India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Sep 2020 23:34

Suraj wrote:I just find it interesting that the US readily demonstrated its access to encrypted Chinese milcoms and even insight into Beijing's rage at PLA actions at the engagement frontier (I won't call it border). It's an interesting power play by Unkil to step in and say 'we hear what you're arguing about in the midst of this, and know what you really think too'.

Worth reading the paragraph in the US News website that reported the 'exclusive' - my interpretation is that the info came from india/indian sources passed onto the US, not SIGINT

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Sep 2020 23:37

Why would Indian sources pass something to US press and not Indian press ? The chain of revelations suggests it came from the US side and not the Indian one. If in fact Indian sources are talking to US people, we have a leaky problem...

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Sep 2020 23:38

India/Indian sources passed onto US intelligence who wrote a report which was shared with the 'US News' website.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Sep 2020 23:41

That is still a problem. What need to know basis does the US have ?

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 03 Sep 2020 23:43

Will Eleven Ping agree to discuss border now and settle it to save his rear end?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Sep 2020 23:45

Suraj wrote:That is still a problem. What need to know basis does the US have ?

?? We cooperate closely on China mil/intel matters and so many other things where there is mutual benefit. It's been like this for years now...

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Sep 2020 23:50

Sorry I don't agree. There's no reasoning here that lets me interpret that we were the source of that intercept, but that it instead came from Unkil.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 04 Sep 2020 00:09

Even the Burkha is singing the anti-China song. The world has officially turned upside-down

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... er-region/

RaviB · Post by **RaviB** » 04 Sep 2020 00:12

AdityaVM wrote:I have been browsing some cheen chat forums in mandarin and using Google translate to make sense of what they were saying when this gem of a thread popped out .

The idiots think they can steamroll Indian army and occupy all of northeast upto the Indian Ocean inorder to have access to Indian Ocean directly from what would then be Chinese territory without depending on any other country.

The level of delusions in that thread have to be seen to be believed. Intact that entire main page is a gold mine for understanding Cheen piskology.

Above thread link
https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=view ... 1&mobile=2

Main page link
https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=foru ... 1&mobile=2

Screenshots I have taken of the main post are not loading on BR for some reason. Can gurus please help. ?

Are you able to understand it? There's some lingo that those who want to read the forum should be familiar with. I had posted a long time back on this thread.

India = A3, Asan, hei san, black san, sange, third brother, sangui, black devil, etc.

USA is usually ugly country. Pakistan is minibus

Rest you'll probably figure out

BTW, this is pretty standard stuff. The best one so far was about marching to Mumbai to split India into two. In any case splitting India into several parts is their standard strategy. You'll notice phrases like "making India collapse due to its own contradictions".

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Sep 2020 00:20

Chinese defence minister requests meet with Rajnath. Clearly something has been agreed.. it might be temporary progress

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2020 00:25

Reported by one of the defense enthusiast.

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 7666988032

PLA accepts defeat as it deploys militia squads on border with India in Ladakh. Such a coward force just like Pak Army.

Is this a peace offering or a dodge?

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 04 Sep 2020 00:26

k prasad wrote:Even the Burkha is singing the anti-China song. The world has officially turned upside-down

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... er-region/

I was shocked at the report and read it twice to make sure that it was Burkha. She basically blamed China for the whole thing and did not play the usual nuclear armed neighbors line.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Sep 2020 00:28

Guys be careful with random OSINT and Defense handles on Twitter. They are notorious for posting stuff that can never be verified or confirmed by any official sources. We have no idea how much of what they post is real, fiction or psyops against the other side (which has its uses).

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 04 Sep 2020 00:29

shyamd wrote:Chinese defence minister requests meet with Rajnath. Clearly something has been agreed.. it might be temporary progress

any link or chaiwalla news?

John · Post by **John** » 04 Sep 2020 00:31

If you follow some of discussions within China it is interesting lot of anger towards the government as some even accuse them of taking bribes from Trump and doing this. As this whole endeavor hurts Chinese tech companies and further cements the domination of US tech giants which were scared (or shaking in the boots) because of Tiktok rise which according to them was on pace to be a trillion dollar company ( haha ok) but now will be worthless.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 04 Sep 2020 00:37

Backstabbing music starts playing.....

https://www.wionews.com/india-news/chin ... sco-325077

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 04 Sep 2020 00:40

shyamd wrote:
Suraj wrote:That is still a problem. What need to know basis does the US have ?
?? We cooperate closely on China mil/intel matters and so many other things where there is mutual benefit. It's been like this for years now...

There is cooperation and even sharing of SIGINT and ELINT particularly from the surveillance systems the Indian armed forces have bought from the US. However, there probably is corroboration from US intelligence.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 04 Sep 2020 00:41

darshan wrote:Backstabbing music starts playing.....

https://www.wionews.com/india-news/chin ... sco-325077

Rajnath needs to say no.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 04 Sep 2020 00:43

shyamd wrote:Chinese defence minister requests meet with Rajnath. Clearly something has been agreed.. it might be temporary progress

If they offer "status-quo-ante" and both sides withdraw, and then repeat this nonsense all over again next year, what would we have gained?

How do we ensure a durable agreement? Why should we withdraw from our advantageous positions (other than the fact that they are inhumane/impossible/super expensive to man through the winter)?

Does "status-quo-ante" also mean reversing all the commercial bans?

There are a lot of questions here. Since playing the Chinese from the Chinese play book has worked so well, we should continue to pretend to talk to them and go into talks with zero intent to budge from our claims which we should both enlarge and obfuscate (i.e. never be clear about claims).

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 04 Sep 2020 00:44

pankajs wrote:Reported by one of the defense enthusiast.

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 7666988032
PLA accepts defeat as it deploys militia squads on border with India in Ladakh. Such a coward force just like Pak Army.
Is this a peace offering or a dodge?

Did they hire Pakis as mercenaries who are experts at downhill skiing.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 04 Sep 2020 00:46

Report: Indian Army has deployed a mix of armoured and mechanized elements at Depsang Plains and another combat group at Chumar to counter any PLA retaliatory moves.

Chumur shouldnt even be a concern for India except as a point of attack. Shouldnt we attack this area from 3 side and then keep it? Seems to be more useful than Aksai as it provides a shorter path to Demchok from Sumdo. The only reason they seem to be attacking here is to increase the gap and make it difficult for us to attack from ukdungle side so that our links to Ladakh are reduced.

Lets do what is practical and forget these lines on the map. There will always be places where they can move in. If we dont move in other areas which are across the international boundary we will be at net loss. To give a poor cricket analogy you don't walk when you nicked the ball and the umpire didnt notice as sometimes decisions go against you. These things neutralize in the long run. If you walk all the time then there will be a net negative decision against. Hope the above made some sense.

It is China's responsibility to make us stick to our border. Its our job not to follow it. Vice versa is also true. The Chinese know this.

RajaRudra · Post by **RajaRudra** » 04 Sep 2020 00:49

shyamd wrote:Chinese defence minister requests meet with Rajnath. Clearly something has been agreed.. it might be temporary progress

Hope we will not be surrendering the gains on table talk. If we surrender the tops, the same tops will get occupied by chinese in couple of years. China is not trust worth and the document will not worth that piece of paper.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 04 Sep 2020 00:58

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/13 ... 6626503681

JUST IN: Chinese defence minister General Wei Fenghe has requested a meeting with his Indian counterpart @RajnathSingh. Both are in Moscow for the #SCO Summit. If it happens, it’ll be the highest level engagement amidst the ongoing #IndiaChinaStandoff.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 04 Sep 2020 01:13

Do the PLA have any way of reaching the south bank of Panggong So? I don't see any road apart from the road via Spanggur and over the road crossing blacktop (with over 100 hairpin turns) - if this road is shut then the PLA looses access to the entire south bank right? Until they build another road or reach it via boats from the north shore.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 04 Sep 2020 01:13

India should be very clear in terms of what our goals are. Now when we have a decent bargaining position and more importantly, have shown the Cheen the prospect of a nimbler and tactically superior IA doing better salami slicing of their controlled territory, we should aim to push home the advantage.

We should only agree to any settlement that includes a permanent, unequivocal demarcation of the border on the Eastern Ladakh. We don't have a big enough leverage to force Cheen to make a favorable settlement across all of Ladakh or on the Eastern front. Failing which, we should let all of LAC be undefined and accelerate reverse salami slicing.

Agreeing to April 2020 status quo, would be a step back. Not only we would need to relinquish all these strategic heights captured, we would not have imposed any cost on Cheen and they will likely come back and do the same salami slicing with better planning few years from now.

RaviB · Post by **RaviB** » 04 Sep 2020 01:14

hanumadu wrote:
Without the current context of what the chinese have been doing in the past few months and in general in the past few years, I would (and probably many others) find this explanation incredulous. The only other group of people that I know who demand respect and subservience from others with nothing to offer in return are muslims and especially pakistanis. And we know how many people find it hard to believe when we say what pakis truly are. Indians on the other hand are accommodating to a fault, both as individuals and as a nation.

But what is it that blinds the chinese to reality? Are the chinese people, in general, like that or is it the CCP?
In the case of muslims we know why they live in la la land. It's the book. What about the chinese? What is their book or books?

Normally irrespective of what your culture or your upbringing is, you eventually learn what is acceptable behaviour after a few thappads in the case of individuals. The chinese did not get such thappads yet, at least after they think they became supel powel. They need a few ASAP, for their own good.

I had done a very long post about the Chinese and how they perceive the world, and themselves, etc. earlier on this thread.

Hanumadu ji, if you or others are interested in understanding them a bit more (a lot of their actions begin to make complete sense), you can read my previous post here

Part 1 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2441143#p2441143

Part 2 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2441202#p2441202

Please also check out the Understanding the Chinese thread

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 04 Sep 2020 01:17

May have been posted already, but found another set of "tunnels" in Rutog (at the other end of Pangong So) - built with in the last 2 years.
https://zoom.earth/#view=33.397954,79.7 ... ayers=esri

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 04 Sep 2020 01:18

schinnas wrote:India should be very clear in terms of what our goals are. Now when we have a decent bargaining position and more importantly, have shown the Cheen the prospect of a nimbler and tactically superior IA doing better salami slicing of their controlled territory, we should aim to push home the advantage.

We should only agree to any settlement that includes a permanent, unequivocal demarcation of the border on the Eastern Ladakh. We don't have a big enough leverage to force Cheen to make a favorable settlement across all of Ladakh or on the Eastern front. Failing which, we should let all of LAC be undefined and accelerate reverse salami slicing.

Agreeing to April 2020 status quo, would be a step back. Not only we would need to relinquish all these strategic heights captured, we would not have imposed any cost on Cheen and they will likely come back and do the same salami slicing with better planning few years from now.

We also have collect from these mofos $20 Mil per jawan who was martyred and hand it over to the families. Is there a way to collect damages from them?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 04 Sep 2020 01:21

abhik wrote:Do the PLA have any way of reaching the south bank of Panggong So? I don't see any road apart from the road via Spanggur and over the road crossing blacktop (with over 100 hairpin turns) - if this road is shut then the PLA looses access to the entire south bank right? Until they build another road or reach it via boats from the north shore.

From the maps there is only one road
What IA can do is deploy IFGs on the southern banks and use it in direct fire mode against the PLA ships

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 04 Sep 2020 01:27

There is no need to settle now.

The PLA will re-arm and then when the world is distracted come again.

What India needs to do is to ensure they can fortify and hold the heights through winters.

Even it it takes $10M per hill to build bunkers, sensors and for warm huts. That is just $300M for 30 hills, the cost of two aircraft.

Any official settlement of the LAC as the IB will limit the free world's ability to free Tibet and XIanjing from the Nazi-like clutches of the CCP.

My dream is to have the Indian + Allied forces liberating the Uighur from the Slave Camps. Imagine Modi being the leader who ends persecution of Muslims by China

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 04 Sep 2020 01:31

nachiket wrote:Guys be careful with random OSINT and Defense handles on Twitter. They are notorious for posting stuff that can never be verified or confirmed by any official sources. We have no idea how much of what they post is real, fiction or psyops against the other side (which has its uses).

+786, a lot of them call themselves OSINT but the first 2 letters of OSINT stands for "Open Source" - what they are peddling are recycles news (with out quoting source), rumours, and straight up BS.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 04 Sep 2020 01:34

Most of the so-called OSINT handles are in reality, an abbreviation for "Only S*** Intel", pardon my french!

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 04 Sep 2020 01:34

Mort Walker wrote:
darshan wrote:Backstabbing music starts playing.....

https://www.wionews.com/india-news/chin ... sco-325077
Rajnath needs to say no.

Rajnath is in Russia for next 3 days sealing the deal for AK 203 rifles (10 Lakh needed).

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 04 Sep 2020 01:45

Keenly watch the developments post Raksha Mantri's visit to Moscow, EAM attends a BRICS Foreign Minister's meeting over the weekend followed by a SCO Foreign Minister's meeting on the 10th. Consequently, a closed door QUAD virtual meeting is being mooted for late September. If there is one thing that the CCP completely hates, it is groupings. I won't be surprised if the Taiwan question props up, One China is how we perceive China's cartography.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 04 Sep 2020 02:14

Deleted

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Sep 2020 02:17

Mort and SBajwa, move your posts to the Small arms thread. They have no relevance here.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Sep 2020 02:41

The fact that Chini request to RM has been made public, indicates the RM will meet the Chinis.

Last time it was refused and was not made public. Chinis would be asking either threatening to attack or ask for a face saver deal. Looks like our move was done in time before the BRICS/ SCO meet ups.

Do we know if PLA Chief of Staff or Chinis CDS has visited the LAC? There seems to be no news of a military heavy weight visiting the frontline.. while our Chief visited Chusul today at those heights!

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 04 Sep 2020 03:08

RaviB wrote:
hanumadu wrote:
Without the current context of what the chinese have been doing in the past few months and in general in the past few years, I would (and probably many others) find this explanation incredulous. The only other group of people that I know who demand respect and subservience from others with nothing to offer in return are muslims and especially pakistanis. And we know how many people find it hard to believe when we say what pakis truly are. Indians on the other hand are accommodating to a fault, both as individuals and as a nation.

But what is it that blinds the chinese to reality? Are the chinese people, in general, like that or is it the CCP?
In the case of muslims we know why they live in la la land. It's the book. What about the chinese? What is their book or books?

Normally irrespective of what your culture or your upbringing is, you eventually learn what is acceptable behaviour after a few thappads in the case of individuals. The chinese did not get such thappads yet, at least after they think they became supel powel. They need a few ASAP, for their own good.
I had done a very long post about the Chinese and how they perceive the world, and themselves, etc. earlier on this thread.

Hanumadu ji, if you or others are interested in understanding them a bit more (a lot of their actions begin to make complete sense), you can read my previous post here

Part 1 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2441143#p2441143

Part 2 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2441202#p2441202

Please also check out the Understanding the Chinese thread

Thanks RaviB. I read your posts and other members' posts before. I read them again now and they make so much more sense.

I guess the rest of the word should apply the same treatment to them as they think of applying to others. Slap them every so often so they don't get uppity.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Sep 2020 03:10

I am now convinced the moves were done to get the Chinis to talk to the RM during this visit. And the RM is now carrying the leverage, with our troops overlooking the Chini position.

So far we were trying to convince the Chinis. Now let's see if we let the Chinis off with a face saver..

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 04 Sep 2020 03:30

Suraj wrote:India Captured Strategic Outposts in Stealth Move Against China

India triggered the latest clash with China on their Himalayan border by executing a stealth night-time operation to claim strategic outposts offering a clear view of troop movements in disputed territory, according to Indian officials with knowledge of the matter.

In what they called India’s first offensive move since the conflict began in May, thousands of soldiers climbed up mountain peaks for about six hours to claim the vantage points along the south bank of Pangong Tso -- a glacial lake roughly the size of Singapore. The action was taken to counter what India saw an intrusion by Chinese forces, the officials said, asking not to be identified due to rules on speaking to the media.

This is a very strange article, particularly because it comes from an otherwise reliable journalist, Sudhi Ranjan Sen. Thousands of soldiers climbing up these peaks? Where is the real estate for such a large scale move? Three units were reported to have participated in the action; this would mean that all 3 units were fully used. Even if we consider that arms, ammo, temporary housing and provisions were carried up, the number seems excessive considering the final number who would be stationed there - maybe 1 Coy at each post?

The last para is also rich - quotes Brahma Chellaney as saying that Modi would be under pressure to react to Chinese aggression, as a way of justifying the events. As though the Chinese provocation doesn't justify adequate reprisal.

Looks like Bloomberg mixed and matches statements taken at different times and contexts to create an article - creative editing!