India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 29 Sep 2021 14:21

Maria wrote:Isn't damaging a bridge an act of war?

We do not know the nature of the bridge. It could be of metal or a couple of logs across a rivulet. Whatever the case, it exists so that our troopers can move from point A to point B quickly. By damaging that, they want to delay our deployment into that area. Apart from being a grave provocation, this is also a message that they could have stayed at the bridgehead, caused more problems for IA/ITBP/GOI but did not.

The problem here is that IA actions across the LAC or in areas perceived by CCP to be theirs are generally not "leaked" to press.

But CCP transgressions are leaked to certain journalists via (sympathetic) "sources" maybe with masala.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Sep 2021 16:27

Mort Walker wrote:This isn't one of the areas of mutual disengagement. No reason why PLA troops can't be shot dead in such locations.

In 1958, both the countries listed Barahoti, an 80-square KM sloping pasture, as a disputed area where neither side would send their troops. However, after the 1962 China-Indian war, the ITBP jawans used to patrol the area with weapons in non-combative manner under which the barrel of the gun is positioned downward. During prolonged negotiations on resolving border dispute, the Indian side had unilaterally agreed in June, 2000, that ITBP troops would not be carrying arms to the three posts -- Barahoti, Kauril and Shipki in Himachal Pradesh. The ITBP men do patrolling in civil dress and the pasture attracts Indian shepherds from the border villages tending their sheep and people from Tibet bringing their yaks for grazing. As far back as c. 1952, the IB (Intelligence Bureau) had warned the government about the Tibetan practice of establishing a Police-cum-Customs Post in the Hoti Plain at times, a practice they had given up after the British had taken action. It is on this basis that China intruded into Bara Hoti in 1954 just two months after the signing of the Panchsheel Agreement. When discussion about Bara Hoti came up in the Parliament, Nehru answered, “one should not attach too much importance to these matters and becoming touchy about them rather distorts the picture in our minds”.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Sep 2021 16:35

AshishA wrote:Can someone post main parts of the article? It's behind a pay wall.

I don't subscribe to ET, but I could view it.

Over 100 PLA soldiers crossed the border at Barahoti in Uttarakhand last month, damaged some infrastructure, including a bridge, before retreating, according to officials aware of the situation. The transgression, even as disengagement of troops in eastern Ladakh has been progressing well, has sounded the alarm bells in the central sector.

While Barahoti has not been a major border flashpoint in recent years - minor transgressions are often reported - the place was the first area which saw transborder intrusions by the Chinese, in 1954, which later expanded to other areas and culminated in the 1962 war.

The incident on August 30 did not result in a face-off as PLA soldiers returned before they could be confronted. Over 100 soldiers and 55 horses transgressed over 5 km of Indian territory by crossing the Tun Jun La Pass, security establishment insiders told ET.

While there have been minor PLA transgressions in the sector over the past few years - the last one in July - the scale was much larger, leading to concern in New Delhi given continuing border tensions in eastern Ladakh. Government officials confirmed that Chinese soldiers along with military horses had come to the grazing ground near Barahoti, crossing the Tun Jun La Pass.

P2PLA

It is believed that the group stayed in the vicinity for around three hours. Since the area is a demilitarised zone, the presence of a large number of PLA soldiers led to concern within the security establishment. Sources said the transgression was reported by locals following which teams from ITBP and Army sent across a patrol to verify. However, the Chinese troops vacated before the patrol reached the area, it is learnt.

The Barahoti ridge lies north of the Nanda Devi National Park and troops trek to it from the last motorable point. The ridge is connected to Joshimath, where the Indian Army and ITBP have camps to counter any major PLA operations. The ITBP monitors the nearly 350 km border in Uttarakhand which is part of the Line of Actual Control that divides India and China.

A home ministry official said that Indian and Chinese perceptions about LAC differ, which lead to frequent incursions in the area. An ITBP spokesperson, when contacted, refused to comment. Officials acknowledged that activities of PLA troops have gone up in the region in the past few months. "Earlier also several attempts were made by PLA to infiltrate the Barahoti area. Additional troops have been deployed in the central sector now," said another official. Intelligence agencies have also flagged Chinese activity at the air base near Barahoti. The PLA has also substantially increased its defence across the LAC in the region since the border confrontation in Ladakh last year.

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 29 Sep 2021 17:33

Maria wrote:Isn't damaging a bridge an act of war?

Earlier policy was not to have road infra anywhere near the border area. Chinese intruded then too but nothing to damage. How would that be classified.
They already have 38K sq kms, how that be classified.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 29 Sep 2021 19:11

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 29 Sep 2021 20:13

Maria wrote:War

Sorry it doesn't work that way. Please learn from this forum, read up discussions and don't be so trigger happy.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 02 Oct 2021 23:21

Pratyush wrote:You think that princelings can walk for 5 kms in such altitude?

They would have been sharing horses.

Up until the Mana pass road was created, our Jawans would take mules up to the LAC to patrol. Same for IA patrols up from Gangotri & Badrinath. I suspect we still have a strong mule contingent for patrolling these areas. It's not uncommon at all.

I can see why the report says horses though... if you've ever been on the Kedarnath path, and seen the difference between civilian mules & army mules, the army mules stand head and shoulders above (literally and figuratively) the civvie mules.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 04 Oct 2021 05:47

These YT reports about PLAAF using Skardu air base -- if these reports are true, I don't see how we can just let this go without taking kinetic action. This is too serious to just let go with a "chalta hai" attitude.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Oct 2021 19:26

shyamd wrote:IAF will be conducting a major show of force/demonstration over Dal lake to send message to Neighbors.

MICA-ER and Storm Shadow on IAF Rafale over Dal Lake, Srinagar.

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PM told French President that finances will be tight for the next few years re: arms purchases/deals.

IN wants six nuclear subs and another 6 with AIP. Due to international controls on nuc exports - French are still debating whether they should offer their designs - possible solution is India provides the nuc mini reactor on a french designed/built hull. Brazil model could be an option legally. Nobody in france is sure if IN will have the funds.

Russians offering AIP design next year. Navantia said 2026.
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Indian cyber offense teams reporting more successes against TSP and PLA.

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Armed forces are working on a new SOP arrangement covering LAC.

IA/ITBP/Spec Forces/Ghatak patrols are increasing patrols in areas not previously regularly covered.. PLA trying to interdict this accessibility like the operation where over 100 PLA troops intruded to damage a bridge under construction.

IMO- these things will go away over time. TSPA were firing bullets while fencing was taking place... GOI still got it done.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Oct 2021 05:49

As trust deficit lingers, India & China prepare for another harsh winter deployment in Ladakh
https://theprint.in/defence/as-trust-de ... kh/744559/
04 October 2021

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 06 Oct 2021 22:01

Like Siachen, we will have to continue defending Ladakh all through the year and perhaps even more border areas across Himachal, Sikkim and Arunachal as well in the future. We should grab back territory at every opportunity - thats the only language PLA understands.

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Oct 2021 00:55

https://pageflow.aspi.org.au/mappingdoklam#313455

A 3D deep dive into the India–China border

of particular interest are the rear Chinese supply lines

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 08 Oct 2021 03:23

Cyrano wrote:Like Siachen, we will have to continue defending Ladakh all through the year and perhaps even more border areas across Himachal, Sikkim and Arunachal as well in the future. We should grab back territory at every opportunity - thats the only language PLA understands.

Until India adopts the same posture of territory grabbing where possible - with all neighbors, there may not be peace.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 08 Oct 2021 10:01

India Foils Chinese Incursion in Arunachal Pradesh, Briefly Detains PLA Troops
https://www.news18.com/news/india/exclu ... 98540.html

Sorry no copy paste allowed by news 18.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Oct 2021 11:25

From the above,

A few troops from China were temporary detained by Indian soldiers in Arunachal Pradesh’s Tawang after around 200 of them crossed over into the Indian side from Tibet and attempted to damage unoccupied bunkers, highly placed government sources told News18.com.

The incident took place last week between the border pass of Bum La and Yangtse, close to the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

According to sources, the Chinese patrol party’s transgression into the Indian side of the LAC was strongly contested by Indian troops and a few Chinese soldiers were temporarily detained.

nits · Post by **nits** » 08 Oct 2021 14:18

Indian Soldiers did hospitality of PLA soldiers along the LAC in Arunachal Pradesh after more than 200 PLA soldiers tried to enter in Indian territory. Atleast 10 PLA soldiers are in hospital after hospitality of Indian soldiers

Twitter says- https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1446315984063582211

ritesh · Post by **ritesh** » 08 Oct 2021 14:27

SSridhar wrote:From the above...

Were they made to clean up the mess they originally created?

And Why o why, are we shy from milking it for the propaganda value that it is?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Oct 2021 19:19

ritesh wrote:And Why o why, are we shy from milking it for the propaganda value that it is?

Can I milk it on BRF?

If the reverse was true, can you imagine the rona-dhona from the American apologists on BRF? By now, we would be reading the gyan of if-India-had-a-formal-military-alliance-with-America, this scenario would have never come to pass. India must now decide who her true friends are. This is a serious military failure, but all is not lost. Run into America's all loving arms for salvation and security.

If Modi-Shah had gotten F-16 instead of Rafale, the IAF would easily have around 48 of them. That line always cracks me up!

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Oct 2021 03:14

Bharadwaj wrote:India Foils Chinese Incursion in Arunachal Pradesh, Briefly Detains PLA Troops
https://www.news18.com/news/india/exclu ... 98540.html

Sorry no copy paste allowed by news 18.

GOI goes forces go across the border as well. Both sides are examining preparedness/reaction time in sectors. Regular stuff

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 09 Oct 2021 16:21

Recent news of Paki Army officers being posted in PLA WTC HQ and these Paki like tactics by PLA now seem to be connected. Atleast Paki's knew how far they can stretch before IA delivers them a jhapad, but then these slimy MoFo's may trick PLA to cross that line and may start something leading to unintended consequences. Got to be careful of these Paki snakes.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 09 Oct 2021 16:35

shyamd wrote: GOI goes forces go across the border as well. Both sides are examining preparedness/reaction time in sectors. Regular stuff

Now that is what I am talking about.
Do you ever hear the Chinese Media shitting themselves when we cross over ?

Okay then its time to up the ante on crossing over and fukk turning 20 of their milestones and upping a temporary bridge.

Honestly the dhoti shivering and coweing over this 50 soldiers with 100 horses is depressing more than the Chinese

nam · Post by **nam** » 09 Oct 2021 16:42

We need the chest beating. Without the chest beating GoI will not reform it's procurement process, not invest in technology.

Every future superpower needs an enemy. For Chinis it is US, for us it is China.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 09 Oct 2021 16:53

If PRC can suppress news of its 50 soliders being slaughtered - does one think that some invursuon and dismantling of minor infra will be published in any PRC news forum for Chinese to shiver ??

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Oct 2021 20:21

nits wrote:Indian Soldiers did hospitality of PLA soldiers along the LAC in Arunachal Pradesh after more than 200 PLA soldiers tried to enter in Indian territory. Atleast 10 PLA soldiers are in hospital after hospitality of Indian soldiers

Twitter says- https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1446315984063582211

I can confirm PLA soldiers were detained for hours by IA released after negotiations

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 09 Oct 2021 20:43

shyamd wrote:I can confirm PLA soldiers were detained for hours by IA released after negotiations

There are photos floating on weibo that claim to show "IA soldiers detained by PLA". Is that true?

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 09 Oct 2021 20:47

shyamd wrote:
nits wrote:Indian Soldiers did hospitality of PLA soldiers along the LAC in Arunachal Pradesh after more than 200 PLA soldiers tried to enter in Indian territory. Atleast 10 PLA soldiers are in hospital after hospitality of Indian soldiers
Twitter says- https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1446315984063582211
I can confirm PLA soldiers were detained for hours by IA released after negotiations

Release should happen in a different sector altogether, in a sector where there is an accepted international border such as Nathu La. No point handing them over right then and there.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Oct 2021 20:50

nam wrote:We need the chest beating. Without the chest beating GoI will not reform it's procurement process, not invest in technology.

Every future superpower needs an enemy. For Chinis it is US, for us it is China.

Not a clever idea, but it works. Straight out of Machiavellian politics. Having a visible enemy can bring unlikely people together, for a "greater" cause! Dictators have used it to significant effect. A loftier goal would be staunch patriotism, caring for your country and civilisation

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Oct 2021 20:52

shyamd wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:India Foils Chinese Incursion in Arunachal Pradesh, Briefly Detains PLA Troops
https://www.news18.com/news/india/exclu ... 98540.html

Sorry no copy paste allowed by news 18.
GOI goes forces go across the border as well. Both sides are examining preparedness/reaction time in sectors. Regular stuff

Also curious as to role of paki "officers" in the chinese deployments in east

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 09 Oct 2021 21:08

anupmisra wrote:
shyamd wrote:I can confirm PLA soldiers were detained for hours by IA released after negotiations
There are photos floating on weibo that claim to show "IA soldiers detained by PLA". Is that true?

It's reportedly from the Galwan clash a while back.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 09 Oct 2021 22:05

anupmisra wrote:
shyamd wrote:I can confirm PLA soldiers were detained for hours by IA released after negotiations
There are photos floating on weibo that claim to show "IA soldiers detained by PLA". Is that true?

Just their info warfare branch trying to show superiority… PLA ask us not to release photos in talks yet they backstab. My view - let the professionals who deal with this day in and day out make those calls.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 09 Oct 2021 23:13

shyamd wrote:
nits wrote:Indian Soldiers did hospitality of PLA soldiers along the LAC in Arunachal Pradesh after more than 200 PLA soldiers tried to enter in Indian territory. Atleast 10 PLA soldiers are in hospital after hospitality of Indian soldiers
Twitter says- https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1446315984063582211
I can confirm PLA soldiers were detained for hours by IA released after negotiations

drapr007 to me looks like our own psyops handle. While i dont trust what that handle says - but its good for psyops.

Also Shyamd - do u have inputs from chaiwallas or panwallas. GoI has refused that chinese soldiers were held. By all means I'd love to believe what ur saying.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 10 Oct 2021 00:32

btw for people still trying to tally Galwan Causalities for Chicom - 123. Yes in Tawang we detained a lot of Chinese soldier recently. few of them ate golgappas. All of that is true.
The chinese jumped the gun so as to preempt the news if the video came out from Indian side (and boy it is forcing our hand).

Larger picture is UP election - Farmer agitation, JK killings...some more attacks on the way + The Tawang teach a lesson was all part of the grand scheme. Tawang has backfired. Let's see what a deranged dragon can do.

nam · Post by **nam** » 10 Oct 2021 01:19

It is a good thing the PLA released images from the Galwan fight. This will prevent GoI from brushing things under the carpet in the name of "resolution".

It will also force IA to release it's own collection. PLA & CCP keeps forgetting their best ally in India is GoI and it's bureaucracy. In it's excitement to prove it's superiority, PLA is fulfilling our wish.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 10 Oct 2021 01:41

YashG wrote: drapr007 to me looks like our own psyops handle. While i dont trust what that handle says - but its good for psyops.

Also Shyamd - do u have inputs from chaiwallas or panwallas. GoI has refused that chinese soldiers were held. By all means I'd love to believe what ur saying.

Truth is always controlled or massaged or kept secret... In this case GOI wanted to keep it quiet so as not to escalate... keep in mind that we do the same too in their territory.

Please see my post in the afghan thread there are other moves afoot by GOI (CIT-J and X are alive) plus understand resources being deployed because of Covid vaccination.

ChanakyaM · Post by **ChanakyaM** » 10 Oct 2021 02:50

Prem Kumar wrote:Now that we've , the Chinese are back to their old tricks, with some new lessons learnt

1) Probing movements like the one above
2) Digging their heels in with more shelters for their troops
3) Overcoming their Air Force disadvantage by constructing new air-strips & hardened shelters
4) Reducing our Air Force advantage by inducting S-400s

We need to amp up our offensive game as well. Induct more Brahmos (especially the S-400 killer variety), induct SAAWs & penetrators to take out aircraft inside hardened shelters, Rudram series (SEAD), LCH, Helina & Akash induction. Must have an accelerated test+induction process. The next Galwan is around the corner - as soon as the Chinese believe that they have nullified our advantages.

Infra work is going great on our side. Weapons induction is good in patches.

withdrawin from thg Kailash range probably one of the dumbest thing to do. I asked the same question earlier and was told we achieved objective. It goes on to prove the cheenese never learn and will keep doing this again and again in different sectors.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 10 Oct 2021 04:13

shyamd wrote:PLA ask us not to release photos in talks yet they backstab.

Here's my view on "backstabbing and backstabbers".

First, why and when did the Indian establishment begin to trust the chicoms on their word?

Second, if Indians feel they were backstabbed by the chicoms, then they either had their backs to chinis or were hugging them. In either case, major mistake. Chanakya was very clear on the course of action when dealing with a neighbor.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 10 Oct 2021 04:19

So, here's another proof that the chinis got their asses whipped. When the commies release an official statement like this one, it is clear they were whooped.

The Chinese border guards routinely patrol the Chinese side of the Sino-Indian border, but were unreasonably blocked by the Indian side, and the Chinese officers and soldiers resolutely countered it.

Political affairs
10-09 21:13
China Daily News, October 9th: According to sources from the Chinese military, on September 28, the Chinese border guards carried out routine patrols in the Dongzhang area on the Chinese side of the China-India border. They were unreasonably blocked by the Indian side. The officers and soldiers resolutely countered and returned after completing the patrol mission.

The source said that the Dongzhang area is China's inherent territory, and it is entirely reasonable and legal for the Chinese border guards to organize patrols on their own territory. The Indian media's recent hype about Chinese soldiers being detained for "crossing the line" is false and inconsistent with the facts. In this incident, the Indian side deliberately provoked first, distorted and discredited, and seriously violated the bilateral agreement. The responsibility rests entirely with the Indian side. The Indian side should earnestly abide by bilateral agreements and agreements, strictly control and restrain front-line troops, and work with China to maintain peace and stability in the border area.

commie link: https://m.sohu.com/a/494175144_203783/?pvid=000115_3w_a

williams · Post by **williams** » 10 Oct 2021 05:04

anupmisra wrote:So, here's another proof that the chinis got their asses whipped. When the commies release an official statement like this one, it is clear they were whooped.

The Chinese border guards routinely patrol the Chinese side of the Sino-Indian border, but were unreasonably blocked by the Indian side, and the Chinese officers and soldiers resolutely countered it.

Political affairs
10-09 21:13
China Daily News, October 9th: According to sources from the Chinese military, on September 28, the Chinese border guards carried out routine patrols in the Dongzhang area on the Chinese side of the China-India border. They were unreasonably blocked by the Indian side. The officers and soldiers resolutely countered and returned after completing the patrol mission.

The source said that the Dongzhang area is China's inherent territory, and it is entirely reasonable and legal for the Chinese border guards to organize patrols on their own territory. The Indian media's recent hype about Chinese soldiers being detained for "crossing the line" is false and inconsistent with the facts. In this incident, the Indian side deliberately provoked first, distorted and discredited, and seriously violated the bilateral agreement. The responsibility rests entirely with the Indian side. The Indian side should earnestly abide by bilateral agreements and agreements, strictly control and restrain front-line troops, and work with China to maintain peace and stability in the border area.
commie link: https://m.sohu.com/a/494175144_203783/?pvid=000115_3w_a

However look at their assertiveness. They claim it is their territory. Our guys add the statement "because there is difference in perspective". When you say that, then you lose the pretext to act offensively if needed. They can be as offensive as they want. That should change.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 10 Oct 2021 05:55

BTW, this is campaign season (until November) - Same as 1962, and chinese provocation and claim were similar. Only difference, WE ARE READY!!, bring it ON!!!

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 10 Oct 2021 08:33

williams wrote:However look at their assertiveness. .....Our guys add the statement "because there is difference in perspective".

The difference between our establishment / forces and that of the pakis & Chinkis is that those two countries speak in their true national identities. Whereas here our people still prefer to speak in the language and manner of their former colonial masters.

When the gora man left our country, he left behind some of his brown snakes...who were allowed to continue in the establishment/forces and stamp the same dna for future generations also. That is the reason the people in our IAS and the higher echelons of our forces still talk like the 'good ol chaps'.

You want to hear what our true national identity sounds like? Read some of the statements of the RSS newspaper (I think it is called Saamna). You'll find that the statements sounds exactly like the statements of some of the paki / chinki newspapers. I think the need of the hour is to inject some of the RSS blood into the IAS and maybe even have a 'Republican Guards' or 'SS' version in our forces with RSS cadre.

That is when you'll see a change in how we talk and how we act. Till then, you'll continue to see & hear pacifism and all other assorted '-isms' and preferences for imported weapons.