enaiel wrote:Right, indiscriminate shelling on residential areas is a great way to keep civilian death low!sanjaykumar wrote:For all the destruction, the civilian death toll seems to be low.
Total devastation. Will have to be rebuilt like Grozny
Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Total devastation. Will have to be rebuilt like Grozny
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Is there a news agency that you would consider reliable besides the Russian State News Agency TASS?Mort Walker wrote:^^^The BBC is not a reliable source. Ukr forces, particularly the Azov battalions have used ambulances, hospitals, schools and other public areas as staging, retreat and ammo/weapons storage areas. Mariupol residents were given ample time to evacuate.
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/ukraine ... ay-2853552
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... vacuation/Russia Announces Ceasefire For Evacuation Of Civilians From Mariupol Today
A humanitarian corridor from Mariupol to Zaporizhzhia, via the Russian-controlled port of Berdiansk, would be opened from 10 am, the ministry said. March 31, 2022 10:55 am IST
So much for no residents being in Mariupol while it was being indiscriminately shelled because they had been given ample time to evacuateRed Cross: ‘Impossible’ to go ahead with Mariupol civilian evacuation
The Red Cross says the team it sent to facilitate the evacuation of thousands of civilians from Mariupol has been forced to turn around after conditions made it “impossible to proceed.”
1 April 2022, 7:48 pm
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
What is your suggestion when the AZOV battalions are hiding in homes , hospitals and medical facilities as well as sniping from balconies.
Let's take an example closer to home. A group of Paki terrorists in hiding in a house in Kashmir. every ingress is blocked that could lead to loss of many soldiers lives. there could or could not be some hostages . In Today's world, our army zaps the house with a couple of rockets and then moves in. Are you telling me that it's not the correct policy. Should IA wait it out for the next 10 days, or move in and leave 5-10 KIA for each home that we take back from the paki ********.
Let's take an example closer to home. A group of Paki terrorists in hiding in a house in Kashmir. every ingress is blocked that could lead to loss of many soldiers lives. there could or could not be some hostages . In Today's world, our army zaps the house with a couple of rockets and then moves in. Are you telling me that it's not the correct policy. Should IA wait it out for the next 10 days, or move in and leave 5-10 KIA for each home that we take back from the paki ********.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Our policy is not to zap the house with rockets if there is the remotest possibility of civilian deaths. We wait it out. That means that we know that terrorists will use human shields at times - our response is accordingly.dnivas wrote:What is your suggestion when the AZOV battalions are hiding in homes , hospitals and medical facilities as well as sniping from balconies.
Let's take an example closer to home. A group of Paki terrorists in hiding in a house in Kashmir. every ingress is blocked that could lead to loss of many soldiers lives. there could or could not be some hostages . In Today's world, our army zaps the house with a couple of rockets and then moves in. Are you telling me that it's not the correct policy. Should IA wait it out for the next 10 days, or move in and leave 5-10 KIA for each home that we take back from the paki ********.
The Russians failed to anticipate this kind of engagement amongst a number of other things - poor.
Also using rockets is diff to using long range arty and cruise mizziles.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
All I'm suggesting is that the statement being repeated by several BRF members that Russia is trying to avoid civilian causalities by not indiscriminately shelling cities with thousands of residents still living in them is provably false.dnivas wrote:What is your suggestion when the AZOV battalions are hiding in homes , hospitals and medical facilities as well as sniping from balconies.
Zapping a house filled with terrorists is the exact opposite of the indiscriminate shelling of an entire city filled with residents! A better analogy would be IA leveling entire Karachi to the ground with all it's civilian residents because PA took up sniping positions on residential roof tops. I hope we never stoop that low!Let's take an example closer to home. A group of Paki terrorists in hiding in a house in Kashmir. every ingress is blocked that could lead to loss of many soldiers lives. there could or could not be some hostages . In Today's world, our army zaps the house with a couple of rockets and then moves in. Are you telling me that it's not the correct policy. Should IA wait it out for the next 10 days, or move in and leave 5-10 KIA for each home that we take back from the paki ********.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
There is extensive damage but there was no other way to take Mariupol. Lots of footage of combat from Russian TV channels. You can see the tension on the soldiers faces, from building to building fighting. If the Russians wanted to, they could simply have surrounded the city and let artillery destroy it. There's plenty of coverage that shows one residential building untouched, while another (which is a fighting position) has been hit. Given the construction quality of most buildings in Russia/ Ukraine, a RPG, or tank round hitting an apartment, might bring down half the building (same will happen if a gas line in the building is hit).Mort Walker wrote:^^^The BBC is not a reliable source. Ukr forces, particularly the Azov battalions have used ambulances, hospitals, schools and other public areas as staging, retreat and ammo/weapons storage areas. Mariupol residents were given ample time to evacuate.
Last edited by Deans on 03 Apr 2022 09:22, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Claimed to be a Starstreak engagement - first one (if true) for this recently provided system.brar_w wrote:MANPAD engagement of a Mi-28 (photos and video):
https://defence-blog.com/ukraine-army-s ... elicopter/
Last edited by brar_w on 03 Apr 2022 10:16, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Is is provably false that Ukie soldiers and/or AZOVs do such things. BTW, Aren't you forgetting the 14000 Luhansk/Donetsk massacre of russian ethnicity from 2014 onwards.enaiel wrote: All I'm suggesting is that the statement being repeated by several BRF members that Russia is trying to avoid civilian causalities by not indiscriminately shelling cities with thousands of residents still living in them is provably false.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
They have a professional core that’s around a weak division in terms of numbers and conscripts after that. Some elements of the core army have fought with the Russians. I dint think much more was expected in terms of active help.brar_w wrote:How well trained and motivated is the Belorussian military? That might play into the calculus. Last thing you want is to flood a combat zone with thousands of troops and kit that can't pull its weight and just ends up being a drag on logistics, and other resources that they need for basic survival.ShivS wrote:The units around Kiev need Belorussian support. No longer sure that such support is as unequivocal and in the quantity needed..
Bigger issue is stress on the logistics needed to support the current Russian troops around Kiev and rotate new troops once the dumps and stores built up over the last 4/6 months run dry. We are seeing evidence of those issues. Troops around Kiev have been fighting for over a month and those other than crack units will need to be rotated, not just re supplied.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
The BTG as a unit of combat is also coming in for some hard questioning. It seems to disperse offensive elements in penny packets rather than provide the concentration needed for effective breakthroughs. An offensive punch of 10 tanks and 30/40 IFVs is not enough against a determined and smart enemy.
My complete admiration for the Ukrainian resolve and determination
My complete admiration for the Ukrainian resolve and determination
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
There is no doubt Zelensky is a very cocky leader. He also runs a media company, so understands the power of social messaging. Igt is probably his cockiness that has probably led to Ukrainian army believing that they can see through to the end of this.
Now you can interchangeably use the word brave/strong for cockiness. And the it would sound as right.
The proof of the pudding will lie in how far/ longer this war goes. If zelensky had fallen, it'd be cockiness. But if he gets a good deal, survices - he will be called brave. Somewhere in middle and you can call him either. That is where the situation is right now but if Russian army cant take kiev - that it is looking unlikely to. Cutting away Kiev was important that supplies dont reach Ukraine. But not likely rn.(I do still think though that Oil will be running out in Ukraine. Unlike ammo, oil supply is always visible. If Kiev runs out of oil then also its game over.)
Looking at the logistics issue; russian withdrawals - this will go onto negotiating table. RoI for russia from this war is very low, if this doesnt changes the national narrative within Russia. RoI would have been high only if the red army had done well. I have no wisdom to say where this will end, but not as good for Putin as it looked like when he started. Perhaps much worse.
Learning from this is that noisy democratic establishments lead to a more robust, field proven army.
Now you can interchangeably use the word brave/strong for cockiness. And the it would sound as right.
The proof of the pudding will lie in how far/ longer this war goes. If zelensky had fallen, it'd be cockiness. But if he gets a good deal, survices - he will be called brave. Somewhere in middle and you can call him either. That is where the situation is right now but if Russian army cant take kiev - that it is looking unlikely to. Cutting away Kiev was important that supplies dont reach Ukraine. But not likely rn.(I do still think though that Oil will be running out in Ukraine. Unlike ammo, oil supply is always visible. If Kiev runs out of oil then also its game over.)
Looking at the logistics issue; russian withdrawals - this will go onto negotiating table. RoI for russia from this war is very low, if this doesnt changes the national narrative within Russia. RoI would have been high only if the red army had done well. I have no wisdom to say where this will end, but not as good for Putin as it looked like when he started. Perhaps much worse.
Learning from this is that noisy democratic establishments lead to a more robust, field proven army.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
The Ukr forces 'invincible' tactics in Mariupol:
From the major ukrainian Telegram channel :
Легитимный, [04/02/2022 18:01]
[Forwarded from ЗеРада]
Donbas arc
The battle, preparations for which have been going on for several days, will become the largest and, unfortunately, the bloodiest in the 21st century.
The grouping of the Armed Forces of Ukraine that can be involved is about 90,000 people. Accordingly, Russia will pull up no less
In this century, there has never been a battle of such magnitude, and in Europe there has not been since World War II
In terms of the number of participants, the battle will be comparable to the Battle of Borodino. There were 120,000 each, but some did not participate.
In terms of historical significance, the future battle is hard to overestimate. It is on the outcome of this battle that the trajectory of the negotiation process and the future of both countries will depend.
The task of Ukraine is to inflict irreparable damage on the Russian Army, to bleed it as much as possible, to get new informational reasons for counteracting the Russian Federation, which will support the allies in their determination to help Ukraine, and in the Russian Federation will cause disappointment among the population.
The task of Russia is to encircle and destroy the Donbass grouping with the least losses for the Russian troops and infrastructure of Donbass.
Strengths of Ukraine: a motivated army, a large grouping, new weapons from the West, knowledge of the terrain, good defense of the eastern rampart from Severodonetsk to Avdiivka.
Strengths of the Russian Federation: air superiority, motivated parts of the L/DPR, strategic initiative, the ability to continuously launch missile strikes.
It was in preparation for the battle that Ukraine attacked the oil depot, which will supply the northern face of the arc, and the Russian Federation attacked the oil storage facility of the Kremenchug Oil Refinery, the closest place for shipping fuel to the Ukrainian group.
Ukraine is pulling up reserves as much as possible, the Dnipro-Pavlograd highway is crammed with equipment.
Russia is pulling everything to the maximum: troops are being transferred from the Kiev direction, roads are clogged with equipment even in the Voronezh region (second echelon).
The battle will begin as soon as the active phase of the cleansing of Mariupol ends
From the major ukrainian Telegram channel :
Легитимный, [04/02/2022 18:01]
[Forwarded from ЗеРада]
Donbas arc
The battle, preparations for which have been going on for several days, will become the largest and, unfortunately, the bloodiest in the 21st century.
The grouping of the Armed Forces of Ukraine that can be involved is about 90,000 people. Accordingly, Russia will pull up no less
In this century, there has never been a battle of such magnitude, and in Europe there has not been since World War II
In terms of the number of participants, the battle will be comparable to the Battle of Borodino. There were 120,000 each, but some did not participate.
In terms of historical significance, the future battle is hard to overestimate. It is on the outcome of this battle that the trajectory of the negotiation process and the future of both countries will depend.
The task of Ukraine is to inflict irreparable damage on the Russian Army, to bleed it as much as possible, to get new informational reasons for counteracting the Russian Federation, which will support the allies in their determination to help Ukraine, and in the Russian Federation will cause disappointment among the population.
The task of Russia is to encircle and destroy the Donbass grouping with the least losses for the Russian troops and infrastructure of Donbass.
Strengths of Ukraine: a motivated army, a large grouping, new weapons from the West, knowledge of the terrain, good defense of the eastern rampart from Severodonetsk to Avdiivka.
Strengths of the Russian Federation: air superiority, motivated parts of the L/DPR, strategic initiative, the ability to continuously launch missile strikes.
It was in preparation for the battle that Ukraine attacked the oil depot, which will supply the northern face of the arc, and the Russian Federation attacked the oil storage facility of the Kremenchug Oil Refinery, the closest place for shipping fuel to the Ukrainian group.
Ukraine is pulling up reserves as much as possible, the Dnipro-Pavlograd highway is crammed with equipment.
Russia is pulling everything to the maximum: troops are being transferred from the Kiev direction, roads are clogged with equipment even in the Voronezh region (second echelon).
The battle will begin as soon as the active phase of the cleansing of Mariupol ends
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S_Madhukar
- BRFite
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
The Russian military Telegram channel describes the change in tactics of Russian troops near Kharkov.
Старше Эдды, [04/03/2022 11:27]
Judging by purely subjective feelings, then throughout the Kharkov-Izyum direction, there is a complete reformatting of combat work. A month of war gave the necessary experience and now there is a monotonous grinding of enemy forces, with a minimum of our losses.
Yes, of course, there are losses, as well as failures. Suffice it to recall the shot Russian servicemen who were captured and the attack on Belgorod, but in general, the work of the army is now similar to the actions of a heavy blacksmith's hammer, which does not stop hitting the workpiece.
In general, the following happens: UAVs or other means of objective control fix the target, then a strike follows, after analyzing the events, that is, counting the corpses and destroyed enemy equipment. This work goes on day and night, without a break for lunch or rest. https://t.me/vysokygovorit/7152
Старше Эдды, [04/03/2022 11:27]
Judging by purely subjective feelings, then throughout the Kharkov-Izyum direction, there is a complete reformatting of combat work. A month of war gave the necessary experience and now there is a monotonous grinding of enemy forces, with a minimum of our losses.
Yes, of course, there are losses, as well as failures. Suffice it to recall the shot Russian servicemen who were captured and the attack on Belgorod, but in general, the work of the army is now similar to the actions of a heavy blacksmith's hammer, which does not stop hitting the workpiece.
In general, the following happens: UAVs or other means of objective control fix the target, then a strike follows, after analyzing the events, that is, counting the corpses and destroyed enemy equipment. This work goes on day and night, without a break for lunch or rest. https://t.me/vysokygovorit/7152
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Then the Ukrainians will seek to move the conflict zone into Russian or rebel territory- this form or warfare is awful for Civilian infrastructure and the population. It’s also been the historical strength of the Russian army.
This needs to end now.
This needs to end now.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Ukrainian Telegram channels admitted the fact of falsification and information fakes about civilians allegedly 'shot' by Russians in Bucha. The tactics of impudent Goebbels style lies did not work this time.
Легитимный, [04/03/2022 14:25]
#Layout
Now ours have received an excellent trump card from the Russians - settlements near Kiev, from where the Russian Federation itself has left.
We got it by agreement in Istanbul. In fact, the Russian negotiators themselves 'leaked' their own.
Now the scheme is simple, to create something “terrible”, because the world is used to destroyed houses and simply the death of civilians, now we need to show the “mass execution of civilians” (well, not by itself, but by the result). They are also preparing other pleasant 'surprises' for the Russians. Perhaps they will find “torture chambers, gas chambers”, etc., it all depends on the tasks set.
This is one of the tactics of war in our time.
Ours have long been implementing a strategy of maximum discrediting the RF Armed Forces, creating the image of them as 'terrorists' so that the locals do not make contact with them, and the degree of hatred between the peoples is growing.
They have already launched the message “Buchan massacre”, showing the bodies of civilians and stating that there is even a mass grave where all the executed civilians were thrown.
Western officials quickly picked up on this and are already announcing new sanctions against Russia.
There will be no new sanctions, the EU can no longer introduce anything cardinally powerful, but the essence of this information campaign is to create an image of a Russian soldier-terrorist in order to replace the “polite people” message that has ingrained in everyone.' https://t.me/legitimniy/11543
Легитимный, [04/03/2022 14:25]
#Layout
Now ours have received an excellent trump card from the Russians - settlements near Kiev, from where the Russian Federation itself has left.
We got it by agreement in Istanbul. In fact, the Russian negotiators themselves 'leaked' their own.
Now the scheme is simple, to create something “terrible”, because the world is used to destroyed houses and simply the death of civilians, now we need to show the “mass execution of civilians” (well, not by itself, but by the result). They are also preparing other pleasant 'surprises' for the Russians. Perhaps they will find “torture chambers, gas chambers”, etc., it all depends on the tasks set.
This is one of the tactics of war in our time.
Ours have long been implementing a strategy of maximum discrediting the RF Armed Forces, creating the image of them as 'terrorists' so that the locals do not make contact with them, and the degree of hatred between the peoples is growing.
They have already launched the message “Buchan massacre”, showing the bodies of civilians and stating that there is even a mass grave where all the executed civilians were thrown.
Western officials quickly picked up on this and are already announcing new sanctions against Russia.
There will be no new sanctions, the EU can no longer introduce anything cardinally powerful, but the essence of this information campaign is to create an image of a Russian soldier-terrorist in order to replace the “polite people” message that has ingrained in everyone.' https://t.me/legitimniy/11543
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Yes, could be starstreak. The way tail boom has been cutoff, doubt manpads could do it. Looks like the impact point was the junction of tail boom and fuselage.brar_w wrote:Claimed to be a Starstreak engagement - first one (if true) for this recently provided system.brar_w wrote:MANPAD engagement of a Mi-28 (photos and video):
https://defence-blog.com/ukraine-army-s ... elicopter/
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
I noted earlier It moves too fast for any manpad and it’s clearly one of tungsten darts hitting it, my main question is what happened to the other two darts. Looks like they either missed (not visible in video so missed by a lot) or failed to separate.arvin wrote:Yes, could be starstreak. The way tail boom has been cutoff, doubt manpads could do it. Looks like the impact point was the junction of tail boom and fuselage.brar_w wrote:
Claimed to be a Starstreak engagement - first one (if true) for this recently provided system.
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Mort Walker
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
This is why Russia will not succeed in Ukraine. The US military would not hesitate to wipe out areas if they were infested with paramilitary or regular military. They spared no quarter in Iraq. Since 2003 well over 200,000 civilians in Iraq were killed on conservative estimates. N^3 on this very forum, based on the tonnage of ordnance dropped in Iraq and bomber sorties, had estimated nearly 1 million civilian deaths. There are two different standards for white Christian and non-white non-Christian persons.Deans wrote:There is extensive damage but there was no other way to take Mariupol. Lots of footage of combat from Russian TV channels. You can see the tension on the soldiers faces, from building to building fighting. If the Russians wanted to, they could simply have surrounded the city and let artillery destroy it. There's plenty of coverage that shows one residential building untouched, while another (which is a fighting position) has been hit. Given the construction quality of most buildings in Russia/ Ukraine, a RPG, or tank round hitting an apartment, might bring down half the building (same will happen if a gas line in the building is hit).Mort Walker wrote:^^^The BBC is not a reliable source. Ukr forces, particularly the Azov battalions have used ambulances, hospitals, schools and other public areas as staging, retreat and ammo/weapons storage areas. Mariupol residents were given ample time to evacuate.
Russia should have engaged in a massive aerial bombing campaign in both Mariupol and Kyiv in the first month if they actually wanted to achieve their objective. Regardless, now they are going to be condemned for civilian casualties and continued crippling economic sanctions.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
First visuals of a destroyed Su-35S. Unknown reason for loss (several other images are also doing the rounds) but some other visual evidence suggests that pilot successfully ejected and was subsequently captured.
https://twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1 ... 9324754946
https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1 ... 0167662593
https://twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1 ... 9324754946
https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1 ... 0167662593
Single seater, without canards, equipped with the L-265M10P/R ECM wingtip pods and featuring heat shields on the stabilizers: the aircraft was quickly identified as an Su-35S Flanker-E multirole 4++ generation supermaneuverable jet. The first to be lost since the beginning of the Russian invasion in Ukraine.
LINK
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Mort ji has a point. If RA is taking losses and lot of hardship by being careful to avoid civilian casualties then they should milk it 100x with savvy media management and info war. If they aren't doing it and still getting blamed for real and fake incidents, then whats the need to be careful?
If they have any hope that because of this, the Ukranians will see them positively, thats another misreading. Ukranians are so deeply sold on "west is best, russ is puss" marketing that ain't gonna happen. Russian intelligence is either pretty bad or they dont dare to tell the truth to Putin.
If they have any hope that because of this, the Ukranians will see them positively, thats another misreading. Ukranians are so deeply sold on "west is best, russ is puss" marketing that ain't gonna happen. Russian intelligence is either pretty bad or they dont dare to tell the truth to Putin.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
This invasion of Ukraine has severely dented the reputation of Russia as a military superpower. Sorry, maybe invasion is too harsh a term. This liberation of Ukraine from Ukranians? Even Russia's enemies predicted that Russia would take Kiev in a week. But more than a month has passed, and yet here we are.
What I want to know is how, with Russia's overwhelming air superiority and superior air defences like S-400, were the Ukranians able to ambush attack their armoured columns on the way to Kiev, and halt thier advance? How does the IA prevent similar use of drones against our advancing armour, and how to do we similary use drones against advancing enemy armour? We've seen their effective use in the Armenia-Azerbaijan war, and now here too. I feel we have a lot of catching up to do in the art of drone warfare.
Warning, what follows is an article from the BBC, not known for it's unbiased reporting unlike the Russian State News Agency TASS:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60970818
What I want to know is how, with Russia's overwhelming air superiority and superior air defences like S-400, were the Ukranians able to ambush attack their armoured columns on the way to Kiev, and halt thier advance? How does the IA prevent similar use of drones against our advancing armour, and how to do we similary use drones against advancing enemy armour? We've seen their effective use in the Armenia-Azerbaijan war, and now here too. I feel we have a lot of catching up to do in the art of drone warfare.
Warning, what follows is an article from the BBC, not known for it's unbiased reporting unlike the Russian State News Agency TASS:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60970818
Elite troops from Russia's airborne forces rode into the town in armoured vehicles light enough to be carried by aircraft. They came from Hostomel airport, a few miles away, which had been attacked and seized by Russian paratroopers landed by helicopter on the first day of the invasion. Even then, there was fierce resistance from Ukrainian forces.
When the column moved through Bucha on the way to Kyiv, they had a harsh awakening.
The road is narrow and straight, an ideal place for an ambush. Witnesses said the Ukrainians attacked the convoy with Bayraktar attack drones bought from Turkey. Other neighbours said Ukrainian territorial defence volunteers were also in the area.
However they did it, the lead vehicles and the ones bringing up the rear were knocked out and imprisoned the others.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
If this stretches beyond another 3-4 weeks, we should begin seeing some heavier and more capable weapons being transferred to Ukraine beyond MANPADS and ATGMs which will still continue to flow. It would be interesting how those are employed and what comes of it.
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Mort Walker
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Anti ship missiles, tanks, APCs and possibly some aircraft are on the cards.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Soviet era tanks from Eastern European NATO countries and long-range SAM missile systems (S300) are already on their way.
Mariupol holding out for so long has given Ukranians crucial time to clear out the Northern and North-eastern territories and regroup for the fight in the East.
There are reports that Russia is not ready to feed the withdrawing troops into the Donbass region without reinforcing and regroupig them. But on the other hand, they must be under tremendous pressure to take advantage of the fall of Izium and press further South to complete the encirclement.
Mariupol holding out for so long has given Ukranians crucial time to clear out the Northern and North-eastern territories and regroup for the fight in the East.
There are reports that Russia is not ready to feed the withdrawing troops into the Donbass region without reinforcing and regroupig them. But on the other hand, they must be under tremendous pressure to take advantage of the fall of Izium and press further South to complete the encirclement.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Izium was captured by Russia a week ago but Ukr didn’t confirm it till yesterday.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Donetsk and Luhansk provinces, which are seeing the heaviest fighting, have a Russian majority (though its probably a large minority in the areas not occupied by the rebels pre-war). That is the compulsion for them to avoid civilian casualties. Kharkov city, which has a sizable Russian minority, is now taking a beating from Russian artillery. There is as yet no need for them to attack other big cities, because their ground forces are in no position to lay siege and it would be seen as a wonton attack on civilians, not dictated by operational necessity.Cyrano wrote:Mort ji has a point. If RA is taking losses and lot of hardship by being careful to avoid civilian casualties then they should milk it 100x with savvy media management and info war. If they aren't doing it and still getting blamed for real and fake incidents, then whats the need to be careful?
If they have any hope that because of this, the Ukranians will see them positively, thats another misreading. Ukranians are so deeply sold on "west is best, russ is puss" marketing that ain't gonna happen. Russian intelligence is either pretty bad or they dont dare to tell the truth to Putin.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Intriguing. It means that the DRFM based Knirti wing tip pods were not effective against whatever missile hit it. The twitter post says that given that it was carrying the wing tip mounted Knirti pods plus a KH-31P variant that it was on a SEAD mission. If it was a SAM, I wonder what kind of SAM it was that got that fighter? From the Russian perspective this is not good, the SU-35S with the L-265M10P is the latest and best that they have I think....brar_w wrote:First visuals of a destroyed Su-35S. Unknown reason for loss (several other images are also doing the rounds) but some other visual evidence suggests that pilot successfully ejected and was subsequently captured.
https://twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1 ... 9324754946
https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1 ... 0167662593
Single seater, without canards, equipped with the L-265M10P/R ECM wingtip pods and featuring heat shields on the stabilizers: the aircraft was quickly identified as an Su-35S Flanker-E multirole 4++ generation supermaneuverable jet. The first to be lost since the beginning of the Russian invasion in Ukraine.
LINK
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Cain Marko
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
One thing I don't get is, how do all these weapons supplies get through? I thought the Russians had full control of transport corridors in and out of major pockets of resistance by now? How is NATO managing to get the maal through?
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Mort Walker
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Rail, road, and natural gas network across Ukr are still working along with many bridges. Weapons coming primarily from Poland to the west. Ru really haven’t hit Lviv in the west and surrounding areas. They wanted refugees to get out. Lviv and rail/road links around it should have been leveled over 2 weeks ago, but it seems Ru don’t have the capacity for it.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
As the SU-35s downing has shown, Russia does not have air supremacy i.e. While the Ukrainan airforce is not a threat, Russia has been unable to defeat the threat posed by SAMs. So it cannot have aircraft in the air over western Ukraine monitoring arms re-supply convoys coming in from the Polish border. The long range strikes conducted into Western Ukraine via cruise missiles such as the KH-101/55/555/65 can be used only against static targets. Plus I can't think of any Russian PGM which can emulate the US SDB-II with all weather moving targeting capability which would be ideal for road convoys.Cain Marko wrote:One thing I don't get is, how do all these weapons supplies get through? I thought the Russians had full control of transport corridors in and out of major pockets of resistance by now? How is NATO managing to get the maal through?
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
It is extremely difficult to stop convoys of relatively smallish weapons and munitions coming over from Poland, Romania etc. There will be decoying present and you would have to have persistent ISR and the ability to hit ( via air since you don’t have ground troops) moving targets. I don’t see them putting a sizable dent in any arms transfer anytime soon if ever without occupying most of western Ukraine.Cain Marko wrote:One thing I don't get is, how do all these weapons supplies get through? I thought the Russians had full control of transport corridors in and out of major pockets of resistance by now? How is NATO managing to get the maal through?
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Russians don’t run many sorties they themselves claim at max around 300 per day to put that into perspective IAF avg around 100+ day in area as small as Kargil in 99’ IIRC. To control Ukraine with that little amount of sorties is a very tough task.Cain Marko wrote:One thing I don't get is, how do all these weapons supplies get through? I thought the Russians had full control of transport corridors in and out of major pockets of resistance by now? How is NATO managing to get the maal through?
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sohamn
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
I ams surprised to see how effective the S-300 SAMs are against 4.5 gen high flying aircrafts. I am even more surprised to see that Russia hardly have any counter against their previous generation weapons, not only they are not able to neutralize these weapons but also their detection / suppression systems are not mature enough to take out these legacy weapon systems.
I also read some commentary that Russian aircrafts have very minimal 360 deg situational awareness compared to their western counterparts due to their blitz doctrine but for Russia the air war has turned into a nightmare.
I also read some commentary that Russian aircrafts have very minimal 360 deg situational awareness compared to their western counterparts due to their blitz doctrine but for Russia the air war has turned into a nightmare.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Can be a manpad, can be an optically guided SAM, can be AAA, can be a pop up RF SAM which popped up from beyond pod coverage. Endless possibilities which is why SEAD is the worst risk there is.ldev wrote:Intriguing. It means that the DRFM based Knirti wing tip pods were not effective against whatever missile hit it. The twitter post says that given that it was carrying the wing tip mounted Knirti pods plus a KH-31P variant that it was on a SEAD mission. If it was a SAM, I wonder what kind of SAM it was that got that fighter? From the Russian perspective this is not good, the SU-35S with the L-265M10P is the latest and best that they have I think....brar_w wrote:First visuals of a destroyed Su-35S. Unknown reason for loss (several other images are also doing the rounds) but some other visual evidence suggests that pilot successfully ejected and was subsequently captured.
https://twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1 ... 9324754946
https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1 ... 0167662593
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
Ukranian Buk and Strela have also shot down planes and keep in mind Ukr also operates older version of S-300 PT/PS & Buk. What’s interesting is Azerbaijan was able to use Israeli drones (in conjunction with TB.2) to eliminate Armenian SAM incl S-300 PS.sohamn wrote:I ams surprised to see how effective the S-300 SAMs are against 4.5 gen high flying aircrafts. I am even more surprised to see that Russia hardly have any counter against their previous generation weapons, not only they are not able to neutralize these weapons but also their detection / suppression systems are not mature enough to take out these legacy weapon systems.
I also read some commentary that Russian aircrafts have very minimal 360 deg situational awareness compared to their western counterparts due to their blitz doctrine but for Russia the air war has turned into a nightmare.
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sohamn
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
I remember reading that Azerbaijan were using drones and unmanned aircraft to detect S300 sites and then neutralize it with kamikaze or TB2 drones.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
There is concealment, deception, decoying and a whole host of other passive and active means that you can employ to counter ISR and counter SEAD. Perhaps the Ukrainians are just better at that then the Armenians.
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
So far the ones I seen that were taken out seem to be out in the open
https://twitter.com/sotiridi/status/150 ... 3NZf-eJqUg
https://twitter.com/sotiridi/status/150 ... 3NZf-eJqUg
Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics
The one event which has changed my opinion of Russia's performance, is the record of its 1st Guards Tank Army, operating to the East of Kiev (Sumy-Cherniv region). This is supposedly Russia's most elite formation - in its old Avatar in WW2, it fought constantly from Stalingrad to Berlin, without being defeated and under legendary commanders. Its units are normally stationed near Moscow and are believed to get the first choice of equipment and officers.
In the current fighting, its divisions have taken high casualties. More disturbing, for an elite formation, it has a high number of abandoned tanks, pointing to either poor maintenance, or scared crews abandoning them. Their withdrawal from Kiev seems to be a shambles. I don't think they planned on giving up as much (hard fought) ground as they had.
In the current fighting, its divisions have taken high casualties. More disturbing, for an elite formation, it has a high number of abandoned tanks, pointing to either poor maintenance, or scared crews abandoning them. Their withdrawal from Kiev seems to be a shambles. I don't think they planned on giving up as much (hard fought) ground as they had.