damage.
Wont the tidal wave around a big enough nuke kill at least most of the escorts(if not the carrier?)
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Sanjay »

Arun,
I seriously doubt that we had deployed any boosted fission weapon gravity bombs with the Mirages.
Your point about the smaller diameter TN weapon is valid though.
However, would still like a source for the 300kg weight of the S-1 device.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Arun_S »

The original Agni design (with 0.7 meter diameter RV) of late eighties was based on boosted 200Kt weapon, for that was the best we had. The IAF reportedly perfected tests for air delivery that I am sure involved both the fission variety and the boosted-fission variety. A force in being that Indian capability was, deterrence based on 15Kt fission devices is a weak one. Counter value deterrence required higer yield and only boosted fission could do the job. Given that Agni was far from being proven and operationsal IAF was required to deliver both kinds of weapon. Thus I submit that IAF aircrafts were being certified for both types of weapon and it was the heavier and larger diameter boosted weapon that precluded Jaguar. Of course that is not the case for long, since India does not use the large boosed design anymore, as proven by the fact that POK-II test did not have any large yield boosted weapon. The TN weapon replacing the large yield boosted design is smaller diameter and a lighter, thus enabling use of almost all interdiction aircraft types. All the above is based on available open source information.

My 300kg source refuse to be quoted.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Sanjay »

Arun, you sure about having a 200kT boosted weapon in the 1980s ?
I mean the first indication of a viable boosted fission capability existed was in 1996.
You seem very certain of the boosted-fission weapon's diameter - can you direct to a source ?
I understand all your points regarding IAF but I am simply suggesting that I have no evidence that anything more than 15kT weapons were cleared from Mirages. Mind you I will gladly yield to your information if you can point to some sources.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Tim »

Just as a point of reference, unlike missiles - which were defined as strategic, theater, or tactical in the SALT arms control negotiations primarily on the basis of Soviet military doctrinal requirements - there are no real defined nuclear yields which are either tactical or strategic.

US tactical warheads ranged from 1 kt yield (Davy Crockett) to at least 100 kt (on the Honest John missile in the 1960s). The MIRV warhead on the Poseidon SLBM was smaller than the latter, but was still considered "strategic". The "neutron bomb" (enhanced radiation weapon) that some consider the "classic" tactical weapon was actually originally developed for an anti-ballistic missile project.

In short, the definition of a "tactical nuclear weapon" really is more dependent on how you intend to use it (may be defined more by the delivery system or by doctrine) than on the yield itself. However, lower yield weapons are relatively more useable on the battlefield, in terms of fallout/environmental effects and collateral damage/civilian casualties.

There is a "cult of megatonnage". For what it's worth, the US just retired the B-53 bomb this year, which with a 9 MT yield was the biggest nastiest thing left in the arsenal. But in general, US warheads got a lot smaller over the years, at least partly in response to improved accuracy. The Soviets still kept a lot of 1MT+ weapons around, but they had lots of interesting (and very ugly) targeting options that they wanted them for.

A 1 MT detonation would certainly prove the viability of India's thermonuclear capability. I suspect that's one of the reasons (cross-post) that Karnad's so enthusiastic about getting a 1 MT weapon - it would be indisputably fusion, rather than possibly boosted fission.

Tim
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Umrao »

I understand all your points regarding IAF but I am simply suggesting that I have no evidence that anything more than 15kT weapons were cleared from Mirages. Mind you I will gladly yield to your information if you can point to some sources.
You may Yield, but the powers be will not yield any further information in this regard as it is in the interest of some (other) nation(al)s insecurity!! :D
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by tiruvar00r »

Strange, Someone deleted my tiruvarur username.

Admin, Is there a problem?
Looks more like a tech glitch because there was no talk about me.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Arun_S »

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Arun, you sure about having a 200kT boosted weapon in the 1980s ?
I mean the first indication of a viable boosted fission capability existed was in 1996.
You seem very certain of the boosted-fission weapon's diameter - can you direct to a source ?
IIRC from various open sources (I think WOP or WOF also mentions it), history of Agni development indicate that its payload specs were based on 1000Kg, 200kt boosted fission weapon that BARC was very confident of realizing. At this moment some needs to research to dig out from existing material. I take the 0.7m Agni-nose cone as the max diameter of the boosted fission package. BTW Agni program started ~1980. Agni tech demo flights took place in 89,92 & 94. IAF first started testing mid eighties (as a quick reaction to rapid TSP progress), such testings have to be done on continues basis due to newer weapons as well as to keep the manpower trained. The inital types in mid eighties were undoubtedly fission design and based on the POK-1 but made smaller & lighter and same size as a regular M2000 centerline fuel tank.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Sanjay »

Arun, agree with you so far. Just still can't say any evidence for 1000kg 200kT gravity bomb ever being deployed ! Understand your point about the Mirage centreline fuel tank as a size guideline but still...
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by kgoan »

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Arun, you sure about having a 200kT boosted weapon in the 1980s ?
I mean the first indication of a viable boosted fission capability existed was in 1996.
You seem very certain of the boosted-fission weapon's diameter - can you direct to a source ?
.
Sanjay, not entirely. After wazzisname, the wagah chaps famous interview with Xerox in the mid 80's about the Pak bomb, India Today devoted an issue/cover story to India's nukes. This was just after the problem about who would take over our nuke establishment and Rajiv opted for the Engineer.

In that issue, the guy who lost out for the Boss' job clearly said that if Pak tested it's nuke, then India would be able to test a "hydrogen weapon" within weeks.

That was in the mid-80's. I have no idea if the "hydrogen bomb" claim is valid, but I'd be willing to bet that such a statement would not have been made if we couldn't do something in response to show that we were still ahead of the Paks. If the "hydrogen bomb" claim was excessive, then it would most likely be a boosted design.

Of course, the point isn't what we had but that we did have something ready as a response to Pak by the mid 80's.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Umrao »

M R Srinivasan is an engineer odd man out to head BARC.

Agni program started in 1983 along with Prithvi, both had similar Oxydiser fuel tanks made of SS.
M.R. Srinivasan was an engineer
....
What was the yield from each of the five tests?

The yield of the fission device was about the same as that of the 1974 experiment. The thermonuclear device had a yield three and a half times higher. The three low-yield devices had yields of less than one kiloton each. All this has been obtained from the data at the seismic station at Gauribidanur (in Karnataka) and seismic measurements at the site.

What is the significance of the timing of the five tests now? Were they dictated by Pakistan launching the Ghauri missile?

Why not now?

The official announcement said that there was no release of any radioactivity into the atmosphere... What kind of craters were formed?

The surface features developed at the ground level after the experiments were over depend on a lot of factors, including the depth of burial and geology in the immediate neighbourhood. All the explosions/tests were contained from the radioactivity point of view. There was no ground contamination at the site. A very careful computer simulation of each of the tests on the geological medium around them was done and it was established that there would be no radioactivity release. Only then were the nuclear tests authorised. Careful surveys and helicopter surveys using air-borne instruments were made immediately after the tests and there was no radiation.
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1511/15110110.htm
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Sanjay »

Arun, can't deny your logic and if those are your sources well I can say that I've seen all of them. I just did not come to quite the same conclusions. In retrospect, I can't deny your suggestions at all. On the other hand, I still have my doubts about a ready 200kT gravity bomb.
I know you can't quote, but was your source on a 300kg weight for S-1 an absolutely reliable one ?
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by ramana »

Shiv, Did RC give any indication of how much was the boosting for the S-1 Primary? We know the final yield was ~ 20kt ie 45 minus 25(secy) and that means around 20/16 kg Pu got burnt. How much would this amount of Pu give without boosting?
Anyone else would hazard a guess?
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by shiv »

Originally posted by ramana:
Shiv, Did RC give any indication of how much was the boosting for the S-1 Primary? We know the final yield was ~ 20kt ie 45 minus 25(secy) and that means around 20/16 kg Pu got burnt. How much would this amount of Pu give without boosting?
Anyone else would hazard a guess?
Alas ramana - after going through this thread I realise that I need to meet RC again and put questions to him that I did not put. I did not even think of these qs as I did not know exactly what he might say - I was more concerned about the meaningless bandwidth I hav ebeen devoting in my mind to Wallce and co.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Arun_S »

Yes. BTW I didnt say 300 but <300, Amriki maal ki tarah.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by MohanJ »

Originally posted by tiruvarur:
And tactical (and sub KT ) weapons?
It push comes to shove, I don't think we will be tinkering around with tactical battlefield nukes-babies.. My view is that nuclear mines/small bombs are a total waste... given India's NFU policy.

Practical Un-usability of these apart (as Shiv demonstrates), our NFU policy effectively makes them unthinkable even.. Like for e.g: a Tank formation has broken thru and heading deep inside.. we can't use those tactical small nukes to stop this due to NFU...

I have another question..

I am getting a rudimentary understanding of nuke weapons.. I gather from above that to increase the radius of destruction by a factor, the yield has to be increased considerably..

Now WHAT about using simultaneously lauched multiple missles, each with small yield nukes, together targetting a large radius.. Why are we always talking about missile launches in singular terms?
What about synchronous multiple launches? hitting either one single large target area or multiple independent areas with accurate Missiles?

Can anybody shed light on the various modes and strategies of Launches? (Talking about Strategic/Tactical Missiles)..
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by saint »

I think we can use nukes for tactical battlefields, for example something like the DU weapons to blow any tank apart. Nothing to beat it!

PS:
we must go and redraft the NFU to not to include these tactical weapons. its only a draft.

< IMHO >:
Multiple launches needs an integration of lot of multip control systems or one system control x number of missiles that is launched on a target.
Hence it would be better to control on large weapon to a target.

Perhaps, we could think about once reaching a good distance to the target, multiple weapons or multiple warheads splits off the main missile, and goes for a wider area of devastation.
< /IMHO >
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by shiv »

Originally posted by Sai_NT:
I think we can use nukes for tactical battlefields, for example something like the DU weapons
DU weapons are not "nukes"
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by Arun_S »

Originally posted by Dr.JaganMohan:
[QB
I have another question..

I am getting a rudimentary understanding of nuke weapons.. I gather from above that to increase the radius of destruction by a factor, the yield has to be increased considerably..

Now WHAT about using simultaneously lauched multiple missles, each with small yield nukes, together targetting a large radius.. Why are we always talking about missile launches in singular terms?
What about synchronous multiple launches? hitting either one single large target area or multiple independent areas with accurate Missiles?

Can anybody shed light on the various modes and strategies of Launches? (Talking about Strategic/Tactical Missiles)..[/QB]
IMHO MIRV (with terminal airbourn disperstion to designated impact point, rather then large dispersion from Post-Boost Vehicle approach) can more uniformly distribute the same (or more)amount of explosive power to a larger distructive area, BTW that need not be in circular pattern either. The new challenge will be EMP hardening of RVs.
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by ramana »

Everenden's OCt 1998 commentary on POK-2 in Physics and Society.

http://www.physics.pomona.edu/faculty/prof/tanenbaum/phys17s99/Phys&SocOct98.pdf

He affirms the yields and also gives a comparisonof POK-2 and Chagai. Members might recall Dr Sagun Chanillo's paper in Current Science which does the same
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by ramana »

Am answering my own query. And there were many e-mails asking for link. So here it is- Last para in link :
"The engineer maintained that weaponisation had been achieved. The scientist challenged this evaluation, citing Chidambaram's statement that the 45-kiloton device weighed about one thousand pounds;...."

Link : Nuclear Testing in South Asia-Mallika Joseph A. and Jolie M. F. Wood
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by ramana »

Up and if deleting please archive. Thanks, ramana
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Re: Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II

Post by saint »

a question of the venn diagram if chidambram has india a separate full circle. But, western minds don't say that way.. and have clear intersection parts, from america, germany and russia, france, etc.

is the dig wrong?
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