Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 28 Jan 2021 05:47

Can anyone shed light if the mk1a has MAWS ? or is it going to begin with Mk2 ?

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 28 Jan 2021 06:29

ramana wrote:
venkat_kv wrote:to all the gurus a noob pooch,
while the current radar in MK1A is supposed to come with collaboration from isreal and ejection seats from martin baker from Uk and engine from GE in the US, the other 340 odd items of which about 60% were made in india. Do we own all the IP and licenses of those items or we are manufacturing some of them while paying licensing fees. An example of something like this that came to mind was actuators i think, initially we imported them and then our desi company was manufacturing them.
No, no and no.
Those three items are purchase items. No collaboration.

ELTA radar is for first 20 Mk1A. Then Uttam radar is cut into production.
No plans to make ejection seats.
GE engine will continue imports per current plans.

Future has many plans but never know which reach finish line.

If I read his comment correctly I think Venkat was actually asking about the other 340 odd items (not the 3 big ticket imports ) and for how many of those small items do we own IPs and licenses for and how many are collaborations/imports from foreign firms

This was also discussed a few days ago

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, I do not know about all 344 systems, but this was posted before in this thread. Not sure if this helps, but FWIW....

1) Auto cannon from Russia (licensed produced by OFB)
2) Ejection seat from Britain
3) IFR probe from Britain
4) Radome from Britain
5) Engine from America
6) SDR from Israel
7) AESAR from Israel (to be switched to Uttam)

IMVHO, #5 (the heart of the plane) and #7 (the brains of the plane) are most important.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 84515?s=20 ---> Indigenous content in Tejas Mk1 is around 59%, It is expected to cross 60% mark in the MK-1A variant.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 68066?s=20 ---> BTW, the content level is in value terms.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Jan 2021 07:09

Davidrock wrote:Can anyone shed light if the mk1a has MAWS ? or is it going to begin with Mk2 ?

No the MAWS is for the Mk2. MAWS is less critical than having a good Radar plus RWR and SPJ combo. The only fighter currently in IAF service with MAWS is the Rafale.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2021 09:15

HAL said they plan to reduce imported LRUs from 120 to 50?
So yes there is a plan to reduce import dependence but due to volume its not viable for total substitution.

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 28 Jan 2021 10:52

Very interesting to watch.
Didn't know where to post the link.

https://youtu.be/v52gZGKDgF0

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 28 Jan 2021 11:11

nachiket wrote:
Davidrock wrote:Can anyone shed light if the mk1a has MAWS ? or is it going to begin with Mk2 ?
No the MAWS is for the Mk2. MAWS is less critical than having a good Radar plus RWR and SPJ combo. The only fighter currently in IAF service with MAWS is the Rafale.

cool

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 28 Jan 2021 14:20

VinodTK wrote:
Please take sometime (45 minutes) and watch it if you are interested in future of IAF, makes you feel proud and have hope. Ten amazing people pursuing their dreams, great job TARMAK

+1

Hoping one day that we will have desi equivalents of Lockmart, Northrop.. maybe some of these young engineers/ their colleagues will be head honchos then.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Jan 2021 01:45

FYI....these tweets are a week old....

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 00704?s=20 ---> HAL to start Tejas Mk1A delivery to IAF by Feb-Mar 2024. Final delivery planned by Nov-Dec 2028.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 89762?s=20 ---> First flight will likely take place earlier. As per contract terms deliveries must begin 36 months after contract date.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Jan 2021 01:56

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 00641?s=20 ---> R Madhavan, HAL: “AESA radar config finalized on LCA Mk.1A is different from AESA radar on Jaguar Darin III. Both radars will be manufactured at Avionics Division, Hyderabad under Transfer of Technology. However, Uttam radar development by LRDE is also under trial with the LCA”.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Jan 2021 02:18

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 46370?s=20 ---> Stay-tuned to the unsung heroes building our Tejas. From the hangars of HAL's Aircraft Division, the second production line. And, on Feb 02nd, Defence Minister will inaugurate the much-awaited third line boosting the production, finally.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Jan 2021 02:25

How do we get a copy of this book?

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 40870?s=20 ---> Radiance in Indian skies: The Tejas saga -- written by Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar (retd) & BR Srikanth will be flying out from AFS Yelahanka on day 1 of #PlaneCarnival. The book is published by DESIDOC.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Jan 2021 02:27

Click on link below for video...

https://twitter.com/AsianetNewsEN/statu ... 98498?s=20 --->

What does the Rs 48,000 crore #Tejas Mark-1A deal with HAL mean for the Indian Air Force?

Wing Commander Amit Ranjan Giri (Retd) shares his views on this 'game-changer'.

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 30 Jan 2021 11:35

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 46370?s=20 ---> Stay-tuned to the unsung heroes building our Tejas. From the hangars of HAL's Aircraft Division, the second production line. And, on Feb 02nd, Defence Minister will inaugurate the much-awaited third line boosting the production, finally.

What's the breakdown for capacities of each line ? .. is it 8+8+8 or is the main line more capable than the converted ones

venkat_kv · Post by **venkat_kv** » 30 Jan 2021 12:25

srai wrote:
venkat_kv wrote:to all the gurus a noob pooch,
while the current radar in MK1A is supposed to come with collaboration from isreal and ejection seats from martin baker from Uk and engine from GE in the US, the other 340 odd items of which about 60% were made in india. Do we own all the IP and licenses of those items or we are manufacturing some of them while paying licensing fees. An example of something like this that came to mind was actuators i think, initially we imported them and then our desi company was manufacturing them.
You might want to read this from ADA which has a list of LRUs. (Few years old though)

INDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT OF LINE REPLACEABLE UNITS (LRU’s) FOR LCA-TEJAS
...

There are 358 LRU's (Components) in the Tejas aircraft, out of which 53% of total LRU's are indigenously developed with in India. In view to reduce the remaining 47% of the import LRU's, ADA has initiated the Indigenous development programme for indigenization of the import LRU's.

The List of Components (LRU's) which belong to different systems of Aircraft, ADA is looking to indigenous is given in the table below.
...

...

ADA is inviting the vendors/developers who are willing to take up the development of above components. ADA will provide all the information about components, Such as Technical Specifications, Test Requirements etc.

...

thanks for the link, srai ji.
it has some info on what items are to be manufactured with obvious hand holding by the ADA folks i guess.

venkat_kv · Post by **venkat_kv** » 30 Jan 2021 12:30

AkshaySG wrote:
ramana wrote: No, no and no.
Those three items are purchase items. No collaboration.

ELTA radar is for first 20 Mk1A. Then Uttam radar is cut into production.
No plans to make ejection seats.
GE engine will continue imports per current plans.

Future has many plans but never know which reach finish line.
If I read his comment correctly I think Venkat was actually asking about the other 340 odd items (not the 3 big ticket imports ) and for how many of those small items do we own IPs and licenses for and how many are collaborations/imports from foreign firms

This was also discussed a few days ago

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, I do not know about all 344 systems, but this was posted before in this thread. Not sure if this helps, but FWIW....

1) Auto cannon from Russia (licensed produced by OFB)
2) Ejection seat from Britain
3) IFR probe from Britain
4) Radome from Britain
5) Engine from America
6) SDR from Israel
7) AESAR from Israel (to be switched to Uttam)

IMVHO, #5 (the heart of the plane) and #7 (the brains of the plane) are most important.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 84515?s=20 ---> Indigenous content in Tejas Mk1 is around 59%, It is expected to cross 60% mark in the MK-1A variant.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 68066?s=20 ---> BTW, the content level is in value terms.

that is correct reading AkshaySG, I was only asking in terms of pure academic interest and to see if we are going to have further bottle necks if suppliers try to arm twist in case of a collaboration or direct imports and rebranding them in the psu's.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 30 Jan 2021 12:56

AkshaySG wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 46370?s=20 ---> Stay-tuned to the unsung heroes building our Tejas. From the hangars of HAL's Aircraft Division, the second production line. And, on Feb 02nd, Defence Minister will inaugurate the much-awaited third line boosting the production, finally.
What's the breakdown for capacities of each line ? .. is it 8+8+8 or is the main line more capable than the converted ones

The current two lines' capacities are 5 and 3...
This 3rd line will make it 5+3+8=16
-
I'm reading in news that the new line is currently modified for trainers... So, in all probability, this line will produce 8 trainers from Mk1 order and 10 trainers from Mk1A order continuously before it switches to Mk1A production...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jan 2021 13:22

Anyone know if Tejas Mk1A design drawings are complete or that's part of this contract?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 31 Jan 2021 00:19

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 31 Jan 2021 06:00

LakshmanPST wrote:
AkshaySG wrote:
What's the breakdown for capacities of each line ? .. is it 8+8+8 or is the main line more capable than the converted ones
The current two lines' capacities are 5 and 3...
This 3rd line will make it 5+3+8=16
-
I'm reading in news that the new line is currently modified for trainers... So, in all probability, this line will produce 8 trainers from Mk1 order and 10 trainers from Mk1A order continuously before it switches to Mk1A production...

Don’t forget that ADA will produce their prototypes for various projects from these facilities too like the MK.2, NP-5 NLCA, TEDBF, AMCA and possibly even some flying wings UCAV prototypes.

Only once the prototypes are proven will they move forward to setting up dedicated production facilities for each type that may not even be under HAL’a ambit (afaik AMCA will be made by a public/private consortium)

srai · Post by **srai** » 31 Jan 2021 07:09

^^^

Capacities of existing facilities will increase as more of the Tier-1 outsourcing work of major subassemblies takes place. More space available once jigs for wings, fins and fuselage are moved. HAL chairman mentioned a capacity of 25 final assembly units/year when that happens.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 31 Jan 2021 10:12

Rakesh wrote:How do we get a copy of this book?

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 40870?s=20 ---
]

I have bought these books from Book Fairs held annually in New Delhi. They always put up their stalls there. I don't know if there will be one this year though.
You can try contacting them via this link.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/desidoc-journal ... technology

https://www.drdo.gov.in/hi/publications

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 31 Jan 2021 12:28

#AKM on HAL LCA Shop Floor

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Jan 2021 20:25

AkshaySG wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/13 ... 46370?s=20 ---> Stay-tuned to the unsung heroes building our Tejas. From the hangars of HAL's Aircraft Division, the second production line. And, on Feb 02nd, Defence Minister will inaugurate the much-awaited third line boosting the production, finally.
What's the breakdown for capacities of each line ? .. is it 8+8+8 or is the main line more capable than the converted ones

nice picture. which part of the plane is the right shot? plenty of bolts there.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2021 21:10

Tejas at the end of the tunnel
https://www.deccanherald.com/specials/s ... 45482.html
31 Jan 2021

By Saurav Jha

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2021 21:12

Gurus, what are the local developments in this field?

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 44321?s=20 ---> Italy is ready to sell Skyward IRST pods for Tejas Mk1A to India if ban on Leonardo is lifted:

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 31 Jan 2021 23:16

Rakesh wrote:Tejas at the end of the tunnel
https://www.deccanherald.com/specials/s ... 39925.html
31 Jan 2021

By Saurav Jha

Think that link leads to a different article

Here's the link to the Tejas piece

https://www.deccanherald.com/specials/s ... 45482.html

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 31 Jan 2021 23:18

French also recently offered TALIOS. One more import and it will be kichdi.
Leonardo's expendable decoy Britecloud is something we should try to get since we dont have any in our fleet.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2021 23:22

AkshaySG wrote:Think that link leads to a different article

Here's the link to the Tejas piece

https://www.deccanherald.com/specials/s ... 45482.html

My apologies. I have fixed the link in my original post. Thank you for pointing this out.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2021 23:27

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/135 ... 95264?s=20 ---> Perhaps the biggest press conference at @AeroIndia show this year with the contract for 83 LCA Mk1A & trainer jets set to be signed at the show.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2021 00:50

LakshmanPST wrote:
AkshaySG wrote: What's the breakdown for capacities of each line ? .. is it 8+8+8 or is the main line more capable than the converted ones
The current two lines' capacities are 5 and 3...
This 3rd line will make it 5+3+8=16
-
I'm reading in news that the new line is currently modified for trainers... So, in all probability, this line will produce 8 trainers from Mk1 order and 10 trainers from Mk1A order continuously before it switches to Mk1A production...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2021 00:52

SriKumar wrote:
AkshaySG wrote: What's the breakdown for capacities of each line ? .. is it 8+8+8 or is the main line more capable than the converted ones
nice picture. which part of the plane is the right shot? plenty of bolts there.

As per Anantha Krishnan, this is the central fuselage area and specifically the fuel tank portion.

nam · Post by **nam** » 01 Feb 2021 00:59

The wing takes 5 months! it must be the most complicated part in the aircraft and probably the prime reason for any delays. He mentions about the time taken to rivet the composite. It must be about riveting that metallic surface on to the composite wings. I hope ADA & HAL figures out a some how get that metal and composites together without having to rivet so much..

If I am not wrong the metallic surface is to handle lighting! Composite don't conduct

L&T has started providing the wings since SP16. I am sure other Tier 1 suppliers are providing the fuselage as well.

I was surprised to see them building those in-house. May be the private guys are providing the SP parts, while HAL be doing the trainers..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2021 06:25

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/135 ... 95264?s=20 ---> Perhaps the biggest press conference at @AeroIndia show this year with the contract for 83 LCA Mk1A & trainer jets set to be signed at the show.

Time for a quiet celebration. A great milestone for Indian aviation.

Like Sagara's children many stalwarts worked and toiled to bring Tejas to fruition.

The final logjam was resolved by sincere efforts of well wishers.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Feb 2021 06:51

Truly a heartfelt thank you to all those who assisted Team Tejas to get this order.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2021 08:25

So many giants from K Harinarayana, P Subramaniam, and so on.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Feb 2021 09:35

nam wrote:...

L&T has started providing the wings since SP16. I am sure other Tier 1 suppliers are providing the fuselage as well.

I was surprised to see them building those in-house. May be the private guys are providing the SP parts, while HAL be doing the trainers..

Process to outsource major components is a gradual one especially in India where you have a lot of first timers doing Tier-1 work. HAL themselves have been trying to optimize the process first before outsourcing and handholding their partners.

Beneficiaries will be Mk1A, MWF, AMCA, and TEDBF. By then, all these Tier-1s will have built out their capacities and acquired skills. One or more will eventually host final assembly line(s) by the time AMCA comes around.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 01 Feb 2021 09:45

FWIW... TOIlet paper states that new plant will opened with 16 ac/year capacity. Existing is 8 ac/year. Does that mean 24 ac/year ?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 618697.cms

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 01 Feb 2021 11:29

Rakesh wrote:...

Interesting OT tidbit at around 8:00 mins... HAL received draft RFP for HTT40...

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 01 Feb 2021 12:05

srai wrote:
venkat_kv wrote:to all the gurus a noob pooch,
while the current radar in MK1A is supposed to come with collaboration from isreal and ejection seats from martin baker from Uk and engine from GE in the US, the other 340 odd items of which about 60% were made in india. Do we own all the IP and licenses of those items or we are manufacturing some of them while paying licensing fees. An example of something like this that came to mind was actuators i think, initially we imported them and then our desi company was manufacturing them.
You might want to read this from ADA which has a list of LRUs. (Few years old though)

INDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT OF LINE REPLACEABLE UNITS (LRU’s) FOR LCA-TEJAS
...

There are 358 LRU's (Components) in the Tejas aircraft, out of which 53% of total LRU's are indigenously developed with in India. In view to reduce the remaining 47% of the import LRU's, ADA has initiated the Indigenous development programme for indigenization of the import LRU's.

The List of Components (LRU's) which belong to different systems of Aircraft, ADA is looking to indigenous is given in the table below.
...

...

ADA is inviting the vendors/developers who are willing to take up the development of above components. ADA will provide all the information about components, Such as Technical Specifications, Test Requirements etc.

...

We have submitted a proposal for indigenising one of these LRUs under the TDF scheme of DRDO, however the progress of approval on their side is quite slow. The task of indigenous technology development is quite tedious and can only go forward with strong political will, otherwise babus will be totally relaxed and not take any decision.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Feb 2021 13:24

Rakesh wrote:Tejas at the end of the tunnel
https://www.deccanherald.com/specials/s ... 45482.html
31 Jan 2021

By Saurav Jha

This is a superb article. Parts of it needs to be quoted to highlight the big changes that the Mk1A brings.

The Cost Fallacy The basic cost of a fighter aircraft refers to the actual cost of production, while excluding costs incurred due to R&D and additional costs related to spares, maintenance, support equipment and training. The procurement cost, however would typically include these heads in addition to the basic cost. The total CCS sanction of Rs 45,696 crore is the overall procurement cost for 83 Tejas units, including as it does ancillary allocations for customs duties and GST, maintenance-related spares stockpiling, consultancy charges to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is the developer of the Tejas platform, training and ground support equipment, as well as exchange rate variation. These ancillary allocations account for over Rs 20,000 crore, with the total basic cost of acquiring 73 Tejas Mk1A and the 10 Mk1 trainer units being a few hundred crores north of Rs 25,000 crore. However, simply dividing that total basic cost by 83 doesn’t give us the basic cost per unit of the Mk1A either, since the Mk1 trainer does not cost the same as the Mk1A. As such, the basic per unit cost of the Mk1A will be Rs 309 crore over the course of production, while that of the Mk1 trainer version would be around Rs 280 crore. These figures have been confirmed by HAL and corroborated to this writer by the Defence Research and Development organisation (DRDO), which controls ADA.

The Capability

And what will the IAF get for Rs 309 crore? Quite a lot, actually. The Tejas Mk1A will be a major step up from the Tejas Mk1 fighter version in terms of operational capability, survivability and maintainability. For one, the Mk1A will feature a state-of-the art active electronically scanned array radar (AESA), instead of a mechanically scanned array Other improvements include the integration of a pylon mounted self-protection jammer pod, software-defined radio for secure network-centric operations, smart multifunctional displays, an improved radio altimeter, a unified video-cum-digital recorder, satnav, a combined interrogator/transponder, i.e., a contemporary identification friend or foe (IFF) system, besides a new digital flight control computer (DFCC). While the Mk1’s DFCC was based on a 386 series processor, the new DFCC will feature PowerPC -based computing architecture with improved performance. The Mk1A will also incorporate various new line replaceable units (LRUs) to cater to obsolescence issues. The Mk1A’s use of a press-fit mechanism, instead of 24 different physical connectors as as is the case with the Mk1, will reduce maintenance overheads.

In fact, the Mk1A will also feature some structural changes, such as the greater use of composites, which will reduce airframe weight; and reduced supersonic drag through the use of more aerodynamic pylons. The outboard pylons will also feature dual-racks which will be able to carry the ASRAAM close combat missile, which is more modern than the R-73 variants used on the Mk1.

In general, the Mk1A will feature better weapons in both the air-to-air and air-to-ground regimes. In terms of overall sensor fit and avionics, the Tejas Mk1A will be superior to any other fighter in the IAF’s current inventory barring the recently inducted Dassault Rafale. Even the upgraded Mirage 2000s, which were modified for a per unit procurement cost of Rs 167 crore, do not have an equivalent radar, as revealed in Parliament by the Ministry of Defence in 2013.

Importantly, there is no light fighter in the world with such features (forget about medium or heavy ones) that India can buy at this basic cost, some press reports notwithstanding. And when it comes to procurement cost, the Tejas Mk1A is a hands down winner, judging by fighter tenders worldwide. For example, back in 2016, Botswana was considering the purchase of a mere eight Gripen Cs (a comparable fighter to the Tejas Mk1A but one that does not feature an AESA radar) for $1.7 billion. The only light fighter with an AESA radar that will have a basic unit cost comparable to the Mk1A would be an upgraded Sino-Pakistani JF-17. But in any case, as the IAF Chief confirmed recently, the Mk1A, in terms of overall technology, is “far ahead” of JF-17 variants.

Renergising the Ecosystem

...

The Mk1A, after all, will feature sub-systems and components that are being developed for new programmes, such as the Tejas Mk2 and the fifth-generation-plus advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA). For instance, beyond the first 20 units, the projected Mk1As will sport the indigenous Uttam AESA radar, whose successors will find their way onto future Indian fighter developments. The SDR used on the Tejas Mk1A can also be expected to be replaced by an indigenous alternative for which work for which work is underway in public-private partnership mode.

As DRDO Chhairman Sateesh Reddy said to this writer: “The CCS clearance is a major boost to the existing aerospace ecosystem while making it ready to graduate to the creation of fifth-gen It is therefore a harbinger of self-reliance in the domain of fighter aircraft development.” Indeed, the 83-unit order will help increase the overall indigenous content of the Tejas platform to over 60% from the current 50% or so. Several fuel, hydraulic and electro-mechanical LRUs will be sourced from domestic vendors. Naturally, this growing vendor base will make it easier to both prototype and manufacture future ADA-developed combat aircraft. For the immediate, the Tejas ecosystem is being used to is being used to build five Tejas Mk-2 prototypes, with the first of these being rolled out in 2022.

Greater indigenous content will also help address criticism about the substantial imported content of the Tejas. Of course, it is another matter that those who adopt this line of criticism often have no problem with wholly imported systems over which India has no design control and has had to pay a small fortune for upgrades. However, for true ‘Atmanirbharta’, India will have to develop its own fighter-class low bypass turbofan jet engines, but then that is a story for another day.