India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 27 Oct 2020 14:02

pushkar.bhat wrote:Just came across this video on Twitter. Obviously made by one of our guys but appearing on Today_China Twitter handle.

Link to Tweet

The location called out is Tawang date is unknown. But with Twitter nowadays you never know the actual geotag.

First came across this video a few weeks ago. Somewhere in the NE sector surely.

nam · Post by **nam** » 27 Oct 2020 14:06

Before we outrage over lack of Alpine clothing being produced in India, let's just first understand the demand.

What is the annual demand? 10K? 15K? Who else needs them other than MoD? Why would you setup up a factory to produce only 10K jackets? Why would MoD pay 4-5 times more than importing such a small quantity?

There is no guarantee that the troops deployed now in standoff would be deployed next winter.

Unless our garment factories have got a outsourced contract, it makes no sense to produce such a small number. So MoD is doing the right thing.

nam · Post by **nam** » 27 Oct 2020 14:11

Chinis have cancelled the next round of talks, because we signed BECA. Good. Need to drag the standoff.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 27 Oct 2020 16:38

After BECA - next is a shared maritime domain awareness agreement with the US with a focus on PLAN positions. This is probably to ease exchange of data on IOR particularly from USN ISR assets in the region and get access to IN/ICG maritime data.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Oct 2020 16:41

nam wrote:Chinis have cancelled the next round of talks, because we signed BECA. Good. Need to drag the standoff.

Amazing that such big deals being pushed so close to elections.

Guess Trump-ji is confident that he will be back to oversee the deal for next few years

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 27 Oct 2020 16:45

^^ reflects the dangerous situation on the border more than anything else... Wouldn't link this move to elections..
-------------------------
MOD announcement today that by 2022, China boundary will be managed by one Theatre command.

India to get 5 military theatre commands, one each for China and Pak

According to military and national security planners, the northern command’s remit will begin from the Karakoram Pass in Ladakh and continue up to the last outpost Kibithu in Arunachal Pradesh , with the military mandate of guarding the 3,488 kilometre of Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China. The HQ of this command could be Lucknow.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Oct 2020 16:54

shyamd wrote:^^ reflects the dangerous situation on the border more than anything else... Wouldn't link this move to elections..

the US is signalling the bipartisan support and continuity of their India policy irrespective of who wins. But a feral factor like black baptist kamala harris, the mylapore maami cannot be trusted under any circumstances.

The importance of India in the US's game plan of the moment cannot be overstated which is all the more reason for us to be wary

KL Dubey · Post by **KL Dubey** » 27 Oct 2020 16:55

sum wrote:
nam wrote:Chinis have cancelled the next round of talks, because we signed BECA. Good. Need to drag the standoff.
Amazing that such big deals being pushed so close to elections.

Guess Trump-ji is confident that he will be back to oversee the deal for next few years

The new goremint in USA, whether haathi or gadhaa, takes over on Jan 20, 2021. Trumpulu, Pampayya, et al are still in the saddle till then, and possibly longer if the election result is disputed. If Joe wins, he will start getting in on goraghar discussions in a few days. There will likely be policy continuity on India and China. Those thinking the PLA will "attack immediately after election day in event of a Joe win", should consider the above.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 27 Oct 2020 17:16

chetak wrote: the US is signalling the bipartisan support and continuity of their India policy irrespective of who wins. But a feral factor like black baptist kamala harris, the mylapore maami cannot be trusted under any circumstances.

The importance of India in the US's game plan of the moment cannot be overstated which is all the more reason for us to be wary

Can't really trust any single party, each piece of info will be evaluated for its merits/demerits/level of overlap on interests.

BECA has been in the pipeline for a while. Signing it now is to address certain gaps. Border situation is very serious/dangerous. GOI would have dragged it out if it wasn't really needed.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 27 Oct 2020 17:18

nam wrote:Chinis have cancelled the next round of talks, because we signed BECA. Good. Need to drag the standoff.

Do you have a link, please.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 27 Oct 2020 17:32

The talks are not cancelled but delayed as per this report.
As India, US sign defence pact BECA, China feels the heat, delays border talks

New Delhi: As India and the United States have signed landmark defence pact BECA with an aim to bolster their military ties, the move has apparently become a matter of concern for China which is locked in a bitter standoff with New Delhi in eastern Ladakh.

India and China were expected to hold the eighth round of Corps Commander-level talks last week but Beijing reportedly delayed the meeting.

This comes as US Secretary of Defence Mark T Esper and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo arrived in India on Monday on a two-day visit for the Indo-US 2+2 dialogue during which they are expected to discuss several key and strategic issues, including the ongoing border tension between India and China in eastern Ladakh and Beijing’s growing assertiveness in the Indo-Pacific region.

On Monday, India and the US signed the BECA (Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement), the last of four foundational agreements for strengthening defence ties which will allow the militaries of the two countries to share geospatial information, high-end military technology and classified satellite data helpful for defence-related issues.

KL Dubey · Post by **KL Dubey** » 27 Oct 2020 17:57

^^^While it is good to keep track of the border "talks" in this thread, I'm not sure we should give it much importance except for repeating our stance.

The much-touted "decades-long far-sighted vision" of the CCP and PLA is now reduced to childish tantrums and mass wanking in heated barracks.

We should simply continue infrastructure building, security agreements/engagements with the Quad, economic deals with Taiwan, Korea, Japan et al, cutting the Chinese out of our markets, make plans for Nepal and Bhutan....and oh yeah, this is a lot to get done...so we can sip yak tea with PLA kamandus when we have a moment here and there.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 27 Oct 2020 18:43

I'm told CCP is dishing out subsidies to cover off increases in duties to chinese companies supplying India. War is on every front.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Oct 2020 02:32

sum wrote:Saar, all you say is right but i recall reading from many many years about how DRDO/OFB/<xyz> was on the case to cut down the costly imports ( need not be the best of class but suffices for our needs) and hence, my question

Im honestly surprised that with a stated goal of defence labs working on atleast few of these items and having so much experience over 35 years and having brigades worth of troops posted all year long since the 99 war, we are still importing 80% of even basic gear like pickaxes etc

The article posted above explained the present situation and how all those efforts have now been closed since IA wasnt satisfied/tech was beyond our capability etc and it doesnt look like anything is being done to come out of this perennial "urgent requirement" mode since it doesnt look like a stop gap measure with something being taken up in background to replace for time.

Anyways, my query was answered and anymore would be OT in this thread

What has

about Indian R&D-to-manufacturing process of technical fabrics and gear got to do with border watch in this thread ? You were OT from word go in this particular thread, weren’t you?

This procurement is no “perennial” urgent requirement as you claim. This is an emergency requirement for huge amount of extra mountain troops that came about due to the Chinese games. There has been no serious “perennial” shortage of gear since 90s and this is a cliche that gets repeated about Siachen ops like that “more soldiers die from weather than pakis” etc.

Indian defense labs can come up with solutions that is not available anywhere else in the world or is denied to India. Manufacturing them is another challenge. But both will cost much more if the military market in India is very small, unlike places where there is a civilian market that can be leveraged or if there is a huge export potential. Now, if we try exports, how many countries fight at the altitudes we do - other than US? And if such solutions are available much cheaper elsewhere with minimal threat of sanctions etc, why not ?

Swiss manufacturer will be whingeing because the days of those guys charging an arm and a leg for Indian alpine gear requirements are over. As is the practice of shifting their end-of-line manufacturing of gear to India. Khan is pretty much sitting snug on both the alpine and even the niche telemark gear used by snow troops

The winter is already nigh and faster we get the extra gear needed for 1000s of extra troops the better.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 28 Oct 2020 07:11

In the last NSA's video in Rishikesh, he made the important statement that India will fight in the country and outside it, but not for selfish reasons. This has not received much attention.
If the speculation is that he is referring to Afgh, that means we have an understanding with the US about POK ?.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Oct 2020 07:22

Guddu wrote:In the last NSA's video in Rishikesh, he made the important statement that India will fight in the country and outside it, but not for selfish reasons. This has not received much attention.
If the speculation is that he is referring to Afgh, that means we have an understanding with the US about POK ?.

Maybe he meant Bhutan ( and possibly Nepal given lots of high profile visits by RAW chief/IA chief etc)?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Oct 2020 07:46

Guddu wrote:In the last NSA's video in Rishikesh, he made the important statement that India will fight in the country and outside it, but not for selfish reasons. This has not received much attention.
If the speculation is that he is referring to Afgh, that means we have an understanding with the US about POK ?.

bhutan

D.Mahesh · Post by **D.Mahesh** » 28 Oct 2020 08:26

Deans wrote:
pankajs wrote:Gokhale filed this report only yesterdin from Ladakh on the LAC situation ...

https://stratnewsglobal.com/ladakh-stan ... xed-china/
Ladakh Standoff: India Negotiating On Equal Terms With Outfoxed China

As usual, Crooklaw is spreading FUD...
Ajai Shukla is a useful idiot...

Even in 1962, India counter-attacked fiercely - remember that AMX tank lift? Imagine a 10 year old fauj doing strategic mobility & taking on a million strong enemy - from a position of disadvantage. Caution for India means keeping the powder dry & ready.
Enough lungi shivering
In 1999, I remember right here on BRF, when Tspakis had the guts to saunter in & run the gauntlet (unsuccessfully though) when the Op.Vijay started, no one had a clue of the resources India was about to commit. That Op re-wrote the book on mountain battle forever.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 28 Oct 2020 08:39

sum wrote:
nam wrote:Chinis have cancelled the next round of talks, because we signed BECA. Good. Need to drag the standoff.
Amazing that such big deals being pushed so close to elections.

Guess Trump-ji is confident that he will be back to oversee the deal for next few years

Trump-Ji is a buffoon. Better he never comes back - his lack of leadership is allowing bandwidth to Chinese trade. Transatlantic trade treaty that trump cancelled would have created a large free trade zone that would have excluded China.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 28 Oct 2020 10:05

^^ Will Trump be better than Democrats for Indian interests? That should be the only criteria for us

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 28 Oct 2020 11:54

Dems and other leftist parties of the West are anti-Bharat and anti-Hindu. Period. While Republicans and other conservatives are also enemies of Bharat in long run, as things stand today the left is enemy no.1. We can also not forget left in the West is the biggest supporter of Jihadis all over the world.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Oct 2020 13:45

hnair wrote:
sum wrote:Saar, Now, if we try exports, how many countries fight at the altitudes we do - other than US? And if such solutions are available much cheaper elsewhere with minimal threat of sanctions etc, why not ?

Swiss manufacturer will be whingeing because the days of those guys charging an arm and a leg for Indian alpine gear requirements are over. As is the practice of shifting their end-of-line manufacturing of gear to India. Khan is pretty much sitting snug on both the alpine and even the niche telemark gear used by snow troops

The winter is already nigh and faster we get the extra gear needed for 1000s of extra troops the better.

are jackets for an army at high altitudes different in any way from jackets say being used in USSR or scandanavia in winters which see vvvv low temperatures at sea levels? if yes then India is right in importing but if jackets are same then there is a gap. I mean it would be a irony if jackets imported from USA are actually fabricated in China !!

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 28 Oct 2020 14:53

Boundary issue with India is ‘bilateral’, China tells Mike Pompeo

China has accused United States Secretary of State Mike Pompeo of “repeating old lies” and “violating the norms of international relations” for his comments in New Delhi, saying “the boundary question is a bilateral matter between China and India” and “there is no space for a third party to intervene.”

The strong statement from the Chinese Embassy in New Delhi followed Mr. Pompeo’s remarks at Tuesday’s 2+2 ministerial dialogue, which he attended along with Secretary of Defence Mark Esper, India’s External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar and Defence Minister Rajnath Singh.

Mr. Pompeo said the U.S. “will stand with the people of India as they face threats to their sovereignty and their liberty.” He also hit out at the Communist Party of China (CPC), saying it was “no friend to democracy, the rule of law, transparency, nor to freedom of navigation, the foundation of a free and open and prosperous Indo-Pacific.”

amitdb · Post by **amitdb** » 28 Oct 2020 15:26

Guddu wrote:In the last NSA's video in Rishikesh, he made the important statement that India will fight in the country and outside it, but not for selfish reasons. This has not received much attention.
If the speculation is that he is referring to Afgh, that means we have an understanding with the US about POK ?.

Also this is what RM Rajnath Singh tweeted yesterday.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rajnathsingh ... 8786166784

“In todays meeting we also explored probable capacity building and other joint cooperation activities in third countries, including our neighbourhood and beyond.”

These ‘joint cooperation activities’ could be anything.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 28 Oct 2020 16:28

manjgu wrote: I mean it would be a irony if jackets imported from USA are actually fabricated in China !!

Irony is putting it mildly. If any of the precursor components are mfg in China, Pakistan, or Bangladesh, it becomes a security threat. Imagine if a factory in China or Pakistan got a sudden urgent order for 15k new jackets to a particular specification.

Remember how we detected Pakistan's plans on Siachen.

Indigenizing production of cold weather kits through local private companies isn't just good for national security. It can also be a great way to tap the large winter clothing markets abroad. This isn't a captive small-volume market as has been said by a poster above. The 20-30k order per year might actually be exactly the start that an Indian company would need to get enough capital to break into the consumer markets in Europe and North America.

george · Post by **george** » 28 Oct 2020 17:32

YashG wrote:
sum wrote: Amazing that such big deals being pushed so close to elections.

Guess Trump-ji is confident that he will be back to oversee the deal for next few years
Trump-Ji is a buffoon. Better he never comes back - his lack of leadership is allowing bandwidth to Chinese trade. Transatlantic trade treaty that trump cancelled would have created a large free trade zone that would have excluded China.

I am curious to know your opinion on Biden-ji.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Oct 2020 20:43

Warning Don't make this thread a US Election Thread. We are not interested. Formal warning.

nam · Post by **nam** » 28 Oct 2020 21:24

Just found out that US with 83.5% and India with 11.5%, make up 95% of Chinese trade surplus!

Chinis have surplus of 430B. Fundamentally two countries have been bankrolling Chinese profits!

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 28 Oct 2020 21:34

=== whines deleted KV Raghav garu please take your whines to the whine thread ====

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 28 Oct 2020 23:14

kvraghav wrote:.... we indians are just a bunch of crooks United together by geography. Some of us are not corrupt, not because we want to be but because we do not have the opportunity to be corrupt.

Saar i'd say that we're not crooks or corrupts, we're something far worse. We're 'indifferent' with a "chalta-hai" attitude.

We simply let things be and let our fates be in the hands of atma-parmatma, karma-dharma etc

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 29 Oct 2020 00:33

cold weather jackets are not needed in India? many parts of North India gets really cold right? I went to visit my Late-Sister in Delhi and the cold was unbearable. No modern cold weather gear - heaters, jackets, hand/foot warmers. the demand for cold weather gear should be huge in India!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Oct 2020 02:05

V_Raman wrote:cold weather jackets are not needed in India? many parts of North India gets really cold right? I went to visit my Late-Sister in Delhi and the cold was unbearable. No modern cold weather gear - heaters, jackets, hand/foot warmers. the demand for cold weather gear should be huge in India!

Milspec cold weather jackets needed in Ladakh and Siachen might be similar to the high end Goretex jackets available in the US and European countries which retail for hundreds of dollars. How many civilians in India can afford those or even need them? They might not be needed in most places even in the US, but every other family there heads to the plentiful ski resorts in the winter and many buy those jackets just for that. The much higher per capita income means that a much larger section of the population can afford them as well.

Besides, most parts of North India with high population density don't even get snow. You only find it in the high altitude regions. Not equivalent to the vast swathes of North America and Europe which get enveloped in snow in the winter.

Of course this doesn't mean we shouldn't be making cold weather gear and exporting it. China and the whole of east asia got rich selling products to Western consumers which their own people did not need or could not afford. Now they can thanks to the growing incomes in their own countries and they have local manufacturers already available from whom they can buy those products. But unfortunately we have never followed such an export oriented economic policy to our own detriment. This is just one way in which it hurts us. But I am getting way too OT here and will stop.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Oct 2020 04:39

A survival parka may cost $1000 retail. Good for -50C.

Bought in bulk or made in India coat should be 3-400 dollars.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Oct 2020 05:28

V_Raman wrote:cold weather jackets are not needed in India? many parts of North India gets really cold right? I went to visit my Late-Sister in Delhi and the cold was unbearable. No modern cold weather gear - heaters, jackets, hand/foot warmers. the demand for cold weather gear should be huge in India!

It's a demand and supply thing and weather and cold weather needs are relative. Take the US Mid West for example. I happened to travel through it last year during the polar vortex. The Chicago metro area is home to about 10 Million people. Winter temperatures there can dip as low as -30C. Add wind on top of that. You don't see that sort of winter in many high population density areas in N. India. So factor in the survival needs for routine winters in some of the areas with a population that does spend on gear for winter sport and recreation and you have supply to meet the demand. It isn't uncommon in some of these areas for a middle class family to drop a couple of thousand dollars on jackets for all of the family members. Its just part of life.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 29 Oct 2020 06:07

The more I learn here - it is sobering to see how far behind the life of an avg Indian is. I cannot even get the normal terry cotton towel I get from Costco for $10 in India - that is a luxury there. People don’t even know it exists :-(

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Oct 2020 06:17

V_Raman wrote:The more I learn here - it is sobering to see how far behind the life of an avg Indian is. I cannot even get the normal terry cotton towel I get from Costco for $10 in India - that is a luxury there. People don’t even know it exists :-(

This is a rather offensive post on a number of levels.

The terry cotton towel is available and for less than $10. My local shop will sell you that.

My parents can afford a $100 terry cotton towel but will never use those!!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Oct 2020 06:19

V_Raman wrote:The more I learn here - it is sobering to see how far behind the life of an avg Indian is. I cannot even get the normal terry cotton towel I get from Costco for $10 in India - that is a luxury there. People don’t even know it exists :-(

What is this supposed to mean? Folks spend money on what they require and the surplus income is what goes on stuff that is nice to have. The question is not whether Indians generally can afford to buy heavy winter gear. The question is whether there is a need for it. It's pretty much like that the world over. Things get bucketed into essential and nice to haves. If you live in New Delhi, where winter temperatures can dip to say low single digits or perhaps even lower once a decade or more then unless you travel extensively in very cold areas then very cold weather gear is not essential for you to live your routine. In many parts of the world this isn't an option because it gets colder. A lot colder. No one here even suggested that cold weather jackets aren't needed in parts of N India. What folks did say was that the type of gear that we are referencing here (that will keep you warm in extreme winter conditions) isn't really essential in most of the high population areas of north India. So where there isn't a very large consumer market, there is generally limited supply and domestic manufacturing that supports (and is supported by) a local need. If Delhi transitioned into the frozen tundra every winter, I'm sure delhiites would be spending a ton of money stocking up on extreme winter gear and there would be a natural domestic market with good supply at different price points and value. Most of the areas in N India that turn frigid in the winter are usually sparsely populated and not large economic centers.

S_Madhukar · Post by **S_Madhukar** » 29 Oct 2020 06:24

This is also the result of us not encouraging Himalayan tourism and alpine sports as we should have. I mean we have foreign tourists who hike and climb the Himalayas but we never encouraged domestic adventure tourism in that sense. hopefully things will change with the younger generation...

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 29 Oct 2020 06:33

sorry didnt mean it to be offensive. We need to be consuming things the industrialized the world consumes to some extent so we can manufacture those in India, use in India by the middle class, and export as well. This is way OT here. I will stop.

D.Mahesh · Post by **D.Mahesh** » 29 Oct 2020 06:43

shyamd wrote:I'm told CCP is dishing out subsidies to cover off increases in duties to chinese companies supplying India. War is on every front.

This is a game that CCP can only lose