INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

[vivek_ahuja]

So the Vikrant has been pushed to 2023/24 for commissioning.

Um, is anyone here (aside from Chola) upset by this? Or is the correct answer to "shut my pie hole" and accept that "everything is going responsibly and according to expected plans by both GOI and Navy"?

I mean, good-god! Either finish the carrier and deploy it or kill the project and use the funds elsewhere in the Navy. How much more time and effort needs to be spent on a 40k tonnage carrier in today's context?

[sum]

We will always have a reason ready:
Economic recession, incompetent MoD, over-ambitious IN changing specs, useless Defence Min, COVID-19

Take your pick!

[vivek_ahuja]

We will always have a reason ready: Economic recession, incompetent MoD, over-ambitious IN changing specs, useless Defence Min, COVID-19

Take your pick!

So if Vikramaditya is in the dock for repairs/overhaul/maintenance, we don't get to call ourselves a carrier navy? Nice.

I often wonder given the very limited deck footprint of the Vikramaditya if the IN can even simulate high-intensity flight operations covering a full-fledged task force. The Mig-29k numbers on board at any given time just don't allow for power projection. The Vikramaditya is very much an air-defense ship and nothing more. In the 21st century context of what is considering "point defence", is it possible to call the Vikramaditya anything more?

So if the Nirbhay is not available for long-range strike, and the handful of Mig-29s from a single AD ship are being used to maintain a 24x7 CAP, how does the Navy perform long range strikes against hard targets like a Chinese navy carrier group? Can enough Mig-29s be assembled for a strike package that can fight its way through an enemy CAP and launch closer-range Brahmos missiles? Can the Mig-29 carry the Brahmos off a ski-jump?

[Cain Marko]

We will always have a reason ready: Economic recession, incompetent MoD, over-ambitious IN changing specs, useless Defence Min, COVID-19

Take your pick!

So if Vikramaditya is in the dock for repairs/overhaul/maintenance, we don't get to call ourselves a carrier navy? Nice.

I often wonder given the very limited deck footprint of the Vikramaditya if the IN can even simulate high-intensity flight operations covering a full-fledged task force. The Mig-29k numbers on board at any given time just don't allow for power projection. The Vikramaditya is very much an air-defense ship and nothing more. In the 21st century context of what is considering "point defence", is it possible to call the Vikramaditya anything more?

So if the Nirbhay is not available for long-range strike, and the handful of Mig-29s from a single AD ship are being used to maintain a 24x7 CAP, how does the Navy perform long range strikes against hard targets like a Chinese navy carrier group?

I don't think the Navy has any such pains in the near future. Luckily Plan cbg is a joke for now. Indian cbg is purely for sea control/denial ops Saar. Since strike capability is there vis a vis TSP that's all.

Ranged strikes will probly be performed by akula. And possibly by the p75i in time. Hence the need for such a large ssk. Point is, the nirbhay is nowhere close to deployment. So ranged strikes beyond a certain distance are a pipe dream.

The only real possibility is mki+brahmos.

[vivek_ahuja]

The only real possibility is mki+brahmos.

I suppose we must be thankful for the islands in our possession and the geography of India jutting deep into the ocean giving land-based access to both east and west.

The Navy is being shafted by the fixed-budget being gobbled up by the very large land army and an air force enamored with very expensive toys. The stuff that is really capital-intensive is armed warships. So obviously that is one area we will ignore for the decade to come.

BTW, the other thing to keep in mind here is the AEW side of all this. Even within the limited context of air-defense, the Chinese have prototyped their Hawkeye-copy last week and this will be their long-term platform for airborne naval radar. What is the IN plans to be competitive for long-range radar coverage for their air fleet? land-based Plalcon dependence again? The Ka-31s are clearly not up to task if half the stories we hear about their op status are true.

The Vikrant was supposed to be an intermediate means-toward-an-end step towards larger platform. Now we should just declare victory if it leaves the dock and becomes operational.

[Cain Marko]

The only real possibility is mki+brahmos.

I suppose we must be thankful for the islands in our possession and the geography of India jutting deep into the ocean giving land-based access to both east and west.

The Navy is being shafted by the fixed-budget being gobbled up by the very large land army and an air force enamored with very expensive toys. The stuff that is really capital-intensive is armed warships. So obviously that is one area we will ignore for the decade to come.

BTW, the other thing to keep in mind here is the AEW side of all this. Even within the limited context of air-defense, the Chinese have prototyped their Hawkeye-copy last week and this will be their long-term platform for airborne naval radar. What is the IN plans to be competitive for long-range radar coverage for their air fleet? land-based Plalcon dependence again? The Ka-31s are clearly not up to task if half the stories we hear about their op status are true.

The Vikrant was supposed to be an intermediate means-toward-an-end step towards larger platform. Now we should just declare victory if it leaves the dock and becomes operational.

Yes. Thanks be to the Gods for their gift of Indias geography. Even the incompetent buffoons who man leadership positions haven't been able to completely squander that advantage. Yet.

Wrt long ranged strikes, a less expensive option might be leasing some supersonic long ranged bombers like the tu22. Even a small silver bullet fleet could play a tremendous the in the IOR. These will be quickly available compared to another CV. Another option is the kh32 1000km hypersonic that the Russians are adapting to the su30.

IN Aew options are indeed limited although it seems to be content with accepting more ka31. Seems like the serviceability of most russki platforms has improved markedly thanks to Parrikarjis effort. I would've thought that they might have probed the US for some v22 based aew by now considering it's penchant for their equipment. But alas this remains a fantasy. What are the Brits doing for their fancy QE class?

[vivek_ahuja]

Wrt long ranged strikes, a less expensive option might be leasing some supersonic long ranged bombers like the tu22. Even a small silver bullet fleet could play a tremendous the in the IOR. These will be quickly available compared to another CV. Another option is the kh32 1000km hypersonic that the Russians are adapting to the su30.

Here's the issue with the TU-22: If the Navy does not have funds to finish mostly-ready projects like the Vikrant, where are the funds for TU-22s going to come from? The budget could not even make space for ordering LCHs alongside Apache acquisitions, or LCAs alongside Rafales. If the Vikrant is being hobbled by financial limitations, I don't see TU-22 or other high-end capital acquisitions happening either.

And Putin is not going to offer the limited number of TU-22s he has for his own wars. At least not at a cost that would make it tempting.

IN Aew options are indeed limited although it seems to be content with accepting more ka31. Seems like the serviceability of most russki platforms has improved markedly thanks to Parrikarjis effort. I would've thought that they might have probed the US for some v22 based aew by now considering it's penchant for their equipment. But alas this remains a fantasy.

I must have missed the improved ops status of Ka-31s. Has this been reported anywhere?

Even so, if the Ka-31s are fully operation, their overall capability and time-on-station is extremely limited. My understanding was that if you factor in the time taken to get on-station and then off-station for refueling, the actual time on station is under an hour (I remember 30 minutes being mentioned but don't quote me on that). So unless the Vikky is launching a series of Ka-31s on a string of launch/recovery 24/7, you are not getting anything close to a fixed-wing AEW catapulted with a full fuel load. In that sense, one Hawkeye (or something similar) is worth five or six Ka-31s. This does not even include the radius of action around the ship...

What are the Brits doing for their fancy QE class?

Oh, they are screwed. I know Brar_w will be in here explaining how the F-35s are their own AEW when networked with each other, but to my knowledge they (the brits, I mean) are restricted to land-based AWACS coverage.

The French are the only other ones with a carrier-launched AEW. The Chinese will enter that club in a year or two with their KJ-600.

[Philip]

More than 100 Backfires were in use in 2014. Russia has/ is modernising around 24 of them plus a number of TU-142/95 Bears,which we retired, and restarted Blackjack production. All have seen large action in the Syrian conflict sending ISIS into oblivion. Bears regularly test UK air defences. There are enough if we want a dozen or so. The PAK-DA stealth bomber will also appear in this decade.That is a project which we should start,a LR desi stealth bomber for the IAF and IN to appear post 2030.

The KA-31 has a loiter time of 2.5 hrs and a max range of 600km.Detection is 150km for aircraft,200km for ships and it can handle upto 40 targets simultaneously.Pretty decent capabilities by my book,why the IN wants more! We wanted 10,reduced to 6 becos of funds.

Until we can afford and build larger CVs,and with UCAVs proliferating more by the day, there is little chance that a Hawkeye type AEW bird will be seen in IN colours,unless it is land based.
I would instead advocate basing large AEW/ AWACS platforms in the ANC and LDweep.These would be IL-76/90s,the new heavily upgraded heavy transport aircraft ,instead of A-330s,which are hugely exprnsive, $240M upwards in comparison to an IL-76,the platform for our Phalcon AWACS, which costs only $100M.40 are in production for the RuAF costing just under $4 B for the lot.This will help standardise one platform for transports,s=t_,
Alternately, if moolah for extra AWACS/AEWs is tight,large numbers of smaller AEW aircraft like our Netras on EMB platforms could be acquired.A mix of heavy AWACS/AEW and smaller Netra class birds would be ideal. When funds are available,more AEW KA-31s could be also acquired for our CVs and surface combatants.

There is an innovative Ru corvette/ LCS size,which has a below deck hangar.It is possible to use the concept by adding a hangar on the main deck to house one helo in it,and upto two helos below deck,or two helos and at least one UAV too. One of these could be a KA-31,allowing large corvette sized warships to broaden their
capabilities.

[Philip]

PS: As stated earlier,if we convert the 4 amphibs into multi-purpose light CVs,we would have at least 3 more CVs operating the NLCA preferably, along with ASW/assault helos,which could operate at various points in the IOR,etc. These vessels would cost a fraction of a large CV,affordable ,unlike a $10-15B CV which would gobble up the budget.

[vivek_ahuja]

PS: As stated earlier,if we convert the 4 amphibs into multi-purpose light CVs,we would have at least 3 more CVs operating the NLCA preferably, along with ASW/assault helos,which could operate at various points in the IOR,etc. These vessels would cost a fraction of a large CV,affordable ,unlike a $10-15B CV which would gobble up the budget.

Can you imagine the amount of restructuring and heavy-capital investments that the Navy would have to make to support what you are proposing?

Within the current budget context, I doubt if any of this is in any way possible. The best we can hope for is the Vikrant being finished and deployed in this decade. Hopefully.

[Vivek K]

Improving infrastructure in the Andamans and perhaps on mainland and in Lakshadweeps can serve as alternative to carriers. Since India is not looking to fight all over the world, two carriers to take the fight into South China Sea are adequate. For Pakistan, carriers are not necessary. And with a larger refuelling fleet, aircraft of IAF and IN can take off from these shores and project power.

Expecting GOI to take logical, strategic decisions (in a few days instead of decades) is out of the question. So at best IN will have one carrier at sea and one in the shop - fantasies of behaving like the USN notwithstanding.

[vivek_ahuja]

So at best IN will have one carrier at sea and one in the shop - fantasies of behaving like the USN notwithstanding.

Indeed. I just want the Vikrant to actually be commissioned at this point and fly Mig-29k off its decks and not go the way of the classic GoI "Technology Demonstrator" program-management strategy.

[Philip]

The 4 amphibs of 30K t are planned,approved and were on the verge of being awarded to L&T a few years ago before the DPSU/ babu clique sabotaged it. All that's needed is a redesign of the flight deck,v.easy.See how light/ med carriers like the Vikrant and Hermes/Viraat were changed from angle-landing inyo ski-jump CVs . Instead of a straight runway in usual amphibs,,an angle-runway deck layout as well as a ski-jump as on the VikA and Vikrant II will allow light/ med. naval aitcraft to operate from the vessel. SAAB had even given a proposal for a Sea Gripen aboard the old Viraat. The extra cost will be negligible,but for the additional fixed wing aircraft.around 50+ NLCAs and some extra 29Ks won't break the bank,would cost not more than $2.5/3B. The amphibs not more than $1to 1.5B apiece. At least 2 could be approved for this decade,would be built fast, and evaluated by mid/late in the decade for the req. for the next flat-top. As carrier UCAVs arrive and are integrated with manned birds,the contours of future CVs will definitely change.

[vivek_ahuja]

The extra cost will be negligible,but for the additional fixed wing aircraft.around 50+ NLCAs and some extra 29Ks won't break the bank,would cost not more than $2.5/3B.

Have you seen the fiasco in the LCA thread for ordering 83 LCAs that are already in production? Or the 15 LCHs that we have been hearing about since the time I joined this forum?

50+ NLCAs will not happen. Extra 29ks will only happen once the navy is shown the empty wallet in front of the Rafale-M salespersons.

[ks_sachin]

The extra cost will be negligible,but for the additional fixed wing aircraft.around 50+ NLCAs and some extra 29Ks won't break the bank,would cost not more than $2.5/3B.

Have you seen the fiasco in the LCA thread for ordering 83 LCAs that are already in production? Or the 15 LCHs that we have been hearing about since the time I joined this forum?

50+ NLCAs will not happen. Extra 29ks will only happen once the navy is shown the empty wallet in front of the Rafale-M salespersons.

"Pithy" sir

[KSingh]

TEDBF is being explicitly designed to fit into the footprint of the MIG-29K so their ability to fit on the lifts is a given

TEDBF design is in a preliminary stage. With 2 F414 engines and an unavoidably larger wingspan than the Tejas Mk1, plus adequate space for internal fuel it is impossible for the final product to be smaller than the Rafale. The only way it can fit into the footprint of the Mig-29K is if it has folding wings.

Yes it will have folding wings, Rafale-M lacks them

[tsarkar]

Two elevators are not worth introducing any design constraints in a new generation fighter that will take 10 years to design, test & produce and serve atleast for another 30 years.

The old INS Vikrant was built in the 50's and was modernized in the 80's to accommodate the Sea Harrier and it is absolutely no big deal designing, manufacturing and installing two new elevators. Its less than a year's work starting from zero and we have enough heavy engineering companies in India to do it on turnkey basis. Navy architects and engineers can do it inhouse as well.

Any new fighter, whether purchased or developed is at the very least 3 years away and we've ample time to do the modifications.

[Nihat]

As someone mentioned, thank god for India's natural geography and the A&N islands that present an omni present unsinkable carrier. As I read recently that the GOI intend to further develop the bases on these islands so at least that becomes a tool of strategic advantage and dominance, which are a traditional carrier role.

I wonder what kind of role we are envisaging for the Vikrant as and when it enters service. Given the limited carrying capacity, perhaps both carriers will play a sea denial role against Pakistan, with A&N acting as a permanent base against China.

[srin]

Yes, we need make good use of Andamans and Greater Nicobar and also Lakshadweep. We need long airstrips and equip them with fighters and MPAs and bombers.

But the unsinkable carrier is also an immovable carrier.

It isn't going to help you with force projections and persistence elsewhere in the IOR. I wish we had some of our own islands near Seychelles or Maldives.

[chola]

I guess this is good. Just desis being desis and nothing more sinister. oi.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 191987.amp

INS Vikrant theft for monetary gain, maintain arrested duo during lie detection test

By Toby Antony| Express News Service | Published: 03rd September 2020 04:34 PM

KOCHI: The National Investigation Agency (NIA) has conducted polygraph (lie detection) tests on the two persons arrested for stealing computer hardware from INS Vikrant, India's first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC).

The arrested persons -- Sumit Kumar Singh of Bihar and Daya Ram of Rajasthan – maintained that they carried out the theft for monetary gains, a source told The New Indian Express. The agency is likely to transfer the case to the Kerala police as they gathered no evidence that the duo attempted to wage war against the nation.

The polygraph test was carried out at a laboratory in Thrissur two weeks ago after the accused gave their consent for it at the NIA Court in Kochi. “We decided to conduct the test to check whether the duo's statement about their intention behind the theft was true. During the test, they maintained that they carried out the theft for monetary gain. They knew that high-quality computer hardware is used in the IAC and that it will fetch them a good price,” said a source.

...

[Vivek K]

Yes, we need make good use of Andamans and Greater Nicobar and also Lakshadweep. We need long airstrips and equip them with fighters and MPAs and bombers.

But the unsinkable carrier is also an immovable carrier.

It isn't going to help you with force projections and persistence elsewhere in the IOR. I wish we had some of our own islands near Seychelles or Maldives.

Force projection? Isn't that like "Don Quixote chasing after the windmills"? With our present struggles against CHI-PAK, all future resources for the next 5 years will be committed to that theater. How will you find hardware to project force anywhere else?
The decades of expensive imports have depleted the capability to have a force structure to project power beyond our territorial limits.

[vivek_ahuja]

But the unsinkable carrier is also an immovable carrier.

And an extremely vulnerable one!

This is the key point. For all our hopes and dream for A&N, their inability to move means that every target of significance on these bases can be literally dialed in to the meter by the enemy well in advance, along with the best angles to attack it and so forth.

It reminds of the Japanese in the Pacific War trying to combat the US Navy from fixed airbases on various islands in the Pacific. I am not suggesting that the mismatch would be that severe (we are not as badly off as the Japs were in the last two years of WW2, and the Chinese are not nearly as well off as the US Navy was in those days), but with ballistic missiles and other submarine-launched weapons available, are we sure we won't just see the A&N islands struck in the opening move of any panda attack?

[Philip]

The size and no. of islands in the ANC is immense.To take out well fortified positions and installations carefully hidden in tunnels,camouflaged,decoys,etc.,would be a herculean task.It would require an invasion and occupation.The US had a terribly rough time at Guadalcanal,Iwo Jima,where hiding in caves,etc ,the Japanese took them to the abyss. Iwo,etc.,was bombarded by ships of the USN,bombed from the air to little avail. The grunts had to do the biz. If the ANC is attacked with missiles,hundreds,if not thousands would be required and the enemy as the US found out in Iraq,quickly expended their Tomahawks and had to massively start production. You may need around only half-a-doz. missiles instead to sink a CV once you've tracked and targeted it! At our airbases/ naval air stations,numbering around four at the moment, would have aircraft dispersed,teams ready to repair damaged runways,etc. Subs could be safe in pens too.We musn't forget that all points of importance will be heavily defended with AAA,and a variety of SAM systems.Nothing short of a nuclear attack will put it out of action, and even require several devices.
In fact the Chin base at Yulin on Hainan island is more vulnerable
being just one location.

[vivek_ahuja]

Philip: I doubt there will be any intention of invading or capturing the islands. Once the runways are knocked out on A&N, that is the end of air cover. That leaves only the ground-launched cruise missiles (Brahmos) which will have limited range and which the Indian military would probably not risk launching blind in an otherwise populated commercial shipping lane.

Now that I think of it, how is the Brahmos to get its target data without an airborne radar providing that info?

The Chinese aim will be to break through to the overall Indian Ocean region to shut down all shipping lanes around India. Their massive large fleet being prepared might just circle around Indonesia and avoid A&N and still get into the Indian Ocean. That is the core problem with thinking of A&N as replacements for aircraft carriers: they are locked in place.

In the pacific war, the Americans did the same and simply bypassed island strongholds after neutralizing the airbases there. They only landed on islands that were crucial to their overall strategy to get to the Japanese home islands. With a shared border with India, no such use exists for A&N.

[Cain Marko]

The Chinese aim will be to break through to the overall Indian Ocean region to shut down all shipping lanes around India. Their massive large fleet being prepared might just circle around Indonesia and avoid A&N and still get into the Indian Ocean. That is the core problem with thinking of A&N as replacements for aircraft carriers: they are locked in place.

In the pacific war, the Americans did the same and simply bypassed island strongholds after neutralizing the airbases there. They only landed on islands that were crucial to their overall strategy to get to the Japanese home islands. With a shared border with India, no such use exists for A&N.

Where be the backfires? That's my question. And dare I say, comrade Phillipovs as well. In the meanwhile, the MKIs will have to shoulder on....

[vivek_ahuja]

Where be the backfires? That's my question. And dare I say, comrade Phillipovs as well. In the meanwhile, the MKIs will have to shoulder on....

The Backfires? They will be in the Russian Air Force/Navy. We are talking about the Indian Navy. Let's be realistic.

If the MKIs are the long-range attack force, what is the role of the Navy carrier program then? Point air defense for its own ships which anyway lack anything longer than Brahmos missiles?

I don't see the subsonic Nirbhay being very effective in an anti-shipping role. of course, it will serve to allow land-attack capabilities to a navy attack force which in turn is protected by the Mig-29ks flying overhead.

[nachiket]

I have deleted a couple of posts related to Backfires. Stick to discussing the INS Vikrant and related topics here.

[Cain Marko]

<deleted by mod>

[Philip]

<deleted by mod>

[nachiket]

No more discussion on Backfires here. Looks like people don't read warnings.

[Mandeepsajwan]

https://www.theindianhawk.com/2020/06/I ... rship.html

Added by Mod: Mandeepsajwan, you post like this :

The caption you want to give

.

[Philip]

Sorry,didn't receive any warnings.
Let's just say that the lack of a supersonic maritime strike bomber,in the light of recent conflicts is a gap in our capability that must be rectified.It could be from anywhere,even B-52s welcomed!

Veteran analyst Peter Butowski in March this year wrote a report on the modernisation of the Ru strat. bombing fleet and their immense capabilities. Just one can carry 12 X 2500km range land attack/ maritime strike missiles. Our MKIs can carry just one BMos ASM on its centreline pylon,whereas one of the bomber types in the report can carry 3 on just one pylon. In addition,the range and endurance of such bombers vastly outranges even that of a long-legged MKI. The PLAN today possesses more warships and subs than even the USN,therefore in the light of these vast numbers ranged against us we have to possess weapon systems that give us a multiple advantage per platform. It's why the Rafale,an omni-capable multi-role fighter was acquired that could simultaneously carry out both anti-air and strike missions. One LRMS bomber could deliver a devastating saturation attack against a PLAN CBG or task force annhilating it in just ond strike.

Both the IAF and IN in the light of the PRC throwing down the gauntlet urgently such a capability, and as of yesterday an indigenous LR stealth strat. bomber programme must be started.
I trust that the objective intention of the post is understood for what it is ,not product peddling.

PS: I've said before,read history.How man carriers were sunk in WW2 and how many islanx bases in comparison? True,carriers give unmatched mobility,but in the IOR,LRMP with super and hypersonic missiles with huge ranges have dramatically increased the reach of such land/ island- based aircraft.We do not havf likf thexUSN expeditionary ambitions,if we did,I would advocate more carriers.

[jamwal]

Indian P8I are armed with Harpoons which are old yet capable. All this talk about Brahmos on every thread reminds me of that saying 'if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail'


Aircraft carriers are one thing, airstrips on islands another thing entirely. Former are mobile, hard to track and take down. Islands don't have any such advantage. These islands are a defence outpost in the ocean at best and can't compete with mobility, offensive capability and reach of a proper AC wing. Some American general probably said this 'unsinkable aircraft carrier' thing in public, now everyone keeps repeating it without giving it any thought.

[brar_w]

Some American general probably said this 'unsinkable aircraft carrier' thing in public, now everyone keeps repeating it without giving it any thought.

You are on to something. The term “unsinkable carrier” shouldn’t be part or any honest or intelligent conversation about force projection, defense or ACs at large. But yet, here we are.

[vivek_ahuja]

Some American general probably said this 'unsinkable aircraft carrier' thing in public, now everyone keeps repeating it without giving it any thought.

You are on to something. The term “unsinkable carrier” shouldn’t be part or any honest or intelligent conversation about force projection, defense or ACs at large. But yet, here we are.

In the absence of actual floating carriers available to the Navy, are you guys really surprised that such grasping-at-straws arguments about islands being "unsinkable carriers" etc. are being put forward to smooth ruffled feathers?

Even in WW2 this was recognized as the language of the side that has lost the battle at sea against its adversary.

[Vivek K]

Vivek when every solution that the armed forces come up with involves crushing domestic industry and importing ridiculously imported junk, where is the money to build serious capability like the Chinese going to come from. It is so painful to see a nation celebrate 3 fighters when it has 300 others and can accelerate LCA production at Will.

Therefore India will never pose a serious offensive threat to Chicom. It will have a capable defense and missiles to take the battle to the enemy. Chicom knows this and any time it needs to score a few points, it takes up a portion of the border to remind us of the difference in military capabilities. It is time Indians stop fantasizing about acting like the US and face the reality. Being the largest importer comes with the reduced numbers and reduced serviceability rider attached.

[Cain Marko]

Sorry,didn't receive any warnings.
Let's just say that the lack of a supersonic maritime strike bomber,in the light of recent conflicts is a gap in our capability that must be rectified.It could be from anywhere,even B-52s welcomed!

Veteran analyst Peter Butowski in March this year wrote a report on the modernisation of the Ru strat. bombing fleet and their immense capabilities. Just one can carry 12 X 2500km range land attack/ maritime strike missiles. Our MKIs can carry just one BMos ASM on its centreline pylon,whereas one of the bomber types in the report can carry 3 on just one pylon. In addition,the range and endurance of such bombers vastly outranges even that of a long-legged MKI. The PLAN today possesses more warships and subs than even the USN,therefore in the light of these vast numbers ranged against us we have to possess weapon systems that give us a multiple advantage per platform. It's why the Rafale,an omni-capable multi-role fighter was acquired that could simultaneously carry out both anti-air and strike missions. One LRMS bomber could deliver a devastating saturation attack against a PLAN CBG or task force annhilating it in just ond strike.

Both the IAF and IN in the light of the PRC throwing down the gauntlet urgently such a capability, and as of yesterday an indigenous LR stealth strat. bomber programme must be started.
I trust that the objective intention of the post is understood for what it is ,not product peddling.

PS: I've said before,read history.How man carriers were sunk in WW2 and how many islanx bases in comparison? True,carriers give unmatched mobility,but in the IOR,LRMP with super and hypersonic missiles with huge ranges have dramatically increased the reach of such land/ island- based aircraft.We do not havf likf thexUSN expeditionary ambitions,if we did,I would advocate more carriers.

In either case it is unlikely that India will get a third carrier any time soon. As such the lrmps and fast bombers acting as missile carriers become a very useful prospect to keep Chinese ambitions at bay.

Alternatively, we need to have some long ranged subs that can sneak around and toss CMs as necessary. Possibly maintain a presence at crucial points for anti ship/carrier duties as well.

[vera_k]

Building a bomber would be a good way to prove an aero engine. Kaveri's probably too small for anything but a baby bomber, but the new engine for the AMCA could be proven using such a large aircraft.

[hnair]

Sorry,didn't receive any warnings.

Admin Note: Philip, dont go down this path! You just came back from a month long ban for introducing T22, Backfires, Lenin's cadaver etc as a solution for India's defense in EVERY goddamn thread. This is in addition to denigrating local weapon programs like LCA, Arjun etc before proposing a russian counterpart. I just checked and your two earlier warnings are still live. Consider this an informal warning, since the next formal warning will mean an automatic 3 month ban by an admin. C'mmon, we all know you can post nicer!

[Philip]

<POOF> Enough OT in this thread

Back to the bomber Q.Harpoons are subsonic.The US too has acknowledged the fact of this,inferiority to other current missiles and is developing its own supersonic/hypersonic anti-ship missiles in haste.As for extra carriers,I've said convert the 4 amphib designs into light carrier capable flat tops for the swing role.SoKo are doing that with their 30,000 t amphibs.NLCAs could operate from them as well. It would save a lot of money,requiring mostly the cost of aircraft for the vessels,modifying the flight deck and aircraft support infra. This could give us at least 3 more light CVs from the budget earmarked for 4 amphibs.,giving us a total of 5 flat tops instead of 3. Add to that a small number,say 8 to 12 LRMP strike aircraft ,and you have a v.potent force capable of dominating the IOR and reach into the ICS and other Indo- Pacific theatres .The island infra. improvement of airstrips/ bases for frontline aircraft ops. has reportedly already been approved by the govt. I've given earlier costs of how money saved on a $10-15B CV cost could be used to augment the sub fleet with at least a dozen subs,both nuclear and conventional AIP giving the IN a v.potent balanced inventory of warships,subs and aircraft.

Once again the value of island bases.Take Bahrein for example.A massive military base in the Gulf from where both US and UK expeditionary naval forces dominate the region,and Qatar,almost like an island geographically ,where the US has the massive Al Udeid air base housing F-22 and B-1B bombers too. In fact the Saudis want to build a canal on its border with Qatar, the Salwa canal and turn Qatar into an island becos of their spat!

There are over 570 islands in the ANC. The largest island in the Andamans ,Middle Island is 1500 sq.km. Great Nicobar ,largest in the Nicobar islands is approx. 1000 sq.km. Contrast this with Diego Garcia which operates all types of US strat. bombers including stealth B-2s.Just over 30 sq.km!

PS: Lakshadweep's area is much smaller than the ANC. However,the close proximity of Agatti,Bangaram,Kalputti,Pinnankara and Kavaratti islands could see a mega land reclamation linking project joining most of them,forming a huge crescent shaped landmass which could be developed not just for a major military outpost/ anchorage/ air base but for enhanced tourism,etc.