India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

[nam]

In a full border fight they will. Along with increasing funding to NE groups, Chinis will invest in our social trouble makers. Highlight our social issues and how lot of people in India are suppressed by higher case people etc.

They can make up such an excuse and target NE positions with airpower.

It primary focus SHOULD be to invest in to airpower dominance and long range counter strikes with air launched missiles and BM/CM. If we have to hold our lines, our airforce should be unequivocally powerful. Our borders are away from Chini population centers. So it is important, we acquire the capability to dole out visible pain to major Chini cities like Chengdu.

[mihir.mehta]

From today's Business-Standard :

Government sources say Beijing is pressuring New Delhi to accept what would be publicly called a “mutual troop withdrawal”, but would, in fact, require Indian soldiers to withdraw first from their tactically advantageous positions south of Pangong Tso lake.

Only after Indian troops withdraw from their dominating heights, such as Point 5167, Bump, Magar Hill and Requin La; would the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) pull back from its positions on Helmet Top and Black Top in the same area.

It is learnt that Chinese negotiators, mindful of New Delhi’s sensitivity to public opinion, are assuring Indian officials that the Indian side would be allowed to announce first that the Chinese had pulled back. Beijing is offering assurances that it will not counter such a claim from New Delhi.
Chinese negotiators are offering a similar plan for a “mutual withdrawal” from the heights above the so-called Fingers – mountain spurs that run down to the north bank of Pangong Tso. Here again, India is being asked to withdraw first from positions above Finger 2 and Finger 3.

[D.Mahesh]

From today's Business-Standard :

Peoples Republic of China Government sources...

There was a time when BRForum posters set the news agenda. 2 many dude posters now (deliberately making a spelling mistake) who simply post random BS (I mean Business Standard) clips here.

[Sonugn]

From today's Business-Standard :

Government sources say Beijing is pressuring New Delhi to accept what would be publicly called a “mutual troop withdrawal”, but would, in fact, require Indian soldiers to withdraw first from their tactically advantageous positions south of Pangong Tso lake.

Only after Indian troops withdraw from their dominating heights, such as Point 5167, Bump, Magar Hill and Requin La; would the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) pull back from its positions on Helmet Top and Black Top in the same area.

It is learnt that Chinese negotiators, mindful of New Delhi’s sensitivity to public opinion, are assuring Indian officials that the Indian side would be allowed to announce first that the Chinese had pulled back. Beijing is offering assurances that it will not counter such a claim from New Delhi.
Chinese negotiators are offering a similar plan for a “mutual withdrawal” from the heights above the so-called Fingers – mountain spurs that run down to the north bank of Pangong Tso. Here again, India is being asked to withdraw first from positions above Finger 2 and Finger 3.

By Chuklaji

[vnadendla]

From today's Business-Standard :

Government sources say Beijing is pressuring New Delhi to accept what would be publicly called a “mutual troop withdrawal”, but would, in fact, require Indian soldiers to withdraw first from their tactically advantageous positions south of Pangong Tso lake.

Only after Indian troops withdraw from their dominating heights, such as Point 5167, Bump, Magar Hill and Requin La; would the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) pull back from its positions on Helmet Top and Black Top in the same area.......

This is inconsistent with what we know about the situation. Ignore it.

[pankajs]

Yeh .. Crooklaw report is opposite to the what has been tweeted by Nitin Gokhale a while back, who seemed to suggest that GOI is preparing for the long haul and that it is comfortable with the current configuration at the LAC. Nitin Gokhale is one of the most reliable & connected jurnos today.

I did not post when I saw it because it mostly mirrored the conclusion the forum has reached and it did not add anything new to the analysis. Will dig up his tweets and update this thread.

https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 3011096576

Our Editor-in-Chief @nitingokhale's 1st report after his visit to Ladakh. Ladakh Standoff: India Negotiating on Equal Terms with Outfoxed China.

This is Gokhale's reading and therefore GOI insiders reading ...
https://twitter.com/bsdhanoa/status/1319832637897207809

We can sit tight, now that China’s outfoxed.

Seems skeptical ...
https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 4801705984

On ground that is what commanders are preparing for.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 4219749382

Was there scope ever for any doubt on that score?

https://twitter.com/bsdhanoa/status/1319844382552461312

Your comment seemed to imply a steady preparation.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 6439716864

Those already stationed there were prepared anyway. Additional forces are preparing—billeting, stocking up. You would know

[Yagnasri]

If IA withdraws first, then there is no guarantee that the Chinese will be honest in their dealings with us. If we are still go-ahead, I am sure that the Chinese will cheat us. If such a thing happens then, NDA will be asked to resign.

[Lisa]

Ladakh Standoff: India Negotiating On Equal Terms With Outfoxed China

By Nitin A. Gokhale

https://stratnewsglobal.com/ladakh-stan ... xed-china/

[pankajs]

Gokhale filed this report only yesterdin from Ladakh on the LAC situation ...

https://stratnewsglobal.com/ladakh-stan ... xed-china/
Ladakh Standoff: India Negotiating On Equal Terms With Outfoxed China

LEH, LADAKH: There is a military stalemate along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh. And China doesn’t like it.

After nearly six months of attempted military coercion, the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has been unable to force the Indian military to succumb or retreat. Instead, China finds itself in a cul-de-sac. This was not how it was planned in the Central Military Commission (CMC).

As a result of the impasse, in the last two meetings at the level of Corps Commanders, there is distinct change in the Chinese attitude during discussions. The Chinese now desire to resolve the standoff as soon as possible, informed sources reveal.

What prompted the change of tune? At least three reasons are being attributed by military professionals involved in planning and executing operations on ground. One, India’s swift response and matching deployment along all the friction points in Eastern Ladakh in the first fortnight of May; two, the clash at Galwan on June 15 in which India lost 20 soldiers but China suffered a larger number of casualties and three, India’s simultaneous move to occupy strategic heights along the Kailash range in Chushul and the forbidding peaks above the Finger 4 ridge line on the north bank of Pangong Tso.

....
However, three distinct military actions in the last week of August that negated the advantage the Chinese had thought they had gained in surprising the Indians in early May.

....
Since then, the Chinese have shown eagerness to de-escalate and disengage. In the last meeting of the Corps Commanders on October 12, the Chinese put forward a couple of proposals and so did the Indians. Details are confidential but indications are that the Chinese have gone to the extent of indicating that they do not mind restoring status quo ante at the Finger area (moving back to Finger -8) on the north bank of Pangong Tso provided India scales down its presence on the heights of Kailash range, something that India is unwilling to do so. Instead, India has proposed a sequential process which can be verified and validated at each step before moving to the final stage of de-induction of troops. India has told China it started the standoff by violating protocols on the border so only the principle of ‘first in, first out’ is applicable here. That is, the PLA must start the process of withdrawal before India can.

This report contradicts Crooklaw completely ... As usual, Crooklaw is spreading FUD on behalf of the Chinese & Modi's opponents.

Btw, I would be more interested on what has India proposed on the Depsang plains. Recall that India wanted a packaged deal all across the Ladakh rather than negotiate piece meal in different sectors because our Kalisah range gambit goes much beyond just negating the Chinese play for F4/8 on the northern bank of Pangang tso.

[Vips]

47 new outposts, weapons upgrade, V-SAT systems: ITBP gets more teeth amid LAC row.

Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP), deployed along with the Army on Indo-China border, has got a weapons upgrade, V-SAT systems for better border communication, better vehicles, apart from bullet resistant jackets and helmets for its personnel, as part of its modernisation, ITBP Director General S S Deswal said on Saturday on the occasion of its Raising Day.

Minister of state G Kishan Reddy, in his address at the Raising Day event, added that the home ministry had, under the guidance of Prime Minister
Narendra Modi and leadership of home minister Amit Shah, taken a slew of initiatives to empower the ITBP. This included grant of approval to ITBP
to establish 47 border outposts. This year alone, he said, 28 types of new vehicles had been provided to the force. He added that ITBP personnel in high-altitude areas had been given specialised clothing and mountaineering equipment.

“A budget of Rs 7,223 crore has been allocated for the ITBP and more than Rs 15 crore has been sanctioned for management,” ITBP broke myth that some countries have strong armies he said while praising the valour shown by ITBP men during the standoff with Chinese troops in Ladakh.

In his message to ITBP on its Raising Day, home minister Amit Shah tweeted: “The valour and courage of our ITBP personnel cannot be put in words. Their commitment to safeguard our motherland at world’s most difficult terrains is truly remarkable”.

Speaking earlier, Deswal said ITBP had sent a proposal regarding phase 2 of Indo-China border roads programme to the home ministry. Also, a high-level empowered committee was looking at another proposal for critical infrastructure — 18 foot tracks in Arunachal Pradesh — and the DG hoped construction of the same would start soon.

Deswal commended the ITBP jawans deployed in Ladakh for valiantly dealing with the recent border challenge, saying that he had honoured the personnel on the spot by visiting their border outposts, even as names of many personnel had been recommended for gallantry awards.

Raised on October 24, 1962 during India-China War, ITBP primarily guards the nation’s 3,488 kilometre long borders in the Himalayas at the BOPs located at altitudes ranging from 3,000 feet to 18,800 feet. The force is also deployed for anti-Maoist operations and other internal security duties.

[Vips]

LAC stand-off: India rejects China’s demand, but talks on.

The two sides are reportedly engaged in high-level talks to resolve the stand-off. According to sources, China has been asking for a de-escalation
of armoured and artillery units before disengagement. That is unacceptable to the Indian side because China has a much easier route to re-arm its troops, unlike India.

[Sanju]

They can built any number of airfields/alg etc, it is not going to change the lift capability, as explained ad nauseum on this thread.

PLAAF job is not do deep and heavy strikes. It is to keep IAF busy. And PLAAF has enough numbers to keep IAF busy. What they lack is airbases. If they have to do deep strikes, they will use H6 and Rockets.

If anybody believes that PLAAF doesn't have enough brains to figure out a workaround for operating at high altitude, then I have a white marble in Agra to sell.

You carry A2A missile and enough fuel on a longer runway to get airborne. Have airbases in the 200-300KM range from the border to reduce the need for air refueling. Have more airbases in Xinjiang at lower altitude. Deploy larger number of sqd to cover lack of loadouts. If one Rafale can carry 6 BVR, PLAAF will deploy 2 J10 with 3 BVR each.

This is exactly how PAF did on Feb 27. Large part of the package was to keep IAF busy, while only small part of them fired their standoff weapon. It doesn't require much to carry BVR/CCM.

Using H6 will mean something else.. it is a Strategic Bomber, IIRC Ramana ji has alreay referred to this previously.

And if PLAAF is going to counter with a new strategies for the environment, why does one expect that IAF is sitting static eating chana playing goli? They will have counter strategies.

What is the need for the dhoti shiver? We cannot control what the Chinese are doing on their side, we can control how we need to react to it.

Edited -

[arshyam]

So isn't that a good thing?

Not really, holding narrative is pointless when post Wuhan, M'puram and 17 odd meetings between Modi and Xitler, we get surprised by their border offensive, F4 occupation and Galwan attack. Its not miscalculation but a misreading of Chinese mindset and intent. .

Saar, if you insist on continuing to dhoti shiver mode, no one can stop you. But please do read the Nitin Gokhale report shared above, it points to what we on this thread had more or less concluded.

[Cyrano]

arshyam saar, seems you have an incorrect understanding of "dhoti shivering" or you havent really read my post. Or both.

[Deans]

I don't understand why we are so focused on Ladakh. Why wouldn't the PLAAF attack in the North East? There are targets like Dibrugarh, there is Arunachal Pradesh, they have bases like Chengdu but airfields that are much, much closer and without a significant penalty, like Lijiang. The Chinese are convinced that the NE wants to break away from India, and they might think this would be a trigger.

We have 9 divisions (3 corps of 3 divisions each) in the North East, vs. 1 corps with 2 divisions in Ladakh. Of the 2 divisions in the Fire and Fury corps in Ladakh, one (8th Mountain) is responsible for the area between Dras and the Siachen Glacier ,leaving only 3rd Infantry Div responsible for the defense of Eastern Ladakh. That said, we have significantly reinforced Ladakh since June.
We are in no danger in the North East. If the PLA has to threaten us, it has to be in Ladakh,

[Deans]

Gokhale filed this report only yesterdin from Ladakh on the LAC situation ...

https://stratnewsglobal.com/ladakh-stan ... xed-china/
Ladakh Standoff: India Negotiating On Equal Terms With Outfoxed China

LEH, LADAKH: There is a military stalemate along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh. And China doesn’t like it.

After nearly six months of attempted military coercion, the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has been unable to force the Indian military to succumb or retreat. Instead, China finds itself in a cul-de-sac. This was not how it was planned in the Central Military Commission (CMC).

As a result of the impasse, in the last two meetings at the level of Corps Commanders, there is distinct change in the Chinese attitude during discussions. The Chinese now desire to resolve the standoff as soon as possible, informed sources reveal.

What prompted the change of tune? At least three reasons are being attributed by military professionals involved in planning and executing operations on ground. One, India’s swift response and matching deployment along all the friction points in Eastern Ladakh in the first fortnight of May; two, the clash at Galwan on June 15 in which India lost 20 soldiers but China suffered a larger number of casualties and three, India’s simultaneous move to occupy strategic heights along the Kailash range in Chushul and the forbidding peaks above the Finger 4 ridge line on the north bank of Pangong Tso.
However, three distinct military actions in the last week of August that negated the advantage the Chinese had thought they had gained in surprising the Indians in early May.
....
Since then, the Chinese have shown eagerness to de-escalate and disengage. In the last meeting of the Corps Commanders on October 12, the Chinese put forward a couple of proposals and so did the Indians. Details are confidential but indications are that the Chinese have gone to the extent of indicating that they do not mind restoring status quo ante at the Finger area (moving back to Finger -8) on the north bank of Pangong Tso provided India scales down its presence on the heights of Kailash range, something that India is unwilling to do so. Instead, India has proposed a sequential process which can be verified and validated at each step before moving to the final stage of de-induction of troops. India has told China it started the standoff by violating protocols on the border so only the principle of ‘first in, first out’ is applicable here. That is, the PLA must start the process of withdrawal before India can.

This report contradicts Crooklaw completely ... As usual, Crooklaw is spreading FUD on behalf of the Chinese & Modi's opponents.

Ajai Shukla is a useful idiot. If he is concerned about something, you can be sure India is doing it right and its causing some concern to his paymasters in Beijing.

[Dilbu]

China going through agrarian crisis, using border disputes to divert attention: Report

New Delhi: Economists noticed an interesting trend of China inking back-to-back deals on food grains and food products with multiple nations across the world. Most of the deals involve a massive transaction of food items. It has also signed deals with its adversaries, reflecting that the country is going probably going through a major food crisis.

China's food inflation rose by 13.2% in July 2020. Prices of most of the food products consumed by a common Chinese on a day-to-day basis have shot up, from cereals to meat products. The National Bureau of Statistics has revealed that the prices of most commonly consumed meat, pork has increased by 86%.

China is resorting to aggressive import of food products from all over the world. The critical condition can be understood from the fact that the country is procuring almost all the major food items.

According to China General Administration Customs, the country has also increased its grain imports during the first half of this year by 22.7%, leading to a food grain import measuring 74.51 million tons. Though China has been the largest producer of soybean for the past few years, yet it plans to import 40 million tons this year from its arch rival USA.

.

[Philip]

We appear to be adopting the Chin strategy of winning a war without fighting,by intimidation. Do they really want a Himalayan battle with a battle-hardened India? If the Galwan clash taught them anything is that we relish killing Chinks. Therefore the answer is NO.Had Mad Mandarin Xitler wanted war,we would've had it by now.What he wanted was his skinching of our territory to continue,plus a slap on our PM's face,to pull him down a peg or two,showing the world who rules Asia.

Sadly for the yellow ( pun intended) Xitler, he boot was on the other foot! We have matched the PLA and PLAAF soldier for soldier, tank for tank, fighter for fighter and the IN is simply salivating to launch Diwali early at the huge PRC merchantmen and PLAN bumboats in the IOR,while turning the Malacca Straits into "running the gauntlet" for any PLAN warship or sub that dares transiting it.

As time goes by, further border infra,now truly afoot at record pace,will further strengthen our logistic capability all along the LAC. For all practical purposes the LAC is as dead as the dinosaur.It's now fair game for us to pick and choose advantage points on the map wherever and
whenever we choose. Teaching India another '62 lesson is an opium pipe dream for Xitler.Modi is not Nehru and India then was militarily weak,not now thanks to the PRC perfidy way back then. Xitler might as well lie on a couch in a Shanghai den and inhale!

But we cannot rest on our larels of halting Xitler in the Himalayas. Further pain must be inflicted upon him both economically and diplomatically if he does not retreat and retreat in gull view of the world. We must NEVER give him a face-saving solution. Just as Mao treated us with contempt by us offering him the UNSC seat,so too will Xitler treat any kind gesture from Modiji with similar contempt. Both T cards must be steadily played,the pressure upon the PRC must be unrelenting with the screws turned tighter by the day.We must bait him to fall into our trap.

[kit]

China going through agrarian crisis, using border disputes to divert attention: Report

New Delhi: Economists noticed an interesting trend of China inking back-to-back deals on food grains and food products with multiple nations across the world. Most of the deals involve a massive transaction of food items. It has also signed deals with its adversaries, reflecting that the country is going probably going through a major food crisis.

China's food inflation rose by 13.2% in July 2020. Prices of most of the food products consumed by a common Chinese on a day-to-day basis have shot up, from cereals to meat products. The National Bureau of Statistics has revealed that the prices of most commonly consumed meat, pork has increased by 86%.

China is resorting to aggressive import of food products from all over the world. The critical condition can be understood from the fact that the country is procuring almost all the major food items.
].

Wonder to what extent COVID had rampaged through China !!..they might be sitting on a powder keg lit at the end.. by Xi's Himalayan adventure

[chola]

China going through agrarian crisis, using border disputes to divert attention: Report

Wonder to what extent COVID had rampaged through China !!..they might be sitting on a powder keg lit at the end.. by Xi's Himalayan adventure

Floods too. Their price hikes though are mainly over meat, dairy and corn (which they use mainly to feed cattle and pigs) not their staples of rice, wheat and greens like cabbage. And they have always been a huge importer of food from soybeans to lobsters.

From a global business standpoint, they have controlled the virus they wrought. That is why their market and their currency are at all times high. Foreign investment is pouring into f-ing China right now.

Even worse is their export engine is hitting its stride now too. For most exporting nations, a weaker currency provides greater exports. Cheen has a strong currency plus exploding exports.

Against this backdrop, the food imports are seen as more restocking, hedging and luxury based purchases by market analysts.

The markets could be wrong and Zee news right. But the perception of the first is bringing money into Cheen (and Hong Kong) at a monstrous clip right now. Zee news makes us feel better but little else.

[nam]

Spike NLOS hitting though Armenian targets

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1320355625243676674

Loitering drones, PGM, NLOS ATGM are going to cause lots of damage along 30-40KM depth. The level of precision in tactical system has given tremendous boost in inflicting causalities on frontline units.

These systems have increased the tactical ISR tremendously. Each hit with the video feed, provided valuable info the enemy strength in the targeted area.

Hope our people are watching the events in Azeri-Armenian fight.

[Guddu]

Ajit Doval's talk at Rishikesh. All his speeches are killers. Sorry, my skills are not adequate for translation.
Hopefully right place for this, wrt to China. The warning has been delivered, no limp noodle talk.

I also liked what Swamiji said. Listen carefully.

https://youtu.be/CdLCF1mcI8Y

[fanne]

Spike NLOS will be game changer in Ladhak. We have baught a small sample of it already (the original deal of 10,000 spikes for half billion dollars was scuttled -https://thediplomat.com/2019/11/indias- ... d-kashmir/
-In December 2017, the Indian government scrapped a $500 million deal with Rafael for 321 Spike ATGM systems and 8,356 missiles in favor of an indigenous ATGM system currently under development by India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). As I reported last year:

The cancellation of the deal has led to severe disagreements between the Indian Army’s senior leadership and the DRDO, as the service remains deeply skeptical of the DRDO-developed man portable anti-tank guided missile (MPATGM). The Indian Army leadership has reportedly stated that it does not think that the MPATGM will meet the service’s operational requirements. It is also concerned about likely delays in the induction of the new weapon system. )

This is 2020, we are at war and Nag again had one more round of final clearance. Even if it is final this time, it will not be in numbers, or maturity or lethality of Spike family of ATGM (that has a 40 years of head start over NAG). In a hot war that counts for something. We are willing to buy Hammer worth similar amount (when if we had waited few years, much cheaper spice would have been integrated). Hammer is mostly a rush purchase, just in case war breaks sooner than Spice can be integrated. On similar logic similarly priced Spike (mostly NLOS version, vehicle mounted version and Rudra/LCH integrated version) would do much more damage (compared to hammer) to chinese soft and hard skinned vehicles in the relative open space of Tibet.

Bottom line - There is a strong case of buying at least 5000 spike for say $250 million dollars, while NAG ATGM is build in numbers. We need a total of some 20,000-40,000 (more like later number) of ATGM in next decade. 5000 of spike (of various versions, acquired quickly) will not impact our production run of indigenous ATGMS but greatly help our defense posture (that too at a pidly cost of $250 million)

[darshhan]

Spike NLOS will be game changer in Ladhak. We have baught a small sample of it already (the original deal of 10,000 spikes for half billion dollars was scuttled -https://thediplomat.com/2019/11/indias- ... d-kashmir/
-In December 2017, the Indian government scrapped a $500 million deal with Rafael for 321 Spike ATGM systems and 8,356 missiles in favor of an indigenous ATGM system currently under development by India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). As I reported last year:

The cancellation of the deal has led to severe disagreements between the Indian Army’s senior leadership and the DRDO, as the service remains deeply skeptical of the DRDO-developed man portable anti-tank guided missile (MPATGM). The Indian Army leadership has reportedly stated that it does not think that the MPATGM will meet the service’s operational requirements. It is also concerned about likely delays in the induction of the new weapon system. )

This is 2020, we are at war and Nag again had one more round of final clearance. Even if it is final this time, it will not be in numbers, or maturity or lethality of Spike family of ATGM (that has a 40 years of head start over NAG). In a hot war that counts for something. We are willing to buy Hammer worth similar amount (when if we had waited few years, much cheaper spice would have been integrated). Hammer is mostly a rush purchase, just in case war breaks sooner than Spice can be integrated. On similar logic similarly priced Spike (mostly NLOS version, vehicle mounted version and Rudra/LCH integrated version) would do much more damage (compared to hammer) to chinese soft and hard skinned vehicles in the relative open space of Tibet.

Bottom line - There is a strong case of buying at least 5000 spike for say $250 million dollars, while NAG ATGM is build in numbers. We need a total of some 20,000-40,000 (more like later number) of ATGM in next decade. 5000 of spike (of various versions, acquired quickly) will not impact our production run of indigenous ATGMS but greatly help our defense posture (that too at a pidly cost of $250 million)

I would suggest instead of spike nlos, we should go for hero series(uvision group) of loitering munitions. Far more versatile plus ability to remain on station while looking for targets of opportunity. Lot of varieties too coming in all sizes and upto 250 km range This is something For spike Nlos we already have an indigenous analogue in SANT atgm. Within one year it should be ready as per media reports. DRDO should be asked to complete it within 6 months. If they can do it, then nothing like it.

[ks_sachin]

Spike NLOS will be game changer in Ladhak. We have baught a small sample of it already (the original deal of 10,000 spikes for half billion dollars was scuttled -https://thediplomat.com/2019/11/indias- ... d-kashmir/
-In December 2017, the Indian government scrapped a $500 million deal with Rafael for 321 Spike ATGM systems and 8,356 missiles in favor of an indigenous ATGM system currently under development by India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). As I reported last year:

The cancellation of the deal has led to severe disagreements between the Indian Army’s senior leadership and the DRDO, as the service remains deeply skeptical of the DRDO-developed man portable anti-tank guided missile (MPATGM). The Indian Army leadership has reportedly stated that it does not think that the MPATGM will meet the service’s operational requirements. It is also concerned about likely delays in the induction of the new weapon system. )

This is 2020, we are at war and Nag again had one more round of final clearance. Even if it is final this time, it will not be in numbers, or maturity or lethality of Spike family of ATGM (that has a 40 years of head start over NAG). In a hot war that counts for something. We are willing to buy Hammer worth similar amount (when if we had waited few years, much cheaper spice would have been integrated). Hammer is mostly a rush purchase, just in case war breaks sooner than Spice can be integrated. On similar logic similarly priced Spike (mostly NLOS version, vehicle mounted version and Rudra/LCH integrated version) would do much more damage (compared to hammer) to chinese soft and hard skinned vehicles in the relative open space of Tibet.

Bottom line - There is a strong case of buying at least 5000 spike for say $250 million dollars, while NAG ATGM is build in numbers. We need a total of some 20,000-40,000 (more like later number) of ATGM in next decade. 5000 of spike (of various versions, acquired quickly) will not impact our production run of indigenous ATGMS but greatly help our defense posture (that too at a pidly cost of $250 million)

I would suggest instead of spike nlos, we should go for hero series(uvision group) of loitering munitions. Far more versatile plus ability to remain on station while looking for targets of opportunity. Lot of varieties too coming in all sizes and upto 250 km range This is something For spike Nlos we already have an indigenous analogue in SANT atgm. Within one year it should be ready as per media reports. DRDO should be asked to complete it within 6 months. If they can do it, then nothing like it.

Pardon my ignorance but can loitering ammo be effective against the latest reactive armour?

I am not thinking of Ladakh but in the deserts where large scale armour engagements are possible but highly unlikely.

[darshhan]

I would suggest instead of spike nlos, we should go for hero series(uvision group) of loitering munitions. Far more versatile plus ability to remain on station while looking for targets of opportunity. Lot of varieties too coming in all sizes and upto 250 km range This is something For spike Nlos we already have an indigenous analogue in SANT atgm. Within one year it should be ready as per media reports. DRDO should be asked to complete it within 6 months. If they can do it, then nothing like it.

Pardon my ignorance but can loitering ammo be effective against the latest reactive armour?

I am not thinking of Ladakh but in the deserts where large scale armour engagements are possible but highly unlikely.

You are talking about the shaped charge that is present on Atgms Just integrate the shaped charge with the loitering munition i.e if you want to customise the loitering munition for anti armor role only. Brar ji had indeed said something about mating javelin warhead with switchblade loitering munition in one of the threads if I recall correctly.

Plus a loitering munition by default would be in top attack mode. This is where the tank armor is the weakest. One of the most desired capability of modern atgm's comes as the default mode of a loitering munition.

Also look at the hero loitering munitions(uvision group). If you have a warhead of 5-10 kg on your loitering munition, you will anyway damage the tank even without shaped charge. Remember a modern tank depends heavily on sensors. Even if the munition fails to penetrate, it will damage all these sensors plus other accesories which are outside the tank such as machine gun stations, crows etc.

[ks_sachin]

Thanks Darshhan.

[Dilbu]

New road in Nathu La sector opened, will bolster defence

Rajnath inaugurated a new road in Sikkim — Alternate Alignment for Gangtok-Nathu La Road — via video-conferencing from the 33 Corps headquarters. The new alignment was required as the existing one is extensively damaged. The road serves as an important link to bolster defence preparedness in the Nathu La sector and East Sikkim. Nathu La is at the LAC and is the designated meeting point for the Army and China’s People’s Liberation Army.

[nam]

NLOAS ATGM & Loitering drones, on their won may not win wars. However they will provide tactical precision to punch through heavy defenses.

Defensive positions which are well protected against 155MM rounds, can be hit by NLOS and loitering drones. This is going to give us serious headache in the mountains. We got to start using these on LoC, specially on reverse slope Pak artillery positions.

Imagine what a 40KM flying guided weapon can do to Pak artillery positions. DRDO is working on a guided MBRL. Hope it is some sort of rocket + winged warhead. Needless to say, we need to create a NLOS version of Nag/Helina/SANT.

The Chinis already have it and it is matter of time, Paks starts using it on our position and releasing videos. The Azeris-Armenia has given them lots of ideas.

[Dilbu]

ITBP gets nod to set up 47 new outposts on India-China border

New Delhi: In wake of the Galwan Valley clash between Indian and Chinese troops amid tensions on the Line of Actual Control, the government has given approval to the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) to set up 47 Border Outposts (BoPs) to step up vigil along the border.

The Minister also said that 28 types of new vehicles have been provided to the ITBP, which has been allotted a budget of Rs 7,223 crore

[pushkar.bhat]

Just came across this video on Twitter. Obviously made by one of our guys but appearing on Today_China Twitter handle.

Link to Tweet

The location called out is Tawang date is unknown. But with Twitter nowadays you never know the actual geotag.

[shyamd]

Gen Rawat asks tri-services to curb peace-time activities in deference to deployed troops in Ladakh

Marine commandos have been asked to be deployed with Army’s special forces in Ladakh and Navy asked to focus on Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

This reflects the high demands being placed on Para SF specifically and the SF community if green light is given.

The deployed troops are waiting for last shipment of polar winter clothing and face masks, which are expected to arrive from US Army own reserve stocks by the first week of November. Just like the PLA, the Indian Army is prepared for a long haul and is in no mood to cede an inch of territory to the aggressive Chinese Army. The PLA has already deployed strategic jammers in Arunachal Pradesh and is going in for a massive infrastructure and storage capacity upgrade in both Xinjiang and Tibet.

According to senior military commanders, Gen Rawat has made it clear to all the three services that these are not normal times with troops, artillery and tanks deployed along the 1597 km Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh and hence all peace-time activities must be curbed. “As situation in east Ladakh can get worse any time in case of an accident, the armed forces must be ready for any scenario. It cannot be that while the entire northern army command and western air command is battle deployed in frozen condition, the rest of us are celebrating the festival season and playing golf. Let nobody forget there is a war on in Ladakh,” said a South Block official.

Anyone who is involved in military operations planning will understand that this is a signal about readiness i.e. tensions are only escalating and chance of conflict is high. Transition to warfare will be swift.

Clearly the US is stepping in to support through pre-positioned stocks.

In lieu of this, the Indian Navy has been asked to focus on Andaman and Nicobar Island to monitor Chinese warship activity in Indian Ocean rather than get concerned about PLA Navy deployments off the coast of Africa. Indian Island territories of Lakshadweep and ANC are the key to national maritime security as they dominate the most important shipping lanes - from Persian Gulf to Malacca Straits—in the world.

This is a big statement and changes the nature of IN war plans re: PLAN base in Djibouti. Threat assessment and Intelligence would have played a big part of this. MARCOS are clearly being re-allocated tasks off the back of this.

What I understand from this is that there is a re-deployment of existing assets and posture change. I am a little surprised tbh but can understand the logic. If PLAN start blocking Indian traffic going into Suez, IN can cut Chinese traffic off in other locations like Persian Gulf/Maldives bottleneck.

[darshhan]

NLOAS ATGM & Loitering drones, on their won may not win wars. However they will provide tactical precision to punch through heavy defenses.

This was true like 5 years ago. But today loitering munitions are mostly capable of winning the war on their own if not totally. Wrt armenia azerbaizan conflict from what I have been reading armenian soldiers are much better than azerbaizani soldiers on almost every skill set as well as sheer courage and desperation. Yet today Azerbaizan is close to capturing almost 10% of Ngarno Karbakh territory. The only sphere of warfare where they are outgunning Armenians is in the effective usage of loitering munitions. Ofcourse Azerbaizan is also a much larger country with more resources and manpower. So yes loitering munitions have now reached the stage where they have the capability to change the course of conflict single handedly.

And the fun part is yet to start. I.e these loitering munitions attack as individual munitions. One can only imagine the amount of destruction unleashed once the swarming munitions come into play.

Defensive positions which are well protected against 155MM rounds, can be hit by NLOS and loitering drones. This is going to give us serious headache in the mountains. We got to start using these on LoC, specially on reverse slope Pak artillery positions.

This is where we are probably safe for now especially wrt LAC or siachen type super high altitudes. For eg. The maximum altitudes that Harops(arguably the most famous loitering munition today) can operate in is 15000 feet. Hell almost whole ladakh section of LAC will be at this height or greater. So until unless you customise the loitering munitions for these kind of altitudes, they probably will not be that effective in current scenario. However rest be assured Chinese will be already working on this and it is very likely that when they decide to initiate the next round, they will have the high altitude solution ready. In the meantime ATGMs, artillery and mlrs will reign supreme in these high alt theatres.

Imagine what a 40KM flying guided weapon can do to Pak artillery positions. DRDO is working on a guided MBRL. Hope it is some sort of rocket + winged warhead. Needless to say, we need to create a NLOS version of Nag/Helina/SANT.

SANT is already NLOS having a reach of 20 kms.

The Chinis already have it and it is matter of time, Paks starts using it on our position and releasing videos. The Azeris-Armenia has given them lots of ideas.

You bet. That is why we should attack and destroy Pakistan at its earliest within a year or two max. 'Cause war techonology is democratizing at a very fast rate and will be a great leveller in near future. A larger GDP and a better military by today's standards will not have much relevance in times of SWARM.
Hm

[sum]

The deployed troops are waiting for last shipment of polar winter clothing and face masks, which are expected to arrive from US Army own reserve stocks by the first week of November.

35 years of being posted in "polar winter type zones" in large numbers and we still are importing every thread of clothing from outside or depending on other army reserve stocks?

[sreerudra]

The deployed troops are waiting for last shipment of polar winter clothing and face masks, which are expected to arrive from US Army own reserve stocks by the first week of November.

35 years of being posted in "polar winter type zones" in large numbers and we still are importing every thread of clothing from outside or depending on other army reserve stocks?

Sir, think like this. It takes time to get them manufactured in bulk. Imagine the US which still imported planes full of masks from China! I am positive that things are already in place for the next winter.

[pankajs]

https://stratnewsglobal.com/10000-more- ... y-for-lac/
10,000 More Permanent Troops Likely For LAC

It is likely that in the long term, another division (about 10,000 troops) will now be deployed in Ladakh to share the burden of guarding the LAC along with 3 Infantry Division. With the Chinese military challenge showing signs of increasing with time, that’s the minimum the Indian Army will have to cater for to bolster Ladakh’s defence. As we saw firsthand, work has already begun to house additional forces not just through the current winter but on a long-term basis.

This additional division, which used to train in high-altitude areas of Ladakh as part of its dual tasking until early this year (thereafter returning to its peacetime locations outside Ladakh), packs a powerful punch. It has a special forces component and of course trained in mountain warfare troops.

....
It needs to be noted that these additional forces would have perhaps been deployed in Ladakh may be two-three years down the line once adequate infrastructure had been built. India has been building up troop strength gradually since 2013 when a short standoff had occurred at Depsang. An additional brigade pulled out from Kashmir valley was inducted in the DBO sector in the wake of that crisis. Similar plans were afoot for the next three years but China’s belligerence has ensured that India has compressed its military plans.

Extra deployment has been in the pipeline for a few years but but the plan has been speed up.

[mihir.mehta]

The deployed troops are waiting for last shipment of polar winter clothing and face masks, which are expected to arrive from US Army own reserve stocks by the first week of November.

35 years of being posted in "polar winter type zones" in large numbers and we still are importing every thread of clothing from outside or depending on other army reserve stocks?

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... ing-158278

The Indian industry has the capability to manufacture all of this winter clothing but the army and the bureaucracy have been scuttling it for long. For if that happens - their yearly European vacations at govt expenses come to an end.

the Swiss dealer candidly told the visiting MoD official that the putative collaborative project had not evoked interest as its success would have obviated the need for visits by Indian officials to European countries to source SCME.

[sum]

Very, very painful read.

Thanks for posting and solving the mystery of the missing local winter gear( despite being in demand from 1984 times)

[hnair]

35 years of being posted in "polar winter type zones" in large numbers and we still are importing every thread of clothing from outside or depending on other army reserve stocks?

Hmm.... decades of posting here, what is with this needless ?

1) It is not like the technology behind extreme weather gear has been static over past 35 years. Costs a packet then and now

2) European cold weather gear manufacturing used to be tops in alpine gear till mid 2000s. That was because they have good feedback from likes of Reinnhold Messner and Ranulph Fiennes type legends. US never produced anyone like that and their first serious climber of Fourteen was a part timer dentist(Veisteurs). The only US exception was Yvonne Chouinard’s exceptional team at Patagonia Inc for climbing hardware. But all that changed. US private manufacturers have since then advanced so much due to rapid growth of a vast market of weekend warriors who indulge in extreme weather activities, that it has over a few short years developed a rich eco system that is the best in the world right now. Some of the fabric layers and glued-on seams produce results that are magical compared to the first glued on seams I had (it ripped off quickly!)

Even the US military contributes a lot to the science and keeps prices low with COTS adoption and also their own churn back of non-lethal tech to civilian markets.

India does not have anywhere close to the civilian market that US or Europe have, which can make the market grow and support innovation at local level

So it is no mystery that in this urgent situation, India is going for the best products of the most developed extreme weather gear market in the world. The times demand quick solutions.

[sum]

Saar, all you say is right but i recall reading from many many years about how DRDO/OFB/<xyz> was on the case to cut down the costly imports ( need not be the best of class but suffices for our needs) and hence, my question

Im honestly surprised that with a stated goal of defence labs working on atleast few of these items and having so much experience over 35 years and having brigades worth of troops posted all year long since the 99 war, we are still importing 80% of even basic gear like pickaxes etc

The article posted above explained the present situation and how all those efforts have now been closed since IA wasnt satisfied/tech was beyond our capability etc and it doesnt look like anything is being done to come out of this perennial "urgent requirement" mode since it doesnt look like a stop gap measure with something being taken up in background to replace for time.

Anyways, my query was answered and anymore would be OT in this thread