India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 03 Sep 2020 03:43

Jarita wrote:Where is the Odisha police when you need them?
I've never been a fan of this anti indigenous development, pro US base bit of confetti. However, there are plenty in the ether, that go gaga over his crazily vascillating statements.

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1301167979283898369

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1301168514267410432

His mum, VS Chandralekha, is one of Subramanian Swamy's old associates, and Subramanian Swamy has always been a fan of appeasing China [or, rather, not annoying China] at any price. That is where he is coming from.

All these calculations of GDP, industrialisation, etc, while important, are not as important as the single most important point-the will to fight, even with a small, well-equipped army. The Chinese are fighting a war of conquest and the Indians are fighting for the motherland, with short supply lines. Makes a whole lot of difference.

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Sep 2020 04:05

The Chinis cannot do another 62. That is given. However they can do quite a bit of damage, specially at reserves or standoff targets.

One thing I do wish is we had built up our capability to push the Chinis harder. More IAF sqd, Astra 2, desi standoff A2G in numbers, desi AWACS,155 MM & BM/CM.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 03 Sep 2020 04:13

LAC stand-off: Indian Army occupies heights, wrests upper hand at Pangong Tso

NEW DELHI: The Indian Army has quietly wrested the advantage in the Pangong Tso area — a sector witnessing heightened India-China military tensions — with the occupation of heights on the south bank of the lake and repositioning of forces on ridgelines in the fingers or spurs on the north bank.
Indian forces had been placed in a difficult position after Chinese troops established a heavy presence on the ridges or the Finger 4-8 area earlier in the year. Despite a small pullback, they had retained what was seen as a tactical edge on the ridgelines.
With neither military-to-military talks nor high-level diplomatic discussions yielding results and China’s pro-fessed commitment to dialogue failing to translate into tangible action, the Indian forces began to plan a response aimed at restoring parity that would neutralise the upper hand held by the intruding PLA troops.
Sources said the plan to “occupy” the heights on the south bank of Pangong Tso had been in the works and would have been operationalised irrespective of the attempted advance of Chinese troops in the area on the night of August 29. While it was imperative to prevent the PLA contingent from ascending, the Army used the provocation to put its plan into action as well.
Along with the south bank manoeuvre, a repositioning of Indian forces in the finger area on the north bank of the lake has completed the operation to snatch the advantage held by PLA since the military tensions erupted in early May.
Though India has not provided much details about the developments, sources said the balance at Pangong Tso stood drastically altered. The steady stream of angry commentary in Chinese “official” media and foreign ministry statements accusing India of “violating consensus” and urging that it immediately discipline frontline troops is evidence of Beijing’s discomfiture.
The view in Delhi is that the previous sweet talk about the need to see differences in the broader perspective of shared goals was simply aimed at fobbing off India and consolidating a changed status quo.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 03 Sep 2020 04:27

nam wrote:The Chinis cannot do another 62. That is given. However they can do quite a bit of damage, specially at reserves or standoff targets.

One thing I do wish is we had built up our capability to push the Chinis harder. More IAF sqd, Astra 2, desi standoff A2G in numbers, desi AWACS,155 MM & BM/CM.

One would need nehru for another 62. Indians did acquire non MoU signing real desi PM which was on top of the list. Hopefully, the rest will follow. Only Indian citizens can fix this acquisitions by creating a political issue and forcing it to be part of the election manifesto. Need more retired military folks to be vocal about it to enrage Indian citizens about it.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Sep 2020 04:30

If this picture is indeed true it is awesome, shows Magar and Gurung Hill in our control, the Spangur gap is between Magar and Gurung Hill and securing these two tops helps us make Chushul ALG secure(artillery assault notwithstanding)

https://twitter.com/AssaultArmoured/sta ... 0701358086

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Sep 2020 04:39

no more BS bravado

Global Times@globaltimesnews China state-affiliated media · Sep 1

The boundary between China and India has not yet been demarcated, so there have been problems. China will firmly safeguard its sovereignty and territorial integrity, and is ready to manage all kinds of issues through dialogue with the Indian side: Wang Yi twitter.com/globaltimesnew…

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Sep 2020 04:42

Thanks Chetak ji, we can probably start creating new maps(of course dip it in taj mahal chai decoction) showing this area has been under Raja Indra Verma since 2BC and we cant disengage from Magar and Gurung Hills

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 03 Sep 2020 05:38

Suraj wrote:Even Nitin Gokhale is aligned with statements from others now. Very interesting.

Not necessarily. He said the same things in his video on youtube which was posted here. He specifically denied India being on Black Top or Helmet Top in the video.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 03 Sep 2020 05:59

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-repor ... s-believes

China Provoked India in Latest Clash, U.S. Believes
The incident near the Pangong Tso Lake this week has deeply puzzled U.S. intelligence officials and analysts, who don’t understand why Beijing would ‘shoot itself in the foot.’

THE U.S. BELIEVES CHINA deliberately provoked India with a new incursion into contested territory earlier this week and that Beijing remains enraged that its local commander withdrew forces when a physical conflict appeared imminent, according to an American intelligence assessment.

[ READ: China, Pakistan Conspire on Afghanistan ]
The new details shared with U.S. News follow reports of a skirmish in recent days along the two nuclear powers' shared border, months after a deadly melee erupted in another contested region some 100 miles away. Both India and China blame the other for initiating the latest clash.

The U.S. believes Indian forces have prevented any loss of ground, according to a source familiar with the assessment who spoke on the condition of anonymity, following the latest faceoff, which Indian and Chinese officials revealed early Monday took place at the southern end of the Pangong Tso Lake. That remote region high in the Himalayas is considered to be within India's territorial control.

The Indian troops were better prepared to respond to the Chinese provocation, the U.S. believes, after bolstering their presence in northern India following the deadly June clash in the Galwan River Valley region that resulted in at least 20 Indian deaths and as many as 35 Chinese casualties. The assessment does not conclude that Chinese forces were the first to act provocatively in this case, but the U.S. has chosen to support India's side because of Beijing's past provocative behavior.

American intelligence officials and local analysts remain puzzled about the timing of the latest clash, which comes as China seeks to cool tensions – or has given the appearance it wishes to do so – and improve ties with India amid fears the latest violence has pushed New Delhi into closer cooperation with the U.S.

"We are staggered at the timing of the Chinese actions," according to the intelligence assessment, "but shouldn't complain either if Beijing shoots itself in the foot."

The State Department declined to comment on-record. A spokesperson speaking on the condition of anonymity said the latest skirmish serves as the latest example of "a clear pattern of Beijing acting increasingly aggressively, both domestically and abroad."

"The only way to stop these provocations is by standing up to Beijing," the spokesperson said. "From the Taiwan Strait to Xinjiang, from the South China Sea to the Himalayas, from cyberspace to international organizations, we are dealing with a Chinese Communist Party that seeks to repress its own people and bully its neighbors."

Chinese President Xi Jinping would have to have known about each of the latest clashes in advance due to the nature of Chinese military decisionmaking. U.S. intelligence officials now believe that he may have created a "cycle of provocations" and doesn't know how to extract the Chinese army without appearing to show weakness.

Beijing has scrambled in recent weeks to repair its relations with India, the fellow Asian economic powerhouse whose markets have become a signature prize of Chinese and American investment in recent months.

Analysts at the time believed Chinese forces did not anticipate the extent to which the June land-grab would enrage the Indian people, causing reverberations that left the central government in New Delhi with no choice but to escalate its response, which included banning Chinese apps from phones in India.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Sep 2020 08:40

How does US intelligence establish things like “ Beijing remains enraged that its local commander withdrew forces when a physical conflict appeared imminent, ” Not saying they’re wrong, but assuming they are correct, it implies they have espionage resources that are able to intercept internal PLA communication of this kind. Do we have the ability to intercept secure PLA radio traffic too ?

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 03 Sep 2020 08:51

^^^ not unlikely, but we certainly won't release that info. Remember, we had intercepts of calls between the top Pak Army generals during Kargil. Think of how long we must've had that wiretap up and running before that information got released.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Sep 2020 09:00

nam wrote:I just realized the first public reaction to our capturing of heights was by PLA WTC. It was not by Bejing.

I feel this was the act by PLA to force Bejing's hand. If PLA didn't want escalation, it would not have made the news public so quickly..

PLA could be itching for a "rapid localised victory", while Bejing doesn't want to push the apple cart over the clif..

Or, WTC commanders may be protecting their backsides by shifting blame on Beijing because they could face potential death sentence, by law, for conceding 'Chinese territory'.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 03 Sep 2020 09:12

chetak wrote:no more BS bravado

Global Times

The boundary between China and India has not yet been demarcated, so there have been problems.Wang Yi twitter.com/globaltimesnew…

Wow!

Our people were saying exactly the same thing for years, while Beijing kept silent. Now the tables have turned. It's unbelievable!!

Ordinary folks like me were neutered uptil 2014 ( I remember Rohit Vats' discussions on Aadhar roll out in 2011-12,if elections were allowed online via Aadhar Card, how local Congress/xxx goons would try to take away your card in exchange for water supply/ power/etc.)

Modi, despite many failings esp on economics and defence, is wat made Beijing say this. The man has a rare spine, and entire Asia is watching him with bated breath.

Our dear friends, the Pakis have stopped taunting us online....these days, their target seems to be Imran Khan..(never mind the Pakistanis, anyway)

Remember, just last week we were critical of Gen. Rawat.

When the leader is good, we must keep faith and have patience. I think we need to be supportive at this stage, work hard like good citizens.

The Modi era won't come again, as we have seen in our long and bloody history. He's a one off.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Sep 2020 10:02

He gave them a chance of peacf like ABV and bus diplomacy.Modi made an unscheduled Lahore visit to greet Sharif too.Rolled out a golden carpet for Chin emperor XI at A'bad and Mahabs.However,our MEA dropped the ball.The Chins hate religion.All his visits to India were at great spiritual/ religious sites.Look at China by comparison.What do the Chinks show you? Xian and terracotta warriors,the Great Wall,two military heritage sites ,nothing peaceful. India would've been better served had we shown XI our great military heritage,Chittorgarh and Jodhpur's Mehrana fort in Rajasthan,the Red Fort,Agra Fort,any of Shivaji's forts,etc. That would've registered more in his turd brain than what he saw which probably convinced him that we concentrated more upon religion than warfare and were easy meat for the devouring.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 03 Sep 2020 10:10

I hope Tawang and South Tibet are safe, while Ladakh is heating up. The Lizard has to get some land for saving face.
Gautam

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 03 Sep 2020 10:13

Philip wrote:He gave them a chance of peacf like ABV and bus diplomacy.Modi made an unscheduled Lahore visit to greet Sharif too.Rolled out a golden carpet for Chin emperor XI at A'bad and Mahabs.However,our MEA dropped the ball.The Chins hate religion.All his visits to India were at great spiritual/ religious sites.Look at China by comparison.What do the Chinks show you? Xian and terracotta warriors,the Great Wall,two military heritage sites ,nothing peaceful. India would've been better served had we shown XI our great military heritage,Chittorgarh and Jodhpur's Mehrana fort in Rajasthan,the Red Fort,Agra Fort,any of Shivaji's forts,etc. That would've registered more in his turd brain than what he saw which probably convinced him that we concentrated more upon religion than warfare and were easy meat for the devouring.

Wouldn't have mattered either way. Eleven does what eleven wants!

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 03 Sep 2020 10:19

Suraj wrote:How does US intelligence establish things like “ Beijing remains enraged that its local commander withdrew forces when a physical conflict appeared imminent, ” Not saying they’re wrong, but assuming they are correct, it implies they have espionage resources that are able to intercept internal PLA communication of this kind. Do we have the ability to intercept secure PLA radio traffic too ?

Surajji, the US is spending gazillions on intelligence every year. 2019 they spent more than 81 billion, even if a lot is wasted, we can assume a good percentage is giving good returns. The total Indian defense budget for 2019 is less than that.
Gautam

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Sep 2020 10:20

Suraj wrote:The wikipedia page on SFF has this blurb:
In 1975 a new rule pertaining to the SFF was issued, this prohibited the SFF from being deployed to within 10 km of the Indo-Chinese border unless under explicit instructions. This came about after several incidents in which SFF was found to be conducting unsanctioned cross-border raids and intelligence operations.

I guess that rule somehow got lost in a file somewhere.

Or they had explicit sanction.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 10:23

suryag wrote:If this picture is indeed true it is awesome, shows Magar and Gurung Hill in our control, the Spangur gap is between Magar and Gurung Hill and securing these two tops helps us make Chushul ALG secure(artillery assault notwithstanding)

https://twitter.com/AssaultArmoured/sta ... 0701358086

I think it is a much bigger things than just securing Chushul ALG.

Look at the stretch between Chushul, Dumchule La and Domcheck and see its alignment with G219, Rutog and Ngari. This area was ripe for Chinese mischief and the sealing of the Spanggur gap has been made such a thrust very difficult if not impossible.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Sep 2020 10:26

Pratyush wrote:
Suraj wrote:The wikipedia page on SFF has this blurb:

I guess that rule somehow got lost in a file somewhere.

Or they had explicit sanction.

No. The border was defined in 1947 when the Chinese agreed to it. The LAC is not the border. The SFF are operating outside of 10 KM of the defined Indo-Chinese border.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 10:27

Philip wrote:He gave them a chance of peacf like ABV and bus diplomacy.Modi made an unscheduled Lahore visit to greet Sharif too.Rolled out a golden carpet for Chin emperor XI at A'bad and Mahabs.However,our MEA dropped the ball.The Chins hate religion.All his visits to India were at great spiritual/ religious sites.Look at China by comparison.What do the Chinks show you? Xian and terracotta warriors,the Great Wall,two military heritage sites ,nothing peaceful. India would've been better served had we shown XI our great military heritage,Chittorgarh and Jodhpur's Mehrana fort in Rajasthan,the Red Fort,Agra Fort,any of Shivaji's forts,etc. That would've registered more in his turd brain than what he saw which probably convinced him that we concentrated more upon religion than warfare and were easy meat for the devouring.

Yeh ... MEA also made Modi wear vesti or Mundu or << whatever it is called>>

Btw, A'bad vizit had no spiritual/religious content.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 10:32

https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/statu ... 5076344832

After 36 hours in Ladakh, I can tell you with most certainty that what Indian Army did after preempting the Chinese at Pangong Tso is unprecedented. Even after 4 days, Chinese don’t know how to react. It has come as a shocker. Several strategic redeployments have been done since.

While the Chinese are reeling under shock of what happened around the Spanggur gap, Indian Army has done "several" strategic redeployment. Nice!

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 03 Sep 2020 10:38

Mort Walker wrote:
suryag wrote:BTW, would love to have pics of the PoWs
It is unlikely because if the conflict heats up, then IA PoWs could be used as propaganda. Better to show pictures and videos of Chinese troops retreating and of the area.

Showing pictures of PoWs is against the Geneva Convention.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 03 Sep 2020 11:13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3umUQ-VTS6g&t=26s ...gen diwedi talks about a ht above f4...is it audible? can gurus clarify

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 03 Sep 2020 11:14

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/statu ... 5076344832
After 36 hours in Ladakh, I can tell you with most certainty that what Indian Army did after preempting the Chinese at Pangong Tso is unprecedented. Even after 4 days, Chinese don’t know how to react. It has come as a shocker. Several strategic redeployments have been done since.
While the Chinese are reeling under shock of what happened around the Spanggur gap, Indian Army has done "several" strategic redeployment. Nice!

Am hearing heavy CAPS ongoing on LAC. All Forward bases have been activated

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Sep 2020 11:20

I thought he visited the Sabarmati ashram to experience MKG's spiritual essence. He wouldn't have been impressed with MKG's simplicity,spinning wheel,wooden clogs ( Chin poverts wore them),loincloth,etc! Instead we should've shown him Netaji and the INA museum,Indo- Japanese military alliance against the colonial master,to remind him that history may repeat,is repeating itself!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Sep 2020 11:31

g.sarkar wrote:I hope Tawang and South Tibet are safe, while Ladakh is heating up. The Lizard has to get some land for saving face.
Gautam

There has been significant IA movement into these areas in the last week or so. I would therefore say that the Pangong-Reqin La action has indeed been very well planned indeed.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 11:57

^^'Also Himachal and Uttrakhand have seen fresh deployment over the past week or so.

What this means is that the Spanggur gap project has been under works for a long time even if it was triggered by Chinese gambit around the Spanggur gap.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 12:07

Bhell ... ET has this to say

Troops hv taken up vantage points in all key areas from Daulat Beg Oldie (in the north) to Chumar (in the south)

Seems we have readjusted ALL along the LAC! Will update with link and all when I am back at my desk.

Begins to look more and more like a planned action than a spur of the moment action. No wonder the Chinese are befuddled and bissed.

idan · Post by **idan** » 03 Sep 2020 12:08

Keeping this alive for a long time will not help us - even preparing for a war and being in a state of preparedness means we are burning money. A live LAC means this will impose a recurring expense that will result in an exponential rise in the army’s revenue expenditure. That could be a strategy of China to keep India bleeding economically. Sooner we need to create a trap wherein PLA fires the first salvo and rest will be history!

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 03 Sep 2020 12:13

https://twitter.com/frontalassault1/sta ... 95330?s=21

Indian troops have taken vantage points all along LAC in Ladakh. From DBO to Chumar

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 03 Sep 2020 12:14

From reports, this operation was planned for a while now at the highest levels, and would've happened irrespective of whether the Chinese tried their move or not. We just used their attempt to ingress as a good excuse to justify the op.

The use of the SFF is also important to note here. The SFF is under RAW, not IA, which means that their deployment would've gone up the chain all the way to Doval at the very least for approval, and its highly unlikely Doval would've made that decision without Modi's direct say-so. We need to read the use of the SFF for what it is... a chidiya, direct from Modi to Eleven.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 03 Sep 2020 12:19

Guys ! Alot of things are happening in background. Not only Eastern Laddakh but keep your eyes on Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim, Uttrakhand, Himachal , J&K, Punjab, Rajsthan, Gujrat, Indian Ocean, SSC & Arabian Sea too.

....& 1 more thing, don't share any of our real time movement

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/130 ... 56609?s=20

Still not confirmed. I feel Shatrujeet is much better OSINT. But anyways since BRF is hell bent on quoting BABA, here goes.
Bookmarked the tweet, to refer whether it really happens. Will see a statistical approach on correctness of his tweets

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 03 Sep 2020 12:26

Shanmukh wrote:
Jarita wrote:Where is the Odisha police when you need them?
I've never been a fan of this anti indigenous development, pro US base bit of confetti. However, there are plenty in the ether, that go gaga over his crazily vascillating statements.

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1301167979283898369

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1301168514267410432
His mum, VS Chandralekha, is one of Subramanian Swamy's old associates, and Subramanian Swamy has always been a fan of appeasing China [or, rather, not annoying China] at any price. That is where he is coming from.

All these calculations of GDP, industrialisation, etc, while important, are not as important as the single most important point-the will to fight, even with a small, well-equipped army. The Chinese are fighting a war of conquest and the Indians are fighting for the motherland, with short supply lines. Makes a whole lot of difference.

Anti-Intelligence Mitra thinks he is god's gift to defence analysis.

After seeing his interventions on a few channels, I've come to the conclusion that he peddles some half-baked half-knowledged ideas stemming from muddled thinking, along with some demeaning comments cloaked under "I'm well meaning desk bhakt whom no one takes seriously because I'm not a pilot, I'm not an engineer, and because I'm gay" attitude.

Laughable actually. Lets not give <<favourite pronoun>> needless credence by quoting here.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 03 Sep 2020 12:29

Indian soldiers have now climbed to the dominating heights over their Dhan Singh Thapa post between ‘Finger-2’ and ‘Finger-3'.

Not Finger-4 as per TOI, which makes sense.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 900336.cms

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 12:31

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr
Indian troops take vantage positions along LAC in Ladakh

New Delhi: With trust levels at an all-time low, India is not taking any chances along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in eastern Ladakh, with troops moving to vantage positions all along the border to detect and deter ingress moves by China.

....
While ET has reported that Indian forces have taken positions at strategic heights of Chushul, including Rezang La, Rechin La and near Black Top, to take control of the southern bank of the Pangong Tso, sources said similar moves have been made all along the LAC in eastern Ladakh. “Troops have taken up vantage points in all key areas from Daulat Beg Oldie (in the north) to Chumar (in the south). These deployments are within our side of the border and have been undertaken to keep a check on any movements from the other side,” sources said.

....
Tensions in Eastern Ladakh are on a razor’s edge, with Indian troops at their highest level of alertness to thwart any further attempts by the Chinese to move in troops at new locations to create more flashpoints. Special attention is being focused on vulnerable areas like the Depsang plains, the Demchock sector and Chushul where Chinese troops have violated the LAC in the past as well.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 03 Sep 2020 12:50

I visited Nathu La about a week or two before the surprise visit of Dalai Lama to Tawang few years back. There was immense army buildup in Sikkim and very heightened state of alertness. I felt even the traditional border check into Sikkim was more rigorous than normal. Only when I later came to know about HH Dalai Lama's visit it all made sense.

IA has _institutionalised_ strategic and tactical troop deployments in northern and eastern border whenever it anticipates mischief by dlagon. Even in North East we would be ready for any mischief by non state actors via Myanmar side

So no need to be worried about being taken in for a surprise across our lengthy border. And neither is this contingent upon political leadership, CDS or army General. Such planning, decision making process and preparedness are institutionalised. Only the vision setting and sanction for major decisions (ex: use of SFF, etc) are dependent upon those at the helm.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 03 Sep 2020 13:12

While capturing the heights is a good step, I'm still wondering how IA will sustain the operation at those heights? Are soldiers rotated or do they stay there all the time and other things like encampments permanent or just temporary.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Sep 2020 13:20

Like Kargil , there are pathways for Humans and Mules to climb and these areas have access from the Tsaka La road.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 03 Sep 2020 13:22

ManuJ wrote:
Indian soldiers have now climbed to the dominating heights over their Dhan Singh Thapa post between ‘Finger-2’ and ‘Finger-3'.
Not Finger-4 as per TOI, which makes sense.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 900336.cms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3umUQ-VTS6g&t=26s ..gen diwedi is referring to this height/position...not clear apart from looking into f4 towards f8 where else does it look into...some pass whose name ( from gen diwedi) which i am unable to catch