Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

[brar_w]

invade a country larger than France. Iraq was about 80% the size and it took months of logistical preparation, before an invasion.

Apples and oranges as well. In the invasion of Iraq, the coalition forces were thousands of miles from their home so had to account for that logistically. There is little in recent example where a country has assembled such a large force as this and invaded a neighbor both through its border and that of another country also neighboring it.

[VinodTK]

Looks like Russia is using lot of T72 tanks and they are not holding up well against the anti tank weapons (basing my observation, on the various Tube postings). Why aren't the Russians using newer MBT's. Looking at the videos makes you think you are watching Iraqi tanks against western weapons.

- Based on my unscientific observations all T72's should be replaced with Arjun M1 or M2.
- Hope the powers be are seeing the capability of the T72 tanks and change their love for the 'Txx" series tanks
- If some one says the armor on Arjun is same as the 'T" series tanks, then shame on us for giving such bad requirements

[Igorr]

Igor, With all due respect to the Russian army, no army since WW2 has fought a war in Europe with this large a force. Not has any army tried to
invade a country larger than France. Iraq was about 80% the size and it took months of logistical preparation, before an invasion.

Right. So the problem is no 'pure logistics' but the extremally large battlefield. BTW the Americans 3 months have beaten Iraq with the tomahawks before starting ground operation.

Look how the Russian cleaning tactics work near Kiev: here

[Deans]

Igor, With all due respect to the Russian army, no army since WW2 has fought a war in Europe with this large a force. Not has any army tried to
invade a country larger than France. Iraq was about 80% the size and it took months of logistical preparation, before an invasion.

Right. So the problem is no 'pure logistics' but the extremally large battlefield. BTW the Americans 3 months have beaten Iraq with the tomahawks before starting ground operation.

Look how the Russian cleaning tactics work near Kiev: here

Yes. Not just distances, but I would assume at this time of year, melting snow makes off road movement difficult for heavy vehicles.
Also, every bit of space behind the front is mapped out by NATO satellites and AWACS.

[ks_sachin]

All full of drama and theatrics and no thinking..but a point to note .. is he fully in control ?.. does his militias listen to him or continue to use civilians as shield ?

Ukrainian Telegram channels write that the Ukrainian General Staff insists on using a human shield, as it sees no other way to hide from Russian precision weapons. All this, of course, will continue in the same spirit. Regarding logistics: Vershinin's opinion is just the opinion of one person who claims to be an expert, although I have not heard about him before. The facts are that Russia did an excellent job with the logistics in Syria. Why it should be too difficult in Ukraine, is not clear for me.

Igor you should read the article in the previous post. Syria is a small op compared to what is being undertaken in Ukraine. An airforce detachment and a few thousand troops supporting Assad’s troops is nothing like a full scale invasion by a combined arms Army.

Plus here is a thought. An expedition like Syria may have forced the Russian general staff to look at logistics bespoke for that op. For all intents and purposes Russia did not expect this quagmire in Ukraine. Use of human shields and urban combat by Ukrainian forces should have factored into planning no?

[Deans]

Looks like Russia is using lot of T72 tanks and they are not holding up well against the anti tank weapons (basing my observation, on the various Tube postings). Why aren't the Russians using newer MBT's. Looking at the videos makes you think you are watching Iraqi tanks against western weapons.

- Based on my unscientific observations all T72's should be replaced with Arjun M1 or M2.
- Hope the powers be are seeing the capability of the T72 tanks and change their love for the 'Txx" series tanks
- If some one says the armor on Arjun is same as the 'T" series tanks, then shame on us for giving such bad requirements

A friend in Russia, ex Army officer, told me right at the outset that he did not see any T-90 regiment deployed. Even the elite 1st Guards Tank army has used T-72s in its lead units. (it has T-72s, 80 & 90 tanks). Its possible that the Russians are willing to lose T-72s (they have 5000 odd stored away) in the initial battles which will also deplete Ukrainian forces and then throw in T-90 regiments.

Best estimate is that the Russians have lost about 240 tanks (Ukraine claims 450+). That's about 10% of the invasion force, but 2.5% of total tank
strength and almost all losses are T-72. Half the Russian losses are captured tanks (broken down or out of fuel), which might be recovered by advancing Russians. Ukraine has admitted to 60+ tank losses. It has the same proportion of abandoned /captured tanks. An advancing side recovers more vehicles than a retreating side.

[ks_sachin]

Looks like Russia is using lot of T72 tanks and they are not holding up well against the anti tank weapons (basing my observation, on the various Tube postings). Why aren't the Russians using newer MBT's. Looking at the videos makes you think you are watching Iraqi tanks against western weapons.

- Based on my unscientific observations all T72's should be replaced with Arjun M1 or M2.
- Hope the powers be are seeing the capability of the T72 tanks and change their love for the 'Txx" series tanks
- If some one says the armor on Arjun is same as the 'T" series tanks, then shame on us for giving such bad requirements

A friend in Russia, ex Army officer, told me right at the outset that he did not see any T-90 regiment deployed. Even the elite 1st Guards Tank army has used T-72s in its lead units. (it has T-72s, 80 & 90 tanks). Its possible that the Russians are willing to lose T-72s (they have 5000 odd stored away) in the initial battles which will also deplete Ukrainian forces and then throw in T-90 regiments.
Best estimate is that the Russians have lost about 240 tanks (Ukraine claims 450+). That's about 10% of the invasion force, but 2.5% of total tank
strength and almost all losses are T-72. Half the Russian losses are captured tanks (broken down or out of fuel), which might be recovered by advancing Russians.

Deans if what you say is true then that is a terrible indictment of RU value on its soldiers lives!!!

[Deans]

A friend in Russia, ex Army officer, told me right at the outset that he did not see any T-90 regiment deployed. Even the elite 1st Guards Tank army has used T-72s in its lead units. (it has T-72s, 80 & 90 tanks). Its possible that the Russians are willing to lose T-72s (they have 5000 odd stored away) in the initial battles which will also deplete Ukrainian forces and then throw in T-90 regiments.
Best estimate is that the Russians have lost about 240 tanks (Ukraine claims 450+). That's about 10% of the invasion force, but 2.5% of total tank
strength and almost all losses are T-72. Half the Russian losses are captured tanks (broken down or out of fuel), which might be recovered by advancing Russians.

Deans if what you say is true then that is a terrible indictment of RU value on its soldiers lives!!!

They have never cared much for soldiers lives. The average Russian soldier understands that he will be sacrificed if the situation demands it.
That said, a high proportion of tanks have been abandoned/ captured, but without the crew, who fled. That's not something I would expect to happen in a IA tank regiment.

[GShankar]

That said, a high proportion of tanks have been abandoned/ captured, but without the crew, who fled. That's not something I would expect to happen in a IA tank regiment.

Has this happened before in any previous operations by russia?

[Deans]

Aircraft losses in Combat are 15 for Russia and 11 for Ukraine. Russia has also lost 34 helicopters.
All losses on the ground are not known, but Ukraine is likely to have lost more, since its their bases that are under attack.
Russian air force has also flown several times more sorties than Ukraine's.

[Deans]

That said, a high proportion of tanks have been abandoned/ captured, but without the crew, who fled. That's not something I would expect to happen in a IA tank regiment.

Has this happened before in any previous operations by russia?

Happened a lot in 1941. There were battles in which a significant no of tanks were abandoned BEFORE coming into contact with the enemy.
In battle of Brody in 1941, the Red army, which started with a 5:1 advantage over the Germans, had more tanks being abandoned than lost in combat. In the later stages of the war, abandoned tanks could be recovered by the advancing Red army. They could not easily be used by the Germany, since Soviet tanks ran on diesel, while German tanks ran on petrol.

In Afghanistan, a lot of Armored vehicles were abandoned during ambushes.

[Igorr]

Igor you should read the article in the previous post. Syria is a small op compared to what is being undertaken in Ukraine. An airforce detachment and a few thousand troops supporting Assad’s troops is nothing like a full scale invasion by a combined arms Army.

Plus here is a thought. An expedition like Syria may have forced the Russian general staff to look at logistics bespoke for that op. For all intents and purposes Russia did not expect this quagmire in Ukraine. Use of human shields and urban combat by Ukrainian forces should have factored into planning no?

So if in remote Syria, having a long logistical arm, Russia coped, then nearby in Ukraine a short logical arm greatly facilitates the supply tasks. In addition, many things can be found locally due to the compatibility of army technologies. A lot of tanks, javelins and RPGs were captured and handed over to the armies of the DPR and LPR. As for the 'human shield': the Russians changed the tactics of the first days, when they spared the personnel of the Ukrainian army and received an order from Putin to spare, first of all, the lives of their own soldiers. Therefore, tactics are adapted to the changing situation and continue to adapt. This is not just one pattern, the generals work in headquarters to bring the actions of the troops in line with the situation. Drones and aircraft are bombing brutally, but they do it only at night, when civilians are hiding in basements.

[GShankar]

Thanks!!

In short - are tanks abandoned because the soldiers have to move forward and for various reasons the tanks can't be taken along in the direction the soldiers are moving?

[Pratyush]

They have never cared much for soldiers lives. The average Russian soldier understands that he will be sacrificed if the situation demands it.
That said, a high proportion of tanks have been abandoned/ captured, but without the crew, who fled. That's not something I would expect to happen in a IA tank regiment.

Or this could be because of the tanks themselves being unfit for combat due to poor maintenance and lack of spare parts. They are breaking down and the crew in such circumstance leaves the tank and relocates to a more defendable position. Knowing that a broken down tank will be ATGM and RPG magnet.

[ks_sachin]

Igor you should read the article in the previous post. Syria is a small op compared to what is being undertaken in Ukraine. An airforce detachment and a few thousand troops supporting Assad’s troops is nothing like a full scale invasion by a combined arms Army.

Plus here is a thought. An expedition like Syria may have forced the Russian general staff to look at logistics bespoke for that op. For all intents and purposes Russia did not expect this quagmire in Ukraine. Use of human shields and urban combat by Ukrainian forces should have factored into planning no?

So if in remote Syria, having a long logistical arm, Russia coped, then nearby in Ukraine a short logical arm greatly facilitates the supply tasks. In addition, many things can be found locally due to the compatibility of army technologies. A lot of tanks, javelins and RPGs were captured and handed over to the armies of the DPR and LPR. As for the 'human shield': the Russians changed the tactics of the first days, when they spared the personnel of the Ukrainian army and received an order from Putin to spare, first of all, the lives of their own soldiers. Therefore, tactics are adapted to the changing situation and continue to adapt. This is not just one pattern, the generals work in headquarters to bring the actions of the troops in line with the situation. Drones and aircraft are bombing brutally, but they do it only at night, when civilians are hiding in basements.

Igorr I would once again invite you to read that article to which a link was posted by Deans.
Russia has a very unique environment which lead to a particular way logistics are managed. This, from my reading, would work fantastically well in a defensive posture but not so well in offensive ops beyond the border.
Syria was an example when the Russia had to think outside the box and perhaps came up with innovative solutions because they were not constrained by history in its many shapes and form.

[Hari Nair]

Interesting usage of unguided rockets by Russian gunships. Not sure how effective/accurate this is.

The attack helicopters are launching their rockets in a shallow pull-up to maximise the weapon range. Rockets are 'area' weapons used against soft skinned targets and personnel and can be quite devastating when used with flechette warheads. The flechettes can cover quite a bit of area and do some serious damage. Some rockets even have a 'wall-in-space' function wherein at the given range the rockets auto-disperses these warheads over the designated area.

Point to note: The Ka-52s with its contra-rotating rotors can be clearly heard from a very far distance (very prominent 'rotor slap'), as compared to the Mi-28s. That audio signature will surely cue any MANPADS crew to the direction of approach, earlier than that for a conventional layout helicopter.

[kit]

i suppose they could use cluster bombs and thermobaric rockets this way.. quite effective even if dispersed ?

[ks_sachin]

i suppose they could use cluster bombs and thermobaric rockets this way.. quite effective even if dispersed ?

Depends on target.

[Cyrano]

Russia is perhaps wary of a NATO counteroffensive in some weeks/months and doesnt want to expend its frontline assets like T90s and modern fighters. Losing and using a lot of older equipment is preferable to the as things stand.

[ks_sachin]

Russia is perhaps wary of a NATO counteroffensive in some weeks/months and doesnt want to expend its frontline assets like T90s and modern fighters. Losing and using a lot of older equipment is preferable to the as things stand.

Actually I read somewhere that it is a tactic to use older equipment to get the enemy to expend its assets. Don’t know what is true. But the disregard for own troops is callous.
Calls into question the quality of troops and training also?

[Cyrano]

I'm not sure its deliberate disregard for own troops. Notice that in all the videos from Ukr side, there are very few of captured or injured Russian soldiers, there are no mass surrenders of RA deserters. If there were in big numbers, Ukr side has every reason to play up those visuals. Absence of proof... and all that, we simply don't know real RA and UkrA troop losses. One could be wrong extrapolating WW2 Stalin attitude to present day RA attitude.

[Deans]

Or this could be because of the tanks themselves being unfit for combat due to poor maintenance and lack of spare parts. They are breaking down and the crew in such circumstance leaves the tank and relocates to a more defendable position. Knowing that a broken down tank will be ATGM and RPG magnet.

One problem in Russia is the very high reliance on conscripts. They often do not have the technical skills or experience to maintain tanks, especially under battlefield conditions and if the tank is not in regular use. Soviet (and probably Russian) doctrine has not emphasized on recovering tanks, because there have always been more tanks available than experienced crews. Armored recovery vehicles will be used to pull tanks out of places they have got stuck in, so that an advance can be resumed, rather than tow a damaged tank a long distance back to a repair workshop.

[Deans]

I'm not sure its deliberate disregard for own troops. Notice that in all the videos from Ukr side, there are very few of captured or injured Russian soldiers, there are no mass surrenders of RA deserters. If there were in big numbers, Ukr side has every reason to play up those visuals. Absence of proof... and all that, we simply don't know real RA and UkrA troop losses. One could be wrong extrapolating WW2 Stalin attitude to present day RA attitude.

Ukraine's official figure is 200 Russian POW. They had released the names of 100 as of last week (they are obliged to do so under the Geneva convention). That's a very small number relative to the number of Russian soldiers they claim are dead.
About disregard for own troops, I think the difference with Russia (USSR) was that senor officers are more willing to sacrifice a unit, if its for the greater good of the war, or order troops not to surrender when they are in a hopeless position.

[Anoop]

What were the pre-war Russian exercises in Belarus and in Russia near the Ukraine border, focused on? Reports on this in the Sep 2021 to Feb 2022 are sketchy, apart from mentioning movement of EW, tanks, bridging equipment and S400 to theater. In light of Russian communication and coordination issues, it would be interesting to see what they prepared for.

The old Soviet doctrine called for reinforcing successful thrusts while letting stalled advances fend for themselves. If there is lack of strategic clarity and/or communication issues with rear echelons, then logistic problems will get compounded i.e. which axis to reinforce at the expense of which?

[Deans]

One point to consider (has implications for India too) is that the Russian forces in Ukraine come from 3 military districts (or commands).

Southern Military district - Has the 8th, 58th and 49th Armies (my earlier post on ORBAT mistakenly listed 49th army as 20th).
These armies were deployed in the Crimea and in the Donbass.
These are Russia's best forces. They were in Combat in Chechnya & Georgia and were rotated during the Donbass fighting in 2014-5 and later.

The Armies of the Western Military district and one army from the Central Military district are responsible for the advances towards Kiev and Kharkov/ Sumy. The 41st Army from the Central military district was from Siberia, as its not considered of the same standard as the Southern or Western military district. This took a high proportion of casualties and lost 2 Major generals.

[ks_sachin]

W
-- In light of Russian communication and coordination issues, it would be interesting to see what they prepared for.

The old Soviet doctrine called for reinforcing successful thrusts while letting stalled advances fend for themselves.

My point is that their current logistics organisation and infra may not necessarily lend itself to sustained operations outside of geographical boundaries.

[Anoop]

My point is that their current logistics organisation and infra may not necessarily lend itself to sustained operations outside of geographical boundaries.

This is not a new problem. The last major war they fought in Afghanistan also had only around 120,000 personnel at peak strength- and they had a land border then too.

[ks_sachin]

My point is that their current logistics organisation and infra may not necessarily lend itself to sustained operations outside of geographical boundaries.

This is not a new problem. The last major war they fought in Afghanistan also had only around 120,000 personnel at peak strength- and they had a land border then too.

So we agree then. They are currently sucking at this..

I wonder how the IA will do with trucks of 7.62X51, 5.56X45, 7.62X39 etc floating around!!!

[ks_sachin]

About disregard for own troops, I think the difference with Russia (USSR) was that senor officers are more willing to sacrifice a unit, if its for the greater good of the war, or order troops not to surrender when they are in a hopeless position.

I was more thinking in terms of how the current conflict has played out and the use of older T72s. Why?

[Deans]

About disregard for own troops, I think the difference with Russia (USSR) was that senor officers are more willing to sacrifice a unit, if its for the greater good of the war, or order troops not to surrender when they are in a hopeless position.

I was more thinking in terms of how the current conflict has played out and the use of older T72s. Why?

On tank losses, of the 263 Russian tanks lost (open source info), 71 were built in the Soviet era (over 30 years old).
Only 73 Tanks lost were T-80, the remaining 190 were T-72.

Of the 248 infantry fighting vehicles lost, 163 were Soviet era. They even include 28 BMP-1 which was obsolete and discontinued in India,
Only 31 losses were the newer BMP-3.

[ks_sachin]

I was more thinking in terms of how the current conflict has played out and the use of older T72s. Why?

On tank losses, of the 263 Russian tanks lost (open source info), 71 were built in the Soviet era (over 30 years old).
Only 73 Tanks lost were T-80, the remaining 190 were T-72.

Of the 248 infantry fighting vehicles lost, 163 were Soviet era. They even include 28 BMP-1 which was obsolete and discontinued in India,
Only 31 losses were the newer BMP-3.

But why???
Why risk your men with inferior equipment?

[ShivS]

It may be useful to evaluate this conflict in two stages.

In the first stage that lasted for a week to 10 days, the Russian war machine believed it needed to implement a subdued level of force and action combined with elite units that were sent into Kyiv to remove the head of the government machinery.

I am unsure of the reason behind this misplaced confidence but it failed at many levels and the Russian army found itself enmeshed in a full fledged war. Ukrainian tactics were superb - maintain national and military coherence, don’t engage the spearheads in open combat, focus on ambushes and the logistic tail. Not losing while inflicting significant casualties was a significant achievement.

When this lightning war moved failed the Russians are now moving towards a conventional conflict that will mean degrading civilian infra, classic envelopments and reducing strongpoints including cities. This phase has just begun.

In the first phase small combat teams with significant firepower and very effective intelligence including target and opportunity spotting have been very effective.

Let’s see what ha-pens now.

[Pratyush]

Because post 91 Russians haven't had the ability to replace older inferior equipment with what they would like to replace it with.

Second they are fighting with the holdings of the specific formations that are in the fight.

Plan's were to build 2300 Armata by now. But we know that Russia has lacked the resources to build those tanks.

The T90 is just an improvement over the T72. The basic design issues with the tanks has not been addressed. Only that the armour has been upgraded with composite armour.

In other words, they haven't had any choice in the matter.

[ks_sachin]

All in all a superb display by the Russians.
Intelligence, logistics, equipment!!!

[John]

On tank losses, of the 263 Russian tanks lost (open source info), 71 were built in the Soviet era (over 30 years old).
Only 73 Tanks lost were T-80, the remaining 190 were T-72.

So far documented

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... t.html?m=1

16 T-90A, 62 T-72 Obr. 2016 which are newer than T-90s, 74 T-80s, 31 T-72 B obr 1989 and B3, 54 T-72 (older variants) and 6 T-64.

So contrary to popular belief quite a lot of newer tanks but now we are starting to see older T-72As pop up indicating reserves are being tapped.

[ks_sachin]

On tank losses, of the 263 Russian tanks lost (open source info), 71 were built in the Soviet era (over 30 years old).
Only 73 Tanks lost were T-80, the remaining 190 were T-72.

So far documented

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... t.html?m=1

16 T-90A, 62 T-72 Obr. 2016 which are newer than T-90s, 74 T-80s, 31 T-72 B obr 1989 and B3, 54 T-72 (older variants) and 6 T-64.

So contrary to popular belief quite a lot of newer tanks but now we are starting to see older T-72As pop up indicating reserves are being tapped.

Tin cans are being prised open quite regularly.

[Anoop]

1. Is there any breakdown of tank losses (on either side) by mode of engagement i.e. tank on tank, minefield, artillery, ATGM and drone/heli/aircraft delivered missiles? My suspicion is that most Russian losses are due to ATGMs and drone delivered missiles. Don't know about the Ukrainian losses, but I guess they may be from missiles, artillery and ATGM too. I don't know if many tank on tank engagements have happened.

2. Which tank in the world will survive a direct top hit from a missile delivered by a drone? Or for that matter, an effective ATGM ambush? Will an Abrams, Merkava or Arjun?

3. If the answer to (2) is none, then the lessons for India from this conflicts are to establish effective air defense, anti drone soft and hard kill measures and effective use of mech infantry to screen own tank forces.

4. It is also unlikely that either China or Pakistan can have such a robust ISR capability over the Theater that sees large tank forces.

[Deans]

Because post 91 Russians haven't had the ability to replace older inferior equipment with what they would like to replace it with.

Second they are fighting with the holdings of the specific formations that are in the fight.

Plan's were to build 2300 Armata by now. But we know that Russia has lacked the resources to build those tanks.

In other words, they haven't had any choice in the matter.

They only have 20 Armata tanks in service - though the revised deadline was for 100 tanks to be delivered to a Guards Armoured division by the beginning of 2022. One reason the T-14 program was delayed was the decision to modernise the existing T-72/ 80 /90 tanks at a lower cost. The other was financial mismanagement of the tank factory.

I think a lot of the older tanks featuring in the losses are from the 41st Army. which is normally in Siberia (Central Military district) and considered a secondary formation. This army has made the slowest progress in front of Kharkov.

That said, I don't have a convincing answer to Sachin's question of why fight with tanks you know to be inferior.

[Deans]

On tank losses, of the 263 Russian tanks lost (open source info), 71 were built in the Soviet era (over 30 years old).
Only 73 Tanks lost were T-80, the remaining 190 were T-72.

So far documented

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... t.html?m=1

16 T-90A, 62 T-72 Obr. 2016 which are newer than T-90s, 74 T-80s, 31 T-72 B obr 1989 and B3, 54 T-72 (older variants) and 6 T-64.

So contrary to popular belief quite a lot of newer tanks but now we are starting to see older T-72As pop up indicating reserves are being tapped.

I hadn't seen this update, but it makes the same point. 16 T-90s lost, compared to 91 Obsolete T-72s.
The majority of T-72s are in storage, not in active service. In combat conditions they will tend to have more maintenance problems than tanks operated by an experienced crew.

[John]

Is there any breakdown of tank losses (on either side) by mode of engagement i.e. tank on tank, minefield, artillery, ATGM and drone/heli/aircraft delivered missiles? My suspicion is that most Russian losses are due to ATGMs and drone delivered missiles. Don't know about the Ukrainian losses, but I guess they may be from missiles, artillery and ATGM too. I don't know if many tank on tank engagements have happened.

Artillery seems to be taking a bigger role now in taking out tanks as both sides dig in. Yes there are couple engagements that have happened here is interesting one where 30mm cannon has been used to take out apc and Russian tank.

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1503 ... 82369?s=21

I do wish we have footage from Russian side on Kherson tank battle where Russians broke thru Kherson defenses at the start of battle unf we don’t.