Bharat Rakshak

Actually yes, religion is beneath me. Which is why I consider all attempts to make India a theocratic state on the lines of the Taliban a perversion against humanity and the hard-fought freedom we won. I consider all such people fascists, anti-national, unpatriotic and ultimately pro-pakistan. I support their right to state their views but I also claim the right to fight them indefinitely.

Quote:

The current system of law enforcement is a joke in India, caused by great greed, corruption, and stupidity. Escaping the jurisdiction of indian law is as simple as paying off a few officers. My point is, for the last 50+ years India has been under the rule of a so called secular government and what has that done for the country? People starve, politicians steal, and a great percentage of the population are too uneducated to do a damn thing about it. I don't think changing a few laws are going to change this situation, something much more drastic needs to happen.

I see no relation between a secular government and crimes against women. On the contrary I see a strong correlation between your "dharmic ideals" and the inhuman practice of Sati, the denial of women the right to education, the treatment of widows, child marraiges and sundry other evils in Indian society.

Yes, we haven't progressed as much as one would like in the last 50 years. Sure the congress and its misguided ideology may have a lot to blame .. although one shouldn't forget the role PSUs played in the early years, building the engineering infrastructure of the country - their use has now come to an end, but that's a different matter.

If you continue to insist that some magic "dharmic ideals" is better than secularism, kindly list which specific ideal you want to enforce. Also, please state those ideals (such as sati-glorification) that you will repeal.

Give India a chance, defeat the fascists !!

(Note that I say "defeat" and not "destroy", because unlike the pro-Hitler fascists I believe in the right to free speech)

Ponniyin Selvan:

Not always .. India is the land of the KamaSutra. Not to speak of Khajuraho.

Kautilya:

This is a statement which only highlights your ignorance about Indian history. The current "sexual culture" in India is a ..............................
. And, even that only for people who were on the path of spirituality, for others the field was wide open.

Yes.That is true.Ancient India was different from medieval India.People sought god in the world and inside as well.It was a kaleideoscope with all types of people and all kinds of systems.In those days too women went about wearing little , perhaps much less than urban women of today.And I doubt our wise sages would have justified attacks on women on the basis that they provoked them with their way of dressing , as today's moral police do.The moral police of today gets its inspiration and interpretation of Hindusim from Mahatma Gandhi , a man who preached a murderous morality and belived that woman existed to tempt man , and even carried out experiments to prove that he could resist their advances even under great provocation..RSS is greatly inspired by this Mahatma Gandhi and wishes to establish a brahmin state , with brahminical mores for one and all . just like what the Mahatma Wanted.It is necessary to propogate a more liberal type of Hindusim as expounded by Ram Mohun Roy and Swami Vivekananda who worked for loosening the morals of the society as they caused great harm to the people especially the weaker sections.

And, even that only for people who were on the path of spirituality, for others the field was wide open.

Yes this is a very important statement.It is a mistake to presume that all that ancient Indians did was to seek god.There were all types of people , all kinds of sciences and all kinds of philosophies...the spiritual science was considered the crowning piece as it resulted in the highest achievement...the greatest bliss and highest knowledge..It would be foolhardy to conclude that there was no other knowledge or no other type of joy that people sought...The Russian Space program and American nuclear programs are the crowning glories of their industrial societies...and it would be foolhardy to conclude that they had no other industries or types of industries except the above.

Aditi Parikh:

Look at the Priyadarshini Mattoo case in Delhi. In what way are similar Pakistani victims worse-off?

In Pakistan you wouldnt be able to say such a thing and get away with it.Here you can abuse your parent religion to your heart's content and abuse your motherland and equate it to a barbaric nation like paksitan and get away with it and even be hailed a liberal.

May be somebody should give her a purdah to wear for one week and then she will know a thing or two about the advantages of living in India.And why we are different from Pakistan.

Even the caste system in its most decayed and decreipt form is any day better than the Pakistani system of Purdah and separation of women and men and holding women responsible for not tempting men.It(modern caste system) still acknowledges certain basic human rights which if used properly and sensitively can serve as a starting point to reform the society and eventually free it from its influence.

All that requires hard work and understanding.If you go to the villages and abuse hinduism and manu-smriti , more likely you won't comeback alive.There is enough in hinduism to guarantee a high status for women and in fact even a superior status if only u cared to look , interpret and propogate.And remove your fixation with Manusmriti.Urban Indian males and females who bash Manu are more fixated with him than the
rural folk.

We must realise that neither is it possible to ask the massses to give up hinduism or caste which is a group or clan with identity.There is nothing in Manusmriti that calls for the exploitation or murder of lower castes.Infact it prescribes higher punishments to higher castes and right to self defence to lower castes.

We must tell the people that their treatment of women and lower castes are not in keeping with their religious traditions and inform them that they are bad habits they picked along the way.We must try to break the walls from inside by voluntary participation and not by absuing them or their cherished traditiosn from outside.Which will only harden their attitudes.

Most importantly it is necessary to free people's mind from the influence of Gandhi and his rigid asceticism and interpretion of hinduism.Till 1943 he did not accept inter dining or inter marraige betwen castes.We must try to propagate liberal traditions of Hinduism.He was even aginst family planning and condoms and wanted people to rely on abstinence.According to him condoms will encourage license for sexual ativity between husband and wife !!! He is completely against women and their development.RSS is inspired by this clown to a great deal and all its misguided policies are the result of this.

This is classic.

You're in the wrong country Amit16. The Taliban are missing you.

Just proves that fanatics of all religions speak the same language.

Its has been under the judges, who are neighter secular nor communal, but just defunct. Same was the stoy in west; the executive is governed by numerious court judgements, but the courts in US etc were better and so the executive was better than that in India.

so your theory that secular leader has ruined India is not true.

Changing law making procedure is MORE than sufficient.

What do you recommend?

-Rahul Mehta

Please Sir, I am sick and tired of all Indian societal evils being blamed on religion. Please learn to separate the two. If you want to change a peoples minds you do not tell them that the very core ideal of religion they hold is stupid and idiotic, and source of all their problems. This is what britishers did, and this is what commies have done in all the countries they went to and totally destroyed the moorings of the society. And, by the way this is what VHP tries to do with Muslims. The simple and most effective way of changing people is to show them that what they are doing is wrong, and the ideals their ancestors/religion believed in and expounded did not support this. They will be more receptive to your ideas, and this will still allow them retain their cultural moorings, which I daresy a lot of our intellectuals have lost in order to appear more "intellectual" and "secular". An attack on a peoples identity will only get you VHP or Taliban.

P.S.Learn from Swami Vivekanada, on how to do this.
P.P.S. Westreners justified slavery through bible for a long time, would you then call slavery a religious evil or societal?

When Osama Bin Laden crashes four planes into buildings and kills thousands of human beings we are told that it is not true Islam.Taliban is also not true Islam but a " Radical Interpretation of Islam ".When terrorists kill Pandits in Kashmir that is also not true Islam.

But when Upper caste massacres lower aste in gross violation of manusmriti ,, manu himself is blamed for it and is accused of advocating such massacres !

Ponder over the virtues of the world !!!

And they wonder why the BJP is so successful !

Secularism is nothing but a cover for Islamic Imperialism.

And, by the way this is what VHP tries to do with Muslims.

There is nothing wrong if VHP tells such things(the core of your religion is stupid) to Muslims.They are only telling the truth. The secularists take a biased stand and then force a lot of people to support the VHP.If the choice is between a decreipt hinduism with all evils and Islam , I would anyday support teh former as it is always possible to reform hindu society by playing one liberal chapter agaisnt another backward one in the smritis.No such option in Islam.Koran contains the words of God and it cannot be changed forever.

My response was in reply to people who claimed that justice is easily available for crimes against women in India compared to those in Pakistan. I merely pointed out that it wasn't so - in India too, despite living in a free and democratic society where it is easy for a woman to take a crime to court, it is very difficult for her to obtain justice. My examples simply point to the fact that while such crimes against women have been challenged in court, the courts have let off the criminals easily and eventually justice has been denied to seekers. Just the fact that you can report a crime is not enough - eventually people want justice be done to them and in crimes against women especially, this often times doesn't happen.

The rest of your post is basically a tirade against me based on false assumptions. I have nowhere mentioned religion in my post and I don't know from where you got the idea that I am abusing Hinduism or India. Nor have I claimed anywhere that I wish to be known by labels such as liberal or conservative or moderate.

Why this strong defence of Manu Smriti when nobody has even alluded to it? Please read the topic carefully - nobody is discussing the caste system or manusmriti in here. Please stop imagining that I have in any way through my post attempted to attack any religion or its traditions - where did this come from?

Your opinion of Gandhiji is your own and its such a bunch of ignorance and trash that I am not going to waste my time countering it. Please remember this thread is for discussing women's status in society and not a critique of Mahatma Gandhi or the RSS.

That si because here the burden of proof lies on the victim instead on the accused as in the rest of the world.Its true of all crimes.Arun Jaitley himself said if you have committed a heinous crime in India 96.5 % chance exists you will get away.Murderer will be tried only when the ghost of the victim comes and points him out.Its common for all and not just for women.In case of women who are raped she has to prove that she was raped while the prepatrator cooly stands on the cage smiling away.Its becasue we have a principle that
a even if 100 criminals get away , its all right , no innocent must be hanged.In ROTW ist teh other way round.Let 100 innocents be hanged , but not a single criminal gets away.

I am sorry if I misunderstood you , but there are a lot of India bashers here and I thought you were one of them.

Since usually discussing status of Indian women implies attack on Hindu Scriptures while others are spared such a critique I defended manusmriti.Thats all.Also any attack on the evils of Hindu society is an indirect attack on manusmriti while others scriptures get away lightly.

Gandhi is very relevant.You can't hope to improve women's situation when a very retrograde interpretation of scriptures exists.And an organisation like the RSS with a political wing which has seized power , takes such an interpretatioon seriously and goes about implementing it.All I have said about Gandhi is true and its not false.He did hold such notions.He did not even want industries and wanted a purely agricultural economy.The RSS also believes in it , refer to Sudershan's speech at the IIT yesterday.They want an agricultuaral economy.The fertilizers will be cow dung and cow's urine.Nothng else will be permitted.And all wear Khadi and spin it yourself.

Whereas Swami Vivekananda when he visited Japan and saw the industries there wanted the same in India and asked Jamshedji Tata to start steel industries in India which he complied.He also had a better role for women in Indian Society.

WOMEN CAN GANG RAPED IN DELHI BUSES!!!!

Said 30-year-old Chitra Saha: "People here are born spectators. They won't do anything unless the victim is someone close to them."



Sure, this would no happen in south india! unless its all planned and protected. never in public.

"The fear of losing one's life is so much that no one tries to help. Everybody wants to see himself safe," said Ramesh Chandra, a regular bus traveller

Psychologist Vandana Ghura said: "Life here has become very mechanical. People don't have time to get involved in things that don't affect them directly. This is unfortunate and shows the degradation of our society.



"I have suffered a lot in buses. I stopped reacting to all the harassment because people generally turn against the victim rather than the assailant," said Saha.

"Co-passengers stare at girls with dirty smiles. 'Look, she has been molested' is the attitude. Others remain silent. Nobody comes to help. Not even police."


WONDER WHY THE PSHYCOLOGIST WOULD NOT THINK THAT THE VICTIM'S BOY FRIEND COULD BRING IN A GANG TO BEAT UP THE CULPRITS. PERHAPS, PEOPLE ARE TOO BUSY EVEN TO LOVE.

web page "Police cannot do anything unless people help us. Public awareness is needed -- be it robbery or harassment of women."

In India, it is as easy for women to get justice as easy it is for men. The courts are slow for BOTH, men as well as women. Ther person was saying that courts in Pak disfavor women compared to men.

The second MOST important factor behind high level of crime was laziness of courts (first factor being lack of regular incomes for most women). It is upto the courts (=judges) to resolve the cases promptly/fairly. They dont and dont know anyway to fix these judges. What solution do you propose?

The statement is COMPLETELY wrong. I was in Rutgers University in US long time back, and some hoodlooms got into University bus; they had a brawl with the driver and they started beating the driver. Every passanger, most were young able bodied students, just sat and was a spectators. The hoodlooms then ran away. But within 30 minustes, cops came, and students co-operated. By the next day the policemen had arrested the hoodlooms.

So my point is, in MOST country, the citizens DO NOT react DIRECTLY to crimes. And ONLY A FOOLISH will say that he is mere "spectator". And in countries where policmen/courts are fast/fair, the citizens co-operate with policemen/courts who imprison the criminal. The onsu of direct action ALWAYS lies on policemen/courts. The citizens pay them taxes, and are thus participant in the process of subdueing the criminal.

In India the citizens DO NOT co-operate with policemen/courts, and fault lies on corrupt/callouse policemen/judges NOT in the citizens.

Wait for just another 10-20 years. What happens in Bihar today will happen in rest of the India within 10-20 years.

Another mindless Indian-basher. In EVERY country, people are afraid of loosing their life/limb first. In India, the fear is more because of lack of insurance, general poverty and low level of martial trainning, but in US too people seldom intervene DIRECTLY to help a victim who is being mugged. It is always policemen/courts who do the direct action.

100% balooney, but then what else can you expect from a psychologist? How is mechanicalness of the liufe related to violence against women? Life is far more mechanical in US/UK and people have much less time for others. Yet crimes against women are far fewer in US/UK. Psychologist just draw some conclusions and state without ever checking it with other countries. There professional common-men bashers should be ignored as far as possible.

There some sick people, but majority of them identify themselves with the victim. No one ever sides with the criminal. As I said, this psychologist is professional common-men-basher and is so busy bashing common men that he has no time to analyse REAL factors becuase of which violence against women is high in India (i.e. lack of regular income, lack of small unit houses, pathetically slkow/corrupt judges and policemen etc)

Bad idea. I would expect the girl to hire the hoodlooms and get the agressor beaten. It is a VERY bad idea for a woman to depend on husband, father, brother or boyfriend or any man for direct vigilante action.

The solution is that every woman MUST take trainning in weapon use, and keep weapons with her. If not a gun, pulling out a 12-inch knife and showing it to victim will help. Trust me, even if the victim kills the agressor, EVERYONE in bus will side with the victim and NOT with the agressor. Now policemen/judges have their own way of dealing with such cases, and I cant predict how they will handle it, except that they are sure to ask fro bribes.

Now I know some peace-mined Gandhians would not like my idea of that potential victims should arm themselves. But thats the ONLY practical short term solution. In a city with defunct/corrupt policemen/courts, you better buy weapons or prepare yourself to be another victim. No bystander can help you in city fulkl of corrupt policemen/judges. Thats the real world, take it or leave it.

The long term solution to violence against women problem is to provide incomex to women and fix the policemen/courts rather than bash the common men at the drop of the hat.

Please read the statement twice. It is nothing but a typical common-man bashing statement. It means

1. public is NOT aware;

2. As such policemen/courts are all very eager to help the victims and imprison the aggresoors;

3. They cant as this damn damn common men (public) are stupid/ignorant/lazy fools

4. And so it is common men's fault that aggressors cant be imprisoned

Utter nonsense. Public is ALEADY aware. The policemen/courts are corrupt and it is the MAIN reason common men do not co-operate with them.

It is really sickening to see that so many many people have becomke full time common-men (aka "public") bashers.

-Rahul Mehta

Then., I think in North India buses there are more sick people then normal. In Chandigarh I have seen some sane conductors (along with driver) and other people beating up guys who are seen molesting a girl in a bus. This sort of obnoxious behaviour goes out of control when bus is jam packed with college going youngsters.

In small cities all over Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan and North UP people are still are sane and helpful. It is only in big cities where people are de-sensitized.

Sexual repression is no excuse for groping, teasing or pinching in jam packed places.

Women wearing revealing clothes is no excuse for molestation.

Putting in context

There a billion people in India compared 300 million in the US. If you look at harassment, abuse and rape demographically you are not going to find a big skew in the normal curve. In fact, even if you compared to China you are not going to find a skewed curve.

That is not to say their is no problem. India has a powerful medium through TV, Bollywood, Ads in Post Office etc. Like the Ad Council in the US, India needs a Ad Council that can put out public service messages on subjects and issues that erupt without warning. These messages must highlight the penalties. Minimum prison time etc.

That would be good start. Arresting and jaling thugs and rapists is probably even better.

Can you give us the DRAFT of the New Constitution and Laws you have in mind?

The way administration has been working ALL over the world for past 1000s of years is that there is an agency which creates the laws, in a formal written way or some informal way. And there are 1000s of officers under some exective head who "implement" the laws. What is implementation? Punishing those who dont follow the laws.

So if you want change in existing setup, can you please specify the new laws etc?

The reality is known WITHOUT the ad-campaigns, that judges in India seldom punish the aggressors. So if REALITY (i.e. actual conviction rate) is given out to public, and told how easily judges acquit the aggressors, the crimes will ONLY increase.

As I said, ALL roads go out of Rome i.e. all solutions to problems point to the Courtrooms. (3) is sufficient, (1) and (2) are OK,I have no problem with them, but are NOT important. When truckloads of aggressors, of any crimes, are thrown into prisons, the crime will decrease. Information about imprisonment will spread AUTOMATICALLY. But then how do you get judges issue the necessary prison senetences without empowering them to convict innocents? Thats the ONLY key question, we should try to answer. Any answers?

You can take horse to water, cant make him drink. The judges are hell bent on NOT imprisoning the criminals no matter how tall the mountain the evidences is. This is true for all types of crimes, be finacial, be corruption-cases, be violent crimes against women or violent crimes against men (by men).

Discussing judges will be changing the topic, so I stop here. But unless we find better judges, I dont think aggressors will land in prison, and so crimes may keep rising.

-Rahul Mehta

Jarugn, your idea of Ad Council is well-taken. However, anyone who has seen the old-time Doordarshan will agree that the whole Doordarshan was one big stuffy Ad Council, making lame and boring public service messages on birth control, etc.

Fact is, in India, as else where, Government just ends up ruining a good idea, a good initiative. Perhaps more so in India then in the West.

It is up to private media moguls to be good/better role models. How many times have you seen your macho Bollywood hero go to a Madhya Pradesh tribal village or a Delhi jhuggi basti??

And what to speak of the stupidity of India's much-vaunted "beauty queens." More like booty queens, I would say. Heck, the last one even messed up on the question of the most inspiring LIVING person, saying it was mother teresa, and on another count, saying india had a population of 2 billion! Imagine these people going to booty peagents and saying how they really wanna work for India's poor kids, or poor women, etc. Once they win the crown and accolades on their skin-deep beauty, they decide to change course and go into bollywood, where again, they are not the good role models they are expected to be. They hob-knob with the mafia, they don't pay taxes, what to speak of giving to worthy charities.

And it is these people that the urban class clamors to see. Unless something in this picture changes, I don't expect to see a heroine in a picture who goes out and fights her enemies instead of the usual 'bachao' scenes.

Womb Raiders

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=22688721