Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 85447?s=20 ---> India's Dynamatic Tech to manufacture various parts for USAF's Boeing F-15EX fighter aircrafts.

[A Sharma]

Army taps Bengaluru-based firm for specialised sights in use with forces abroad

One contract is for about 600 pieces of multi-functional thermal imaging binoculars for target acquisition and the other is for multi mission-sight, which can be mounted on the helmet and also the weapon. The order was placed with a Bengaluru-based firm — Tonbo Imaging.

[NRao]

https://mobile.twitter.com/DesiEscobar0 ... 7386262531 ----->

US has offered F/A-18, F-15EX and F-21 fighter aircraft along with MQ-9B Drones to India: White House statement on Modi-Biden first in person meeting.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 05767?s=20 ---> Defence deal of six P-8I naval reconnaissance planes ($1.2 billion) and NASAMS-2 ($2 billion) are on the table between US and India.

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 00362?s=20 ---> Heavy-duty winter clothes, C-130J, new weapons for special forces and AWACS are also on the agenda.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 48961?s=20 ---> Report: India negotiating with US to purchase weapons & equipment for India's special forces units.

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 56706?s=20 ---> Courtesy: @SandeepUnnithan

[Cain Marko]

Not exactly sure what NASAMs add to the picture for India but the rest could all be useful. Prioritywise:
Mq9
P8
Istars
C130
NASAMs

[YashG]

Yea why nasams.

[Rakesh]

That is mystery Sirjee that we are all trying to figure out.

[Pratyush]

Tribute to the new overlords?

Or access to ground launched AMRAAM?

Take your pick.

[AshishA]

Tribute to the new overlords?

Or access to ground launched AMRAAM?

Take your pick.

My bet is on tribute to overlords.

[arvin]

S400 deliveries beginning in December.

Bonus would be access to AMRAAM.

[YashG]

Cant be tribute - we can pay tribute by buying other systems that we need in bigger numbers. Like why not extra P8s or C130J. Has to be some other reason. Or Like Admiral says - IAF knows something that we dont - - to explain mysteries (or maybe follies) of IAF.

[Cain Marko]

S400 deliveries beginning in December.

Bonus would be access to AMRAAM.

Will it be possible to operationalize it immediately in the north? . Somewhere around leh would mean massive SA/control over western Tibet and PoK, even close to AFPAK.

[nam]

Seems like money is not an issue. MK1A order was made to wait for years and had to go through "cost committee", ordered exactly 83. Our private companies wait for orders with bated breadth.

While somewhere there is enough money to pay 100 million for a propeller drone. Money to get brand new C130J, where second hand are easily available from UK. That is more than the cost of LCA, LCH etc.

We could get the C130J which UK is selling. Get cheaper drones from Israel and plow the money saved in to local R&D. We don't have MAKE/HALE type drones, because our companies know it may never be ordered

[YashG]

83 MK1As till 2029 - seems to me like an absolute ploy to first create an urgency & then order imports. Same goes for LCHs. Same for Helina ATGMs. MoD is likely the leaking faucet.

[Cain Marko]

Seems like money is not an issue. MK1A order was made to wait for years and had to go through "cost committee", ordered exactly 83. Our private companies wait for orders with bated breadth.

While somewhere there is enough money to pay 100 million for a propeller drone. Money to get brand new C130J, where second hand are easily available from UK. That is more than the cost of LCA, LCH etc.

We could get the C130J which UK is selling. Get cheaper drones from Israel and plow the money saved in to local R&D. We don't have MAKE/HALE type drones, because our companies know it may never be ordered

83 MK1As till 2029 - seems to me like an absolute ploy to first create an urgency & then order imports. Same goes for LCHs. Same for Helina ATGMs. MoD is likely the leaking faucet.

You maybe on to something. India might very well see it more advantageous to import certain hardware so long as it's strategic component.. Nuke triad is completely independent. At the same time a number of crucial conventional components will also be made at home... radars, sams, AAMs etc. But periodic juicy, large purchases will still be from abroad to keep strategic leverage.

These maybe a means to get more wiggle room in external affairs. Hence lots of monies are kept aside for terribly priced phoren maal... From c130/nasams to scorpene and t90/ talwar. None of these purchases make sense unless seen from the above perspective. This is likely to continue until India plays a more central role virtue of it's economic clout.

Yes, desh is essentially bankrolling foreign mic at the cost of it's own. But this probably prevents the larger powers from banding together against Indian interests. And that's just my guess. In truth I suspect that the MK2 might be jilted entirely but hopefully with more mk1a and tedbf ordered.

[fanne]

I think we need AMCA from 2025, either in parallel or entirely this and junk mk2.
However, AMCA is not coming by 2025, but by 2030 or so (and China will have 100s of LO planes by 2030, some less capable may come to TSP). I hope by 2030, IF (and very big IF) we have AMCA leave MK2...
My hunch is MK2 is risk mitigation strategy to have more 4.5 gen plane (in league of Rafale, except for range and payload) in case AMCA is delayed (and it has many new technology, delay looks more probable).
We may be buying a 5th gen plane from offshore post Rafale if AMCA is delayed or fails. Hopefully it will not come to that. At that point of time, between LCAMK1A, Mk2, TEDBF, ORCA we would have covered all categories, except LO (5th gen)

[Cain Marko]

I think we need AMCA from 2025, either in parallel or entirely this and junk mk2.

Very unlikely. Possible by 2035. Until then, the hope is mk1a and tedbf/orca. The latter because navy will want to get off fulcrum.

A few pakfa, f35 may also come in late 2020s depending on chinese progress on 5g.

[V_Raman]

the way it is going - we will have all mk1a by 2035 and the rest will come from foreign fighters onlee. MCA/MK2 is after that IMO.

[YashG]

“HAL has already supplied three LCHs to the IAF. The first LCH for the army was completed last month. By the year-end, a total of 10 LCHs would have been delivered to the two services. We are retaining five LCHs for the next year’s programme to keep the production line operational,” a senior HAL official said.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 35102.html

Imagine! HAL can deliver more LCHs but they are just slowing down to keep the line operational. & Here we are on the other hand trying to keep up our numbers. Then suddenly we will find money for an urgent procurement of some fancy item in handfuls. Atleast LCH line shouldn't be starving of orders - even bandarland would have found money if they had an LCH line.

[Karan M]

I swear the tendency to use arms imports as some strategic tie indicator needs to be revisited. The additional C130s and P8s, dropping a single airframe from each and reducing the Predator buy, plus dropping the NASAMS altogether would give us enough to churn out more LCHs in number.

[fanne]

I don't like $100 million for each Reaper UCAV, same price as 1 Rafale (granted Reaper has perhaps the whole package + maintenance + weapons), still too costly.
The real painful point is that Reaper is well within our capacity - from engine to airframe to avionics. Only DRDO has taken 15 years and has nothing to show for it, perhaps some Rustom prototypes with dubious promises of future capabilities.

[YashG]

If we gave DRDO $2 Billion, DRDO would have been able to make Rustom by now.

[fanne]

i dont think money for Rustom was ever an issue. It has been in 'development' from 2000s (first flight in 2009) and yet no production aircraft

[John]

If we gave DRDO $2 Billion, DRDO would have been able to make Rustom by now.

Turkey's Bayraktar developed their UAV at far less budget than what we have spent for UAV program using off the shelf components, when there is lack of proper management, accountability, leadership and focus no amount of $$ will fix it.

[fanne]

we should allow private player in HALE and MALE categories and incentivize through tax breaks for any component in that, that is indigenous. Maybe 3% tax extra (over existing tax) for all foreign made items, 2% extra tax if foreign made but locally assembled...and -3% tax for indigenous. The tax % can of course vary and let Tata, L&T and others play in that market.

[Karan M]

If we gave DRDO $2 Billion, DRDO would have been able to make Rustom by now.

Turkey's Bayraktar developed their UAV at far less budget than what we have spent for UAV program using off the shelf components, when there is lack of proper management, accountability, leadership and focus no amount of $$ will fix it.

LOL, many off the shelf components are denied to us. DRDOs entire budget is $2.6 Bn, Turkey is a NATO member, still gets access to buy components we dont.

[Karan M]

i dont think money for Rustom was ever an issue. It has been in 'development' from 2000s (first flight in 2009) and yet no production aircraft

Money is always an issue. Remains one.

[John]

Turkey's Bayraktar developed their UAV at far less budget than what we have spent for UAV program using off the shelf components, when there is lack of proper management, accountability, leadership and focus no amount of $$ will fix it.

LOL, many off the shelf components are denied to us. DRDOs entire budget is $2.6 Bn, Turkey is a NATO member, still gets access to buy components we dont.

All the parts and components have no NATO specific security clearance one of reasons many countries (Canada) were surprised to see they were supplying parts to Bayraktar and had to specifically ban it.

For better or worse something needs to change let’s involve private industries and cut drdo out. I know been critical of this of our UAV program for many years and sad to see nothing has changed.

Simple showing a prototype and waiting a decade for its first flight and crash happens and wait another couple years before it’s next flight by which time it has become obsolete just doesn’t cut it.

[brar_w]

Part of it was that they used commercial systems where possible and not military systems that require approval. Another factor was they sought approval for certain military systems but never sought export clearance and just passed it off thus violating terms. I think that was the case with Canadian equipment. Using commercial navigation and PNT equipment means that these systems would not really make any difference against anyone with credible Electronic Warfare and C-ISR capability. Not sure that is very relevant for the IAF given the threat from China. You need resilient systems even for the non stealthy stuff. The off the shelf commercial Garmin stuff won't survive the first few hours of peer conflict given how cheap, and how efficient GPS jamming has now become. Unless you have resilient receivers you aren't getting anything out of these systems against a competent opponent.

[John]

^ Yeah good point I believe against Pakistan and peacetime monitoring using off the shelf components would quite sufficient and it would allow private industries to further develop a more robust UCAV platform.

[YashG]

Commit $2 Bn in sales or R&D and see what pvt indian companies or DRDO can achieve in UAV systems. I'm assuming the same MoD babooze who drag their feet in sanctioning proper budgets for Defence R&D or desi purchase, readily open our coffers for phoren maal. Why is NASAMS like eqpt not on negative list, now that we have nearly achieved self sufficiency with Akash family, Barak family, Ground launched Astra etc.

[John]

Commit $2 Bn in sales or R&D and see what pvt indian companies or DRDO can achieve in UAV systems. I'm assuming the same MoD babooze who drag their feet in sanctioning proper budgets for Defence R&D or desi purchase, readily open our coffers for phoren maal. Why is NASAMS like eqpt not on negative list, now that we have nearly achieved self sufficiency with Akash family, Barak family, Ground launched Astra etc.

Yea NASAMS makes little sense for me felt like something we decided to green light for Trump admin to ease up pressure because of S-400 deal and to keep him happy. With latter gone I think the deal just like Mk. 45 gun deal will be scrapped.

[nam]

More that DRDO, apparently building of large UAV is forbidden as a policy by GoI! As is the case in our country, everything is banned, unless GoI approves it!

The private industries are now asking GoI to do away with this policy. As usual a "committee" has been setup to look in to this!

Anyways neither the services, nor GoI seems to be serious about building a large drone ecosystem. It hands out punny 30M order to our companies, while keeping aside 3B for drone imports!

[Karan M]

All the parts and components have no NATO specific security clearance one of reasons many countries (Canada) were surprised to see they were supplying parts to Bayraktar and had to specifically ban it.

For better or worse something needs to change let’s involve private industries and cut drdo out. I know been critical of this of our UAV program for many years and sad to see nothing has changed.

Simple showing a prototype and waiting a decade for its first flight and crash happens and wait another couple years before it’s next flight by which time it has become obsolete just doesn’t cut it.

This is incorrect on multiple levels.

Almost all countries which make aerospace grade items, especially dual-use and defense have to submit end user certificates to their national authorities.

Depending on which country has asked for it, those certificates are processed and cleared. NATO national authorities all process certificates differently depending on whether you are a member of NATO or not.

Even items which are not deemed restricted (non defense) are flagged based on country of export.

In many cases, this is extended to even basic equipment and items are denied to India or flagged at the last moment. This is not merely restricted to aerospace and defense but extends to raw materials across multiple industries, semiconductors as well.

Manufacturing gear, even used items are often denied to us.

Most of our state owned firms are on "lists". There is a terse rejection and we are asked to contact the Govt to sort it out.

In the case of the US, apart from the above clearances, they also have ITAR. Apart from ITAR, they also require specific items to be forwarded for political clearance from the Dept of State. There are multiple stakeholders, who can and will stop outright sales, let alone technology transfer.

In the case of a program like Rustom, you can't depend on 2-3 imports alone, using cut-outs or pvt firms importing on your behalf. PRC does this a lot. Western establishments have adapted. Plus, once you go into series production, you need regular supplies, OEM support, lifecycle spares management.

In the Rustoms case, even its flight-worthy actuators were denied.They had to be developed from scratch by ECIL under a separate program. This is merely one example. A few years back, the LCA team proposed a consultancy with Boeing for high-alpha trials. That was denied. We went to EADS for instance. Each such event wastes months of effort, and the denial invariably happens at the last moment.

Even our cooperation with "friendly" countries is under round the clock scrutiny. This is the specific reason we often pay through the nose for "special arrangements" with these countries to import special components and subsystems. One program was held up for a year or so till the so-called highest leadership was flagged and a special presidential approval was granted for what was otherwise a commercial JV.

Even contractual agreements are not held to, and we don't seek legal recourse for the fear that it might jeopardize other ongoing programs. In the recent past, a JV was held up because our "friendly" partner decided at the last moment to not transfer tech to a state owned firm, as they were afraid DRDO would leverage their IP for other programs. Luckily a pvt company stepped in and struck a JV deal so as to allow the foreign partner a significant stake in control and ownership. DRDO is now asking that JV to develop as a developer in its own right and become part of the overall ecosystem as the Indian side has invested in manufacturing and assembly, so even that is useful.

A couple of years back, DRDO guys were not even allowed to a conference where the who's who of worldwide research were presenting. That's the difference between how NATO treats its own, and how historical relationships function as versus the parvenus from India trying to break into a closed club. We often require state level clearance for each and every program.

These are the contours of 24/7 technology denial. That's how stuff goes on behind the scenes to ensure uninterrupted supplies for our key programs like Rustom. Every time they deny us something, we have to go ahead and make a replacement locally or source it from someplace else. That again goes through the whole cycle of special approval and then on our side we have to redesign and re-qualify.

And lets not even think that a pvt player has anything near the capacity to manage the above supply chain or build anything as complex as Rustom. Last time a state owned DPSU outsourced even sub-assemblies, they had to step in and manage it back, because, technology denial. A handful of firms are offering to license assemble UAVs - not the same thing.

Rustom is considered a MALE UAV and it is restricted technology.

And it is the services who want an end to end proven supply chain. They dont want to induct something highly expensive based off of imported systems that will be stopped because of some item denied export post production. They want DRDO to localize wherever possible. That's the entire point of Rustom vs Heron. The Israelis guarantee us that when they sell us Heron they will manage the entire supply chain and they have export clearances to India for all non Israeli items.

Turkeys own UAVs received substantial Israeli hand-holding and expertise till Erdogans spats with Israel stopped the cooperation. We have had nothing remotely similar given our budgetary constraints. Take a look at how much our JVs cost, we simply can't afford to pay for TOT on the scale we require and compensate our partners for their self-allocated prices for IP.

Rustom like all UAVs has a premium on payload. Which also means the payloads have to be highly optimized for weight, and yet not compromise on performance. Again, till local equivalents mature, we have had to strike deals with "friendly" countries, none of that comes cheap or easy, because Rustom is directly competing with the same nations UAVs in the Indian market.

Like the Tejas, Rustom will come when it comes, but it will be significantly local and create the base for making many more on its technology base.

Right now, we do have a lot of imported items in it, but whatever we do has been painstakingly cleared through official channels and is legitimate. But we have had to make a lot of stuff ourselves thanks to scrutiny which countries like Turkey simply don't face.

They are in Europe and a NATO member, a bulwark against Russia for decades. Deep ties to most US, mainland Euro, western firms and establishments. Even CAATSA hasnt changed that.

[VickyAvinash]

All the parts and components have no NATO specific security clearance one of reasons many countries (Canada) were surprised to see they were supplying parts to Bayraktar and had to specifically ban it.



Right now, we do have a lot of imported items in it, but whatever we do has been painstakingly cleared through official channels and is legitimate. But we have had to make a lot of stuff ourselves thanks to scrutiny which countries like Turkey simply don't face.

They are in Europe and a NATO member, a bulwark against Russia for decades. Deep ties to most US, mainland Euro, western firms and establishments. Even CAATSA hasnt changed that.

An eye opener of a post. Thanks for posting Karan M sir...

[arvin]

Yea NASAMS makes little sense for me felt like something we decided to green light for Trump admin to ease up pressure because of S-400 deal and to keep him happy. With latter gone I think the deal just like Mk. 45 gun deal will be scrapped.

IAF is also not interested in this since they already have every possible combination of air defence solution for the borders.
Most likely this purchase will be justified for securing Delhi Airspace to prevent rogue aerial attacks. If so who will be the
Operator? Delhi police?

[Pratyush]

Why can't spyder or Akash be used to protect Delhi. That a brand new system has to be acquired.

[Kakkaji]

Defence Acquisition Council headed by Raksha Mantri approves proposals of value Rs.13,165 cr.

Posted On: 29 SEP 2021 7:24PM by PIB Delhi
Key highlights:

87% procurement from domestic sources
25 ALH Mark III helicopters at a cost of Rs. 3,850 cr.
Rocket ammunition of value Rs. 4,962 cr.

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) in its meeting of 29 September 2021 held under the Chairmanship of Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh accorded Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for Capital Acquisitions proposals for modernization and operational needs of the Indian Armed Forces amounting to approx. Rs.13,165cr.Of the total amount approved, procurement worth Rs. 11,486cr. (87%) is from the domestic sources.

Key approvals include helicopters, guided munition and rocket ammunition. Looking into the need of the Indian Army for an Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) Squadron, to improve its integral lift capability ensuring its operational preparedness, the DAC accorded approval of procurement of 25 ALH Mark III helicopters from M/s HAL under Buy Indian-IDDM at an approx. cost of Rs.3,850 cr,in keeping with the continued thrust towards ‘Aatmanirbhar Bharat’ and ‘Make in India’. Giving boost to Indigenous Design and Development of ammunitions, DAC accorded approval for procurement of Terminally Guided Munition (TGM) and HEPF/RHE Rocket Ammunition under Buy(Indian-IDDM) category at an approx cost ofRs.4,962 cr.from domestic sources. Other proposals worth Rs. 4,353 cr. were also accorded AoN by the DAC.

In addition, the DAC also approved a few amendments to the DAP 2020 as a part of Business Process Re-engineering to ensure further ease of doing business for the industry as well as measures to enhance procurement efficiency and reducing timelines.

[Pratyush]

The most important thing about the DAC clearance is that the initial TGM requirement is for 33372 rounds and further rounds will be ordered on an annual basis.

[fanne]

Excalibur like?