India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 12 Sep 2020 01:03

I dont see how China will voluntarily go back to pre-June positions.
They painted a location with the China map around finger 4 and publicised those pictures 2 monts ago. They also published a grave-site with about 60+ black gravestones with Chinese inscriptions on it- for the killed-in-action Chinese soldiers. If China retreats and those locations fall back into Indian hands, the publicity generated from that will be very telling on the current CCP leadership- imagine Indian soldiers walking over the Chinese map around finger 4; or Indian soldiers hovering around the gravestones of Chinese soldiers- the impact of a few such pictures will be a permanent symbol of China's impotence and humiliation in this conflict in spite of fielding 3-4 well-armed divisions with air assets.

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 12 Sep 2020 01:03

Interesting statement from Atul Aneja at around the 9.15 min mark, where he claims that the Chinese are willing to disengage from their depth areas, rather than from the frontlines, because the former doesn't appear to be a sign of concession to their domestic audience (I assume he means Xi's detractors in the CCP). If that is true (and I have not seen any other corroboration of that claim), it seems that they are not interested in giving battle, at least this time around. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcQ_iDyilpg

Lohit · Post by **Lohit** » 12 Sep 2020 01:17

Anoop wrote:Interesting statement from Atul Aneja at around the 9.15 min mark, where he claims that the Chinese are willing to disengage from their depth areas,

Whatever move China makes or noises it creates, to "go back to normal" will have zero impact on NaMo led India.

Think of Pakistan. Modi landed in Lahore to touch Sharif' mother's feet. He allowed ISI to come on Indian soil to investigate attack on Pathankot. When he sensed the great betrayal by Pakistan, he has turned away from them and is busy burying them ever since. Under him there can be no rapproachment with Pak, only its neutering and defanging.

Galwan, with its barbed maces in the middle of Covid and multiple betrayals after that - there is no going back to normal or trusting Chinese ever, only offensive and defensive countering, till at least NaMo is at helm of affairs.

All Delhi based China think tanks and "experts" should consider searching for alternate employment.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Sep 2020 01:23

suryag wrote:Williams Gurung and Magar tops were lost to PRC in the 62 conflict those are with us now

The Chinese had vacated them after the war though, along with Rezang La. We did not occupy them again till now.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 12 Sep 2020 01:30

Have to gone past 1962 positions they reached before this? Any positions offensively significant?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 12 Sep 2020 01:33

[Documentary of 1962, its got some maps too

] Battle of Chushul : 20 Lancers action

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 12 Sep 2020 01:37

NAchiket Sir yes, basically we had these two tops(will leave the other ones out as I frankly dont have enough credible info on our ownership) as the two flanks around the spangur gap overlooking Chushul ALG, with these back in our hands we can perhaps consider opening that ALG.

Mandeepsajwan · Post by **Mandeepsajwan** » 12 Sep 2020 01:45

https://www.theindianhawk.com/2020/09/j ... china.html

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 12 Sep 2020 01:49

Jeff M. Smith Retweeted
Richard Rossow @RichardRossow

India is doubling down on a key asymmetrical advantage vis-a-vis China: Building security partnerships w/ powerful nations.

India: U.S., Japan, Australia, Vietnam, France, Britain, etc.

China: Pakistan

Bilats, trilats, Quad. Things that concern Beijing the most.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 12 Sep 2020 02:20

suryag wrote:Williams Gurung and Magar tops were lost to PRC in the 62 conflict those are with us now

Interesting names, these are hills not tops I'm guessing are named after common Gorkha surnames Gurung and Magar. Wonder what the history behind this is.

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Sep 2020 03:03

Anoop wrote:Interesting statement from Atul Aneja at around the 9.15 min mark, where he claims that the Chinese are willing to disengage from their depth areas,

Not surprising. They had no intention of fighting a war. The PLA wanted to blackmail us in to stopping the road works. And they assumed we will get "scared". Galwan clash created a mess.

Even if they did fight a war and win new areas, the biggest issue for them is the need to guard the line. Cannot afford to leave it empty, because we will move in to the areas we lost.

The PLA wants the glory and glamour of talking on TFTA USA, on a sunny Eastern seaboard. Not getting tangled with 1/5 of GDP country on a remote frozen landscape!

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 12 Sep 2020 03:14

Jarita wrote: ...

I think Gobar times is entirely focused on Indian audiences. How did we ever lose any territory to these things? Shame on us.

+1

More and more they are looking like Saddam’s Iraq with Bagdad Bob.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Sep 2020 03:23

hnair wrote:Since siachen started in 1978, pakis have inducted nucular weapons, nucular missiles, badmash/dus%/dimmy/pirni/mushy, Colin Powell, 80 odd Effsolahs, 500 AMRAAMs, 150 Thundarss, Agostas (with handicap parking permits), Erieyes, IL 78s,100s of surplus Bradleys, Turkish prop-UAVs etc. And they have shown enough foolishness to let go of economic sense and instead pick up serious fire fights with India and for zero strategic objectives.

But to this day, Siachen is way out of reach for them, thanks to hard fighting men from all parts of India, who wait patiently for decades in the snow for them to show up.

Does India plan to just defend its currently occupied territory or is there an impulse to recover what was lost, GB for example? Or have we just give up on that. If not, then what Chola and others are saying makes sense. The longer we wait, the more difficult it will get - that much is obvious. China might not be able to drop a CBG on the Himalayas but it could certainly strengthen its/TSP positions in GB and make any such ideas, pipe dreams. Taking an offensive stance will be even harder.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 12 Sep 2020 03:28

SriKumar wrote:I dont see how China will voluntarily go back to pre-June positions.
They painted a location with the China map around finger 4 and publicised those pictures 2 monts ago. They also published a grave-site with about 60+ black gravestones with Chinese inscriptions on it- for the killed-in-action Chinese soldiers. If China retreats and those locations fall back into Indian hands, the publicity generated from that will be very telling on the current CCP leadership- imagine Indian soldiers walking over the Chinese map around finger 4; or Indian soldiers hovering around the gravestones of Chinese soldiers- the impact of a few such pictures will be a permanent symbol of China's impotence and humiliation in this conflict in spite of fielding 3-4 well-armed divisions with air assets.

Not our problem, is it?

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 12 Sep 2020 04:21

^^ Is there an implication anywhere that (i) it is a problem, and (ii) it is our problem? (All I was saying is that they probably will not retreat inspite of any agreements they profess to agree with, and even if they retreat from some areas, they will not retreat from other areas. Whether this is a problem or a God-sent opportunity is a different question).

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 12 Sep 2020 06:37

SriKumar wrote:^^ Is there an implication anywhere that (i) it is a problem, and (ii) it is our problem? (All I was saying is that they probably will not retreat inspite of any agreements they profess to agree with, and even if they retreat from some areas, they will not retreat from other areas. Whether this is a problem or a God-sent opportunity is a different question).

Relax, I was just enjoying the fact that the Chinese are stuck due entirely to their own stupidity.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 12 Sep 2020 06:54

williams wrote:
We have not reversed anything sir, we are just doing defensive maneuvers to avoid any further Chinese mischief. Something we should have done long before in here and in other areas. This 5 point agreement is not an agreement. It is just a diplomatic statement of intent. The danger here is the Chinese stepping forward 3 steps and going back 1 step. We have to watch this very carefully.

I can understand where you are coming from - to celebrate the recovery of Kailash Ridge, we first have to acknowledge that we lost it... and we have relied on the fact that the Chinese never physically occupied the locations to mean that we recovered control when they withdrew after overrunning the ridges in 1962. But the reality is that we had, at best, a highly tenuous control but could not really acknowledge as much without losing our claim on that territory.

Let me expand on this point further - think of all that we have learnt about the Patrol Points. We know that they are limits of patrolling, usually going up to a line that the Chinese withdrew behind in 1962. These PPs are carefully designed to not provoke a hostile Chinese response, and stop short of our claim to LAC. They are, in fact, a legalism designed to support our claimed LAC. But what kind of control do we really exert? We know that one of the PPs is at Finger 8. For years, decades really, we are only able to patrol up to that PP when the Chinese are in a mood to let us. The same applies to PPs 10 through 13, where they block us at will at Bottleneck. Now think about the permanent ITBP station at Burtse. About 40 km or so as the crow flies from the Indian LAC, and supposedly well inside Indian territory. There are newspaper reports from not very long ago of Chinese destroying the ITBP post at Burtse. Heck, in 2012 they camped right outside Burtse for weeks on end. One big reason? To show who is really in control. So the reality is that India was extremely chary, until this recent proactive move, to exercise more than just a tenuous control over territory it claimed. A lot more needed to be in place, like Rohtang Tunnel and DSDBO road and the upcoming road over Saser La.

Edited later - deleted the last paragraph which did not come out the way I wanted it to.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Sep 2020 07:22

The PRC's Himalayan actions are partly keeping us heavily engaged at high cost ,but more stratrgically blindsided as its naval armada relentlessly grows threatening a large permanent presence in the IOR out of Gwadar,Djibouti,H'tota,etc. Right now our joker in the pack is the IN which swiftly fespatch elements of the PLAN should the balloon go up. The sooner the ANC infra is improved ,the greater our ability to interdict PRC shipping and the PLAN from ingressing into the IOR at the Malacca chokepoint.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 12 Sep 2020 07:58

Posting is as it is excellent analysis on the ground realities and expected scenario outcomes from current situation :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-hcb9BKlac

Summarizing :

Two front war is a reality, it has to be well gamed with all the way up to escalation ladder. Following outcomes are possible in present context in near term:

1) Pakistan due to weak economy( bad relations with Arab firends, FATF etc.) , let china do the heavy lifting and they keep on maintaining temperature at the LC by infiltration damages.
2) Pakistan decides this is opt moment to strike, engineer pulwama kind of situation and put Indian government on back foot, if India responds then onus is on India and they will pretend to responding to indian aggression. Chinese are always there in this scenario.
3) Statelmate with china as it is and Chinese don't move an inch, India does counter moves. Pakistan is encouraged to nibble something /diversion attack in Northern Ladakh etc., if things escalate it will open up in another areas. (Most likely)
4 China opens up another front in north Kashmir, this is the worst case scenario. We will have to look into all the angles including nu clear.

Two front scenario means one front to hold and one to attack, not necessarily attacking on both the fronts.
China will not accept status quo, status quo is akin to defeat for them. They will not rest without some gains that is a given.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 12 Sep 2020 08:33

if i was modi , i would have declared we have occupied some of our territory illegaly occupied by china post 1962 war.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 12 Sep 2020 08:35

What's the need for Modi to do it, give credible info with pictures and video to few media outlets and let them create the story around it

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 12 Sep 2020 08:57

Long time lurker but still learning so maybe my observations may not be correct but I am a bit confused by the circular logic being presented by people propagating the idea that india should instigate a short sharp war immediately. Also please pardon the longish post.

The reason being given for a war right now is that right now we have advantage and in long run hans will have definite advantage and we will be lagging behind. In the same breath they give the argument that the great Hans will bide their time and do some hanky panky later if we don’t teach them a lesson right now. Also the same people are pretty confident that if the war runs longer Hans have great advantage due to their huge MIC and India will loose in that case as well. All seem to be valid points independently but when I look at all of them together they stop making sense.

Hear me out for a second, let’s say they are right and desh does exactly what they propose, now two different scenarios arise.
1. Desh initiates the war right now and maybe even wins the short phase handsomely. What is stopping the Hans from dragging the conflict longer or a turning it into a full scale conflict. By all open sources IA is prepared and stocked for a month at max. What happens the next month aka oct? Since as per these same posters great Hans have a mighty MIC which will kick in and desh will start loosing, how will this play out?
2. Scenario 2, it is indeed a short conflict and IA kicks the hans out and gains some(or maybe a lot more) territory. But at the same time great hans are also known for their ability to bide their time and in long run it has already been concluded that SDREs will be at disadvantage as compared to hans. So what’s stopping great hans to do what SDREs did to them at a later point of time when hans have become the great dragon they are supposed to be and desh has turned into a cat from a tiger, hain ji?

Also above I read some poster Pooh Poohing IAs maneuver to occupy Kailash range calling it purely defensive as IA just got back what’s ours, by that logic even taking back all of POK and gosthana will not satisfy them as it will be called taking back what’s ours.

Having said that, I am not saying we can’t do better or improve on things or we are perfect. I personally think the government and armed forces are trying to handle the situation to the best of their abilities and I also feel pretty confident that desh will come out a winner in all this hoopla. So far the government and the armed forces have been acting and behaving in a manner which conveys the message loud and clear that ours is a peace loving country but at the same time is not scared of a fight and are confident in our capabilities. And the best response is being given by our people who are busy with rhea and SSR hoopla and kinda give the message that they don’t give a chit about the the empty threats the mighty hans have been making

Jai ho!!

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 12 Sep 2020 10:01

Sidhant wrote:I personally think the government and armed forces are trying to handle the situation to the best of their abilities and I also feel pretty confident that desh will come out a winner in all this hoopla. So far the government and the armed forces have been acting and behaving in a manner which conveys the message loud and clear that ours is a peace loving country but at the same time is not scared of a fight and are confident in our capabilities.

+1

Though I think the reason there won't be a full scale conflict is because we aren't their primary target. They'd rather take back Taiwan and dislodge unkill and fulfill whatever mandate heaven is sending these days. I also wouldn't want us to fight them in a full scale conflict and waste our blood fighting american battles for them.

I think the chinis are about 5-10 years away from being able to take on the americans and americans aren't going to wait around for that. Chinis too don't seem stupid enough to waste their momentum fighting us in a full scale war

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 12 Sep 2020 10:38

Sidhant wrote:Long time lurker but still learning so maybe my observations may not be correct but I am a bit confused by the circular logic being presented by people propagating the idea that india should instigate a short sharp war immediately. Also please pardon the longish post.

...

Jai ho!!

To summarize your thought process, India will loose onlee so why bother. Watch saas-bahu that makes us appear stronger and carefree in-front of the the great Hans.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 12 Sep 2020 10:48

For all the talk of starting war (or one starting on its own), I believe the following are a reality check.

1. Neither side really wants war at this stage, but will react when pushed beyond a red line. Its good that we have declared what our red lines are.
For China, it would be (IMO) IA crossing territory that we have never patrolled. Short of crossing red lines, there will be provocations, in the hope
that the other side will react and be declared the aggressor. Chinese provocations had yielded diminishing returns and now negative returns, because it led to our actions of 29/30th Aug. I think both sides are in a new status quo.

2. China cannot start a war with only 2 divisions in Ladakh. They have not activated their 76 & 77th Army of the Western Theatre (4 more divisions), not brought in a 3rd division from Xinjiang, or activated any formations against the North East. Moving any new formation to the LAC will take the PLA a month. We now have 2 divisions in Eastern Ladakh, backed up by armour and can move most of 2 more divisions at short notice. Once winter starts, we can actually deploy more acclimitised infantry currently on the LOC, or with RR formations (since Pak is not showing any sign of heating up the LOC and militancy in the valley is at its lowest for some time). To add to the PLA's conundrum, a large proportion of their infantry is in the finger area, of little strategic value.

3. The terrain and altitude favour the defender. Unless there is overwhelming superiority in firepower and manpower, a defender cannot be
dislodged from heights they are dug into. Heights can be seized by surprise - which we have done and have prevented the Chinese from doing
(or the defenders incompetence - which there was to some extent in 1962). If there's a war its going to be for individual heights or ridges. We aren't going to seize the G-219 highway, or liberate Aksai Chin, any more than China is going to cut off the road to DBO or occupy Leh. If we can reach the pre 1962 line in Ladakh, that would count as a significant victory.

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 12 Sep 2020 10:53

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 12 Sep 2020 11:02

vimal wrote: To summarize your thought process, India will loose onlee so why bother. Watch saas-bahu that makes us appear stronger and carefree in-front of the the great Hans.

Saar, I think you summarized my thought process wrong. I would request you to read my thought process again Dhanyawaad.

Mandeepsajwan · Post by **Mandeepsajwan** » 12 Sep 2020 11:14

After 4-day search, body of LeT terrorist fished out of stream in Srinagar
https://www.theindianhawk.com/2020/09/a ... nagar.html

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Sep 2020 11:53

vimal wrote:
Sidhant wrote:Long time lurker but still learning so maybe my observations may not be correct but I am a bit confused by the circular logic being presented by people propagating the idea that india should instigate a short sharp war immediately. Also please pardon the longish post.

...

Jai ho!!
To summarize your thought process, India will loose onlee so why bother. Watch saas-bahu that makes us appear stronger and carefree in-front of the the great Hans.

Precisely. Talk about shivering in dhoti... Having said that the current situation of far better than it ever was since 62 it seems. So perhaps it's good enough if we consolidate the gains made, for now.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Sep 2020 12:17

nam wrote:
Anoop wrote:Interesting statement from Atul Aneja at around the 9.15 min mark, where he claims that the Chinese are willing to disengage from their depth areas,
Not surprising. They had no intention of fighting a war. The PLA wanted to blackmail us in to stopping the road works. And they assumed we will get "scared". Galwan clash created a mess.

Even if they did fight a war and win new areas, the biggest issue for them is the need to guard the line. Cannot afford to leave it empty, because we will move in to the areas we lost.

The PLA wants the glory and glamour of talking on TFTA USA, on a sunny Eastern seaboard. Not getting tangled with 1/5 of GDP country on a remote frozen landscape!

This might have been initially true but as we counteract their moves, the enemy also changes Strategy, if they can get away and feel they have a high probability of winning they will go to war.

The basic mistake we make is that we impose our values on the Chinese and Pakis, these are 2 more morally Bankrupt states who don't respect any treaty but want 1 side to alone adhere to them, all that counts for these is probability of winning. They will never want or have desire to be peaceful unless they think the adversary is soo strong that it is better to leave them alone.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 12 Sep 2020 12:25

Deans wrote:For all the talk of starting war (or one starting on its own), I believe the following are a reality check.

Currently we have demonstrated that India is no pushover. We have also made it amply clear to the Han that we cannot be spoken to in a condescending voice. If the Chinese foreign affairs spokes persons are analysed, during the Doklam incident, daily attacks in the media "India will be destroyed, They are underestimating us Blah blah", during this incident they are more subdued. We are also seeing a lot of videos to showcase the strength of Chinese and the modernisation of their army meant for internal consumption. We did not see these during Doklam. So Chinese need this distraction, if internal dissent grows, they will take things kinetic. So what can we do

1. New Status Quo: We must take all measures to promulgate Chinese as the bad guys. All kinds of social attacks. Uiygurs, Mongols, Taiwan, Australians, IP theft, loan diplomacy, Shielding pak and N Korea and the biggest of them all 'Wuhan Virus'. They are the new global pariah. Snatch away their business. Form alliance all around them, hem them in. Even promote the exploration of Oil in SCS with Vietnam and co. We have to grab this initiative and never give it back.

2. Salami slice at the LAC: We are occupying the heights, dont limit this to Ladhak, move along the border. Slice the territory, esp in winter when their plans will grind to a halt. As we have the heights it is easier for us to do this. They are not going to do anything in winter when all they hold is the lower positions.

3. CPEC: India needs to take back a part of PoK or Aksai through which CPEC runs. Once this is done, we must agree to allow chinese to use it for a small fee (like 0.1% tax) This is very important so that we can squeeze when required, but since we are open to them using it, they would think twice before attacking it as it is not worth it. In all this , Cpec and Pok is the key to India in controlling China.

4. Taiwan: We must have a consulate in Taiwan and invest $ 60B in Taiwanese industry. Modi should visit Taiwan and push for their increased representation in UN and other groups. Every time China promotes or supports Paki, we need to reciprocate with Taiwan. Announce that One China policy is not tenable.

The most important thing is we continue to challenge Chinese hegemony and beat them once in a while. This is our strategic objective.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Sep 2020 12:34

The reason I post this it was the same strategy in 1959, China had no initial intention of War, but our leadership and Government of day started believing it. by 1962 while the Chinese had completely built up thier miltary forces to which we respond to with small bands of units in miltary unsound locations without backup in an unfamiliar terrain.

As long as the Chinese evaluate our military capability is strong and there is strong possibility of us to counteract their moves and we have strong Nuclear deterrent, and the Chinese see high probability of loss of territory and even POW's who can be flashed through Chinese social media - for that our forces need to be aggressive enough to make the Chinese think it is not worth it, it is good the Sticks and stones treaties are in the dust bin.

Pakis can keep LOC active since they dont care for Kashmir and have cannon fodder to be killed while provoking a bigger country- good for H&D- they love Indo-Pak Hyphenation and thier leaders love to lecture to the Indian public of their martial powers , for the Chinese to be engaged in skirmishes with what they perceive a smaller and inferior country contentiously will be a huge loss in H&D and they would hate Indo-China Hyphenation, so they will not opt for long term LOCing of LACing which also cost them huge in the long term.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 12 Sep 2020 12:47

Cain Marko wrote:
vimal wrote:
To summarize your thought process, India will loose onlee so why bother. Watch saas-bahu that makes us appear stronger and carefree in-front of the the great Hans.
Precisely. Talk about shivering in dhoti... Having said that the current situation of far better than it ever was since 62 it seems. So perhaps it's good enough if we consolidate the gains made, for now.

Either you have not read my post in its entirety or you think that GOI and armed forces are dhoti shivering too. Coz in my post I have clearly mentioned that I fully support and agree with the way GOI and armed forces are handling the current situation. But then it sounds like anybody who is not instigating an immediate war is shivering in his dhoti. Bhai Wah, way to counter arguments.

Pray tell me who really is shivering in their dhotis, people who want desh to go to war right at this moment coz they are scared that mighty hans will kick our backsides later, or the people who appreciate the cool, calm, composed and methodical manner in which GOI and our armed forces are handling the situation?

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Sep 2020 14:09

Aditya_V wrote: This might have been initially true but as we counteract their moves, the enemy also changes Strategy, if they can get away and feel they have a high probability of winning they will go to war.

The basic mistake we make is that we impose our values on the Chinese and Pakis, these are 2 more morally Bankrupt states who don't respect any treaty but want 1 side to alone adhere to them, all that counts for these is probability of winning. They will never want or have desire to be peaceful unless they think the adversary is soo strong that it is better to leave them alone.

Ofcourse, if the Chinis feel they have a window of opportunity to force a victory, they will. If they feel India will stop after a quick defeat, they will attack. Push our line back and declare ceasefire.

The biggest difference between now and 62 is Chinis are not sure, we will STOP. 62 is taunted as a victory, because we didn't continued the war.

So to prevent the Chinese to start a war, we need to openly send out the message that we will fight all along the LAC with airpower and not accept defeat. We will carry out counter offense on their side of LAC.

It will not be a defensive war. And the Chinese have to guard the entire 3400KM line.

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Sep 2020 14:11

Given we are a status quo power, our biggest fault is not having a dominating airpower. We waste money on keeping people employed in DPSU and imports..

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Sep 2020 14:30

True unfortunately parts of Indian media and some brainless parts of our opposition are compromised and openly stating Chinese propaganda.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 12 Sep 2020 14:34

nam wrote:Given we are a status quo power, our biggest fault is not having a dominating airpower. We waste money on keeping people employed in DPSU and imports..

Asking Gurus here , what is the reason for 42 Squadrons. I mean such a strange number. Why not 50 or even aim for 100. Every squadron need not have Gen 5 . Good number of Gen 3 with upgrades also fine.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Sep 2020 15:11

nam wrote:The biggest difference between now and 62 is Chinis are not sure, we will STOP. 62 is taunted as a victory, because we didn't continue the war.

So to prevent the Chinese to start a war, we need to openly send out the message that we will fight all along the LAC with airpower and not accept defeat. We will carry out counter offense on their side of LAC.

That's what the Vietnamese did in 1979. The Chinese lost over ~8000 soldiers in that and possibly twice that number injured. There were heavy casualties on the Vietnamese side too but they gave the PLA a pasting, the effects of which reverberate in China even today for following reasons:

The Chinese never revealed casualty figures and buried their dead soldiers in the remote hillside along the Vietnamese border, like it has happened now in Galwan or earlier in 1962 during which also China suffered heavy casualties
They were mostly teen soldiers, again like what we have seen now
Captured Han soldiers, later returned by Vietnam, were publicly shamed and dismissed from Service.
Veterans have said that PLA under-estimated the strength of the Vietnamese army and was forced to carry out the Paramount Leader Deng's desire to 'teach a lesson'. Exactly a similar thing has happened now in Ladakh. The orders came directly from Xi.
The resentment among the PLA soldiers for the way they have been treated so casually is for real. Even after Galwan, there have been murmurs in China including among analyst groups that not revealing casualty figures and not honoring the dead and leaving the information to be gleaned from Indian sources were unprofessional
Until recently, PLA didn't even have a veterans affairs department and there have been many protests all over China by the veterans. These protests increased manifold after the restructuring/downsizing of PLA by Xi in c. 2015 because the size of the veterans increased even though many were absorbed in the People's Armed Police (PAP) and the Party Militia. There was an embarrassing protest, a couple of years back, in front of CMC, HQ in Beijing right when an international defense forum was being hosted
Last year, China clamped down on the 40th year commemoration by the veterans of the Vietnam war.

There was a question earlier here as to what happens if we move east, now that the Chinese graves are there. I am not sure if the graves are there in Gosthana or in the Xinjiang desert. But, the CCP does not care for its fallen soldiers, just like its 'Iron Brother'. The Vietnam border graveside is an example, uncared for, unattended for in a remote and inaccessible place. So, graves, even if in Galwan, wouldn't matter to PLA.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Sep 2020 15:26

Am I the only one who is wondering why are we negotiating over LAC ? Take a look at all official maps of India and statements of multiple PMs and Presidents, all claiming whole of J&K including PoJK and CoL (Aksai Chi, Sinkiang) as integral parts of India; Bharat ka atoot ang.

We are now having talks about perceptions of LAC as if it's some modern day gender fluid SJW who claims that he is 30% male 40% female and rest being variable as per mood, environment and needs. What's stopping India from de-recognizing One China policy, give acknowldgement to Tibet as an independent country and talk about Aksasi Chin as Indian territory instead of this ours and their perception thing ? Chinese are doing the exact same thing and this overwhelming desire of playing the good boy is still strong with Indians.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 12 Sep 2020 15:29

Exactly what I've been saying Jamwal ji !